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Big series? 

I suppose. But it's still just late July. Lots of baseball yet to be played.


A remark by greenfrog in the last Game Thread caught my attention. In its entirety...

One question worth considering is: how rare/special is the opportunity the Blue Jays currently have to win the division and advance deep into the postseason? The last time the team had a similar shot at winning the division was a decade ago. If this is a chance that may not come around again for a while, then it might be worth making an extra push to add an impact player or two at the trade deadline.

I cast my mind back to 2015, and my first thought was this - was Anthopoulos really thinking about winning the division? Were they even close? Hadn't they been in a better position the year before? Hadn't they let that deadline go by with no activity at all to speak of. (Indeed, they had.) I had always figured Anthopoulos was focused on other things besides winning the division in late July 2015. The first thing on his mind had to be his own future in the game. New management was coming to town. Anthopoulos was about two months away from becoming Gord Ash. And he had to be concerned about the age of his roster. Mark Buehrle was two months away from the end of his contract (and his career), R.A. Dickey was already 40 years old, and Jose Bautista was two months short of turning 35 (and in the midst of his last great season, as it turned out.). It was getting pretty close to Now-or-Never time. Roll them dice!

But I thought I should take a look, just to be sure. SO down the rabbit hole I went.

The modern trade deadline, July 31, goes back to the 1986 season (it had been June 15 for decades before.) We are ten days away, and how is how your Toronto Blue Jays have stood ten days shy of the deadline each and every year:

Year  Record Position GBL

1986  50-44  5th  8.5 
1987  54-38  2nd  3.0 
1988  47-48  6th  9.5 
1989  46-49  4th  8.0 

1990  50-43  2nd  0.5 
1991  55-37  1st
1992  56-36  1st
1993  52-43  2nd  0.5 
1994  43-50  4th  13.5 
1995  32-44  5th  11.0 
1996  43-54  4th  16.0 
1997  45-49  3rd  12.5 
1998  50-50  3rd  22.0 
1999  51-45  3rd  6.0 

2000  52-45  2nd  0.5 
2001  46-51  3rd  10.5 
2002  42-54  4th  18.5 
2003  51-48  3rd  11.0 
2004  40-53  5th  18.5 
2005  47-47  4th  5.0 
2006  53-42  3rd  5.5 
2007  46-50  3rd  11.0 
2008  48-50  4th  9.5 
2009  46-47  4th  11.0 

2010  48-46  4th  11.0 
2011  49-49  4th  11.0 
2012  46-47  5th  11.0 
2013  45-51  5th  12.5 
2014  51-48  2nd  3.0 
2015  47-47  3rd  4.5 
2016  54-42  3rd  1.0 
2017  44-51  5th  9.0 
2018  44-52  4th  23.5 
2019  38-62  4th  27.5 

2020 ---------
2021  48-43  3rd  7.0 
2022  50-43  3rd  14.5 
2023  54-43  3rd  5.5 
2024  45-54  5th  15.5 
2025  58-41  1st

First place? It's unusual enough for the Blue Jays to be in second place this late in the season. It's happened just twice since the championship years. Once was 2014, when the Jays were three games back of the Orioles on this date. They would win six in a row to close out the month and were in second place, 1.5 games back, by the end of July. But they didn't do much at the deadline on that occasion (they traded Liam Hendriks and Erik Kratz to the Royals for Danny Valencia) and they played like a Very Disappointed Group afterward, losing 16 of their next 22 to fall right out of the race.

The other time was 2000, Jim Fregosi's second (and final) year in the dugout. On this date, the Jays were just half a game behind the Yankees. Well, sort of - they were four games back in the loss column, having managed to play 97 games to that point (the Yankees had only played 90.) But the Jays were obviously in contention, and Gord Ash went to work. The 2000 team had a league average offense, with a couple of obvious holes n the lineup. In the last ten days before the deadline, both right fielder Raul Mondesi and second baseman Homer Bush would suffer season-ending injuries. The bigger problem was the pitching, which, once you got past David Wells, was pretty lousy. 

So Ash went out and got himself a pair of starting pitchers. He traded pitcher Darwin Cubillan and a minor league shortstop named Michael Young to Texas for Esteban Loaiza. He traded minor league second baseman Brent Abernathy to Tampa Bay for Steve Trachsel and LH reliever Mark Guthrie. A few days later, he picked up Dave Martinez from Texas to replace Mondesi in right field. Utility man Craig Grebeck took over as the everyday second baseman, just as he had the year before when the team discovered Tony Fernandez could no longer play in the middle of the infield.

But in those last ten days before the deadline, the team went 3-7, to fall 4.5 games off the pace. They had a decent August (15-11), but the Yankees had a better one. And then the Jays simply stopped hitting in September. Loaiza and Trachsel did stabilize the pitching staff, and Martinez and Grebeck played as well as anyone could have wished. But it wasn't enough, and the opportunity was there. The Yankees would win the division with an 87-74 record.

