Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
Well I just got into town
about an hour ago
Took a look around
See which way the wind blows

Time for us to leave the scenic northwest and head south to those Hollywood hills.


Our destination is 1000 Vin Scully Avenue.  Dodger Stadium is now 60 years old, making it  the third oldest park in the majors. It doesn't feel old, at least not the way that Fenway and Wrigley do. Those even older parks, built a full half century before Dodger Stadium, really do feel old - they're cramped and quaint (and sometimes damp.) But Dodger Stadium seems to stand almost out of time, immune to the changing fashions in stadium design that have come and gone since it opened back in 1962. It is a beautiful, perfect  baseball stadium. A classic. They did it right when they built this one. They also displaced, by means both fair and foul (very foul), a whole community of poor brown people in order to get it built, of course. It may have been 60 years ago, but that memory lingers as well.

The basic theory of the 2023 Blue Jays -  a theory I subscribed to - was that the final two months of the season would probably be better than the first four months, and that it would almost surely need to be better than the first four months. This was formulated as soon as we all took a good luck at the schedule. So here we are, 100 games in. It's a nice round number, and we're close enough to the final two months.

The best Blue Jays team at this point in the season - surprise, surprise - was the team that holds the franchise record for most wins in a season, the only Jays team ever to play a season of .600 ball. The 1985 team, for they were the ones, was 63-37 after their first 100 games. Next best were the 1987 and 1992 teams, both 59-41 at this point. 

It is, of course, a little easier to play .600 ball over 62 games than it is over 100, and six Jays teams have done just that over the final 62. No one will be surprised to learn that the 2015 team had the best closing kick of any Jays team, going 43-19 (.694) down the stretch. It's a three way tie for the next spot - the Jays went 39-23 (.629) to finish the season in 1989, 1993, and 2021. 

 I was also interested in the difference between performance over the first 100 games as opposed to performance over the final 62. One wants to know what sort of improvement is likely, is feasible. And necessary.  And no team improved as much as the 2015 team - they were just a .500 team through 100 games, 6.5 games off the division lead. They were a .694 team the rest of the way. That's a winning percentage improvement of .194 and don't expect to see anything like that again. Not anytime soon. Things that happen once in more than 40 years should not be expected or counted upon. Similarly, the 1989 team was 50-50, 4.5 games off the lead, at this point in the season. They had been required to play almost .600 ball for two months just to get back to .500 after their awful start, and then they went 39-23 (.629) the rest of the way.

This year's team starts from a better position, in terms of win-loss record, than either of those teams. The 1989 team also benefited from catching the AL East in a weak year, when 89 games was good enough for a first place finish. That's not happening in 2023. 

Now you may recall that the 2022 Blue Jays had this same 55-45 record that this year's team has after 100 games. Last year's team went 37-25 the rest of the way. That's .597 ball, and that's good baseball - and it was enough to get into the post-season party. And I would think that's the bare minimum of what will be necessary this time as well. I don't think the 2023 team needs to match the 2015 team the rest of the way, and I would be amazed if they did. But I do think they need to play at the next best pace, and win 38 or 39 of their remaining games. If the Blue Jays continue to play .550 ball, they'll finish with 89 wins and that almost certainly won't be good enough. They need to be better over the final 62.

Incidentally (in the interest in completeness!) - the worst Jays team at this juncture was Roy Hartsfield's last team in 1979, who were a ghastly 30-70 at this point. Go on, try to find that entertaining.

The worst closing kick... well, it's hard to know what to do about the the depressed veterans of the 92-93 champs, lost in the grim death march of the 1995 season. They were bad enough (42-58) through the first 100, and they were quite a bit worse (14-30) the rest of the way. Yeah, it was a 144 game season. If we look at that team's final 62 games, it's just as ugly - they went 21-41 which would also be the worst season finish in franchise history.

But that 1995 squad was a bad team from Day One. So I want to single out the 2012 team, who had a better record (51-49) after 100 games than either the 1989 or the 2015 division winners. But over the last two months of the John Farrell era, the Jays went 22-40. Their winning percentage down the stretch was .155 worse than it had been over the first 100 games, and that's easily the biggest negative slip in franchise history.

On with the business. Of the 29 other teams in the majors, no team has been harder for the Jays to defeat than the Dodgers. The Jays have won just 7 of the 21 games between the two teams. That's both their fewest wins against any MLB opponent and their worst (.333) winning percentage. And naturally this year's Dodgers are really good, and what did you actually expect anyway? They're the Los Angeles Dodgers. They've played .613 ball over the last 10 years. They've won at least 91 games in every one of those ten seasons - except the season of just 60 games (they went 43-17, .717 and won the World Series that year.) 

This is Dave Roberts' tenth season as the manager. His Dodgers have a .628 winning percentage and people might want to stand up and pay some attention. Come on, folks. No manager in the history of the game who has managed at least 1,000 games has a better winning percentage than Dave Roberts. He's actually ahead of Joe McCarthy himself (.615) - that's right, Freaking Joe McCarthy, the most successful manager who ever lived. 

I hasten to add that  Marse Joe did this for 24 seasons and for three different teams. And he also won seven World Series championships. Roberts, who turned 51 a few months ago, is just getting started.And yeah, he's had great players. Of course he's had great players. How the hell else are you going to play .600 ball every year? So did Joe McCarthy, so did Earl Weaver.  That's how their teams played .600 ball every year. People should be more impressed when they actually do it, year after year after year. There are so many ways to screw it all up.

The Jays and Dodgers last met in Los Angeles, back in August 2019. The Dodgers swept three from the Jays without exerting themselves unduly (they were on their way to winning 106 games, the Jays were on their way to losing 95.) The Jays answered Clayton Kershaw with a bullpen day, started by the immortal Buddy Boshers. It  went just about as well as you would expect. Bo Bichette did hit a couple of homers off Kershaw, but they needed a whole lot more. Boshers actually did just fine in his inning, but the Dodgers kicked the living crap out of the guys who followed him - Sean Reid-Foley, Neil Ramirez, Justin Shafer - scoring 16 runs on 16 hits and 10 walks issued by Jays pitchers. One of those pitchers was Richard Urena, which tells you how out of hand it had become before it was over.

The Jays made it much more interesting the next day - it was another bullpen day, and this day's pitchers (Font, Boshers, Godley, Giles, Adam) held the Dodgers to a single run on five hits through nine innings. The Jays had tied it in the innth when Rowdy Telles homered off Kenley Jensen, but in the bottom of the tenth Max Muncy walked it off against Tim Mayza.

The Dodgers completed the sweep the next day. A Guerrero homer off Kenta Maeda helped the visitors take a 2-0 lead into the ninth inning. Derek Law was on the mound. He walked Muncy and gave up a one-out double to Bellinger. Corey Seager doubled those two home to tie the game, and scored the winning run on Enrique Hernandez's single.

It's been a while since the Blue Jays beat these guys. More than seven years, in fact. Cast your memory back to May 2016, a Friday night at the Dome by the Lake, Marcus Stroman and Kenta Maeda locked up in a tight game. A two run homer by Bautista had put the Jays in front, but the Dodgers tied it with two of their own in the seventh. The game was turned over to the bullpens, and in the eighth Kevin Pillar hit a solo homer off Joe Blanton. That was the final, a 3-2 Jays victory, and getting the W for the Jays was Gavin Floyd.

The last time the Jays won a game in Dodger Stadium... well, that was quite a while back. Quite a while. It was June 2007, and it was Mighty Troy Glaus leading the offense with a couple of homers in an 11-5 Jays victory. Roy Halladay went seven innings; Bryan Tallet and Jordan DeJong finished up. Nomar Garciaparra and Jeff Kent both pinch hit for the Dodgers that night, and Sal Fasano was catching for the Jays. Memories!

Wednesday, of course, is Mick Jagger's 80th birthday. Happy birthday, you ancient reprobate! Is this any way for a mature man to behave?

I don't know. What better way would there be?

Matchups

Mon 24 July - Berrios (8-7, 3.39) vs Grove (2-2, 6.40)
Tue 25 July - Bassitt (10-5, 3.92) vs Urias (7-6, 5.02)
Wed 26 July - Kikuchi (7-3, 3.92) vs Gonsolin (5-3, 3.94)

Toronto at Los Angeles Dodgers, July 24-26 | 282 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
hypobole - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#432409) #
So I'm back to GDP's. Our penchant for them has caused me to invent the "infuriometer". It has been cranked to 11 this year even more than Nigel Tufnel's amp. Multiple posters have said this team is not that enjoyable despite it's record. Our GDP's, in crucial situations especially, has constantly sapped my enjoyment.  5 Jays with double digit GDP's now, with Springer and Vlad both top 6 in mlb, and Kirk who has now hit into 12 in only 247 PA's.


KK is 6th on the Jays with 7. That's the same as J. D. Martinez of the Dodgers. Except he is the only Dodger with more than 5. Then there's James Outman, a name that's kind of fitting for a guy with a 33% K rate.  He's had 336 PA's this year and hit into exactly ZERO! In 146 PA's with men on base he has K'd 48 times. That's really bad. But when he has hit the ball, he's batting .302 with 4 doubles, 2 triples and 8 home runs. .302 with 8 HR's is exactly what Vlad has. No Jay has hit more than 8 and Bo's .330 with men on is the only BA better than Outman's.
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#432420) #
Seems like some favourable pitching matchups for the Jays. I hope they can capitalize on that
bpoz - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#432421) #
10th best record in the AL is Seattle. Of these top 10 teams NYY play a weak NYM and LAA plays a weak Detroit.

There will be changes if anyone get swept. Texas at Houston. Baltimore at Philly. Seattle at Minnesota. Atlanta at Boston.

So lots of pressure. Of course there will be even more pressure in the playoffs when we keep advancing series by series.
John Northey - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 04:29 PM EDT (#432432) #
Hate these west coast games - lose sleep if I watch them, can't resist most of the time. Grr.

Dodgers have 7 guys with 9+ starts, and another with 6 starts (currently on roster - Emmet Sheehan). Far cry from 2021 when they had 7 guys get 6+ starts with Kershaw, Bauer, Scherzer, Price being among those 7. Walker Buehler had a 171 ERA+ over 33 starts but now is recovering from TJ and had his first successful bullpen session in late June but hasn't had a single pro inning yet. Seems wrong for a Dodger team to have an ERA+ of just 101 but that is what having 10 pitchers on the 60 day IL will do to you. Yes, ten. Plus 2 more on the 15 day IL (Syndergaard & Kershaw). Insane.
Leaside Cowboy - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#432438) #
Mr. Northey, welcome Sir.

Mr. Mojo Risin is an anagram.

bpoz - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#432439) #
Whatever LAD do they end up near the top of the NL. I wonder how their fans feel this year?
Ducey - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#432441) #
8 days until the trade deadline. They should have Ryu and Green back soon.

Maybe they can pick up a salary dump bat on the cheap. That's all I am inclined to cheer for.

I am not a believer that this team has "it" this year - that magical power that turns good teams into great teams.
Leaside Cowboy - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#432442) #
The 26th player on this club has been a mysterious figure, so that roster spot can be improved.

Does the demotion of Nate Pearson suggest the player is likely to be traded?
John Northey - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#432443) #
For fun I checked Trade Values Trade Simulator to get an idea as to what it would take to get Ohtani - he doesn't really fit with Vlad & Belt plus potentially 6 man rotation but he is the best around so why not look?

Ohtani is listed at a value of 42.6 (dropping daily due to the season getting nearer an end and his becoming a free agent post-2023).

On the Jays side only Bo & Gausman are worth more than that.  Then comes Tiedemann at 31.4 despite being hurt most of the year, Kirk at 28.5, Manoah at 22.2.  Vlad is down at 18 now.

So my first shot that the simulator accepted is Manoah, White, Barriera - figure the Angels need pitching and a headliner (Manoah despite a poor year qualifies).  Frees up a rotation slot for Ohtani, clears out White (Jays need more pen slots) and a hot prospect.

Pure prospects? Tiedemann plus Barriera does the job. 

Clear out stuff we don't need if the deal happens?  No value there as Belt has negative value, Kikuchi is just 0.4 so a throw in level of value, Bassitt is -15.5, Ryu -6, Berrios -3.2 so none of them have value in a trade. Cimber is -1.2, you get the idea - no clearing out crap in a deal.

Basically it would cost a massive prospect or Manoah to do the trade, or Vlad potentially plus prospects.

