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Hey, these guys lost 111 games last year! This will be a piece of cake! Right?




Maybe not. Houston comes into this three game set against the Blue Jays with a respectable 3-4 record (exactly the same as Toronto). Nobody should expect these guys to have a winning record by seasons end, but with some progress from their young pitchers and an improved offense around Altuve, Fowler and Jason Castro, it's entirely reasonable they might not lose 100 games again. Anyhow, these aren't going to be three automatic wins that many people will expect, but Toronto taking anything less than 2 of 3 would be a big disappointment. They're the much, much better team.

Pitching Matchups

Tuesday: Brett Oberholtzer (0-1, 4.76) (*2013: 4-5, 2.76) v. Mark Buehrle (1-0, 0.00) (*2013: 12-10, 4.15)
Wednesday: Lucas Harrell (0-1, 15.00) (*2013: 6-17, 5.86) v. Brandon Morrow (0-1, 7.20) (*2013: 2-3, 5.83)
Thursday: Dallas Keuchel (0-1, 7.20) (*2013: 6-10, 5.15) v. Dustin McGowan (0-1, 13.50) (*2013: 0-0, 2.45 *all relief*)

Player Sure to Be a Thorn on the Side of the Blue Jays

Dexter Fowler. He's off to a blazing start to the year (6-12, 2B, 3B, HR) so neutralizing him will be key to stopping the otherwise limited Astro attack.

Peculiar Stat to Watch

The Astros currently lead the American League in home runs with 9. Considering they've only scored 20 total runs, it's definitely one of those quirky, flukey things you see the first few weeks of the season. Still, something Toronto hurlers should be looking to erase like the memory of a bad environmental science exam.

Anyhow, this looks like a good series for McGowan and Morrow to get on track and for the bats to wake up a bit. Let's hope so because the schedule isn't going to get any easier after this.



Game Threads: Astros At Blue Jays | 133 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
finch - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#284396) #
For the Blue Jays to have a chance at the playoffs, they need to beat up on these teams and play their division at 500 or slightly better. If they do not sweep this series, I will be disappointed however I'll be satisfied with a 2-1 record.
uglyone - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 01:00 PM EDT (#284399) #
No excuses here. Not only are the astros not good, but we avoid their only two passable SP this series, too.

I think the jays have played pretty well so far despite their record, but losing to the astros will put a serious damper on even that mild enthusiasm.
dan gordon - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#284402) #
What win percentage would the Jays have if they played only Houston - .600? .650? .700? Even at a .700 win percentage the chance of a sweep isn't high. Just multiply it out to get the odds: .7 x .7 x .7 = .34, or a 34% chance of a sweep. Even if you thought they'd play .800 ball, implying the Astros would play .200 ball, which is a bit silly, the chance of a sweep is only 51%.
Chuck - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#284403) #
Just multiply it out to get the odds: .7 x .7 x .7 = .34, or a 34% chance of a sweep.

Probabilities are fascinating, aren't they? It really doesn't take much math for the seemingly plausible idea of a 3-game sweep to ultimately sound unlikely.

And it's the nature of probabilities that leads to Warren Buffet confidently offering up $1B for a perfect bracket. When math is applied, the seemingly highly unlikely (a perfect bracket) is reduced to rubble and is actually a near impossibility.

Mike Green - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#284404) #
And realistically, the probability of the Jays winning each game is a lot less than .7.  If it is .6, say, the chances of them winning the series are only 65%.  If it is .7, the chances of them winning the series are only 78%. 

This is a nice opportunity for Morrow and McGowan to pitch 5 or 6 good innings (each).  You've got to start somewhere.

christaylor - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 03:41 PM EDT (#284405) #
Just to play devil's advocate for a second -- it is completely psychologically reasonable to be disappointed by improbable events not occurring.

For example, if I were ever inclined to spend money on a lottery ticket, I'd be disappointed that I didn't win even knowing that it is a 1 in 14 million shot or so...
Chuck - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 04:05 PM EDT (#284406) #
it is completely psychologically reasonable to be disappointed by improbable events not occurring.

No arguing that. That's the bloody human condition. Ask any Leaf fan (I am not one).

Richard S.S. - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 05:11 PM EDT (#284411) #
This will help Buehrle's Cy Young quest. It will be interesting to see if Morrow has learned anything from Thursday in Tampa. He pitched well enough, just not as good as he's capable of being. McGowan will need to throw at least 85 pitches this outing, so he needs to be a little less obvious and a little more consistent.

Hopefully we get better offense a more than a few struggling players. Generally this offense has been good enough to steal a game or two instead of sucking.
92-93 - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 05:55 PM EDT (#284413) #
The Jays better wake up the bats against this mediocre crop of Astros arms. Encarnacion, Rasmus, and Lawrie need to start having better ABs for this to be a good offense considering how poor the middle infield is offensively.
vw_fan17 - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 07:19 PM EDT (#284416) #
Ask any Leaf fan (I am not one).

Just had to rub it in, didn't ya? :-)

My level of "Leafs happiness" this year has see-sawed more than most seasons I can recall.. And dang, they won 2/3 in California, just not the game I went to (again!). :-(
finch - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#284417) #
Lind's unwillingness to bunt while facing a dramatic shift is frustrating. Your 2 big bats are behind you and your primary goal hitting in the two spot is either move the runner along or get on base for the 3rd and 4th hitters gosh darn it.
uglyone - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#284418) #
maicer is a whole new player this year, offensively and defensively.

No need for any more of this goins crap, thankfully
greenfrog - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 08:19 PM EDT (#284419) #
Maicer has had a great start.

Lawrie, on the other hand, looks a mess at the plate. I'm worried he might be going the way of Travis Snider (talented prospect who experimented a lot at the plate and could never really put it together).
Mike Green - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 08:43 PM EDT (#284420) #
On the radio broadcast, Wilner reported on Gibbons' rationale for putting Lind in the lineup and batting second (!) against a left-hander- that Oberholtzer has reverse splits.  I thought that I would do some fact-checking, and the results suggest that Gibbons does need to learn a little about the statistics.  Oberholtzer does have a reverse split in 64 PAs against LHH (130 vs RHH) in the major leagues, but it's all courtesy of a BABIP 100 point higher against LHH.  In the minor leagues, in a sample size almost 10 times larger, he has typical splits with better K%, W%, HR%, LD%, GB% and, BABIP against LHHs. 