Anyway, greenfrog's central point - the Blue Jays haven't often been competing for the division as the deadline approaches certainly stands up. It's life in the AL East.

Matchups!

Mon 21 July - Rodon (10-6, 3.08) vs Gausman (6-7, 4.19)
Tue 22 July - Schittler (1-0, 5.06) vs Scherzer (1-0, 4.70)
Wed 23 July - Fried (11-3, 2.43) vs Bassitt (10-4, 3.89)
New York at Toronto, July 21-23 | 185 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Glevin - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#464026) #
Santander still weeks away from swinging a bat which is basically out for year.
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#464027) #
I’m hoping for 2 wins. That would give the Jays the season series in the event of a tie.
pooks137 - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#464028) #
The modern trade deadline, July 31, goes back to the 1986 season (it had been June 15 for decades before.)

TIL about the pre-1986 June 15th trade deadline, a full six weeks before the modern version.

Combined with the fact that the modern season starts much earlier than the 1980s seasons did, that would equate to a deadline almost two months ahead of the current iteration.

Not sure if the August waiver trading period existed in the 80s as it did in the modern game up until relatively recently. Which would at least allow a little bit more emergency flexibility for injuries and poor performance.

Magpie - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#464029) #
that would equate to a deadline almost two months ahead of the current iteration.

Indeed. For example, at the deadline in 1976, the Orioles and Yankees made an enormous trade. The Yankees got Ken Holtzman and Doyle Alexander (a pending free agent) along with LH reliever Grant Jackson and backup catcher Elrod Hendricks. Holtzman and Alexander went straight into the rotation. The Orioles got quality LH starter Rudy May; they also got LH reliever Tippy Martinez, backup catcher Rick Dempsey (who became the regular in Baltimore) and a couple of pitching prospects, one of whom turned out to be Scott McGregor.

An enormous deal. And both teams still had more than 100 games left to play.
pooks137 - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#464030) #
I've been banging on the long reliever drum all season long. Or the lack thereof.

TBH, I'd forgotten about Robinson Pina still being on the roster. But I'm still disappointed he's been dispatched.

The Jays are once again running without a multi-inning reliever for mop up duty and early exits for the starters.

I hope they at least keep Pina stretched out in Buffalo for some very deep SP depth. He's a waste as yet another middling middle reliever or some sort of 2-inning hybrid like they sort of did with Schultz.
greenfrog - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#464031) #
Excellent pitching by Gausman to Grisham, Judge and Chisholm T1. He changed speeds and location effectively. 10 pitches, three up, three down (2 Ks). Doesn’t get much better than that.
92-93 - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 07:17 PM EDT (#464032) #
All-righty lineup tonight against the southpaw Rodon, except Loperfido who has handled lefties well the last couple of years in the minors. I guess they'll give Kirky off tomorrow vs. the righty.

Fisher and Nance are probably down tonight, but the rest of the bullpen should be available. Every member of the Yankees pen has thrown at least 27 pitches over the last 3 days, and their closer has thrown 20 & 18 the last couple of days. Both clubs will be looking to get into the bullpen early, so it's important to have quality ABs.
greenfrog - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 07:22 PM EDT (#464033) #
Rodon was sharp in the first inning. 7 pitches to get three outs.
SK in NJ - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 07:51 PM EDT (#464034) #
Santander doesn't appear close to coming back. I think you have to add a bat at the deadline, even if it's just a platoon one.
greenfrog - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 08:14 PM EDT (#464035) #
Suarez would look pretty good in the middle of this Blue Jays lineup…
Gerry - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 08:41 PM EDT (#464036) #
I have yet to see a team this season who plays defense as good as the Jays do.
Marc Hulet - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 08:45 PM EDT (#464037) #
There's been a bit of a New York friendly strike zone so far.

Great AB by Schneider... he had a month's worth of Ernie Clement's ABs in one plate appearance against Rodon.
Magpie - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#464038) #
Did I hear that right? It sounded like Siddall, describing Peraza reacting to Straw busting it up the line, said "Holy F**k!"

I must have misheard it!
Magpie - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#464039) #
Or is it Caleb? I get the two of them mixed up all the time.
Katie - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 09:20 PM EDT (#464040) #
It was Caleb.

And I heard it, too.
92-93 - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#464041) #
Why was Gausman pulled from this game?
Magpie - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#464042) #
Why was Gausman pulled from this game?

Schneider insists on taking care of his veteran starters.
greenfrog - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 09:30 PM EDT (#464043) #
Boston lost 3-2 to Philly in 10 innings. So a chance for Toronto to create some additional separation from the teams chasing them for the division lead.
99BlueJaysWay - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 09:55 PM EDT (#464044) #
Great win! So many great contributions! I cannot believe this team!
James W - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#464045) #
Not only did Boston lose, but they possibly found the dumbest way to lose a game: a walk-off catcher's interference.
Hodgie - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#464046) #
Looks like the Allstar break did Hoffman a world of good.
Glevin - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 10:14 PM EDT (#464047) #
Hoffman looking like his April self. Huge win. Keep rolling over those Yankees!
pooks137 - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 10:14 PM EDT (#464048) #
Was reading on MLBTR that the Dodgers pitched Lou Trivino 3 nights in a row against the Brewers then DFAed him today. Ouch.