Jays would be best served waiting until the post-season and bidding big as Ohtani would be a great fit for 2024 and beyond with no signed DH and Ryu a free agent assuming the Jays would want to go to a 6 man rotation (with the 6th not using one of those 13 pitching slots).  Basically Ohtani is worth around $80 mil a year to a team it seems, and that is damn hard to get.  Go hard right away with a $600 mil 10+ year deal and see if he bites, if not just plan out the winter accordingly as odds are he is going to LAD imo.
Shoeless Joe - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#432444) #
The Jays can’t really afford to do much at the deadline, the farm system just isn’t strong enough.
hypobole - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 09:45 PM EDT (#432445) #
How much do the Jays have to do though? Don't have enough to get Ohtani. Got plenty enough for a Tommy Pham or some reliever.
greenfrog - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#432446) #
The farm system looks a lot better than it did two months ago (Orelvis, Jimenez, Tiedemann, Barriera, Barger, Horwitz, Brown, Roden). They definitely have enough trade chips to make a move.

Of course, the O’s and Rays are in a better position to make a move at the deadline.

I think the ideal move would be to acquire a quality controllable RH corner outfielder who can contribute this year and in 2024-2025 as well. The next best thing would be to add a quality rental outfielder who can shore up this year’s roster.

There is going be a huge flurry of activity in the day or so before the deadline once teams have made a final determination as to whether they are strong buyers, weak buyers, weak sellers, or strong sellers.
Nigel - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 10:28 PM EDT (#432448) #
Even by Varsho’s low standards that was just a horrible AB.
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 10:48 PM EDT (#432450) #
He wasn’t the only one, and at least he swung at a strike. Springer, Vladdy and Kirk did not
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#432451) #
He wasn’t the only one, and at least he swung at a strike. Springer, Vladdy and Kirk did not
Leaside Cowboy - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 10:57 PM EDT (#432452) #
Hollywood Hotel (1937) . . . Hooray for Hollywood!
uglyone - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 11:50 PM EDT (#432453) #
I mean i still believe in Varsho but it's on the manager that he's still in the middle of the order for some reason. He obviously should be at the very bottom until he starts hitting.
dalimon5 - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 11:50 PM EDT (#432454) #
"So the Blue Jays start at first and third and nobody out and cannot score."

Even Schulman is getting frustrated. Maybe bat Kirk leadoff...
dalimon5 - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 11:52 PM EDT (#432455) #
WHY is the starter pulled by this manager after 5????
uglyone - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 11:58 PM EDT (#432456) #
I actually agree with that pull. Berrios wouldn't have made it thru another.
hypobole - Monday, July 24 2023 @ 11:58 PM EDT (#432457) #
I actually stopped watching when Schneider left Varsho in to bat against Ferguson. I said to myself Varsho K, Kirk DP. It was so predictable.
Kelekin - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:00 AM EDT (#432458) #
He was at 94 pitches and had a WHIP of 1.80, and 2 of the next 3 batters were lefties. Schneider often goes to the bullpen early but I don't think it was a bad call on paper.
Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:05 AM EDT (#432459) #
Génesis Cabrera makes a nice first impression.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:13 AM EDT (#432460) #
I just feel like this manager has a really quick hook. Hayward, Taylor and Outman...He could have gone 6 innings. You leave Gausman and Berrios in longer and take Manoah out sooner. Scneider is doing it backwards.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:16 AM EDT (#432461) #
I think he has a quick hook too, but not tonight. Berrios was in trouble all night
SK in NJ - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:19 AM EDT (#432462) #
I know from an optics standpoint it would look really bad for the FO, but they can't possibly keep running Varsho out there with how he's been hitting. He's been a 70 wRC+ left fielder, and nothing in his Statcast indicators suggest better results are ahead. If he's broken, then they have 3 years to fix him so no time to panic, but if they are serious about maximizing 2023 wins, then I think they badly need a LF upgrade even if it means having Varsho off the bench for the rest of the season.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:29 AM EDT (#432463) #
Was just gonna praise Schneider's bullpen management when richards tossed up that epic meatball.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:30 AM EDT (#432464) #
Richards getting overworked and here we go again.
Nigel - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:31 AM EDT (#432465) #
Totally agree with the pull. This Dodgers lineup is one of the best in baseball and Berrios was working hard all night. Full credit to him, I thought this was a great effort on a night when he didn’t really have it.

In a pennant race, niceties shouldn’t matter (although they do). Thy need to trade for a major league caliber hitter in LF and bench Varsho (using him against low velocity RH’s and as a defensive replacement).
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:33 AM EDT (#432466) #
Everything up in the zone. Much easier to pitch in low leverage is what richards is thinking now.
Kelekin - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:33 AM EDT (#432467) #
Idk, Richards has an OPS of .643 against lefties compared to Yimi's .808.

Schneider deserves a lot of criticism this year but I think we're really just starting to blame him for anything that doesn't work out. He's not directly responsible for Richards hanging a breaking ball.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:36 AM EDT (#432468) #
Schneider made the right call with richards. I wasnt blaming anyone but richards for that meatball or the following meatballs.
Kelekin - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:37 AM EDT (#432469) #
I agree about Varsho though. The fact they keep trying to force him higher into the batting order to split up him and Kiermaier is painful. There is no value in breaking them up in the lineup if we're going to run both of them out there. It just is not fitting well at all.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:37 AM EDT (#432470) #
Is Mayza not available?
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:38 AM EDT (#432471) #
But if he really has no choice but to keep richards in bere when he clearly doesnt have it then this goes back to schneider's brutal bullpen mamagmenrt last series.
Kelekin - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:38 AM EDT (#432472) #
Apologies UO.

I do wonder if there are a lot of unavailable arms tonight...it seems weird that no one was even throwing.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:39 AM EDT (#432473) #
Clearly I am the minority that felt this bullpen would struggle more with this line up than Berrios did. While Cabrera pitched very well against the bottom of the line up, Garcia was very lucky to have that big strike zone expansion to get key hitters out. Then Richards comes in and is overworked and doesn't have it. Guess what, now bases are loaded and there's nobody to warm up unless you bring in Romano early or Mayza or ... anyone but now when it's time to pull Richards he's gonna leave him in.

uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:41 AM EDT (#432474) #
Yikes when Dan just said this was richards 2nd game in a row and 3rd in 4, and yet somehow he's the "rested" guy.
Kelekin - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:42 AM EDT (#432475) #
@dalimon5 - I think further to what UO said, it really is a reflection more of some bad bullpen management last series than bad decisions tonight - but of course that should be taken into consideration.

If we're going to a six-man rotation, they have to be okay with getting more out of our starters even if the matchups are bad, or our bullpen is going to be worked even harder.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:43 AM EDT (#432476) #
Thing is Kelekin.....Kiermaier is hitting well enough to hit higher than the bottom of the order and has been all year.

No issue putting KK 6 or 7 and Varsho 9.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:48 AM EDT (#432477) #
Honestly I've heard that Schneider doesn't bend to the FO and the early pulls are his calls. I was so stunned from the Gausman pull last year in the playoffs. I think Schneider just manages scared and "hopes" things will happen where a better manager would just sit Varsho like he sits Biggio. I don't know. He is the manager. Maybe it's the analytics department calling all the shots but I'm not going to curse some twenty something Harvard grad hiding behind an excel sheet, know what I mean?

Nigel - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:50 AM EDT (#432478) #
Credit where credit is due. I thought both Varsho and Kirk had good ABs in the 9th.
Kelekin - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:50 AM EDT (#432479) #
@UO - Yeah, Kiermaier had a rough June (.472 OPS) and his July isn't great (.689 OPS), and Varsho had a better June (.765 OPS) but his July is awful (.307 OPS). He's just trying to do too much - and at least 9th is a great spot to lay bunts down. We take way too long to make lineup adjustments though.
Kelekin - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:53 AM EDT (#432480) #
Bottom of the 9th at Dodger Stadium with Betts, Freeman, and Smith coming up. Cool, cool cool, cool.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:55 AM EDT (#432481) #
JJ has been great this year.

Here's hoping.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:58 AM EDT (#432482) #
Attaboy JJ.

Quick enough that he's probably coming out for another too.
Kelekin - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:59 AM EDT (#432483) #
Great job JJ. That's gotta feel good.
Nigel - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:05 AM EDT (#432484) #
I’m not going to criticize Schneider for not benching Varsho. There isn’t an obviously better choice (yet) and he’s only human. How many employees would bench a player his boss traded one of the best prospects in baseball for? Not happening.
Kelekin - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:05 AM EDT (#432485) #
When Vladdy hit that grounder I could feel dalimon5 wincing from here :D

(admittedly, I winced too)
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:12 AM EDT (#432486) #
Love how easy varsho makes that.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:16 AM EDT (#432487) #
That's gold from JJ. And the pen did their job overall.

For the love of god get one single hit now please.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:22 AM EDT (#432488) #
Season turning point for varsho.

(How didnt merrifield get home there??)
Kelekin - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:22 AM EDT (#432489) #
Our Varsho reverse psychology worked!
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:25 AM EDT (#432490) #
Gonna go ahead and give schneider big props for the pitching decisions tonight, especially given that his 2 setup guys seem to be unavailable.

This applies even if Romano blows it.
Nigel - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:31 AM EDT (#432491) #
Some really good ABs in the 11th. It’s going to be hard to overcome Springer being a league average hitter.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:39 AM EDT (#432492) #
4gms back of TB.
Kelekin - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:41 AM EDT (#432493) #
Glad we got the win. Hope Romano is okay, maybe tweaked the back. Amazing that he was throwing 98 in his 4th game in 5 days - guess he found the designer devil's lettuce in Calabasas.
John Northey - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 02:28 AM EDT (#432494) #
The pen sure seems deep at times doesn't it? Who do you dump to make room for Green?

Locks: Romano, Richards, Swanson, Mayza, Garcia, and Jackson is making a strong case to be kept I'd say but could be demoted for a few weeks then brought back up for September I guess. White is the guy most would dump in a second but he could still be a very good #6 starter in 2024 if the Jays can ever figure out why his FIP is nearly identical to LA (3.87 there, 4.04 here) but not his ERA+ (117 there, 52 here). Wonder if a phantom injury could happen to him "oh my toenail!"

Going by what they do for the team today, White has to go for Jackson to stay as Green needs a slot soon. But for the future it is far more debatable. Plus, of course, we have Ryu almost ready to return and that makes the crunch even more pronounced.
Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:05 AM EDT (#432495) #
Swimming pools, movie stars.
99BlueJaysWay - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:34 AM EDT (#432496) #
If they get rid of White they would have no long man. What would happen if someone got hurt early? We’d burn the entire pen just completing the game.

To me the obvious choice is Jackson, despite his success.
bpoz - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:35 AM EDT (#432497) #
Varsho came through for the Jays.
scottt - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 08:06 AM EDT (#432498) #
The ballad of Jay Jackson.

Now 3-0 and he's only allowed a run because the Yankees were stealing pitches.

Wait, who did Showman call a numerologist? Buck actually knows what that is.
"I don't think so." LOL.

The Dodgers have a loaded lineup. Well, the first 6 guys anyway.
The pitching isn't so deep, probably because of the impressing list of pitchers on the IL.


greenfrog - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 09:08 AM EDT (#432499) #
Guessing the Jays might be trying to land a big bat via trade through a combination of prospects and/or starting pitching (Ryu or Manoah).
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#432500) #

* NYM -18.5div, -7.0wc
* SD -10.0div, -6.0wc
* DET -7.0div, -9.5wc

Sellers imo.


* CHC -7.0div, -5.0wc
* LAA -7.0div, -4.5wc
* CLE -4.0div, -6.5wc

Very close to sellers.


Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#432501) #
Action Jackson.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 10:18 AM EDT (#432502) #
I hope we don't do a 6 man rotation.

The pen need more rest than the starters imo.