Lind should not be in the lineup, let alone batting second.
Mike Green - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 08:46 PM EDT (#284421) #
And Buck repeats it, with the sample size caveat.  Lind promptly strikes out.
John Northey - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#284422) #
Sigh... Lind vs a LHP should be grounds for immediate dismissal especially when you have Kratz and Sierra on the bench - if they won't be used in this situation when will they?  To base a decision on 64 PA (!) is just plain dumb unless you have a crazy extreme result.  Someone in the Jays front office should sit down with Gibbons and tell him how stats work.  Also to point out that Lind is so horrid vs LHP that even a true reverse split pitcher would eat him up.
Chuck - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 10:07 PM EDT (#284423) #
Lind should not be in the lineup, let alone batting second.

Zaun is intransigent on the subject. Lind should be in the lineup every day. There is no basis for his hard-headedness on the subject, yet he is unrelenting.

uglyone - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 10:14 PM EDT (#284424) #
Decent win.

Even though buehrle wasn't sharp, still think gibby went to the pen too early. They still weren't hitting anything hard off of buehrle, and now gibby used his 4 best available relievers in game 1.

Nice to see navarro get some hits and EE have a bunch of good at bats..... would be nice if rasmus and lawrie joined the party sometime soon.
scottt - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 10:15 PM EDT (#284425) #
Lind should get in the lineup as soon as the lefty is gone.

It's April. Some players slumps while others get hot.

hypobole - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 10:36 PM EDT (#284426) #
May have already been mentioned, but Melky has already surpassed last years HR total.
greenfrog - Tuesday, April 08 2014 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#284427) #
Matt Moore has sustained a left elbow injury. That could be tough for the Rays.

Meanwhile, Archer just had another excellent start (7 shutout innings). His ERA is 1.38.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 12:09 AM EDT (#284431) #
Tampa gets lucky with 2-2 verses Toronto, as the Offense wasn't very good. A hotter Offense and they might not be lucky. New York got lucky with Sabathia' start, as better offense wins that game for Toronto. Despite all the unfavorable issues affecting this team, they are 4-4 and in the hunt, not 6-2 leading the Division.
Eephus - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 12:30 AM EDT (#284432) #
According to Sportsnet, they've juggled the rotation a bit. Dickey now starts Thursday, McGowan in Baltimore on Friday.

Batting Lind 2nd is just nuts even if its a righty. He doesn't have the wheels.

92-93 - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 02:32 AM EDT (#284433) #
I'd care about Lind facing a LHP if the replacement options weren't Kratz and Sierra. Might as well keep him sharp for when he faces RHP.
scottt - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 05:54 AM EDT (#284434) #
Except Lind seems more prone to backaches from playing every day than to loss of focus for coming into the game in the 6th.
Dave Till - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 06:50 AM EDT (#284437) #
If someone had told me before the start of the season that the following would happen:
  • Reyes would be hurt yet again
  • Janssen would be hurt too
  • EE would hit no home runs
  • McGowan and Morrow would be ineffective
  • Lawrie, Rasmus, and the middle infielders wouldn't hit at all
  • The first four games of the year would be at Tampa Bay
  • The next three would be against the Yankees

...my glum off-season prediction would have been that the Jays would be 1-7 right now. Instead, they're 4-4. Perhaps I'm being far too dewy-eyed optimistic about this, but I think they're doing rather well. (It's far better than being swept at home by the Milwaukee Brewers, as has happened to the Red Sox.) It's fairly obvious what has gone well:

  • Melky. I think what is happening is that the "book" on him is out of date - he's healthy now, so he's crushing pitches that used to be his weakness.
  • Jose is back in all his glory.
  • The bullpen has been awesome. Okay, Santos has been like a high-wire artist working in a wind without a net, but he's made it to the other side so far.
  • The infield defense has been great. Diaz and Goins can't hit, but they can field. Buehrle, in particular, is grateful for this.

The weak spot is about what we expected it would be: the starting pitching looks shaky. I fear that it will do the team in eventually, if not sooner. But at least the Jays don't horribly suck, which was my fear. We might be able to have hope until at least Victoria Day. Play ball!


Original Ryan - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 07:28 AM EDT (#284438) #
Tampa gets lucky with 2-2 verses Toronto, as the Offense wasn't very good. A hotter Offense and they might not be lucky.

The Rays scored a total of 16 runs in their two wins that series. Unless you think the Blue Jays' offence should average 10 runs per game, the cold offence wasn't the only issue.

Also, a person could easily argue that the Blue Jays were lucky to be 2-2 as the Rays weren't able to do anything against Hutchison and Buehrle. It works both ways. You're being very selective in what you attribute to "luck."

Mike Green - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 08:15 AM EDT (#284439) #
Thanks, scottt.  Watching Lind bat against LHP is painful for me.  You watch him flail with his body out of sync at least once or twice a game and you know that the next recurrence of back pain will be coming soon.  If Gibbons doesn't have confidence in Kratz doing better against LHP than Lind, Kratz ought to be sent down and Francisco called up.  Personally, I am completely confident that Kratz would be better.

Anyways, that doesn't seem to be Gibbons' issue.  He apparently didn't get the statistics and wanted to "ride the hot hand", even though this has been tried and tried without success.
greenfrog - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 08:27 AM EDT (#284440) #
The alternative explanation is that the front office and/or coaching staff advised Gibbons that Oberholtzer has strong reverse splits and that it would make sense to insert Lind in the lineup. Which doesn't reflect well on the FO / coaching staff.

While it isn't the highest priority, I would still love to see Morales on the roster. Not only would he help deepen the lineup, he would help keep Lind/EE/Bautista/Melky healthy, as there would be less pressure to run all of them out there every day.
rfan8 - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 09:08 AM EDT (#284441) #

92-93, I agree, Lawrie and Rasmus look lost up there. What happened to Lawrie's bat speed? When he came up, I remember some of the 'experts' raving about how quick his bat was. It looks slower than when he first came up, when he was crushing line drives off the left field wall, and now every swing he makes looks slow and defensive (is there a site that measures swing speed?). I know he's getting pitched to differently but that shouldn't have impacted his swing to this extent.
Parker - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 09:08 AM EDT (#284442) #
Zaun is intransigent on the subject. Lind should be in the lineup every day. There is no basis for his hard-headedness on the subject, yet he is unrelenting.

His basis is that if Lind doesn't see any lefties, how is he going to learn to hit them better?

Sportsnet clearly needs a guy like Zaun; he isn't afraid to ask the tough questions.
Chuck - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 09:37 AM EDT (#284443) #
In his career 861 PA vs LHP, Lind's line is 218/262/341. It seems reasonable to conclude that at age 30, he probably will never be able to learn to hit LHP. That ship has sailed.