I checked as well. All 3 appearances were proper 4-5 batters faced, 15-20 pitch outings. No single digit pitch one out Houdini call upons.

Trivino is 33 and had a 3.76 ERA with the Dodgers upon dismissal.

The broadcast has made such a big deal that the Jays won't let any of their relievers pitch 3 days in a row.

While it doesn't seem advisable, how many teams in the league hold to the Jays hard & fast rule vs those that will go their pen thrice when needed?
scottt - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 10:35 PM EDT (#464049) #
Apparently the Jays have approached the Orioles about Soto and Dominguez.
John Northey - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 11:05 PM EDT (#464050) #
Yankee fans must be going nuts about now. This is so much fun. A lot like '85 when the Jays had to beat the Yankees for the division. A lot of differences, but the joy and fun is there. Everyone contributing, even Jimenez which shocked me.
hypobole - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 11:13 PM EDT (#464051) #
Jays win 11 in a row at home for the 1st time ever, breaking their 40 year old Exhibition Stadium record.
hypobole - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 11:41 PM EDT (#464052) #
The 3 games in a row I remember was Ken Giles coming back from injury which promptly landed him on the IL again shortly before the trade deadline in 2019. Montoyo.
Magpie - Monday, July 21 2025 @ 11:51 PM EDT (#464053) #
While it doesn't seem advisable, how many teams in the league hold to the Jays hard & fast rule vs those that will go their pen thrice when needed?

I've actually looked into this twice over the decades! Wayback in 2007, I began to suspect that John Gibbons was reluctant to use a reliever three games in a row. And by the standards pf 2007, it was true - he'd done so just 6 times all year. Meanwhile Joe Maddon has used someone three games in a row 23 times, a bunch of others four games in a row and twice he had Shawn Camp pitch in five straight ganes.

Fifteen years later, when I happened to be looking again, it had almost vanished from the entire league, which used a reliever three games in a row just 19 times. Fifteen teams, more than a thousand games.

That was in 2022, and I can't imagine it's grown more common since.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 08:45 AM EDT (#464054) #
The 2025 Blue Jays team on July 22 (great record; modest run differential) is an interesting contrast with the 2015 Blue Jays team on July 22 (.500 record; strong run differential).

Yes, the 2025 team has been good for quite a while. (Incidentally, on June 6, I mentioned that "the MLB team is looking pretty good" and "the present and the future are starting to look bright again"; I think many of us felt that way at the time. The team has since gone 26-12, a .684 winning percentage). But it still might be a good idea to power up with a couple of impact additions to put the team over the top this year. As Magpie confirmed with historical data, these opportunities to have a dominant season don't come around for Toronto very often.
mathesond - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 09:04 AM EDT (#464055) #
Apropos of nothing, Defector had an interesting column yesterday about phantom players - players that had been called up to the majors but never got into a game. old friend Brian Jeroloman is name-checked. It's paywalled, but I believe non-subscribers are allowed 3 free articles.
Ryan Day - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 09:22 AM EDT (#464056) #
Why was Gausman pulled from this game?

The Yankees top of the order was due up in the 8th. Normally I'm a fan of letting starters pitch longer, but also can't blame Schneider for not wanting to see if Gausman was starting to get tired vs Judge et al with only a 3-run lead.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#464058) #
Seems to be some rumblings on social media about Gregory Soto. I could see the Jays acquiring him. They are probably looking for a 2nd high leverage LH reliever to take some pressure away from Little, and Soto has a similar profile. Dominguez wouldn't be a bad option either, but I think you try to aim a little higher to add a 1A closer to pair with Hoffman. If the Jays could pull off something like Bednar plus Soto, then the pen starts to look playoff ready, especially if Garcia can get healthy as well.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 10:16 AM EDT (#464059) #
Seems like most (fans and pundits) are expecting this FO to acquire either:

A) 1-2 very good RP arms to pair with Hoffman and 1 ace or very strong #2 SP like Ryan to head the rotation with Gausman

or

B) 1-2 very good RP arms to pair with Hoffman and 1 impact power bat like Suarez to put behind Vlad

Short of that I expect most to be disappointed with the deadline acquisitions. My dream is Kwan and Smith from Cleveland and Duran from Minnesota. I'd trade out Yesavage, Nimalla Tiedemann, Stephen, Roden and Schneider for that.
hypobole - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 10:18 AM EDT (#464060) #
The 2015 team is still viewed as a huge success in Toronto, because it was. The deadline moves turned it into a juggernaut.

But it's also a bit of a cautionary tale. A good part of the success by fans standards is rooted in the fact the Jays hadn't even made the playoffs in 22 years. That juggernaut ended up winning 5 playoff games and never even made the World Series. Would that team be considered a success and so fondly remembered in New York or LA?



dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#464061) #
Speaking of LA I just read that their closer was injured. So year, basically they will trade for the top relief arm or two and then the rest of the contenders will fight for whatever remains.