Unless a 6 man rotation means going back to 100 pitch limits instead of 80-90.
John Northey - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 11:16 AM EDT (#432503) #
Plenty want a big bat, but where would that bat play? If the Jays are top 10 at a position there isn't much of an upgrade available, top 15 means they are above average.
  • C: Nope, Kirk/Jansen are very solid, 7th in WAR at C in the majors
  • 1B/DH: Nope, Vlad & Belt are solid, 11th in WAR at 1B, 10th at DH.
  • 2B-3B-SS: 11th at 2B, 7th at SS, 4th at 3B. Second is possible I guess, #1 is St Louis thanks mostly to Nolan Gorman (age 23) & Brendan Donovan (2nd ML season at 26, used everywhere). Either would be sweet (120's wRC each) but expensive given the years of control each has.
  • LF/CF/RF: 10th/12th/17th, overall 10th (most teams have a hole at one of the 3). We hit the weakest link and it is George Springer it seems.
So on offense the easiest would be the OF but you ain't benching Springer. 2B could be but would be expensive. A backup RH OF would be nice but who? Lane Thomas has done amazing for Washington as a RH hitter and plays all 3 OF positions (#1 was LF last year, has split between RF and CF this year) 130 OPS+ over 429 PA, 114 lifetime. Vs LHP he has killed at 368/415/656 vs RHP 258/306/413. Jays lost him for International Bonus Money years ago (2017) which helped the Jays sign Eric Pardinho, Leonardo Jimenez, and Miguel Hiraldo (all got $750k+ bonuses). Washington got him last July for Jon Lester (had an 81 ERA+ at the time as a starter). Wonder what they would demand today?
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#432504) #
Last Calendar Year Stats as we approach the deadline:

* Springer 654pa, 116wrc+, 3.0war, 3.0war/650pa
* Bichette 721pa, 141wrc+, 5.7war, 5.1war/650pa
* Guerrero 729pa, 123wrc+, 1.5war, 1.3war/650pa
* Chapman 681pa, 125wrc+, 5.2war, 5.0war/650pa
* Belt 353pa, 109wrc+, 0.6war, 1.1war/650pa
* Merrifield 536pa, 112wrc+, 2.7war, 3.3war/650pa
* Kiermaier 270pa, 111wrc+, 1.9war, 4.6war/650pa
* Jansen 383pa, 113wrc+, 2.5war, 4.2war/650pa
* Varsho 632pa, 91wrc+, 3.1war, 3.2war/650pa

* Kirk 476pa, 90wrc+, 1.6war, 2.2war/650pa
* Biggio 306pa, 83wrc+, 0.3war, 0.6war/650pa
* Espinal 277pa, 82wrc+, 0.3war, 0.7war/650pa


* Heineman 102pa, 78wrc+, 0.5war, 3.2war/650pa
* Lukes 25pa, 68wrc+, 0.1war, 2.6war/650pa
* Horwitz 10pa, 102wrc+, 0.0war, 0.0war/650pa
* Luplow 76pa, 35wrc+, -0.3war, -2.6war/650pa
* Clement 43pa, -13wrc+, -0.4war, -6.0war/650pa
scottt - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 12:58 PM EDT (#432505) #
The 6 man rotation means letting the starters pitch longer *after* they get their extra rest and if the situation calls for it. That starts with the day off on Thursday.
Ryan Day - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:27 PM EDT (#432506) #
If they get rid of White they would have no long man.

I don't think White is a long man any more - he hasn't pitched more than 2 innings since May, in AAA. The team has other relievers who can do that much.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#432507) #
Make Ryu/Kikuchi the long man. Or Manoah maybe. Whichever one is least good as a starter.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#432508) #
It’s not clear that Manoah, Ryu or Kikuchi would be effective as a long man, given that they’re used to being SPs The Jays would probably be better off trading one of them for real value and then obtaining a long man elsewhere. Besides, in the postseason, the team will need only four starters—let’s say Gausman, Berrios, Bassitt and Kikuchi (or Ryu).
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#432509) #
Or just use Francis as the long man.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#432510) #
I think decent SP are more likely to be good longmen than the typical long man.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#432511) #
A couple of tidbits from Jeff Passan’s latest trade deadline column:

“For now, the (selling) teams are asking filet prices for what the industry regards more as chuck talent.”

“Despite currently holding the final wild-card spot, Toronto hasn't done enough to convince ownership to open up the coffers, leaving the Blue Jays precisely where they've been all season: the muddled middle. That said, when asked where Ohtani could wind up if he's moved, three of the most popular answers from executives are Baltimore, Tampa Bay and Toronto (the Blue Jays are a longer shot due to a thinner farm system).”
99BlueJaysWay - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#432512) #
They can definitely use Francis, but he’s currently in AAA so that doesn’t help in terms of finding a roster spot for Green.

I think the bullpen is very short on multi-inning guys, so I think taking out White to replace him with Green is very risky. I don’t think they can afford to burn out their pen, again, and not carrying someone in the event of a blow out or injury (heaven forbid) could have a cascading effect that the team cannot afford.

I value the insurance element of a long man over another effective single inning reliever
Nigel - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 01:59 PM EDT (#432513) #
I'm with greenfrog - I have no idea why White is currently on the roster and not Francis. It's certainly not on merit.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#432514) #
Under the assumption that Green actually deserves to be up and will pitch well, then that frees up Richards to move back into a longer role.

Strictly short relievers:

Romano
Mayza
Swanson
Garcia
Jackson
Cabrera (optionable)

Longish relievers:

Ryu/Kikuchi/Manoah
Richards
Pearson
White
Francis
Hatch


Staff

* #1 Gausman
* #2 Berrios
* #3 Bassitt
* #4 1 of Manoah/Kikuchi/Ryu
* #5 1 of Manoah/Kikuchi/Ryu

* #1 Romano
* #2 Swanson
* #3 Mayza
* #4 Green
* #5 Garcia
* #6 Richards (long)
* #7 1 of Manoah/Kikuchi/Ryu (long)
* #8 Jackson/Cabrera/Pearson/Pop/Cimber/Francis/Hatch (short? Long?)
SK in NJ - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#432516) #
The FO seems to care a lot about optics. Not sure if that plays a part in White still being on the roster, given that they gave up an actual prospect for him, but it's baffling how they can see his stuff and think he's worthy of a roster spot. I would think White is gone for Ryu/Green (whichever comes up first), but the 2nd demotion almost has to be Jackson because there's no one else they can option down. I'm still holding out hope for a Garcia deadline trade so they can avoid the vesting option for 2024, but that seems unlikely. He's 3 appearances away from that option, and with the way Schneider uses the pen, he'll get there by Saturday.
John Northey - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#432517) #
Pitching is tough. How will the Jays juggle it?

Rotation: Gausman-Berrios both 120+ ERA+ are getting their starts, Bassitt-Kikuchi are at 107 each and should keep going, Manoah 5.02 ERA in his 3 starts since coming back, in a normal world he'd be at risk but he was 3rd for Cy votes last year so the Jays will stick with him I suspect. Ryu is tough, he'll get the #6 role so 2-3 starts upcoming, but then ...?

Bullpen: Romano-Swanson-Mayza-Garcia-Richards are locks. Green should be once healthy. That leaves 1 or 2 slots only for Jackson, White, 6th starter, Pearson, Génesis Cabrera, new acquisition, you get the idea. Jackson, Pearson, Cabrera can all be sent down, but Jackson has been very reliable and if you are trying to win now then White has to go. Cabrera had a good first game, Pearson showed a LOT when here both good and bad. So roster management is a big issue going forward.

IMO the Jays need to look at a many for 1 trade with a team that has a couple of really good relievers but no depth who might want to have more of a bridge. A thought might be Tanner Scott from Miami - a team with a 107 ERA+ and Scott has been one of the better relievers but they could use some depth right now with 4 pitchers used this year on the IL. No real bats available there as they try to sneak into the playoffs. Anyone not on the trusted list has to be made available - heck, even mix in Garcia if they want imo. Lets cut back the depth and get more short term effective guys. I'd look at losing teams that are desperate to give their kids a break too - teams that could use a White or Pearson (possibly shifting back to a starter) or others who could eat a few innings and maybe be useful in 2024 as well in exchange for a 1 inning flame thrower who is a free agent post 2023 or 2024.
Ducey - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#432518) #
White being on the roster is no more complicated than he is out of options and they don't want to lose him for a bag of pucks - especially with the trade deadline coming up

It doesn't seem that the upgrade to Francis is worth losing White for.

Everyone wanted to throw Richards overboard in the spring. And players get hurt. You just never know.

I would think White is toast once Ryu and Green are ready, and that they are working to move him as part of a deadline deal for help elsewhere.
scottt - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#432519) #
Ryu has never pitched an inning in relief and will probably not start now.

White probably goes through waivers and if he doesn't, they can pick up someone just like him the way they picked up Cabrera.

A healthy Green could push Richards and Garcia into middle relief roles (1+ innings).

With 6 starters, they might be able to use the starter who is on his bullpen day to throw an inning instead.
Ideally, they rotate guys with options like they have always done.
That's Jackson/Cabrera/Pearson/Pop/Francis/Hatch.
If Cimber is deemed healthy, he'll need a spot.


Sports Illustrated says that the Blue Jays are interested in Lance Lynn, which makes no sense to me.

jerjapan - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#432520) #
I think some of the conversation around the pen is sort of missing the point.
White is length.  He is on the length depth chart, last man on that list.  The guy isn't around due to the FO trying not to look bad.  He's around until there is a better depth length option. 

Thornton was last man on the bullpen depth chart.  One inning AAAA types have value to a team as long they have options.  But it's a different depth chart. 

Which brings us to Jackson.  He is not meant to be 6th or 7th in the pen.  Dude has one full season of mediocre relief work under his belt, spread across 8 years, and has been lit up in AAA this year.  Age 35. 

And hey, I love guys like Jackson.  Crazy career path. All of 6 big league games until he's in his 30s.  Action Jackson is a dope nickname. 

He's, say, your perfectly fine 10th guy.  Hatch, TT, Jackson - these guys are / were jostling to beat out a Cimber or a Pop for the 8th spot.  All guys with options.  Add Genesis to the list. 

My money is that Hatch is the DFA for Green, White for Ryu. 

Francis and Danner would be the internal wildcards to mix with the back end depth chart. 

uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#432521) #
"Ryu has never pitched an inning in relief and will probably not start now."

He's also never been 36 and coming of TJ with diminished velo before.

Guys, relief is easier than starting. The worst starters go in the pen. It's not rocket science.

Forcing a 6 man rotation seems pretty silly.
Hodgie - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 05:41 PM EDT (#432522) #
What good is White's "length" if he is unplayable in anything that isn't a double-digit blow-out? The Jays need to get past the sunk cost fallacy and run out their best roster. If that means someone is interested in taking a flier on White, I wish them all the best.
John Northey - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#432524) #
I see a 6 man rotation for the 17 days of non-stop games as a useful thing. After that, not so much. You don't want to burn out Gausman, Berrios, etc. or limit them to 2 times through the order. Also, the Jays want to see if Ryu has anything left as if he does he could be a very good starter for the last 2 months. The challenge is roster juggling.

Good point about Jackson being nothing special - he just is having a hot streak right now. If by some miracle this is his real level from now on, great, but if not then the Jays might be smart to send him back to AAA for Green or Pearson. I'd wait until he blows up though first - take full advantage of his hot streak.

I am in favor of a deal that mixes an assortment of pieces to get one solid arm in the pen if anyone out there would do that (sadly those deals work in fantasy leagues but not in real life). In the end the only thing I really want the Jays to get is a good RH hitter who can play a decent LF as a backup/platoon mate for KK and Varsho. Ideally one that doesn't cost a top 10 prospect. We'll see if the Jays can pull that one off or not.
Nigel - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#432526) #
Totally agree Hodgie. White's 28 years old and has a 5.00 ERA across bits of three seasons. That's the definition of fungible. That you traded an actual prospect for the privilege of being subjected to the baseball farce that is the Mitch White Mound Experience every so often is no longer relevant.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 06:53 PM EDT (#432527) #
Prediction. The Jays make a serious bid for Ohtani. I'm not saying they're going to land him (even assuming he's made available on the trade market).
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#432528) #
My thinking is that the front office knows what happened in Toronto with Kawhi Leonard and the Raptors. Sometimes it's worth it to go all in on that one special player when it gives you a legitimate shot at a championship. You never know when that shot will come around again.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:10 PM EDT (#432530) #
So vladdy for ohtani then?
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:13 PM EDT (#432531) #
Pretty much every trade package suggested by baseball commentators consists of prospects (say a couple of top 100 prospects, plus one or two others). Why would the Jays have to include Vladdy? How would Vladdy help the Angels accomplish anything in the next couple of years? (He wouldn't.)
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:15 PM EDT (#432532) #
Are those prospectsuch younger than 24?
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:20 PM EDT (#432533) #
Are the Angels going to be a contender (with or without VGJ) during Vladdy's pre-free agency years? No. No they are not.

Now, could the Angels be good again in several years after an Orioles-style rebuild, bolstered by a few good prospects acquired now? That seems possible.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:25 PM EDT (#432534) #
Ok so Tiedemann and Orelvis and....?
mathesond - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#432535) #
"Ok so Tiedemann and Orelvis and....?"

Vladdy would be the throw-in to make the salaries work.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#432536) #
Hehehe
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:28 PM EDT (#432537) #
If I were the Angels GM, I would say, sure. Give me Tiedemann, Barriera, Orelvis, Jimenez, and Bonilla, and you can have Ohtani.