I don't know why Zaun believes that it's just a matter of time for Lind, if only he just gets enough playing time against LHP. Many LHBs in history never learned to hit LHP. This is not unprecedented.

uglyone - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#284446) #
In fact, the only jays that have worse career numbers than Lind vs. LHP are thole and goins - two guys who are in the league only due to their gloves, and who probably shouldn't be in the league at all.

Rasmus is the next worst but is still a good 40pts of ops better than lind over their careers.
Chuck - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 10:59 AM EDT (#284448) #
Rasmus is the next worst but is still a good 40pts of ops better than lind over their careers.

And Rasmus is the team's best center fielder. He's not in the lineup just for his bat like Lind is.

Ryan Day - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#284449) #
If you'd like a kick in the teeth, Emilio Bonifacio is currently leading the majors in BA and SB, and is second in OBP.

He's unlikely to be sitting in that position by the end of the month (well, possibly steals), but c'mon.
Chuck - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 11:40 AM EDT (#284450) #
Emilio Bonifacio is currently leading the majors...

Since leaving Toronto late last year, he has logged 205 PAs with KC and the Cubs. His line: 324/400/387, 21-2 SB.

On a related note, with Infante out, KC is now playing a man at 2B who has never before played the position.

Hodgie - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#284452) #
Joe Maddon previously employs as many right-handed hitters as possible against Shaun Marcum (fastball + change-up profile) despite normal career platoon splits and he is innovative and fawned over for thinking outside of the box. Gibbons inserts Lind against Oberholtzer (fastball + change-up profile) citing his (albeit small) reverse platoon splits and he or the front office don't understand statistics. Not sure what to make of this but I for one have been very happy with the way Gibbons has managed the team to start the season.

Mike Green - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 12:05 PM EDT (#284453) #
The slash line tells one story, but the three true outcomes comparison between his time in TO and his time since is perhaps more illuminating:

TO               - 282 PA, 3 HR, 13 W, 66K
post TO      - 214 PA, 0 HR, 20 W, 41K

My subjective observation that Bonifacio seems to be taking a shorter slash at the ball since he left TO would be consistent with these statistics.  He is the type of player who can succeed with little power, and it looks like there was some emphasis on him driving the ball in Toronto.  That may have been a mistake.  It also looked to me like he was not right at all at the start of the season, and the club pushed him into a starting role. 


greenfrog - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#284454) #
Oberholtzer (fastball + change-up profile)

Oberholtzer pitch type (career): FB 61.1%, CB 18.2%, CH 20.7%.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=3855&position=P#pitchtype
Mike Green - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 12:23 PM EDT (#284455) #
Joe Maddon previously employs as many right-handed hitters as possible against Shaun Marcum (fastball + change-up profile) despite normal career platoon splits and he is innovative and fawned over for thinking outside of the box. Gibbons inserts Lind against Oberholtzer (fastball + change-up profile) citing his (albeit small) reverse platoon splits and he or the front office don't understand statistics. Not sure what to make of this but I for one have been very happy with the way Gibbons has managed the team to start the season.

I don't remember Maddon doing this.  I remember him being the first to correctly recognize that Ricky Romero had real reverse splits and adapting his lineup accordingly.  I checked all 3 of Marcum's appearances against the Rays in 2010, Marcum's last year here.  Crawford made all 3 starts, Pena made 2, Brignac made 2 (over Jason Bartlett who was a better hitter), Navarro got the catching gigs (rather than Shoppach), Hawpe was acquired later in the year and got a start against Marcum in his only opportunity.  I don't see evidence that Maddon was attempting to employ as many RHHs against Marcum as possible. 

The point of my comment is that to throw out a minor league sample 10 times larger than a major league sample regarding platoon splits is ridiculous (and in this particular case, possibly dangerous given Lind's history of back injury).  It's 2014 and managers ought to have this information at their fingertips. 
Hodgie - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#284456) #
Mike, I don't have time at the moment to go back and bring up each game as I pretend to get at least a little work done, but for some anecdotal evidence give this article a quick read - if having switch hitters bat right-handed against Marcum is not a concerted effort to tilt the line-up to the right I don't know what is.

My point was that managers like Maddon are constantly glamorized in these parts for their ability to avoid dogma and approach the game in different ways. The moment that Gibbons does something similar he is castigated for it. Whether in the end it was the correct move is certainly debatable, what I like is that Gibbons appears to be trying to exploit even small advantages that he perceives are available this season. The CYA move would have been to sit the lefties sighting fluky sample sizes and regression to the mean...

An honest question to finish, how strong is the correlation between MiLB and MLB platoon splits for pitchers?

whiterasta80 - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#284457) #
As someone who is constantly scouring the fantasy waiver wire in the early season I can tell you that Emilio Bonifacio has done this early season juggernaut thing before. It didn't last.
uglyone - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#284458) #
The only caveat i'll give to gibby here is that the jays have faced an unusally high load of LHP to start the year, with 5 of their first 10gms vs. Lefties.....so this might have been more to just keep lind swinging the bat, up against the one LHP he'd most likely be able to hit, in a game where maybe gibby felt he could afford to gamble a bit.

And even if the kid's mlb splits were small sample and not in line with his larger milb sample, that doesn't mean that obie wasn't having a real issue vs. lhb at the mlb level.

But of course, none of that explains why he was hitting second.
uglyone - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#284460) #
And i hope nobody's actually pining for bonifacio.

Though his hot start IS proof of one thing at least - and that's just how little went right for the jays last year. They didn't even get the benefit of many of these fluke hot streaks from bad players.

Hodgie - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#284461) #
Oberholtzer pitch type (career): FB 61.1%, CB 18.2%, CH 20.7%.

Oberholtzer pitch values (runs above average - career) : FB 0.2, CB 0.0, CH 4.1

Chuck - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#284462) #
And i hope nobody's actually pining for bonifacio.

Not me. I believe he's better than he showed in Toronto, but ultimately, probably not very good at all. At least not deserving to be a starter.

Mike Green - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 02:13 PM EDT (#284463) #
Thanks for the link, Hodgie.  I did not know that Navarro and Zobrist batted right-handed against Marcum.  It makes sense for Navarro who has hit much better over his career right-handed than left-handed.  For Zobrist, it is a bit strange as he is pretty much the same from either side.  In both cases, though, I imagine that this is essentially a player's decision. 

Anyways, the opposition to playing Lind vs. LHPs is of long-standing.  Some people pointed out in the off-season that Lind might earn his contract if he doesn't face LHPs...
whiterasta80 - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 02:27 PM EDT (#284464) #
In my personal opinion you have to be digging pretty hard into some pretty useless statistics to find a rationale for playing Lind against any lefthander. This is a classic example of that (and yes, Maddon uses some questionable stats from time to time too).