Bad news for Toronto.
scottt - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#464062) #
Soto is great against left bats but just average against right bats. He'd be a huge improvement as second lefty. Dominguez is deadly against right bats, but bad against left bats. Useful, but in small doses.

The Jays already have Rodriguez.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 10:50 AM EDT (#464063) #
Breaking: Jays interested in Keller.

I think I'm just going to stop looking for updates and just follow Passan.
Marc Hulet - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 10:59 AM EDT (#464064) #
Trade deadline and winter meetings are especially the times to ignore anyone but the legit journalists. Most rumors are fake or blown out of proportion.

There really aren't a lot of big names truly available. Mostly it's only impending FAs and impact names from that group are few.

The Jays will likely focus on the pen and depth.
scottt - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#464065) #
Those Yankees games are just like the postseason. Maximum pressure. Guys who do the job here are good enough.
earlweaverfan - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#464066) #
Hypobole, I agree about the cautionary tale. Even when the near-term odds seem the best (relatively) that they’ve been in recent memory, the absolute odds can often still be against us. But the only downside of going “all-in” is if you so badly mortgage your future for the subsequent years, that you end up feeling that the price you paid wasn’t worth the short-term opportunity you bet on. Of course, I would regret having our team uncompetitive in years 26 to 28, but I feel the demonstrated willingness of Rogers to pony up for free agents could mitigate that risk.

And if we do make the World Series this year - yes, a big if - the ancillary benefits are prolific. Free agents (and their agents) will take us more seriously. Many of these will sign up to be a part of the mystical brand. Total viewership will continue to grow nationwide. Our draft picks, like this year, will all sign with us to enlist with this amazing success story. In a city where hockey still reigns supreme, baseball could rise to the top of the public interest league tables once again.

After we won the NBA for just one year, even though our star was just a one-year rental, I heard very few regrets. Even if we had not made those finals, so many people I know were so excited to be a part of the wave which that signing created.

One more thing; for years I have hoped that the Jays would recruit the best available hitting coaches. For years, I have also wondered when someone would invent a coaching machine that accurately mimics each distinctive pitch type of each opposing pitcher. This year we have both these assets and I am very hopeful that this helps explain how our bottom 5+ hitters are performing so surprisingly well. Even more, I am convinced that, while these capabilities may not guarantee our future teams maintain a high ceiling, they should reinforce our current high floor for as long as the jays emphasize coachable players.


earlweaverfan - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#464067) #
Scottt, what have you heard about Coulombe as a possible lefty acquisition?
hypobole - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#464068) #
I think Marc has nailed it.

Atkins seems much more risk averse than someone like Preller, who has gone the 2015 Alex Anthopoulos route a few times. Preller has shopped Perigold, Atkins Wayfair.

The Padres have made the playoffs 3 times since Preller used his top rated farm in 2020 to start going for it. So have the Jays. They have won playoff games in that time, as opposed to Toronto. But just like the 2015 Jays, they haven't even reached the WS.

And where are the 2 teams now? Jays over 90% chance at playoffs, Padres at 60%. And despite some great drafting over the years, Padres farm is ranked, along with the Braves, as the 2 weakest at Fangraphs.

mendocino - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#464069) #
Jon Heyman@JonHeyman

As of today, the Twins are now seriously listening on their rental players, including Coulombe, Bader and Castro. While they will listen on All-Star starter Joe Ryan and star closer Jhoan Duran they’d have to be blown away, especially for Ryan.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#464070) #
Sounds like the M's may try hard to acquire Suarez this month.
hypobole - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#464071) #
Here's my take on Keller rumours. We have 5 healthy starters. Doesn't mean they will all be healthy by the deadline. Might as well be proactive and find out the cost now.
mendocino - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 01:17 PM EDT (#464072) #
shit show in Pittsburgh, everybody checking in, will be lots of noise. Read Jays checked about Keller and Cruz but it doesn't mean much just Atkins doing his job.
99BlueJaysWay - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#464073) #
Re: Kwan

Read a piece in the Athletic about them coming out of the break. Kwan has been dealing with a right wrist injury since late May. He’s still not recovered and got a cortisone shot on Monday.

Before the injury, Kwan posted a .311/.371/.425 slash line. Since, he has logged a .248/.310/.356 clip.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#464074) #
There's a balance between sincerely going for it in 2025 and still putting the team's chances of sustainability in a good place. Trade top prospects if you can get a controllable difference making piece in return, otherwise focus on getting as much short-term impact as possible. The latter shouldn't cost as much, but could still put the 2025 team in good position to make a deep run depending on what they get.

Jimenez, Orelvis, and Clase are out of options after this season. Roden might have been surpassed on the team's depth chart (Loperfido, Schreck, etc). Pinango doesn't fit the team's defense oriented mold so I could see him being moved as well. They have some developing pitching prospects, some of whom they may not be as high on so maybe they go in trades (like Kendall Williams and Nick Frasso in previous years).