Then you make a counteroffer and see what happens.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#432538) #
Tbh i'd trade them all without thinking twice.

No joke.
Kelekin - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#432539) #
I've played enough Out of the Park Baseball to know all we have to do is turn on draft pick trading and offer them our 1st through 5th rounders and some FCL guys. One Ohtani, please.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:38 PM EDT (#432540) #
The Jays are never going to have a healthier team than this. It’s a good team. Do they want to be great? Do they want to dominate opponents and win the World Series? Then make a real move.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:42 PM EDT (#432541) #
Does "they" refer to rogers?

Then the answer is no.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:42 PM EDT (#432542) #
If the Angels keep Ohtani at the trade deadline, they’ll be lucky to get one prospect as good as any of those five as a compensatory draft pick when he departs via free agency.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#432543) #
Also "no" if "they" refers to the FO.

But man, would i go for an AA trade right now. Trade the whole damn farm for the best player that's ever lived. Even if he's a rental

Crap. I just realized AA is gonna get Ohtani.
Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#432544) #
Action Jackson is a dope nickname.

It's a fun movie too! " Action Jackson " (1988) starring Carl Weathers ("Apollo Creed") with Craig T. Nelson and Sharon Stone.

uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#432545) #
You mean Carl "Dillon" Weathers.
bpoz - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#432546) #
Not sure where these rumors are coming from regarding Ohtani to the Jays. IMO this is nonsense.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 08:14 PM EDT (#432547) #
maybe it's a pipe dream, but it sure ain't nonsense.
Kelekin - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 08:17 PM EDT (#432548) #
The rumors exist because it's important to generate clicks. I tend to imagine Jon Morosi hiding behind some sort of artificial plant outside the offices of various GMs with his ear cupped to the door.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 08:24 PM EDT (#432549) #
(but Ohtani to jays makes uber sense for all parties)

greenfrog - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 08:52 PM EDT (#432550) #
I would offer something like:

Tiedemann, Barger, Jimenez, Rojas

In other words, two top-100 prospects and two other good prospects. Which really is an overpay for a rental, but Ohtani is Ohtani.

Would I also throw in an elite lottery ticket like Bonilla? It would make me feel sick to do it, but…probably.



dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 09:23 PM EDT (#432551) #
Yeah i'd do that.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#432552) #
" I tend to imagine Jon Morosi hiding behind some sort of artificial plant outside the offices of various GMs with his ear cupped to the door."

Bloody brilliant
John Northey - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#432553) #
If a trade for Ohtani is possible I'd follow it up immediately with a 12 year $600 million offer to him. Lock him in for the rest of his career and then try to see if Bo or Vlad will sign long term too - then you have a core than would be insane and very expensive.

Trade Rumors values suggested it would take a Tiedemann or Manoah to make the trade work. Plus 2 decent prospects. Scary deal if you can't sign Ohtani long term, but could make for a fun 2023. Belt becomes a bench player who would cover 1B when Vlad needs a day off, pinch hits for whoever is at 2B vs a tough RHP. If not part of the trade then Manoah goes back to the minors or Kikuchi to the pen.

Sadly I don't see how it can work practically - the cost is high and it would enhance DH and SP both of which are top 10 in the majors right now. SP #10 in fWAR at 7.4, DH #10 at 1.2 fWAR. So yes, an improvement but is it enough to be worth the high cost? Might get more bang for the buck getting a RH hitting OF who can keep KK or Varsho on the bench vs LH and some RH.
BlueJayWay - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 09:57 PM EDT (#432554) #
I'd give a lot for Ohtani...if an extension came with it.

As good as Ohtani is I wouldn't give up my best four or five prospects for two months of him. I don't know if any team would do that without assurances of extending.
scottt - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 09:58 PM EDT (#432555) #
There is no chance that Othani would sign here even for 1 billion.
Nobody wants to negotiate while they play.
Nobody throws away free agency with 2 months left.
Just talking about it raises the money everybody will ask for in an extension.

Soto would have been an interesting target because he's got 1 year left and that is worth something. 
With Varsho moving to center next year, they would just have moved Merrifield out of the outfield and reduced the opportunities of Espinal/Biggio.

uglyone - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 10:06 PM EDT (#432556) #
Who cares about the extension.

Kawhi it up, bitches.
Leaside Cowboy - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#432557) #
Mets @ Yankees. Pete Alonso clubs a 372 ft. 3-run homer. And there goes another one! A tape-measure 431 ft. solo shot. Here come the Metropolitans! Leading 9-3 in the 9th.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 10:17 PM EDT (#432558) #
Another Jays DP with RISP? You’ve got to be kidding me.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 10:41 PM EDT (#432559) #
I see Rogers has deployed Ben Nicholaon-Smith to manage expectations around Ohtani (that is, to stop fans from getting their hopes up that the Jays could make such a bold move).

No mention in his article of the obvious Kawhi analogy.
scottt - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 10:43 PM EDT (#432560) #
The starters want a 6 man rotation.
Gausman's velo was down by 4 mph last outing.
If they force them to go on a normal rest for 2 months, you'll see more of them coming up with "side discomfort".

Relief is easier for guys who have velo and 2 decent pitches.
Ryu isn't a max effort guy.

With 6 starters, you don't need a Mitch White.
If a starter gets knocked out you use another starter as the long man if you have to.
It's not like Mitch White is pitching a whole lot.


99BlueJaysWay - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 11:03 PM EDT (#432561) #
Scottt, I can’t recall another team in baseball ever running a 6 man rotation while using those same starters as long relievers. Maybe it’s happened, but I really can’t see Bassitt, Gausman, Berrios, or Ryu doing it. Manoah hasn’t been a reliever since college, but at least he’s done it somewhat recently
christaylor - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 11:22 PM EDT (#432562) #
The Padres say they won't trade Soto -- but am I alone in thinking that Soto and Snell would make more sense than Ohtani given the Jays farm system, the FO, and Soto's one year of control?

Also kind of nice to spread the injury risk across two players.

That said, I doubt the team does much at the deadline given the rumors are that seller's asking prices are through the roof. The FO has been pretty savvy at the last few deadlines, hopefully they can find a Berrios, Merrifield, or Ray again...


SK in NJ - Tuesday, July 25 2023 @ 11:40 PM EDT (#432563) #
A game like this should illustrate how bad it is to have Mitch White on the roster. At least with someone like Francis you could be somewhat confident of him throwing an inning in a close game. The Jays can't possibly use White as long as they are leading/tied and it's close.
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 12:05 AM EDT (#432564) #
The front office appears so hesitant to admit their mistakes that White will hang.on the roster until the bitter end.

I fully expect LA to pick him back up when he ends up on waivers... (the Jays have been brutal at obtaining anything for DFA'd players)
Eephus - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 12:26 AM EDT (#432565) #
To quote Star Trek III…. Give me Genesis!!!!
uglyone - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 12:29 AM EDT (#432566) #
"The starters want a 6 man rotation."

I don't believe it.

But if true....

Waaaah waAH

Deal with the 5man
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 12:31 AM EDT (#432567) #
Genesis Cabrera looked absolutely filthy with three above-average pitches. If that command holds up... Wow.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 12:35 AM EDT (#432568) #
Strange move by Roberts bringing in a lefty with 3 RH batters coming up.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 12:58 AM EDT (#432569) #
Get it in the air Danny.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 01:00 AM EDT (#432570) #
Good things happen when you get it in the air.
Eephus - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 01:21 AM EDT (#432571) #
You gotta be F’ing kidding me.
Eephus - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 01:37 AM EDT (#432572) #
Well that was fun. Think this has to be my least favourite good Jays team of all time. Experts at stealing defeat from the jaws of victory *insert expletives here
Nigel - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 01:41 AM EDT (#432573) #
Make tonight Exhibit A in the case for why emptying the bucket to go for it at this year’s trade deadline makes no sense.
Eephus - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 02:01 AM EDT (#432574) #
Yeah. Aside from a few fun storylines, this has to be one of the most joyless +.500 teams I've ever seen. I can't really explain why, but it just seems like watching them is a constant anxiety inducing "please don't mess this up" experience... like every game is an existential tightrope. And I watch maybe a game or two a week because of work! I can't imagine how you full-time subscribers feel. 

Reminds me of the 2016 team. Just a frustrating yet somewhat successful enterprise that'll still likely find a playoff spot, but none of us really believe in them doing anything with that. Blech. Anyhow I've been sick and grumpy all day, so take my barbs with a grain of seasoning salt.     
John Northey - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 02:03 AM EDT (#432575) #
Or Exhibit A for why the Jays should - they were damn close to a win today and one more solid reliever might have done it. Throughout the game a solid hitter might have done the job to push across the extra one they needed too.

So many variables in MLB. Vlad has more hard hit balls than anyone else but they often go right at someone. Deep pen, but due to keeping White around they had no one to go to in the 10th but White and with predictable results. Says a lot that no one is lamenting not having Bass around even tonight - and that no one has picked him up yet (just double checked).

So I write this one off to 'crap happens, sometimes in big heaping chunks that smell REALLY bad'.
soupman - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 02:19 AM EDT (#432576) #
There’s blame to go around and the broadcast seemed to focus on Espy’s gaff maybe a bit unfairly given it was a four run lead at the top of the frame.

I wonder if the clubhouse is as pessimistic as the fans appear to be.

For everyone’s sake I hope this team goes far because I could see Edwad and the other suits tightening the purse strings if it fails again.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 02:41 AM EDT (#432577) #
Mitch White, baby.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 02:43 AM EDT (#432578) #
"Make tonight Exhibit A in the case for why emptying the bucket to go for it at this year’s trade deadline makes no sense."

Can't wait for Tieds and Orelvis to lead us to a 2030 title.
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 06:30 AM EDT (#432579) #
To quote Star Trek III . . . Give me Genesis!!!!

Of course, Captain Kirk's arch-nemesis Khan Noonien Singh demanded "all data and material regarding the project called Genesis," in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982) starring Ricardo Montalbán. Although, the terra-formed Genesis planet re-appears during Star Trek III: The Search for Spock (1984) starring Christopher Lloyd.

Star Fleet Command has designated Genesis as "a forbidden subject," so this conversation never took place.

mathesond - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 07:59 AM EDT (#432580) #
"To quote Star Trek III . . . Give me Genesis!!!!"

Eh, it's merely Wind & Wuthering. Or is it a Trick of the Tail?
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 08:01 AM EDT (#432581) #
I believe Schneider deserves more blame. A few observations:

*when your team struggles to make offense and your bullpen is already overworked it makes sense to try to extend your starters to 100 pitches.

*when your line up just isn't cutting it and you're going into August you need to try something new. Redo the line up instead of hoping it all clicks. Last year he moved Bo down the order


What this team is struggling with is the lineup lacks a true clean up hitter. Springer and Bo hack away at top of the line up the Vlad comes up and he's chasing.

Continually scoring 3 or fewer runs/game, pulling starters before a QS/100 pitches and relying on your last bullpen arms in a key series is crazy, unless he's trying to make his GM look bad.

My final grade is in: John Schneider is a great guy, has his team motivated but is no better than Charlie Montoyo was.

99BlueJaysWay - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 08:01 AM EDT (#432582) #
So……phantom IL for Swanson?
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 08:12 AM EDT (#432583) #
I think Friday’s 3-2 loss against the M’s, when Kikuchi was pulled after 78 pitches, set the tone for this road trip. The bullpen, which was doing brilliantly, is now overworked as a result. Yusei probably could have pitched 7 innings (instead of 5.1) that night.

SK in NJ - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 08:19 AM EDT (#432584) #
This team continues to be the least enjoyable good Jays team in a while. Boring, frustrating, and now blowing leads left and right. Don’t trade any top prospects (whatever is left of them in this system). This isn’t the team to do it for.
Paul D - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 09:08 AM EDT (#432585) #
As dire as things seem, the Jays have the second best record in the AL since June 1. Seems like exactly the type of team you try to improve
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 09:28 AM EDT (#432586) #
I would go for it this year. Next year Chapman, KK, Merrifield, and Ryu will be gone. The team is unlikely to have the level of health they’ve had this year. Players like Gausman and Bassitt and Springer are going to be a year older. The team could easier fall back into middling-team status.

Add Ohtani and the team would be on the short list of favourites to win the WS this year. Playoff rotation of Gausman, Ohtani, Berrios, Bassitt. Lineup top 6 of Springer, Ohtani, Bichette, Vladdy, Chapman, Merrifield

The team could also trade for a RH bat to platoon with Varsho to further deepen the lineup.
scottt - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 09:30 AM EDT (#432587) #
They are there because they don't have weak spots.
That's very hard to improve on.