In this particular case however it is just mind boggling that Lind plays when you consider his winning combination of:

a) can't withstand the rigours of 162 game season
b) can't hit a left handed pitch if it were thrown underhand
c) can't outrun or out-defend the 2013 version of Melky Cabrera.

Why oh why does Juan Francisco have to be a lefty...
Hodgie - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 03:11 PM EDT (#284465) #
In my personal opinion you have to be digging pretty hard into some pretty useless statistics to find a rationale for playing Lind against any lefthander.

If that were the case, the supposition being that Gibbons was trying to find a way to get Lind into the game, then I would whole-heartedly agree. The fact that Lind has hardly played at all against LHP to start the season seems to suggest otherwise.

At the macro level, Lind facing LHP is bad in almost every conceivable way. At the micro level, if the team believes there is an advantage that might be exploited I am willing to extend them that short length of rope.

Charlie - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#284466) #
Even if Bonifacio is hot at the plate to start the season he still has to play in the field. I will never forget some of the breathtakingly bad defence he displayed last April/May. Having also picked him up several times off the fantasy waiver wire I had a picture in my mind of the player he was based on his BA and SB stats. Once I saw him in person I realized he was in no way that player. It reaffirmed to me that, as much as stats matter, the "eye test" still has some importance too.
Gerry - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#284467) #
The Jays have promoted Neil Wagner and demoted Marcus Walden. Does Walden qualify as a big leaguer, given that he never pitched in a game?
Chuck - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#284468) #
Does Walden qualify as a big leaguer, given that he never pitched in a game?

The sound of one hand clapping?

MatO - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#284469) #
"Jimmy. Did I ever tell you about the time I was on a major league roster?"
John Northey - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#284470) #
I wonder how many guys have been like that for the Jays - called up but never played a ML game.  Not short term ones, but guys for whom it was their first ever callup and the manager never found a way to get him even a Moonlight Graham moment. 

Ones I can recall are Geronimo Berroa in 1987 (called up for September but never got to play - finally got his first shot in Atlanta in '89 and played in Toronto in 1999), Brian Jeroloman in 2011 I think (sat on bench for September, has yet to reach majors again), and now Marcus Walden.
Original Ryan - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 05:11 PM EDT (#284471) #
Roberto Duran was on the active roster briefly in 1996 but never appeared in a game.
Mike Green - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 05:17 PM EDT (#284472) #
The Call to the Show is a pretty significant aspect of becoming a "big-leaguer".  WWBVDZS? (What would Bill Van der Zalm say?)  One-hand clapping is good enough, now smile!
Four Seamer - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 05:48 PM EDT (#284473) #
He got himself a big league pay cheque (or part of one), at least.
greenfrog - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 05:57 PM EDT (#284474) #
I actually like the job that Gibbons has done so far this year (I hope that the starters give him some innings, though, so that Loup/Delabar/Cecil/Santos/Janssen don't burn out). I would also be fine with Lind getting zero PAs against LHP for the rest of the year.
scottt - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#284475) #
If the batter has severe splits like Lind does, the pitcher splits shouldn't matter.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#284476) #
Walden down, Wagner up.
The fourth Tampa Game was 4-2 until the RF had an adventure. The Offense goes cold at the worst times
In the Sabathia Start, Toronto had the tying run at the plate in the 6th and the winning run at the plate in the 8th. Two run difference should not be insurmountable by this Offense.
Hodgie - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 07:37 PM EDT (#284477) #
Morrow is dealing, 5K on 24 pitches through 2IP.
Parker - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 08:10 PM EDT (#284478) #
Just for the record, I don't think Lind should ever again face a lefty. I also think Zain should be immediately dismissed. I thought the sarcasm was obvious, but evidently it was not.
greenfrog - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 08:16 PM EDT (#284479) #
Morrow looks great so far. Somewhat soft lineup, but he's dealing.
John Northey - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#284480) #
Not just a big league pay cheque but a lifetime pension too.  Anyone who is on the 25 man roster (or September roster) for even one day gets it. Not sure how much, but after 10 years you get the maximum ($100k a year it seems).

Hrm... checking online I just noticed that one site says it takes 43 days for the cash ($34k per year for life once you reach age 62), but one day gets you medical benefits which, in the US, could be worth a lot more. That was in 2010 though and every negotiation the players seem to improve this one element.   While looking I also found this site with info about the minor league plan which is fairly pathetic (no shock) where it is pretty hard to even get $100 a month once you turn 65.  Of course, even that is better than the vast majority of us can ever hope for.
uglyone - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 09:33 PM EDT (#284481) #
Gibby's gotta let the SP start pushing 100 pitches at least. He's gonna kill the bullpen if he keeps this up.
Mike Green - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#284482) #
86 pitches in the 2nd outing of the year is OK in my books.  Morrow faded in the 6th inning; it was the perfect time to pull him. 

Brett Lawrie's 1st homer of the year- now there's a relief.

uglyone - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#284484) #
Well third time thru the meat of the order will often result in a "fade", doesn't mean you pull him at the first sign of trouble.

But anyways...Navarro stealing a base is all kinds of awesome, as was the standing O he got for it, as was the silent treatment given to lawrie after that hr...broken only be melky doing a lawrie impression right back at him.

This team is starting to make me.....smile.

scottt - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#284485) #
Wagner was not called up to rest. Don't forget the pen can rest on Monday again.
uglyone - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 09:58 PM EDT (#284486) #
Wagner looks like he did last year. Nasty.

Between him and happ and redmond, there's zero reason for rogers to be on this team.
greenfrog - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 10:06 PM EDT (#284487) #
Lawrie muscled that ball impressively, but he still doesn't look very hitterish up there. It's early, of course. If he can ever unlock his natural talent, watch out.
ayjackson - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 10:30 PM EDT (#284489) #
Except Rogers is probably much better than Happ. Is there a reason why Happ should be in this league?
Mike Green - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 10:42 PM EDT (#284490) #
Geez, I don't know.  If I wanted a player to give me 20 starts of 5-6 innings, I'd probably choose Happ.  If I wanted a player to give me 40 appearances with 1-2 innings of medium leverage work, I'd probably choose Rogers. They both have some value.  This club does not want for 1 WAR pitchers...
Mylegacy - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 10:43 PM EDT (#284491) #
Introducing...

Your AL East 1st place Toronto Blue Jays!

Gotta love the sound of that...now if only we can stay there for a few hours at least...