There will be multiple trades, but I agree it's going to be closer to high end depth pieces than 2015 David Price (which probably isn't available regardless looking at the list of trade candidates).
Marc Hulet - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#464076) #
Jimenez might be safer because the club still has to figure out SS next year with Bo likely leaving (and not a great long-term investment).
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 03:12 PM EDT (#464077) #
Guardians have an easy schedule rest of way. I think they will trade one of Smith or Clase to strengthen their line up or farm.

Minnesota and KC are the teams to watch for me. Much better arms available like Lugo, Jax and Duran.
johnny was - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 03:14 PM EDT (#464078) #
All this talk of the 2015 team has got me wound up for my ***second*** complaint of the day about that KC fan with the Mennonite beard who pulled a Mike Moustakas double off David Price over the wall for a blown call homerun in the second inning of game six of the ALCS. It came up earlier this morning when a coworker showed up for a team-building exercise in a Royals hat. This will forever be to me what Maradona's Hand of God goal is to England supporters.

Seriously though, I think the post trade deadline 2015 Jays might've been the best team we've ever fielded. A bit weird that the offensive soft spot was SS when you had Jose Reyes and Tulowitzki playing there. I'd happily read a where are they now? about Devon Travis or Chris Colabello.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#464079) #
I remember they were running out Goins and Pennington.
mendocino - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#464080) #
Devon Travis was working for SEC Network (ESPN) doing college baseball games.
hypobole - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#464081) #
I know AA hired Travis as a coach a while back. Wiki says 2021 GCL, 2022 AAA. Checked the Gwinnett staff for this year, but don't see his name.

I think Collabello has a 100% Real Crowtein Fight Milk franchise.

The Devon stuff is true, the other is Sunny.
mendocino - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#464082) #
sorry ACC Network, Florida State - ACC
SK in NJ - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#464083) #
"Jimenez might be safer because the club still has to figure out SS next year with Bo likely leaving (and not a great long-term investment)."


True. I'm guessing Clement will be the everyday SS next season if Bo leaves (or everyday 2B with Gimenez moving over), so there should be a bench spot for Jimenez in that scenario. Clase and Orelvis don't have a clear path so are more likely to go.
scottt - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#464084) #
Ben Revere, Ezekiel Carrera, Collabello.
Martin and Navarro were past their prime.
Smoak was still trying to break out.
Goins was at 2B.

Marco Estrada was the only good starting to pitcher in the playoffs and Aaron Sanchez was the only good reliever.
scottt - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#464085) #
Mark Lumber/The Wood Bat Factory has declared bankruptcy and a group led by Russell Martin has taken over.
Glevin - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#464086) #
Seriously though, I think the post trade deadline 2015 Jays might've been the best team we've ever fielded"

It's an interesting argument. 1992 and 1993 obviously contenders but I also think the 2021 team that didn't even make the playoffs. I think 2015 has more holes than some other teams but it's up there. To me the whole Tulo thing is a great example of how vibes matter. Jays went on a massive run as soon as they got Tulo but it was more correlation than causation. He had a 92 WRC+ with the Jays. Yes his D was obviously better than Reyes' but unlike Price, i see him as another one of the role players that helped the Jays rather than a core piece.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#464087) #
I think the 2025 team might end up being one of the best Blue Jays teams if the front office makes some big moves at the trade deadline (very good SP, potent bat, elite RP). The team defense and depth are special. I could it all coming together in stellar fashion post-deadline if this happens.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#464088) #
Yeah it's possible everyone was sleeping on this team.

Tulo completely transformed that 2015 team. his defense was incredible and at the time he was considered the best player on the team trying to come back from injury. Of course time revealed that he would never get back to top player in the league chasing MVPs while with Toronto. I think he's still one of the best fielding % SS in MLB history.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 07:19 PM EDT (#464092) #
Tonight’s game suggests the Blue Jays need another quality SP. Scherzer seems to be capable of some good moments/stretches, but is he really a capable postseason starter at this late stage of his career (with a wonky thumb)? He may also end up taxing the bullpen a lot if he now typically pitches 4-5 innings.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 08:09 PM EDT (#464093) #
Boston is down 4-1 to Philly in the 5th. Could be another big game for the Blue Jays in the standings, if they can come back against NYY (still time to scrape together 2+ runs).
Glevin - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 11:04 PM EDT (#464094) #
Jays need a reliever or two badly. The "Let's abuse Jeff Hoffman" plan doesn't go well. Hopefully soon. Doesn't have to be elite, just someone you can trust in the 7th+.
92-93 - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 11:12 PM EDT (#464095) #
Perhaps Schneider should insist on taking care of his veteran relievers as well. That's the 3rd time Hoffman has gone 4 times in 5 days. If he's going to use Hoffman up 4 runs and pull his cruising starter at 85 pitches up 4-1, management really needs to give him 2-3 more arms to work with.