A guy brought over is as likely to slump as outperform the guy they would replace.
The Dodgers won like night because they have many guys who hustle.
3 infield hits in one inning. A guy scored from second on an infield hit to tie the game.
Varsho is the Jays' best hustler and the prime target for benching.
Nothing would improve the team more than a hot month from Varsho.

The bullpen has lost  3 games on this trip.
Some of it can be overwork but a lot of it is bad luck.

This team can beat any team in a best of 7 series.
I don't trust them to get out of the wild card series and no trade will change that.
The best scenario is to play the AL Central.

dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#432588) #
I would go for it but the manager needs to do better. I don't trust him in the playoffs. If he must pull your ace early in key games then bolster the bullpen. There's a very good chance this team beats the Mariners last year in the playoffs and is fighting for the division right now if this manager lets his pitchers go to their max.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 10:51 AM EDT (#432589) #
There was questioning why the  Kawhi analogy wasn't brought up in the B N-S story. Because they are 2 very different sports. One superstar can dominate in basketball. Not so in baseball. The team with the best player in basketball usually makes the finals and often wins. Not so in baseball. Mike Trout was the best player for years and his Angels made the playoffs once and never even won 1 playoff game.

AA in 2015 was brought up. His deadline moves were fantastic, turning an underachieving .500 club into the best team in baseball. That team didn't win the WS - they never even made it to the WS. Last year the Dodgers were the best team in baseball. They won 1 playoff game. Juan Soto was the huge deadline deal. The Padres didn't make it to the WS. The worst playoff team in the NL, the 87 win Phillies did.


Magpie on multiple occasions has brought up the randomness of playoff baseball. Seems to fall on deaf ears. Making the playoffs is the prime objective. That means you have at least a good team. From there on just hope that good team has luck on its side.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#432590) #
I don’t expect the FO to deviate from its current approach. Shapiro has said his goal for the Jays is to “just get in” to the playoffs (meaning that anything can happen once you’re in). I think they’ll try to have as many years of contention as possible, as this leads to higher revenues, rather than go for it in one hail mary of a season. They’ll be “opportunistic,” but they won’t make moves that they consider to be reckless.
bpoz - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#432591) #
Very well said hypobole. I agree 100%.

So make the playoffs and get lucky!! Shapiro did say "just make it" after the 91 win 2021 team did not get into the playoffs.
jz6pwc - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#432592) #
I agree with many of the comments here, but John...you are way too positive :) Definity a glass half full guy.

Runners in scoring position, big hits when they need to pull away, sloppy baserunning and poor defense decisions (from the infielders) means there is too much to fix for a trade deadline when you are light on assets rebuilding teams will want.

I'm not sure whats up with Espinal, but he has been in a fog all year. At bat and in the field. Based on his performance so far, he should be easily replaced by someone on the farm.

I think the bullpen has been miss-managed all year and overworked. I expect more of what we saw last night the rest of the way because of that. The blame is on the manager for that.

Even if you managed to get a big bat at the deadline, like a Bellinger I think you need 2. They need more output from 2b or lf depending on where you play Merrifield and you need a DH that drives in runs, not just get on base. And even if they managed that, a lot of things would need to go right with everyone else. 6 man rotation doesn't mean your bullpen gets more rest, maybe the opposite, and they desperately need that. Adding Green helps. Valdy 2023 needs to be Valdy 2021. Bo and Whit need to maintain what they are doing today, and not miss any days. Kirk needs to figure out how to hit the ball in the air and Chapman needs to be more clutch. Sadly, Varsho at the plate is a wright-off this year, needs to be used more like he was last night...coming off the bench when you need a bunt or in the field for defense late in games.

I have watched a lot of baseball and I feel like you can kind of sense when a team is could be dangerous in the playoffs. Those teams have clutch hits, come from behind to win big games against good teams, and just have a swagger that puts a little doubts in any opposing teams lead. They are teams that pull away early in the game, and everyone contributes. I'm not seeing any of this with this team. I would lean more on the side of a trade that helps us for next year, and trade roster players that you know will not.

Maybe that is just me, the glass half empty guy...
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 11:04 AM EDT (#432593) #
Trout and Ohtani is an apples-and-oranges (or apples-and-unicorn) comparison. Ohtani gives you a #1 or 2 starting pitcher and an MVP-level hitter (wRC+ 183 this year) in one roster spot. That would arguably have a Kawhi-level impact on the Jays roster in 2023.

Anthopoulos has said his one real regret us that he didn’t “go for it” as much as he should have 2015. He went 90% all in, but he didn’t make the one remaining move on the table (Tellez for Zobrist) that could have put the team over the top. Had AA truly gone all in that year, the Jays likely would have their first World Championship since 1993.
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 11:06 AM EDT (#432594) #
Looking ahead to 2024, the club could very well have a lot of holes to fill in the lineup: 3B, 2B, LF (or CF), DH and most of the bench... And lots of 40-man roster churn due to FA, underperformance and lack of MiLB options.

I doubt this is a team that is playoff worthy... Certainly won't go far with performances like this.

I would like to see the Jays start to give some youngsters a part-time look and also address some potential 2024 shortcomings at the trade deadline rather than emptying the farm for a pointless playoff push.

Players possibly leaving:
Yimi Garcia (trade)
Mitch White (just make him disappear)
Whit Merrifield (FA)
Matt Chapman (FA)
Brandon Belt (FA)
Kevin Kiermaier (FA)
Ernie Clement (out of options)
Cavan Biggio (non-tendered)
Hyun-Jin Ryu (FA)
Adam Cimber (non-tendered)
Otto Lopez (out of options)
Nathan Lukes (maybe stays, maybe goes)
Thomas Hatch (out of options)
Jay Jackson (out of options)
Santiago Espinal (non tender or trade)
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 11:10 AM EDT (#432595) #
It's more complicated than "get to the playoffs" because of the first round byes, and the fact that it is easier to get to the playoffs than it was even 10 years ago.

It is as difficult to get from playoffs to WC as to make the playoffs and it is far from simply luck that determines which team emerges.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 11:18 AM EDT (#432596) #
Happy birthday, Mr. Jagger. A spoonful of rum helps the Geritol go down. In high school, my nickname was Mick. No resemblance though.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#432597) #
I think this team can be playoff-worthy, but it needs a catalytic addition or two.

Also, everyone keeps saying how "thinned out" the farm system is, which is somewhat true, but I actually think the farm is in respectable shape, especially compared to about two months ago. They have some good position player prospects (Orelvis, Jimenez, Barger, Roden, Brown, Bonilla, Nimmala, a few others) and pitching prospects (Tiedemann, Barriera, Rojas, Robberse, Santos, a few others).
Nigel - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 11:26 AM EDT (#432598) #
Why would you empty the bucket when far and away the most likely outcome is that this is a WC team even after a big trade. It’s likely a WC team without big trades?
Nigel - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#432599) #
Now, if I was the O’s I’d be all in on a huge trade. Totally different situation for them (they are a coin flip for the division and have massive minor league capital still to spend).
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#432600) #
Apparently the Rays and White Sox are actively working on a Lance Lynn trade. That makes sense for the Rays. They need to make significant moves to fend off the ascendant Orioles.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#432601) #
One question the Jays need to ask themselves is, if we are not good enough to be an elite postseason team this year, how are we going to reach that level in 2024-2025 (and beyond)? Because the roster is getting older and is unlikely to have this level of health going forward.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#432602) #
you go for it because this team is as good as any team in baseball, and the time for this roster to win is now.
85bluejay - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 12:04 PM EDT (#432603) #
The O's should definitely go for Ohtani - the O's are the most exciting team in the AL and Kudos to a great rebuild.
85bluejay - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 12:08 PM EDT (#432604) #
I expect the Jays to sell the farm and go for it because of the need to recuperate some of the stadium renovation cost asap.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 12:24 PM EDT (#432605) #
The biggest renovation cost is next year when the entire infield bowl is redone and ticket prices go up massively. They were asking me to pay $20,000 to $80,000 for two tickets starting 2024.
bpoz - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#432606) #
I don't believe that there are "championship caliber teams". Houston won 106 games in 2022 AND won the WS. So they qualify as a CCT IMO. Atlanta won 88 games in 2021 but became a "championship caliber team (CCT)" because they won the WS IMO.

If nobody agrees with me, that is ok.

The following is a short list of teams that had a great regular reason by winning 100+ games but did not win the WS.

In 2022 NYY 99W which was tops in the AL but still less than 100W. LAD 111W and Atlanta/NYM 101W. No WS so not a CCT IMO.

In 2021 TB 100W, SF 107W and LAD 106W. No WS so not a CCT IMO.

I realize that the media influences most fans, but either you won the WS or you did not.

I remember the 2013 Jays team that was touted by the media as a CCT. They failed to make the playoffs.

Please feel free to do your own checking for 100W teams that did not win the WS and also check less than 100W teams that did win the WS. IMO predictions are just media hype.
Nigel - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 12:45 PM EDT (#432608) #
UO - I just don't think the facts support the idea that the Jays are as good as any team in baseball. By the 100 game mark, RS differential is pretty indicative of team quality (there are always outliers, of course). For the Jays, the offense has been unlucky due to sequencing to about the same extent as the pitching has been lucky. There's nothing amiss in the Jays' RS differential. The Jays are a tier 2 team this year. Which is good, and likely to be a playoff team, but nothing special.
soupman - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#432610) #
Spend lots of money to reduce supply. Idk seems like some galaxy brain business school stuff to me. Did we ever see the pro formas on how that made sense?

I know people caught on to state issued bonds, so did anyone figure out what tax breaks we gave these clowns? I know Shapiro was lobbying the city last year. Maybe I’ll file some foi requests and poke around.
soupman - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#432611) #
Atlanta has won its division the last 5 years in a row (iirc). The 88 win season was a down year where they still beat the Mets and Phils to the post. The WS Jays teams were a championship team on paper and in the field. More times than not it’s a top tier team that is taking the hardware. Cheapening the playoffs makes the World Series mean less and less because any team in baseball can look good for a month: case in point the pirates, marlins, and reds have all looked unstoppable this year for stretches. Giving them a chance to win makes the 6+ months of baseball we watch mean less. European football celebrates its season as much as its best on best tournaments.
mathesond - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#432612) #
I'm actually fine with the FO showing the players they believe that the team is better than what the results have shown, and trading prospects for immediate help. I mean, it's not like the prospects are guaranteed to be any great shakes.
Hodgie - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#432613) #
While I can find fault with the FO for a great many things, I don't envy the decision they must make this deadline.

On one hand, despite relatively great health, the team has shown no consistency and is barely hanging on to a playoff position. Conversely, despite massive underperformance by four of the team's most important players (Manoah, Guerrero, Springer, Kirk) and the culture-changing trades (Hernandez, Gurriel) yet to produce any significant benefit, the team is still in a playoff position and even a small regression to the mean from those players pushes the team back into the elite status.

Me? I like stars and banners, so I am all over the Ohtani trade discussions if the trade came with the expectation of an extension. Rogers has lots of money, and except for Springer, I am not concerned that this is the new normal for the other players mentioned above. Adding and extending Ohtani keeps the World Series window open for a few more years with this core despite the lost prospects.

Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#432614) #
If the playoffs started today:

(3) Minnesota vs. (6) Toronto -{ winner plays (2) Texas }
(4) Tampa Bay vs. (5) Houston -{ winner plays (1) Baltimore }

(3) Milwaukee vs. (6) San Francisco -{ winner plays (2) L.A. Dodgers }
(4) Cincinnati vs. (5) Arizona -{ winner plays (1) Atlanta }

hypobole - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#432615) #
Josh Donaldson might set a record. In his 120 PA's/96 AB's, he has 10 HR, but only 4 singles and one double.  That gives him a BABIP of .076, which if it stands, would be the lowest ever for a player with at least 100 PA's in a season. He went on the 60 day last week, so he has a real shot.
John Northey - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 02:23 PM EDT (#432616) #
The Jays this year have been very frustrating, no question there. The talent is sky high, but we are seeing underperformance from many players - here is a list of guys 10+ points below their career OPS+, ignoring the 13th man of course (Lukes-Heineman-Luplow-Horwitz-Clement have 80 PA between them)
  • Springer: 130 lifetime OPS+, 104 this year
  • Vlad: 133 lifetime, 122 this year
  • Kirk: 114 lifetime, 88 this year
  • Varsho: 96 lifetime, 76 this year
  • Biggio: 102 lifetime, 90 this year
  • Espinal: 97 lifetime, 72 this year
10+ OPS+ above career...
  • KK: 99 lifetime, 114 this year
Nearly Dead On (within 10 points)
  • Belt: 123 lifetime, 124 this year.
  • Chapman: 120 lifetime, 126 this year.
  • Bo: 128 lifetime, 131 this year.
  • Merrifield: 104 lifetime, 111 this year
So from a hitting POV the Jays are below expected from 6 guys, above with 1, as expected from 4. Net is a 109 OPS+, 4th in the AL, 6th in majors.