JB21 - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#284492) #
The Raptors drew 5k more fans than the Jays tonight, haha. Dem Astros.
John Northey - Wednesday, April 09 2014 @ 11:20 PM EDT (#284493) #
The Jays will be in first place tomorrow morning as well.  1/2 a game ahead of Tampa Bay, 1 game ahead of the rest.  The Jays right now are the only AL East team over 500.  One more vs Houston then a weekend set in Baltimore.
uglyone - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 12:00 AM EDT (#284494) #
"Except Rogers is probably much better than Happ. Is there a reason why Happ should be in this league?"

only performance.

Last year:

Happ 92.2ip, 4.56era, 4.31fip
Rogers 137.2ip, 4.77era, 4.73fip

Last 3 years:

Happ 393.2ip, 4.96era, 4.35fip
Rogers 299.1ip, 5.38ra, 4.64fip

Career

Happ 682.2ip, 4.25era, 4.38fip
Rogers 380.2ip, 5.52era, 4.43fip


and he's a lefty, and his numbers up there have come via more starter's innings.

ayjackson - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 12:26 AM EDT (#284495) #
Meh. Both pitchers have pretty unreliable historical numbers.  I have more faith in Rogers being useful in the AL going forward.
Richard S.S. - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 03:53 AM EDT (#284496) #
Interesting to note, over the last 9 games, Toronto's Bullpen has surrendered 12 ERs. Over the same time, Starters have surrendered 24 ERs. It seems that both Starting Pitchers and Relievers on this Team must be better.
AWeb - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 06:09 AM EDT (#284497) #
Interesting to note, over the last 9 games, Toronto's Bullpen has surrendered 12 ERs. Over the same time, Starters have surrendered 24 ERs. It seems that both Starting Pitchers and Relievers on this Team must be better.   That's 36 ER over 9 games - ERA of 4.00. Sure, they could be better than that, but realistically only by small increments. This pitching staff isn't suddenly going to lead the league in ERA, we should be happy enough with better than average.
Richard S.S. - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 07:38 AM EDT (#284498) #
That's an ERA of 5.14, not 4.00, because two games we shutouts. For the starters I can see an inning or two where one run sneaks by. I can see an inning of two or three runs score for whatever reason. What I object to is the sixth run that scores. For the Relievers, I object to letting more than one run scoring. Anything more is carelessness/incompetence.

Trying to come back in a 5-3 game is easier than a in a 7-3. Coming back from a 5-4 games is easier than a 6-4 game. Starters have up 6 just twice and Relievers have given up more than 1 only twice.

That just might make it easier to win games when Starters falter.
greenfrog - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 08:06 AM EDT (#284499) #
How can you object to anything when the Jays, which most people viewed as a last-place team, are in first place (with no contributions from Reyes or Janssen)?

Me, I'm revelling in it while it lasts.
85bluejay - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 08:19 AM EDT (#284500) #
The decision to start Dickey is interesting - I get the spin - wanting your ace to start on regular rest, Dickey pitches well in a closed dome, giving McGowan extra rest, breaking up Morrow/McGowan similar pitches & both likely to tax the pen - but - Don't you want your supposedly ace to face a divisional rival with a much stronger lineup, give McGowan a chance to gain some confidence against an inexperienced, weaker lineup as Morrow did? The conspiratorial me remembers that Gibbons was the most skeptical about McGowan in the rotation, that his boy Happ is likely 1 start away from rejoining the team and if McGowan blows up again against a good Orioles lineup, then the switch to Happ will seem a prudent move.
whiterasta80 - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 09:07 AM EDT (#284503) #
If McGowan "blows up" against the Baltimore Orioles, who are not the 1923 Yankees, then I don't want him in the rotation anyway.

Not that I want Happ replacing him, but lets sort out these rotation slots as quickly as we can rather than handing someone (Josh Johnson) 16 starts in some bizarre attempt to wipe Roy Halladay from the history books.
AWeb - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 09:19 AM EDT (#284504) #

That's an ERA of 5.14, not 4.00, because two games we[re] shutouts.

So shutouts don't count? 2 shutouts in 9 games, but ignoring those, the pitching hasn't been as good. What the heck are you talking about? Why throw out the shutouts, against division rivals no less? Why don't good pitching results count, after 9 freaking games, when looking at the pitching results?

I'm going to do the opposite. First game doesn't count, neither does game #4. Now the Jays have given up only 20 ER in 7 games, ERA of 2.86. Best pitching in the league?

Mike Green - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 09:34 AM EDT (#284506) #
It is interesting how the rotation will go.  Dickey today.  McGowan Friday.  Hutchison Saturday.  Buehrle Sunday.  Off day Monday.  Dickey (or Morrow) Tuesday.  Morrow (or Dickey) Wednesday.  McGowan (or Happ) Thursday.  Hutchison Friday.  Buehrle Saturday.  Dickey (or Morrow) Sunday. Off Day Monday.

It looks to me like the coaching staff are going to put Dickey on 4 days rest and take advantage of the Monday off-days to get him effectively an extra start.  I wonder if they will do the same for Buehrle. 



grjas - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 09:36 AM EDT (#284507) #
"The conspiratorial me remembers that Gibbons was the most skeptical about McGowan in the rotation"

I'm still a Gibbons skeptic but doubt he's going to screw around with the pitching order because he likes Happ. Based on media interviews, it seems he "likes" all his players. At least in public.

Splitting up two pitchers who are likely on pitch counts makes perfect sense to preserve the pen. A repeat of last year's bullpen innings excess is the last thing anyone wants.
Jonny German - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 09:41 AM EDT (#284508) #
For me the stated reasons on the rotation juggle make sense, I really don't think there's any hidden motive. And one more thing to consider - last year the Orioles lit Dickey up for 16 runs in 18-2/3 IP.
Mike Green - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 10:00 AM EDT (#284509) #
It was nice to see Wagner up and going 2 innings.  The club finally put the proximity of the triple A franchise to Toronto to very good use. 

The decision to bring in Delabar with a 7-3 lead in the ninth last night says something about Gibbons'  approach to Rogers.  Delabar had thrown the night before and two days before that.  He absolutely did not need the work.  Rogers had two days rest and had only thrown 1 (good) inning then.  It was a low leverage situation.  This isn't criticism of Gibbons- perhaps he feels it is best for Rogers to have a series of successes in low pressure situations (and a 4 run lead in the ninth isn't as low pressure as a two run deficit in the eighth even if it is the same leverage). 