Barker was all over Vladdy on the post-game show. He's on pace for 77 RBI, and is hitting .291/.432/.465 with RISP.
greenfrog - Tuesday, July 22 2025 @ 11:17 PM EDT (#464096) #
Clement has been a valuable player for the Blue Jays this year, but maybe it’s time to add another strong bat to the team (like Suarez) and move Clement into more of a utility role. The only catch is that the team can’t really add a DH-type player because Springer has more or less become the regular DH.

I liked the idea of adding Kwan until I read that he’s been hampered by an injury this season.
vw_fan17 - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 12:01 AM EDT (#464098) #
Clement is certainly in a slump, and yeah, probably time for a few days off..

Vlad, 3-5 today notwithstanding has been a disappointment so far. And he rarely seems to come through in the clutch.
SK in NJ - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 06:59 AM EDT (#464099) #
On my count, this was the 5th time Hoffman has gone 4 in 5 days this season. That seems way too much, though not sure if other teams do it as frequently with their relievers. The Jays definitely need to add a reliever that Schneider feels comfortable using as a closer if necessary. The Jays don’t have many blowouts, win or lose, and even if they did that hasn’t stopped Schneider from using leverage relievers in those games, so only way to fix this issue is to add more high leverage depth in the pen.

Otherwise, the team had to lose at home at some point. You can see how much they need power in the lineup over the last 2 games. Varsho coming back will help.
adrianveidt - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 07:23 AM EDT (#464100) #
Not to defend Guerrero, although he is 3rd or 4th in the sabermetric offensive stats, he leads the team in WAR right now.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 08:07 AM EDT (#464101) #
Varsho with another home run (2 hits total) yesterday in his rehab assignment for Dunedin. Let's hope he makes it back to the major-league club soon.
Petey Baseball - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 08:13 AM EDT (#464102) #
Agreed on all fronts on the 2015 team. Tulowitzki was just so much better defensively than Reyes, Revere was so much better than Colabello or Valencia or whoever else they had out in left. And adding Price, who was a top 3-5 pitcher in all of baseball gave them their "guaranteed win every 5 days guy", and put the overall confidence of the team into the stratosphere.

Donaldson, Bautista and Encarnacion just raked, allowing the other 7 guys in the lineup to relax.

I always use the '04 Red Sox as an example. The team was 56-46 at the deadline and traded their best player and franchise icon Nomar Garciaparra for Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientkiewicz. If you are a buyer, and have designs on a championship run (which the Jays should absolutely be laser focused on, not just being happy to be in) the Sox example sometimes you have to trade away talent (in this case, an All-Star player still in the prime years of his career) not just prospects, to get better.
SK in NJ - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 08:26 AM EDT (#464103) #
From Hector Gomez on X: "INF/OF Ángel Montás is the top international prospect in the 2028 class. Montás has a verbal agreement with the Toronto Blue Jays for $5.7 million, which would make him the player with the highest signing bonus in the history of the international market."
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:03 AM EDT (#464104) #
The 2015 team was great, but there were a couple of flies in the ointment:

-AA rejecting an offer of Zobrist for Tellez at the trade deadline

-Tulowitzki's injury (cracked shoulder blade due to collision with Pillar) - he never got back to full strength during the season and postseason

-Price was not a good pitcher in the postseason

They still almost made it to the World Series, and might have made it had the 2-1 pitch to Revere in the ninth inning of Game 6 of the ALCS (with one out and runners on second and third base) been properly called a ball instead of a strike. The Blue Jays lost the game 4-3.
SK in NJ - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:14 AM EDT (#464105) #
"Vlad, 3-5 today notwithstanding has been a disappointment so far. And he rarely seems to come through in the clutch."


Vlad does feel like a massive disappointment, but he has a 134 wRC+ on the season and 136 wRC+ for his career. The problem might be that the Jays are paying him based on his 2024 season, so the expectation is a 165 wRC+ every year, but the reality is we should probably be expecting performance closer to what he's doing now more often.

Of course, he could easily go off the final two months and resemble the 2024 player by the end of the season. That's what's frustrating about him.
Petey Baseball - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:38 AM EDT (#464106) #
The point is, greenfrog, the playoffs are a bit of a crapshoot. It's the play afterwards that counts and the division title and the playoff series victory which gave the franchise a signature moment. It was still worth the massive price the team paid in prospects and risk. There was no fly in the ointment, it's the best year the team has had in 32 years.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:48 AM EDT (#464107) #
You're of course entitled to your opinion, Petey, but even Anthopoulos has expressed regret over not trading for Zobrist that year. 2015 can still be one of the great Blue Jays seasons even if there are a couple of important things that could have gone better that year (in my opinion).

https://bluejaysnation.com/news/alex-anthopoulos-regrets-letting-ben-zobrist-get-away-at-the-2015-trade-deadline
Petey Baseball - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:52 AM EDT (#464108) #
My point being, I hope to hell the franchise takes all they have learned from the pursuit of big names in the past, and we just offer up what it's going to take to get them. As Magpie's latest teaches us, (and your point greenfrog, about Tulo's injury) luck plays a big factor in how successful a season is, esepcially the plaoffs, but it's been worth the effort. I really do think that the rarity of this franchises position at this point in the season has to play a factor, as well as where they are from an ownership standpoint (to which I've been blathering on here for months now about).