What about pitching? ERA+ used here. 10+ Below...
  • Manoah: 125 lifetime, 69 this year
  • Garcia: 112 lifetime, 95 this year
  • Romano: 161 lifetime, 149 this year
  • Cimber: 121 lifetime, 57 this year
  • Bass: 102 lifetime, 86 this year (and released)
10+ Above...
  • Gausman: 108 lifetime, 131 this year
  • Berrios: 103 lifetime, 123 this year
  • Kikuchi: 86 lifetime, 107 this year
  • Richards: 96 lifetime, 132 this year
  • Swanson: 103 lifetime, 117 this year (yes, even after last night)
  • Mayza: 120 lifetime, 324 this year
Within 10...
  • Bassitt: 116 lifetime, 107 this year
  • Pearson: 88 lifetime, 89 this year
So the pitching has been all over the place among the top 13 for IP (20+ IP, next is Jackson at 14). 5 below, 6 above, 2 as is. Key though is only one starter is below expected, and our closer still has a killer ERA+ even if it is a bit worse than normal. The 2 disasters are either released or in the minors. Just Manoah has really been a burden in 2023 vs any reasonable expectations. Team ERA+ of 109, 4th in the AL, 11th in majors.

Bottom line? Jays have a top tier offense by any measure but have scored below the ML average runs/game despite that. Very frustrating to watch but not much can be done as that lands under 'luck' mostly. Runs allowed per game the Jays are 5th in the majors, which is elite - only the Rays & Twins are better in the AL with Houston virtually tied.

I've said it 1001 times, a strong RH hitting OF who can fill in for Varsho/KK is the best fit and would only cost the 13th man slot which is barely used as is. We are getting a former ace in Ryu back shortly and a solid reliever in Green as well. White and Espinal both are dumpable to open slots if needed.
mathesond - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#432617) #
If Miami could only start losing more regularly, maybe Jorge Soler could be made available.
#2JBrumfield - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#432618) #
BLOCKBUSTER TRADE! Not really. From Jeff Passan.

Reliever Trent Thornton is being traded to the Seattle Mariners, sources tell ESPN. He was DFA’d last week when the Toronto Blue Jays acquired Genesis Cabrera. Headed to the Blue Jays is infielder Mason McCoy, currently in AAA.

McCoy batted .234 with a .737 OPS with 11 homers and 55 RBI for Tacoma.
Gerry - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#432619) #
McCoy is a 28 year old SS. I think Buffalo already has plenty of those, shortstops that is. Clement, Orelvis, Lantigua, De Los Santos, not all of them are good defensively of course.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 02:45 PM EDT (#432620) #
Buffalo has plenty of SS now. Barger too. Trading them all for Ohtani. :).
Ducey - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#432621) #
Normally you would say something is better than nothing. In this case, nothing would be better than McCoy. At lease nothing would not be taking up playing time from a prospect.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#432622) #
Soon to be ex-Jays prospect.
John Northey - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 02:56 PM EDT (#432623) #
There is the question - could this be setting up Buffalo to be safe should a big trade happen? Nah, I see it as just housekeeping - ensuring you have lots of players at each level and getting something - anything - for Thornton while giving him a shot elsewhere.
Nigel - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#432624) #
Speaking of ex-Jay prospects, one of my favourites, Riley Adams is going bonkers in Washington. A tidy little 140 wRC+ on the year. Ok, so its only in about 100 PA - but still:).
hypobole - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#432625) #
I'm  going to guess one of those guys Gerry listed (or Barger) is gone at the deadline.
Ryan Day - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 03:09 PM EDT (#432626) #
I think Buffalo already has plenty of those, shortstops that is. Clement, Orelvis, Lantigua, De Los Santos, not all of them are good defensively of course.

I don't think I'd even call most of those guys shortstops, as much as guys who play shortstops sometimes. Clement's probably the only legit shortstop of the bunch, and I expect he'll bounce between the Jays and AAA for the rest of the season. I don't think McCoy is taking any meaningful playing time from anyone.
Nigel - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 03:11 PM EDT (#432627) #
Agree with Ryan Day on that. Barger isn't a SS either.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 03:19 PM EDT (#432628) #
Ex-Jays catchers are littering the majors. Riley, Perez, Gomes, Moreno, D'Arnaud, McGuire all were all prospects in the Jays system. Plus Luke Maile still has an MLB job.
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#432629) #
Barger's been playing a lot of RF recently
Nigel - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#432630) #
Barger as a RF makes a lot of sense. He isn't a SS and, while he has the arm for 3B, I'm not sure he could really play 3B at the level that you'd like. So RF is where I think he's best suited.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 04:31 PM EDT (#432635) #
Nigel - jays rank 8th in ERA-, 10th in FIP-, 8th in xFIP-, and rank well defensively by all metrics. I don't see any luck there at all tbh.
92-93 - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#432636) #
The luck is in the health, though you can argue they don't have anyone truly good enough to really matter. The Astros are about to get back elite hitters in Alvarez and Altuve and the Yankees have Judge around the corner. The Houston guys aren't typically as durable as Bo but they've missed a lot of time.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#432638) #
Manoah Tiedemann Bass Pop Cimber Ryu Green
92-93 - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#432639) #
Hehe
soupman - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#432640) #
Lame Thomas is also having a year for the Nats. 130 OPS+ in 400ab and he was given up for bonus slot space.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 05:42 PM EDT (#432641) #
Three-run blast by Merrifield. What a great trade that was.

For all the angst, the Jays will be 3-3 on the road trip if they see this one through.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#432643) #
Finally Schneider mot managing scared. YK going 6 for the QS. Now try to push the limit and bring him back out for the 7th.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#432644) #
The nice thing about trading for a RH corner outfielder is that he could start in LF and also spell Springer once in a while. Better load management for Springer now might help the team come October.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 06:31 PM EDT (#432645) #
The Rays starting pitchers have really been hit with the injury bug. Now Eflin has a knee injury. The Jays may well be able to catch them in the standings over the next couple of months.
krose - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#432647) #
If this isn’t the perfect mop up spot for White, then he has no use on this roster.
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#432648) #
Kikuchi goes Hollywood.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#432649) #
Prediction - in one week, White will be with a different org or in DFA limbo.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#432650) #
Nice win. Now let's see Spencer Strider shut down Boston to extend the Jays lead in the WC race.
Petey Baseball - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 07:40 PM EDT (#432651) #
Let's see the Phillies win the series vs the O's. Jays only 5.5 back with a Baltimore loss today.

I'd say the Angels trading Ohtani as very unlikely. They aren't out of the wildcard chase yet, although the Jays can help change that with a big weekend.

More realistically but almost as exciting would....if the White Sox would be open to trading Luis Robert. It would cost a lot--less than Ohtani but it would move the needle dramatically. He'd look great hitting cleanup after Bo and Vlad the next two years, and immediately relegate Kiermaier to fourth outfielder/late game pinch runner, which would be a bit of a shame given his solid season. But Robert would be a huge upgrade.

85bluejay - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#432652) #
I guess old age is catching up to me - greenfrog sees an ok 3-3 road trip - I see "Gosh Darn" that should have been a 6-0 season changing road trip.
92-93 - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 08:14 PM EDT (#432653) #
There is lots of time left to catch your beloved Orioles, no worries. Go Jays!
hypobole - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 08:16 PM EDT (#432654) #
I would say it's far more realistic that Ohtani is traded than Robert. He has 2 club option years that run through the 2027 season.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 08:21 PM EDT (#432655) #
Oh yeah. The Orioles. Great team. A rebuild worthy of admiration.

Luis Robert is an interesting, if unlikely, trade proposal. He ranked very high (#14) on Fangraphs recent Trade Values list. Here is their writeup:

“Every year, I put Robert higher on this list than I expect to. I come into the exercise worrying about the injury risk. It’s no small matter that if he hits 100 games played this season, it’ll be a career high. I look at his approach and grimace; he’s all gas and no brakes at the plate, which leads to some scary strikeout numbers. If you think of touted prospects from the past who haven’t panned out, injuries and approach are frequent warning signs. This really shouldn’t work.

“It does, though, because Robert is just that good. He’s an elite defensive center fielder. He has 70-grade power, and he gets to it in-game because he’s adept at elevating the ball despite a voracious approach to the strike zone. When we wonder about whether someone chases too much, they don’t usually have a career 129 wRC+. There’s more than one way to be a successful hitter, and Robert clearly prioritizes putting his cacophonous power on display as often as possible. Can you blame him after seeing it in action?

“Thanks to an early-career extension, Robert is due modest salaries in 2024 and 2025. The White Sox also hold team options for the two years after that, and those are slam dunks if he keeps playing like this. The only reason he’s this low on the list is because I really do worry about his strikeouts, but maybe I’m just too afraid to go out of my hitter evaluation comfort zone.

“If you’re looking for a high-variance play, this is your guy. The downside feels very real. What if the strikeouts really get away from him? What if he plays 162 total games over the next two seasons? Are you really picking up those team options on the hope that he’ll stay on the field? His health track record can’t be hand-waved away. But the upside is also tremendous. Robert is a top-five position player in baseball right now, and if he’s healthy I don’t see that changing.”

92-93 - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#432656) #
Good on the Angels for announcing they will make a playoff push and are not dealing Ohtani. Tanking for seasons on end is completely unnecessary.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#432657) #
What does trading Ohtani have to do with tanking for seasons on end?
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#432658) #
Despite having the absolute WAR windfall that is Trout and Ohtani, the Angels haven’t made the playoffs in about a decade. They might want to try a different approach.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#432659) #
As for Ohtani, he's pitching tomorrow apparently,  instead of Friday vs the Jays.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 08:40 PM EDT (#432660) #
greenfrog, you just proved the point. Tanking for seasons on end is completely unnecessary to achieve consistent mediocrity.
92-93 - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 08:53 PM EDT (#432661) #
It indeed deserved a paragraph break, hypobole, sorry. If the Jays were 3 games back of a playoff spot in the loss column and traded the best player of all-time I’d be livid.

Ask a Pirates, Royals, or Rockies fan how they feel about their teams tank jobs right now. Heck, ask an Orioles fan who lived through 1998-2011 when they never finished .500. Good management doesn’t need to tank to achieve results. The Rays have had what, three mediocre seasons in 15 years? MLB should change the draft rules to discourage tanking.

The Jays have the same run differential as the mighty Orioles. We’ll see what happens.
electric carrot - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 09:00 PM EDT (#432662) #
I am having trouble understanding all the angst/hate about this team. Perhaps less starch in the machine when washing undergarments?
Petey Baseball - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#432663) #
Having read Passan's article about Rogers apparently being very reluctant to increase payroll, you wonder if even Robert's modest salary would be too much to take on over the next 2+ seasons. I agree it wouldn't make a ton of sense for the White Sox to trade him given the affordable contract. Then again, this is their second consecutive bad season in the face of high expectations. Tim Anderson has fallen off a cliff offensively, and Jiminez and Moncada are usually injured or under achieving. The return for Hendricks and Giolito could also stock the farm system as well.

Petey Baseball - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#432665) #
Checking up on Eloy Jiminez reveals the White Sox have recently moved him to DH virtually full-time. Interesting. The body type has not been conducive to a full season in the outfield. I'd say he'd actually be a more realistic target.
85bluejay - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 09:32 PM EDT (#432666) #
There was a story last week that said the White Sox were listening on many of their players but intended to keep Luis Robert Jr. & Eloy Jimenez.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#432667) #
92-93, I agree with you on trading Ohtani now. If they are still close at the deadline, they should be buyers, not sellers.


As for tanking. The Pirates ownership is cheap. Their previous GM was incompetent.Their player development system was in shambles. Teams can't just wish themselves to be like the Rays. The Rays have built a smart group over the years. The teams with the best PD systems hold onto their people.

The Royals (and Tigers ) were another pair of mismanaged orgs. And yes, the fans have every reason to be angry at the botch jobs.

With the Rockies, you are conflating losing and tanking. They lose a lot, but refuse to tank. They held onto Story when they had no chance of winning. They held onto Gray the following year when they had no chance of winning. They are losers, but have been the furthest thing from tankers.