John Northey - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 10:11 AM EDT (#284510) #
Just noticed that B-R has their Preview of each game up again.  For the Jays tonight for the pen (which is my favorite part of the BR preview)...
Unavailable (0 days rest and used more than 1 day in a row, or 0 days and 15+ pitches): Delabar, Wagner
0 days rest but under 15 pitches: Rogers
1 days rest: Cecil (16 pitches, 2 days off before that), Loup (26 pitches, so might be given another day), Santos (14 pitches, 2 days off before that so very available)
3 days rest: Redmond (59 pitches, should be available now though)

So 5 guys available, 4 with at least one day rest, 3 who should be completely rested and ready.  With Dickey on the mound I suspect the order is Cecil/Santos for 8/9th inning with Redmond getting lots of innings if Dickey is having an off day and Loup & Rogers only used if absolutely necessary.
uglyone - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#284515) #
"Meh. Both pitchers have pretty unreliable historical numbers. I have more faith in Rogers being useful in the AL going forward."

That's fine, even if i'm not sure where that faith comes from.

But really, i don't want either of them on the team at all.

SP Dickey
SP Buehrle
SP Morrow
SP Hutchison
SP McGowan
(SP Stroman)
(SP Nolin)
(SP Sanchez)

CL Janssen
SU Santos
LMR Cecil
RMR Delabar
LMR Loup
RMR Wagner
LR Redmond
(XR Stilson)
(XR Jenkins)
(XR Storey)

If we can stash Rogers/Happ in AAA as depth that's fine, but i sure hope they're not taking away jobs from the 12 guys above when healthy.

Though Happ as a reliever in wagner's place wouldn't be awful - i'd like to see if he can turn himself into an ace lefty reliever at age ~30 like many other failed lefty starters have before.

The problem with happ is that he doesn't seem to have come to grips with reality when it comes to his effectiveness as a starter, and doesn't seem interested in the least in becoming a fulltime reliever.

It might take him flaming out with yet another organizatiin before he wakes up and realizes it might be his best shot at staying in mlb.

uglyone - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#284516) #
"The decision to bring in Delabar with a 7-3 lead in the ninth last night says something about Gibbons' approach to Rogers. Delabar had thrown the night before and two days before that. He absolutely did not need the work. Rogers had two days rest and had only thrown 1 (good) inning then. It was a low leverage situation."

Gibbons also commented before the game about the wagner callup. Something to the effect of "we need somebody to keep us in it when we're trailing late in games"....which sounds a lot like a direct shot at rogers, condemning him to a pure mop up guy role.

The good news (to me at least) is that it seems like gibby has lost patience with rogers, and for good reason. And maybe happ too.

Of course, AA gave up a healthy chunk of assets for both of these guys, so we'll see whether he's willing to admit his mistakes and ditch them when we're healthy.
uglyone - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 11:28 AM EDT (#284517) #
And one more thing - i think griffin and stoeten have it right on the rotation juggling - this is all about dickey doing what's right for dickey. He wants to pitch indoors, on regular rest...and the weaker opponent doesn't hurt either.
China fan - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#284522) #
"...this is all about dickey doing what's right for dickey..."

And what's right for the team too. He's a more reliable pitcher than McGowan or Hutchison, so why not give him the additional start? He pitches deeper into games than McGowan or Hutchison, so he helps the bullpen too. And over the course of the season, it means that the Jays get more starts from their best pitchers and fewer starts for their (likely) worse pitchers. I fail to see why Dickey is being accused of selfishness. He doesn't have the power to decide on the rotation, and in any event, this shuffle is best for the team.
China fan - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 01:22 PM EDT (#284523) #
Just reading Griffin's story on Dickey. It's rather astonishing that he doesn't provide a single source (official or unofficial) to support his claim that Dickey is deciding when and where he pitches. I find it implausible that the Jays manager and GM would simply allow one of their pitchers to decide when and where he pitches. It's quite a shocking allegation to make, since it goes against decades of baseball tradition and strategy, and it has a potential to severely damage a team by allowing a player's personal interests to dictate what the team does. Griffin doesn't have a great reputation to begin with, on this site anyway, so I'm surprised that people would just accept his claims. But it's even less plausible when he doesn't provide any sources or any indication of why he believes that Dickey (not Gibbons) made the decision. He talks vaguely about episodes last year, but those are equally speculative. Finally he claims that Dickey is "results-oriented, not team-oriented." That's a bizarre statement. If Dickey is pitching more often than any other Jays starter, and if he is aiming for "results," then clearly his own success will be the team's success.

At the very end of his article, Griffin finally undercuts his entire angle by admitting the obvious truth: "The bottom line is that allowing Dickey to pitch where he’s more comfortable is probably, in the short term, what’s best for the team."
BalzacChieftain - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#284524) #

China fan, I had the exact same thoughts as you did while reading Griffin's hack job. I was also perplexed by his insinuation that because Dickey's an old knuckleballer with late-career success and unconvential mechanics, that he is lacking in leadership skills. This to me seems completely off-base.

And as you say, at the end of the piece, he undermines all of his arguments by basically stating that the Jays are making the right decision by starting him Friday.

John Northey - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#284526) #
It is strange that anyone would complain.  Having your #1 guy go as often as possible on as stable a schedule as possible seems like common sense.  How else did Roy Halladay get 36 starts in 2003, last year 4 guys had 34 starts, same in 2012, 8 in 2011, with 2 having 35 starts in 2010.  You need to find ways to get that top starter the extra games.  With Dickey you also have the added issue of his being a knuckleball pitcher - I recall in 1987 how frustrated Phil Niekro sounded in interviews about how he was given 10 days between starts by Jimy Williams as it kept him from getting and keeping the feel for the pitch (thus his first start was decent, other 2 horrid).  Add in  how Morrow and McGowan are not likely to get you 6 innings it just makes sense to break them up.  The Jays should do all they can to keep Buehrle and Dickey from pitching on consecutive days just to allow the pen that bit of breathing room.
Mike Green - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#284528) #
Navarro DHing and batting 5th tonight with Dickey facing the left-hander.  Perfect.
pubster - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#284530) #
"That's an ERA of 5.14, not 4.00, because two games we shutouts."

What am I reading? lol.

So if the pitching staff throws a shutout, then you don't count it? Every pitching staff's era will be a lot higher if you dont include their best performances.

Also, if you don't include a pitching staff's worst performances, then the era you calculate will be a lot lower.
JB21 - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#284531) #
I can only assume that the R.S.S. says stuff like this to get everybody going, best to ignore.
Beyonder - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#284532) #
If you imagine Richard SS's posts are being spoken by David Brent (Ricky Gervais in the British version of the Office), they become highly amusing. I recommend that everyone try it.
pubster - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#284533) #
Oh.