Whether it be money or prospects, there is precedent for big swings and big risks.
Petey Baseball - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:54 AM EDT (#464109) #
I agree with you about Zobrist greenfrog, and I was well aware of AA's conflict over that trade. You also made a great point about Tulo.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:00 AM EDT (#464110) #
On the good news front, Davis Schneider has been putting together a string of excellent fighting PAs and has been getting a fair shake on balls/strikes by the umpires. His swinging strike rate is way down.

He may be seeing more playing time.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:06 AM EDT (#464111) #
Vlad's got career bests in bb% and k%, 10pts off his career best in obp.

But a career worst iso.

Still the best hitter on one of the best teams in baseball tho, even in a just ok year so far.
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:15 AM EDT (#464112) #
Last night was frustrating because they wasted so many opportunities early on. The biggest clutch player right now is Barger, which is a problem, followed by Bo...

The biggest issue was batting Lukes leadoff... he hasn't had a competitive AB since the break. How many first-pitch pop-ups has he hit? Clement has been an auto-out, too, but hes been more competitive.

Last night convinced me the club needs to go all-in on Eugenio Suarez even if some of his power is the product of his home park.

Keep him away from New York and Seattle and get some power for the lineup given that Guerrero Jr. is now a singles hitter.
Glevin - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#464113) #
Varsho hit another HR yesterday so is trending to come back soon. Him being healthy would be huge and would mean less Clement Vs RHP and less Straw in general. I'd be fine giving some of those ABs to Schneider and Jimenez in the meantime.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:22 AM EDT (#464114) #
Mike, I've been admiring Schneider's PAs as well. Have you noticed that his batting stance has changed? He looks more confident and quicker to the ball. He has a 133 wRC+ on the season, which is excellent.
Katie - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:43 AM EDT (#464115) #
Fangraphs is doing their annual Trade Value series and has Kirk at #30. He'll be the highest Blue Jay.

Their write-up really illustrates what a great job the front office did with his extension. With Kirk, the front office seems to have struck at an opportune time and it seems very safe to say a contract extension after this year would have looked noticeably different.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:48 AM EDT (#464116) #
Vlad has not been clutch. Only Roden and Schneider of the 20 other hitters who've played have been worse than Vlad. But that is largely because the hitters as a whole have been the 3rd best clutch team in MLB.

219 players have had 250 PA's this year. Vlad's -0.32 ranks 126th, so around the 43rd percentile. Now allow me to shock you. Here are some of the worst clutch hitters this year, bottom 7% of the 219:

#205 Cal Raleigh -1.32
#208 Aaron Judge -1.37
#211 Rafael Devers -1.45
#214 Riley Greene -1.60
#218 Juan Soto -1.82

One commonality of these players, including Vlad, is that they all have positive to excellent WPA's, just not in the clutch.



uglyone - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#464117) #
vRHP

1. DH Springer 275pa .391obp 155wrc+
2. 1B Guerrero 332pa .377obp 123wrc+
3. RF Barger 234pa .339obp 145wrc+
4. C Alejandro 243pa .362obp 120wrc+
5. SS Bichette 341pa .323obp 113wrc+
6. CF Varsho 81pa .272obp 142wrc+
7. LF Lukes 208pa .361obp 113wrc+
8. 3B Wagner 95pa .368obp 106wrc+
9. 2B Gimenez 172pa .333obp 100wrc+

B. UT Schneider 36pa .306obp 93wrc+
B. OF Straw 103pa .255obp 47wrc+
B. IF Clement 243pa .276obp 53wrc+
B. C Heineman 64pa .365obp 130wrc+


vLHP

1. 2B Clement 121pa .400obp 172wrc+
2. 1B Guerrero 103pa .437obp 171wrc+
3. LF Schneider 64pa .306obp 155wrc+
4. DH Springer 103pa .327obp 112wrc+
5. SS Bichette 100pa .320obp 107wrc+
6. C Alejandro 93pa .355obp 104wrc+
7. CF Varsho 19pa .105obp -59wrc+
8. RF Straw 94pa .323obp 89wrc+
9. 3B Barger 50pa .260obp 63wrc+

B. UT Wagner 14pa .231obp 34wrc+
B. OF Lukes 25pa .273obp 45wrc+
B. IF Gimenez 66pa .212obp 22wrc+
B. C Heineman 34pa .455obp 202wrc+
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:58 AM EDT (#464118) #
The Athletic just ranked Joe Ryan #1 on their list of the top 50 players who could be traded this month. They comment that he is a “proven front-line starter” and that among all qualified SPs in 2024-2025, he “ranks second to only Tarik Skubal in K/BB ratio (6.1/1) and is also fourth in opponents’ batting average (.207) and 10th in ERA (3.15).”