Tanking is what the A's are doing,  selling off any and all players of value, not signing any quality FA.s, not even pretending to be competitive.
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 10:04 PM EDT (#432668) #
There's tanking. And then there's dignified tanking.
scottt - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 10:20 PM EDT (#432669) #
Players are non tendered because they are not good enough to justify their incoming arbitration raise.
I don't see that happening here. Biggio and Cimber and Espinal could be traded but otherwise, I expect them to stay until somebody else take their job away from them as none of them is making much.

Chapman gets a QO. I'd give one to Merrifield as well.
KK and Belt are also eligible if losing them is a concern.
Losing Ryu frees 20M.

The plan should be to move Varsho to CF and find a big bat or platoon for LF.
I wouldn't mind seeing Horwitz, Barger,  Martinez, etc get a shot.

Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 10:33 PM EDT (#432670) #
" Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing . . . Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life. "
John Northey - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 10:43 PM EDT (#432671) #
I see the Rays as a mix of keeping who they develop and trading guys in very smart deals. Free agency can only produce backup level players or finding gems in the rough for them, the Rays ain't spending $20+ mil on a player anytime soon (Franco in 2027 will be the first I think, peaks at $25 per).

No question the Angels need to hold onto Ohtani if they don't want an empty park and the owner and GM burned in effigy at the park. This winter will be interesting to see how desperately they try to hold onto him and where he ends up for how much ($600 mil over 12 years?).

The Rockies are just very poorly run, and have been most of their existence - 5 times into the playoffs, 4 other times over 500 over 31 years. 11 times sub 450 win % (90+ loss pace) vs 3 times with 90-92 wins.

The Pirates? Made the playoffs from 2013-2015 and that's it from 1993 (Bonds left after 1992) to now. Once won 82 but otherwise sub 500 every year since. Just has 3-4 top 100 prospects right now depending on what service you use, none in the top 20.

Eh, enough for now. The Jays may be frustrating but compared to those 2 we are in heaven. They aren't even in the 1994-2014 500 annual frustration, they are sucking and showing no hope.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#432672) #
Question: does anyone even now look at the two rosters and think the Orioles are the better team?


I still don't see it. IMO the two teams have similar top end hitting talent, but the orioles have more weak spots in their batting order. The Jays starting pitching is simply better than theirs, by a good margin. The Orioles do have the best 1-2 bullpen bunch in baseball, which is a nice advantage for them.
John Northey - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#432673) #
Merryfield I doubt gets a QO as he'd take it, but you never know. Chapman will get a 3-5 year deal from someone, but not here, at $20+ per I suspect so an easy QO. KK, Belt, Ryu would need to play at an insane level from here on out and be a WS MVP to get a QO I think - I could see the Jays trying to hold onto KK & Belt for 2024 if the price is right (about what they got for this year) but no more than that.
John Northey - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 10:54 PM EDT (#432674) #
Bautista has had a year for the ages - nearly 2 K per inning. But somehow has 5 blown saves with a sub 1 ERA. Yennier Cano is also having a great year, but had a 11.5 ERA last year (his first ML season) After that their pen and rotation are mostly crapshoots. Wells is having a good ERA season (115 ERA+) but his FIP is 4.89 which suggests it is mostly luck based. Almost missed Kyle Bradish - 137 ERA+ 3.52 FIP.

Basically with the 2 starters and 2 relievers I'd hate to face the O's in a Wild Card series (best of 3) but they really aren't as good as their record suggests. They are 7 wins over what their Runs allowed/scored say they should be. Jays pretty much dead on, 1 win above expected. But baseball isn't fair, so I wouldn't be shocked if the O's win the division this year. 2 spots are ideal - win the division or get the last WC slot. WC 1/2 means you face each other in a tough series, 3rd WC means you face the Twins or Cleveland.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 26 2023 @ 11:49 PM EDT (#432679) #
O's have a better manager and better GM. That makes a big difference.
hypobole - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 12:01 AM EDT (#432680) #
Angels ain't waiting for the deadline. Just traded for Giolito and Lopez from the ChiSox.
hypobole - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 12:13 AM EDT (#432681) #
Looks like Giolito will pitch for the Angels against the Jays - he was scheduled to go Friday.
dalimon5 - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 12:14 AM EDT (#432682) #
That's a terrible trade. Anaheim needs to pass one of the Astros, Blue Jays or Rays for final WC. Yikes.
Nigel - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 12:18 AM EDT (#432683) #
You wouldn’t want to face the Angels in a three game WC series. As I’ve said for a while now, teams face a quandary (sometimes) over roster building between that for the regular season versus roster building for a 1-2-3 games in a playoff scenario. The two are not always the same exercise.
Michael - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 04:02 AM EDT (#432684) #
I think Merrifield is worth the QO. A 1 year deal at between 18-21 M (depending where exactly the QO amount lands) seems a reasonable deal for him (assuming he is healthy at the end of the year and continues to play at or above the current level). 1 year deals never really hurt and he's got the position flexibility and the skills. He's had many years where he's worth more than that, and he's roughly on track to be worth that this year, so a 1-year deal for that amount is an OK deal. And of course he may well not accept in which case you are better to have offered than not. So I think it is win-win.
lexomatic - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 08:21 AM EDT (#432685) #
Why are we talking Merrifield QO when he has an option for less (that people were debating the value of for a while).
Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 08:44 AM EDT (#432686) #
$18 million mutual option, with a $500 k buyout.
hypobole - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 08:45 AM EDT (#432687) #
It's a mutual option. Very rare those are ever exercised, about one in 20.
greenfrog - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 09:08 AM EDT (#432688) #
My guess is that all four of Chapman, Merrifield, Kiermaier and Ryu will depart via free agency. That seems to be this front office’s style (see Semien, Ray, Matz, Cecil).

This also makes me believe they’re trying hard to trade for a quality outfielder who will be controllable through at least 2024. PeterG mentioned Luis Robert as someone who could be a trade target along these lines (although after the several years of Randal Grichuk, I have to say that players who strike out 30% of the time make me nervous).
hypobole - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 09:19 AM EDT (#432689) #
This is interesting. Who are these guys?

Pitcher A: 3.79 ERA,  4.49 xERA,  4.79 FIP,  4.00 xFIP
Pitcher B: 3.79 ERA,  4.46 xERA,  4.46 FIP,  4.33 xFIP
Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 09:21 AM EDT (#432690) #
Pitcher A is Kikuchi?
dalimon5 - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 09:26 AM EDT (#432691) #
Well of course it's going to be Giolito.
hypobole - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 09:27 AM EDT (#432692) #
And B is as per Passan at ESPN "arguably the best pitcher on the trade market"
greenfrog - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 09:56 AM EDT (#432693) #
The Angels have a lot riding on their upcoming series with the Blue Jays. If the Jays sweep them, they’re going to feel pretty silly about trading for Giolito and about not trading Ohtani.
bpoz - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 10:00 AM EDT (#432694) #
I remember after the 2015 trade deadline the Jays won a lot. Maybe played close to .700 ball. If LAA can do this they could make the playoffs.
mathesond - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 10:30 AM EDT (#432698) #
Wonder what the Cards would want for the Jordans Montgomery & Hicks.
dalimon5 - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#432699) #
Strange thing happened to me. I watched some of the game yesterday and something just clicked. I now believe in this team to go as far as 2016. I can't explain it I just feel that this team is performing at its worst and they're fighting for a playoff spot. I don't know what needs to be done but a few adjustments and this team can go deep. I'm all in and will reserve judgement and wrath until end of season.
hypobole - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#432700) #
Wonder what the Cards would want for the Jordans Montgomery & Hicks.

Why?
Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#432701) #
So, the Mary Brown's Chicken commercial features Manoah & Springer enjoying the Batter's Box meal deal.

Indeed, poaching ideas and strategy from this forum for years, now they just take our proprietary name. Chutzpah!

Management ought to provide us (free-of-charge) a luxury suite / group space for a game, so we can have that get-together.

Attn: to the front-office intern reading this - pass it along, will you?

Glevin - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 10:52 AM EDT (#432703) #
Just looking at the significant deadline deals Atkins has done.
Merrifield-Was skeptical at the time but fantastic trade.
Bass/Pop-Good to trade Groshans while he still had value and I still like Pop and Duran as PTBNL looks interesting.
Mitch White-De Jesus looks OK but trading a top prospect for a crappy swingman is a bad deal.
Berrios-Both prospects Jays traded have pretty much lost all value and Jays re-signed Berrios so good trade.
Robby Ray-Fantastic trade obviously.
Stripling-Was great for the Jays. Noda has value so sort of a wash.
Derek Fisher-Surprisingly also a wash. Fisher was bad but none of guys they traded have any value.
Stroman for Kay and Woods-Richardson-Stroman only pitched 1 year+ with Mets and Jays flipped SWR for Berrios but not a great return.
Happ trade-Even though Drury eventually became player Jays thought he would be, this was a trade I always hated. It's OK to trade for prospects sometimes. You don't always need to get mediocre major leaguers!
Osuna for Giles-A miracle they could trade Osuna and get something good back.
Teoscar trade-One of the better ones in franchise history.
Liriano-Jays got Liriano, Harold Ramirez, and Reese McGuire for Hutchison. Since the trade, the players the Jays receiver have 7.9 WAR vs Hutchison's -0.2 WAR

I'd say overall, trades have been quite good. Only 2 I really didn't like and some great ones. Very few involving prospects. Mostly major leaguers or players close to the majors.
hypobole - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 12:23 PM EDT (#432705) #
Someone mentioned Elias of the O's being better than Atkins. What's made Elias seem so good are 2 things. 1 is the long rebuild with a lot of high picks. And in conjunction with that is his Scouting Director hitting on more than a few of those high picks.

Glevin pointed out Atkin's trades, some that didn't work for the Jays. Well Elias has had those as well.

Machado, Gausman, Cobb, Givens, Miguel Castro, Yaztremski were all traded by Elias. What value to the O's was derived by any of these trades?

The trade for Cano, which was panned at last years deadline,  is looking great in hindsight. But what other good trades has he made?
bpoz - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 12:50 PM EDT (#432706) #
I don't know how good TB really is.

TB, Baltimore and Toronto are now about equal, lets assume. Baltimore got the high draft picks for many years. TB makes great trades by trading away star players and receiving young players that turn into stars. Toronto bought their way to success. Ryu, Gausman, Bassit and Springer are $20mil/yr.

Now that they are equal, can they stay equal? IMO Baltimore will buy expensive FA pitching. TB will succeed every now and then. They will not spend to succeed. Toronto wants elite talent that is cheap (prospects) because the payroll will not keep increasing, yet they want to win because it generates revenue IMO.

The 2020 draft gave Toronto the #5 pick for 5 rounds rather than 20 rounds. A Martin probably got about 60-70% of the draft budget I think.
greenfrog - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 12:53 PM EDT (#432707) #
Long rebuild? Elias was hired in November of 2018. The O’s became a contending team in 2022, they’re currently in first place in the AL East, and they’re absolutely stacked with good prospects in the minors. That is swift work, in my view.

Agreed that Atkins has done reasonably well on the trade front. Where the front office has excelled is in making astute free agent signings, including Semien, Gausman, Springer, Kiermaier, Bassitt, and (it’s true!) Kikuchi. The Berrios extension was also a bit like a FA signing.
John Northey - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#432708) #
Excellent point hypobole. Baltimore has had a bit of luck / skill at drafts (high picks, high hit ratio). Of note though, since 2013 when they drafted Gausman, Adley Rutschman is the only 1st rounder that has 4+ WAR so far. Top 11 pick in 2018/19/20/21/22 (#1 in 22/19, #2 in 20). From 2006-2012 they had a top 10 pick every year, top 5 for 07-12.

No question, high picks have helped the O's, without them they might have been really bad ... er ... 15+ games out every year after EE's homer in 2016 until this year, 4th or 5th in the AL East. Yeah. I think I prefer the Jays method.
John Northey - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#432709) #
Of note: last time the Jays had a top 2 pick was 1982 (the infamous Augie Schmidt). In the 2000's top 10 picks were 2020 (Austin Martin), 2005 (Ricky Romero), 2014 (Jeff Hoffman), and 2013 (Phil Bickford). The best top 10 picks the Jays ever made were Lloyd Moseby (1978, 2nd overall) and Vernon Wells (1997 5th overall). So high picks aren't a lock to make you a winner even here in Toronto (look at KC, Pittsburgh, Colorado for more proof of flops with high picks).
greenfrog - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#432710) #
It should also be noted that the O’s have surpassed the Jays (for now) with a payroll that is a fraction of the Jays payroll, around $91m versus $211m.
hypobole - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 01:30 PM EDT (#432711) #
I'm going to start with a mea culpa.
When I first googled Elias this morning, up popped a Fansided article on Elias worst trades. I used that as the source for my post.  Big mistake. Fansided is awful and once again proved why. Elias was hired after the 2018 season. Machado was traded at the 2018 deadline when Duquette was GM.
The rebuild basically started at the 2018 deadline. They had lost in 2017 as well, but were not really trying to. There were 3 total 100 loss seasons plus the shortened 2020.  Now that's not long compared to the Royals or Tigers, but if it the Jays had done that, who would say that wasn't a long rebuild?
hypobole - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#432712) #
Jays had a low payroll in 2020 as well when most of their best players were pre-arb.
jerjapan - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#432713) #
FWIW, I don't think White should be the 26th man.  I just think it's how the org views the bullpen depth chart. 