Haven't been on this site in a while.

Thanks for the guidance.
scottt - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#284535) #
McGowan had a rough outing in the opener, so maybe he does ok pitching on the road. I think it's sensible to give the home start to Dickey at this point.
In July who the teams are would likely factor in the decision.
92-93 - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#284539) #
Buehlre & Morrow didn't have high pitch counts, but I thought Gibbons pulled both of them at the right time from a stuff perspective. Gibby knows how important it is for this team to get off to a good start and has been managing accordingly. I especially like how Todd Redmond should be stretched out nicely for McGowan's start tomorrow, having thrown 59 pitches across 3.2 innings 3 days ago. I haven't had much faith in Redmond but he's been getting the job done and they will probably need him to make some starts before any kids are ready.

I love the start Navarro has gotten off to - no strikeouts, no walks. He's been fun to watch on all sides of the ball thus far, and a welcome reprieve from Arencibia.
JB21 - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 07:20 PM EDT (#284540) #
Gibby feeling sorry for the Stros giving them a 2 out 1st Inning.
dan gordon - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 07:44 PM EDT (#284541) #
Yah, I absolutely hate that play, bunting in the first inning after a leadoff double.
Hodgie - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 09:08 PM EDT (#284542) #
Dollars to doughnuts that bunt was all Izturis. You can take the player out of Anaheim but you can't take the Anaheim out of the player?
greenfrog - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 10:20 PM EDT (#284544) #
What made this loss a tough one for me:

- the bunt decision in the first inning

- Melky being a bit slow to get up and run to first when Dominguez booted one, squelching what would have been a two-on, two-out situation with the 2/3/4 hitters coming up

- Lawrie's cold streak continuing

- Dickey having another tough time with the long ball at the RC

I thought the Astros starter did a good job, though. He pitched around the edges of the strike zone all night.
Richard S.S. - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 10:25 PM EDT (#284545) #
The best evaluations of how your Pitchers are doing is ignore the shutouts and work with the non-shutouts. Relievers need to be under a 3.75 ERA, while Starters need to be under a 4.75 ERA. It just takes more work to understand than some are comfortable with.

The biggest problem is the 2 run or more inning by relievers and the three run or more inning by Starters. They are guaranteed momentum killers, generally burying the Team.

Why do pitchers this team hasn't seen before look like an Ace? Even bad pitchers do well with this team.
JB21 - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#284547) #
The Jays are third last in BABIP, hopefully some balls can start dropping. Though not surprisingly they're 3rd in HR's, allowing them to not be towards the last in runs scored. (note: this is all before tonights game).

I didn't totally understand the whole rotation switch when it's been documented that there is in fact a "Dickie effect". Why not take advantage of this advantage?
Original Ryan - Thursday, April 10 2014 @ 11:53 PM EDT (#284548) #
I didn't totally understand the whole rotation switch when it's been documented that there is in fact a "Dickie effect". Why not take advantage of this advantage?

Assuming that the Dickey effect does exist (as I recall, there was some evidence of it but it wasn't conclusive), there are a couple possibilities that I can think of:

  • The benefit of getting an extra start or two out of Dickey outweighs the benefit of the Dickey effect.
  • It's inevitable that Dickey's scheduled turn in the rotation will fall on the final game of a series at some point, so there are going to be times when it's impossible to get the benefit of the Dickey effect. Juggling the rotation and sacrificing the Dickey effect now may result in gaining the advantage of it in a later series when they would not have been able to had the rotation not been juggled. It probably evens out.
JB21 - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 12:58 AM EDT (#284549) #
I'm pretty sure it was conclusive, there were a two different studies released almost on the same day this past winter, one even showed a Dickie Effect for relievers coming in after he left.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Jays didn't make this shift so Dickie would start less times in the final game of the series.
uglyone - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 01:41 AM EDT (#284550) #
Esmil Rogers is the worst.
Original Ryan - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 05:51 AM EDT (#284551) #
I wasn't suggesting that the team did it to ensure Dickey's turn didn't fall on the final game of the series. The point was that juggling the rotation probably doesn't affect the team's ability to make use of the Dickey effect. Losing the effect now just means they probably gain it in another series. The team isn't actually losing anything.
greenfrog - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 07:23 AM EDT (#284552) #
Speaking of Esmil, Gomes is actually hitting better in 2014 than he did last year (OPS+ of 145 versus 133). Gomes would have been an outstanding RH bat off the bench this year (ability to play multiple positions and DH).
92-93 - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 08:28 AM EDT (#284553) #
At least we turned Snider into Erik Kratz, and not just another worthless bullpen "asset" for AA to manage incorrectly.
Mike Green - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 08:35 AM EDT (#284554) #
Gomes was drafted in the 10th round out of college by the Jays in 2009.  It was obvious from his minor league record that he had similar offensive skills to Arencibia, but a little less power and a little more ability to reach base.  For some reason, the organization felt that Arencibia had better defensive skills and so Gomes was never really considered to be a viable catching option. 

Texas had a scout who saw Syndergaard (perhaps a couple of times) and thought that he didn't have any possibility of being a major leaguer and marked him down for the 25th round.  After the draft and Syndergaard's first few minor league outings, the scout was fired.  It looks like the Blue Jay organization's mistake in the case of Gomes is going to be worse than the Texas scout's.  They have Gomes.  Some very smart person picks him in the 10th round; they get to see him over and over again.  One of their scouts, a former catcher, Kevin Cash, thinks highly of his defensive abilities, but someone else in the organization disagrees and they give him irregular work behind the plate.  Their existing catcher has manifest problems behind the plate.  Nonetheless, they trade Gomes (with a middle infielder of some ability) for a relief pitcher.  In the result, an excellent draft turns into a development failure.  Was anyone held responsible? 

John Northey - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 10:01 AM EDT (#284557) #
An interesting oddity.... of the 13 pitchers used by the Jays so far, 11 have 8+ K/9.  Only Dickey and Delabar have lower (6.8).
bpoz - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#284558) #
I agree with Mike G. K Cash was a good defensive catcher I believe, so his opinion surely counts.
At the moment we have S Nessy playing at Lansing and M Reeves in Dunedin. Somehow I hope they are evaluated properly by the Jay's people.
Dewey - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 10:41 AM EDT (#284560) #
". . . Was anyone held responsible?"

As you have reminded us, Mike, it's 2014!  Responsibility!?  Sooo 20thC.
hypobole - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#284562) #
Weren't a bunch of scouts fired this offseason, including Pastornicky?
Also Mike, I'm guessing there was more to your Texas Scout Story. Noah was not highly thought of by anyone going into his senior season. He improved dramatically near the end of the year though. I'm guessing the reason for his firing was not so much for his initial assessment, but for not bothering to go back and watch him after his velocity spike.
chips - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#284564) #
So, R.A. Dickey could be a 500 (winning percentage) pitcher for the rest of his Blue Jay career and we gave up a future ace plus other quality players for a 38 year old with a trick pitch that doesn't always trick?
Mike Green - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#284565) #
Perhaps you are right, hypobole.  With someone like Gomes who was in the organization for quite a while and for whom  there were  (let's say) competing evaluations from scouts, someone higher up would be involved, no?

My point about Syndergaard was that I find what the Texas scout did much easier to understand.  It is common for scouts to not get enough looks at a player due to time constraints.  I wonder whether the Jay scouts had enough looks at J.P. Crawford, for instance...

85bluejay - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#284568) #
Not unhappy about last night's pitching performance - looks good on Dickey - if this guy was a true ace, then accommodating him - personal catcher ,rearranging the rotation etc. would be tolerable, but Dickey is more a mid-rotation innings eater and it's debatable if he deserves special treatment - if the jays have an important game, I would not want Dickey to be the starter. Hope McGowan has a great start - I read that there was some talk about him tipping his pitches against the Yankees - the jays coaching staff does not inspire much confidence in me, so I hope someone has noticed the comments about tipping pitches.

Does Sal Butera need his eyes checked or is he incompetent? On both the Goins pickoff play and the Cabrera out at 1st., Butera, the coach apparently responsible for viewing the replays got it wrong - even causally watching on t.v, I could tell that Goins was safe & the Cabrera call was not going to be reversed and yet Butera couldn't - yet he was able to view the same replays as the umps. in New York. Apparently, the Orioles have hired an experienced former minor league umpire to in charge of viewing the replays and signalling to them whether to challenge - maybe the jays can't afford this luxury.
China fan - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#284572) #
".... looks good on Dickey..."

This is the amazing thing about some baseball fans -- wasting their anger on a player who doesn't always live up to their expectations, and then actually accusing him of selfishness, on the basis of zero evidence.

Why are you so gleeful that the Jays lost last night? You seem to be implying that it is appropriate punishment for the personal flaws of its starting pitcher, yet there is no evidence at all that he did anything that hurt the team. The Jays wanted him to pitch last night, he was willing to do it, and yet he gets accused of selfishness. Very weird.
greenfrog - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 12:31 PM EDT (#284573) #
At least the botched challenges haven't cost the Jays a game.

I remember when the Jays called up Gomes in 2012. Pat Tabler really liked what he saw and said so on air. Perhaps the Jays should check with Tabby first before making any positional player trades.

One reason why losing Gomes hurts is that over the last decade, the Jays have been hard-pressed to develop positional players, and in the few instances when they've managed to produce a good one (Hill, Gomes, Ryan Roberts), they've traded them away for next to nothing. I guess they weren't toolsy enough.
hypobole - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#284576) #
The Jays just seem like a very poorly run organization. They have a bizarre fascination with injured or injury prone pitchers. Their development of talent looks atrocious for the most part. Few successes and massive amounts of failures.

Many on this board undervalue bullpen arms, but the Jays org seems to overvalue them doubly so. They let their best coaches walk after the Farrell fiasco. The coaches they've retained may be great, but you'd never guess that by results. Farrell's one strength would have been bringing in a good pitching coach, but the Jays insisted on Walton, who they promptly canned when Farrell left.

Hill's problem wasn't lack of tools, his hitting deteriorated and despite almost 2 yrs of trying, the Jays simply weren't able to fix his swing - took Baylor about a week in Zona to do so.

I could go on and on, but it's too depressing. I love the Jays, but it's become like loving an alcoholic or drug addict. You want them to change and make some positive choices, but it just rarely seems to happen. Just an endless spiral.

At least Bautista and Melky are hitting well and Navarro seems a massive upgrade over last year.
Ryan Day - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#284577) #
I remember when the Jays called up Gomes in 2012. Pat Tabler really liked what he saw and said so on air.

Has Pat Tabler ever not liked what he saw? It generally takes a stunning display of incompetence for Tabler to voice his displeasure about anything, and even then he'll usually couch it in optimistic terms.
Mike Green - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#284579) #
I could go on and on, but it's too depressing. I love the Jays, but it's become like loving an alcoholic or drug addict. You want them to change and make some positive choices, but it just rarely seems to happen. Just an endless spiral.

I feel your pain. At least the fan meetings take place in uplifting environments- bars, living rooms and basements with mostly large screens.
Ryan Day - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 02:23 PM EDT (#284580) #
I love the Jays, but it's become like loving an alcoholic or drug addict.

Except for the part where it's a baseball team, no one is going to die or get physically injured, and there are no meaningful financial or emotional consequences to cutting baseball out of your life.
hypobole - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#284583) #
"Except for the part where it's a baseball team, no one is going to die or get physically injured, and there are no meaningful financial or emotional consequences to cutting baseball out of your life."

True. Did it with the Leafs during the Ballard years.
John Northey - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#284585) #
I cut the Leafs after the year+ long lockout.  Going a year plus without it made it easy to quit.  Didn't hurt that they've made the playoffs just once since then and were knocked out in horrible fashion from what I've seen.
christaylor - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#284586) #
I was in Boston for that game seven knock-out and it almost got me to start cheering for the Leafs for the first time ever (growing up in Toronto at my age it wasn't cool to cheer for the Leafs, we all picked other teams). But, because Boston sports fans are an easy breed of sports fan to dislike (even though I like many of them) I wanted to see the disappointment on their faces as I sipped a nice IPA and didn't watch the television last May.

I like hockey as a sport (love the Olympics) but I think the NHL is the problem. Too much mediocrity/coasting or too many teams for quality hockey (take your pick) and the ice too small for the game to shine.
Original Ryan - Friday, April 11 2014 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#284588) #
True. Did it with the Leafs during the Ballard years.

I did it with the Blue Jays back in 2000-01. I was fed up with Gord Ash's short-sightedness and wound up becoming a bit of an Athletics fan because of that team's embrace of what would later become known as Moneyball. I came back to the Blue Jays in 2002 after J.P. Ricciardi was hired, but I ignored the team for much of 2005 because of the poor way they handled Carlos Delgado's exit. While I've been annoyed with the Blue Jays of late, I'm not close to hopping off the bandwagon at this point.

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