He's the Nathan Lukes of the pitching staff, except without options. 

So McCoy is going to play SS with Barger out in RF more often? 

That position switch makes sense on a lot of levels.  It sure does sound like he could be a good glove in RF.  And from an org-depth perspective, we have more upper level IF talent than OF. 

Barger's had a rough year, but if he's turned a corner, he's going to get big league time by September. 
greenfrog - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#432716) #
Well, someone is all fired up about the Giolito trade. Ohtani is pitching a one-hit shutout against the Tigers through 7 IP in game one of today’s doubleheader. Like I said, big series coming up in Toronto starting tomorrow.
John Northey - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#432717) #
Ohtani got the shutout. His first complete game in the majors. Hopefully he is tired tomorrow and can't hit well :)

I suspect to Ohtani the Angels doing that trade was a sign he has been waiting for - one that says 'yes, we are serious', ala Halladay in the playoffs with Philly all those years ago. Let's hope he doesn't go nuts this weekend.
Chuck - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 04:31 PM EDT (#432718) #
I don't think that Ohtani is likely to re-sign with the Angels but had they traded him I believe the chances would have become 0%, particularly when he had expressed a desire to not be traded.

I'm glad that he has found his pitching mojo again, albeit against a limp noodle offense. The sport is best served when his unicorn level is set to 11.

uglyone - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#432719) #
I applaud the angels having some sort of organizational pride.

Trading ohtani would be absolutely pathetic and, what's worse, 98% likely futile anyways.
Chuck - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#432720) #
I don't know how good TB really is.

Their early season success had, as contributing factors, a relatively easy schedule and a whole pile of hitters over-producing. This all helped to offset the injuries suffered by their SP. And now Eflin may be injured, adding to the misery.

They now face the most difficult remaining schedule which will further exacerbate their current woes, unless the offense somehow comes alive again.

I believe that the organization is terrific at finding talent other teams have abandoned, and Cash is skilled at deploying what talent he has on hand. There is much to admire in the organization and I am a genuine fan, but they were probably never the juggernaut they seemed in the first half. They could still win the division, and are almost certainly playoff bound, but they are definitely mortals.

Chuck - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#432721) #
Hopefully he is tired tomorrow and can't hit well :)

He's so exhausted that he hit a HR in game two of the doubleheader.

Hodgie - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 06:00 PM EDT (#432723) #
Make that 2 HRs for Ohtani. Here's hoping he hits a couple more and is so exhausted he can't raise his arms tomorrow.
greenfrog - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#432724) #
This weekend will be yet another test as to whether the Jays can avoid having their opponent’s standout slugger (Judge, Mountcastle, Ohtani) singlehandedly beat them.

I’m OK with some strategic bases on balls.

ISLAND BOY - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#432725) #
The Red Sox have a record of 14-5 for the month of July and are 1st in team batting average and OPS in MLB for that time. After the series with the Angels, the Jays face Baltimore and then Boston. These will be important games.
Waveburner - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#432726) #
Boston's lineup looks pretty scary right now.

Duran seems to have emerged as an elite leadoff hitter. Justin Turner remains almost ageless. Yoshida has been a brilliant signing. Devers is great. Tristan Casas has recovered from a slow start and has a higher OPS than Vladdy. Duvall is having a career year and Verdugo is a solid hitter as well.

Given how the first 7 games against them went, I'm not looking forward to that series.
greenfrog - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#432727) #
The AL WC race is going to be intense. Tampa, Houston, Toronto, Boston, NYY all have a shot. The Angels are a dark horse but you can’t rule them out, especially if they can play well for the next few weeks and Trout recovers quickly.

As I’ve said before, the right deadline moves could be the difference between making the postseason and missing it. I think the Jays could use a savvy acquisition or two to propel them forward over the next couple of months.
scottt - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#432728) #
Houston is almost guaranteed to be in.
The Angels would have to make several moves to be a serious candidate.
Boston can easily improve pitching.
The Yankees have holes to plug everywhere.
uglyone - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#432729) #
Fangraphs Combined Depth Charts Rest of Season Projections:

wRC+

* Guerrero 140 --- Yoshida 133 --- Rutschman 125
* Bichette 124 --- Devers 131 ---- Henderson 119
* Springer 122 --- Casas 119 ----- Santander 114
* Chapman 118 ---- Turner 118 ---- Mountcastel 108
* Kirk 116 ------- Verdugo 111 --- Mullins 108
* Belt 115 ------- Duran 99 ------ Hays 105
* Varsho 105 ----- Duvall 99 ----- O'Hearn 104
* Merrifield 96 -- Story 97 ------ Urias 99
* Kiermaier 92 --- Wong 90 ------- Cowser 98

* Jansen 109 ----- Reyes 89 ------ Westburg 99
* Biggio 101 ----- Arroyo 87 ----- Frazier 96
* Espinal 95 ----- McGuire 79 ---- McCann 80
vw_fan17 - Thursday, July 27 2023 @ 10:29 PM EDT (#432730) #
* Varsho 105 ----- Duvall 99 ----- O'Hearn 104
* Merrifield 96 -- Story 97 ------ Urias 99

Anyone want to bet the BattersBox slushfund (i.e. 3 or 4 cuttlefish, IIRC) that Merrifield will outproduce Varsho the rest of the way? Heck, if I could get decent odds, I'd throw in a few $$ myself..
dalimon5 - Friday, July 28 2023 @ 12:04 AM EDT (#432731) #
Are we still pretending baseball players are one dimensional offense-only players? Where's the love for defence?
Leaside Cowboy - Friday, July 28 2023 @ 08:27 AM EDT (#432732) #
Where's the love for defence?

Ohtani is one-of-a-kind, no doubt about it. Yet, when the GOAT conversation pops up, playing defence tends to be overlooked. Willie Mays playing centre-field for 154 games has comparable value to a pitcher making 32 starts, one could argue.

Leaside Cowboy - Friday, July 28 2023 @ 08:57 AM EDT (#432733) #
games played home / road:

Baltimore - 50 / 52
Tampa Bay - 56 / 49
Toronto - 47 / 56
Boston - 53 / 49
New York - 56 / 46

bpoz - Friday, July 28 2023 @ 09:04 AM EDT (#432734) #
Thanks dalimon5 for bringing up defense. Successful managers and FOs know the value of that. There was mention a while back of star players playing out of position on some struggling teams. SD I think.

I would love for a discussion to happen about this. I remember EE making errors at 3B. Some OF that too often could not catch the ball. Then there are saving runs with brilliant defensive plays.

The pitchers love good D as well. I remember defensive errors upsetting Dave Stieb.
uglyone - Friday, July 28 2023 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#432737) #
vw_fan17 here's last 1 calendar year for more context:


* Bichette 144 --- Yoshida 138 --- Rustchman 130
* Chapman 123 ---- Turner 134 ---- Henderson 122
* Vladdy 121 ----- Casas 125 ----- Santander 121
* Jansen 119 ----- Verdugo 117 --- Hays 104
* Springer 112 --- Devers 115 ---- Mountcastle 95
* Merrifield 113 - Duran 114 ----- Frazier 93
* Belt 107 ------- McGuire 108 --- Urias 92
* Varsho 90 ------ Arroyo 95 ----- Mateo 76
* Kiermaier* 114 -- Refsnyder* 116 - O'Hearn* 136

* Kirk 89 -------- Wong 90 ------- McCann 55
* Biggio 83 ------ Duvall 123 ---- Westburg 102
* Espinal 79 ----- Chang 80 ------ McKenna 85


The asterisk row is the "starter" on each team that hasn't really been close to a full time starter over the sample, each with well under 300pa over that time.

I guess Boston is still expecting Trevor Story back at some point.
uglyone - Friday, July 28 2023 @ 11:08 AM EDT (#432739) #


* Varsho 388pa, 74wrc+, 0.8war, 1.3war/650pa
* Moreno 244pa, 82wrc+, 0.4war, 1.1war/650pa

* Kiermaier 275pa, 114wrc+, 1.9war, 4.5war/650pa
* Gurriel 376pa, 99wrc+, 1.0war, 1.7war/650pa

* Belt 276pa, 122wrc+, 1.0war, 2.4war/650pa
* Teoscar 427pa, 95wrc+, 0.7war, 1.1war/650pa

* Lukes 25pa, 67wrc+, 0.1war, 2.6war/650pa
* Tapia 158pa, 77wrc+, 0.1war, 0.4war/650pa
uglyone - Friday, July 28 2023 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#432740) #
* Bassitt 22gms, 5.8ip/gm, 92era-, 106fip-, 103xfip-, 1.5war, 2.2war/32gms
* Stripling 15gms, 3.9ip/gm, 135era-, 127fip-, 87xfip-, -0.2war, -0.3war/32gms


* Swanson 48gms, 1.0ip/gm, 85era-, 88fip-, 97xfip-, 0.6war, 0.8war/65gms
* Merryweather 44gms, 1.0ip/gm, 89era-, 75fip-, 86xfip-, 0.5war, 0.7war/65gms

92-93 - Friday, July 28 2023 @ 11:14 AM EDT (#432741) #
Regarding Pitcher A: before the Angels became buyers, I wondered if they might me more interested in players like Kikuchi, Kirk, Biggio, Garcia, and Espinal instead of prospects. A team like the Cubs, Padres, or Indians may be willing to lose on talent to gain some control while still going for it.
Nigel - Friday, July 28 2023 @ 11:23 AM EDT (#432744) #
I know I’ve been in a minority here but it hasn’t been clear to me all year that the Jays are a better team than the Red Sox. Now, with the injuries to the Sox pitching and the Jays lead in the standings I’d bet on the Jays but it’s no sure thing in mm view. The remaining games with the Sox are probably playoff games.
uglyone - Friday, July 28 2023 @ 11:48 AM EDT (#432747) #
I guess what you think about Boston comes down to what you think about Paxton and Sale, both of whom have already had their healthiest seasons since 2019, even though neither have actually been healthy, and Sale might not make it back.

I think they've already been pretty fortunate to get what they've got from those 2 so far.

Bello looks solid at least. But after him the rotation seems to be the definition of patchwork.
vw_fan17 - Friday, July 28 2023 @ 01:30 PM EDT (#432753) #
Are we still pretending baseball players are one dimensional offense-only players? Where's the love for defence?
The posted stats don't include defense, obviously. Hence, my statement regarding the OFFENSIVE projections. I don't believe that Varsho will OUTHIT Merrifield over the rest of the season. That's not saying he'll be less valuable - he's currently at 2.0 WAR in 101 games, Whitt is at 1.5 WAR in 94 games. Not that far apart, actually..
John Northey - Friday, July 28 2023 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#432756) #
The key to the AL East will be who plays best from here on out. The Jays have the most talent but have played below it all year. The Rays/Red Sox/Orioles have all played better than expected due to a mix of luck and kids developing quickly - counting on that to continue isn't a good idea, but with 3 of them doing that one is bound to keep it up. The Yankees have had injuries and are a one player team it seems (30-19 with Judge, 24-29 without) - well, 2 man with Gerrit Cole (152 ERA+ over 21 starts team 15-6).
vw_fan17 - Friday, July 28 2023 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#432758) #
vw_fan17 here's last 1 calendar year for more context:

...
* Merrifield 113 - Duran 114 ----- Frazier 93
* Varsho 90 ------ Arroyo 95 ----- Mateo 76

Exactly - hence my contention that I just don't see Varsho OUTHITTING Merrifield over the last 60 games.. Sure, it's POSSIBLE, but Varsho's BEST year was a normal year for Whitt.

I really hoping last year wasn't Varsho's career year for WAR - I see that based on aging studies, CF defense starts to decline after age 25 - and guess what, he's 26 this year. Meaning, sure, he'll probably still have great defense for 2-3 years, but if he doesn't have much oWAR to lose, he'll be our new Otis Nixon..
Nigel - Friday, July 28 2023 @ 07:24 PM EDT (#432783) #
He’s not Otis Nixon, he’s Kevin Pillar.
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