Duran is #2 and Suarez is #3 on their list.
SK in NJ - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 11:16 AM EDT (#464119) #
I’ve been beating the Suarez drum for a while and with Santander’s injury looking like it might be season ending, the need for another power bat is even more important. Stringing together competitive at bats resulting in singles is not going to work when you’re facing good pitching in a playoff setting. Someone has to be a power threat on a consistent basis to compensate for Guerrero being content with 20-25 HR. Santander was meant to be the power bat but if he’s out then you have to improvise. Straw being a platoon bat against LHP is also not ideal for offensive performance. He should be a 5th OF/defensive replacement/pinch runner at best. Knowing Fried’s on the mound tonight and anticipating a lineup with Straw and Jimenez in there instead of Lukes and Barger stresses that another RHB is very much in need even with Schneider’s resurgence.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#464120) #
Suarez is a great fit because he can slot in at third base with Barger starting in RF most games. Clement can bounce around various positions as a utility player / platoon bat / late-inning defensive replacement. Springer can continue to be the primary DH.

It’s a net gain for the team, even if Suarez is somewhat of a defensive downgrade at third base.

However, the more prudent move may be to trade for a controllable SP (like Keller or Cabrera or Ryan) and a good RP. The bidding for Suarez could get ridiculous and at some point you have to bow out and avoid the winner’s curse.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 12:08 PM EDT (#464121) #
As opposed to other contenders like the Cubs, Yankees and Mariners, who all have a glaring hole at 3rd, the Jays don't NEED Suarez. Picking up a solid outfielder would allow Barger to move to 3rd.
scottt - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 12:37 PM EDT (#464122) #
Like Varsho?
SK in NJ - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 12:41 PM EDT (#464123) #
Adding an OF and putting Barger at 3B would be the more ideal scenario for me, as I think Barger should be getting as many reps at 3B as possible. With that said, the Jays are playing Wagner at 3B recently so while they don't need a 3B, it's still a position they could justify an upgrade without losing much. Still, Barger at 3B and a good OF added does seem like the better long-term play. Whether a power hitting starting OF is available is the question. If the Angels are looking to move Taylor Ward, then he'd be a nice fit (crushes LHP, a little above average against RHP) with an extra year of control as well. Other than him, no one really jumps out at me.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 12:48 PM EDT (#464124) #
Varsho replaces Straw, not Barger.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#464125) #
Let me join the calls for Barger to 3B and this FO trading for a SP and RP, both as close as elite as possible. I'll concede, Nimalla, Yesavage, Stephen, Tiedemann, etc all (whatever it takes). The component of control in the return (Ryan, Duran) sways me into the "sell the farm" crowd for this move.

Perhaps Marc can chime in what an offer would look like for Ryan and Duran (if he even thinks that would possible).
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#464126) #
Another interesting name: Shane Bieber. He's great even if volatile and uncontrollable from a contractual status.
Petey Baseball - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 02:46 PM EDT (#464128) #
I would say Nimmala and Yesavage would both have to be included for the Twins to listen on a trade involving both those guys.
You're also probably giving up something from your major league roster, or at least your 40 man perhaps they'd have interest in Schneider, Lukes, Loperfido, Wagner or perhaps a promising arm like Mason Fluharty or Braydon Fisher to make sure you were competitive or got the deal to the finish line.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 02:52 PM EDT (#464129) #
For me, the ideal trade would be for Ryan and one of their relievers (Jax or Duran). Or just Ryan and then acquire a reliever from another team. I would trade a couple of the Blue Jays’ top prospects and a few other prospects/players to make that happen.

Elite SP and elite RP would provide what this team most needs at the deadline.
Cracka - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#464130) #
I don't see the Twins trading Ryan - and certainly not for just two prospects.

For context, two months of Jose Berrios, a 1.9 WAR player at the time, cost us our #2 and #4 prospects. Joe Ryan is a 4.5 WAR player right now with two years and two months of control. He's easily worth 3x if not 4x-5x of what Berrios was worth. I don't think we have the type of prospects to pull a deal like this off...
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#464132) #
Minnesota could and should maximize their return by trading the pitchers separately. Ryan alone would probably be Yesavage, Stanifer, Watts-Brown and Roden... you also have to out-bid the other contenders with better systems like LAD, CHC, SEA, etc.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#464133) #
Martin and SWR were good/decent, not great, prospects by the time they were traded.

Agreed that Ryan is unlikely to be traded. I was laying out my best-case scenario. I actually have no idea what it would take to acquire him. Would one of these packages be enough? Too much?

-Yesavage, Nimmala, Roden and a couple of prospects in the 11-20 range?

-Yesavage, Rojas, Roden, Duran and a lesser prospect?
hypobole - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#464135) #
Looking ahead, I was worried about our next series - 4 games with the Tigers starting tomorrow. But wow, they've really hit the skids after being the best team in baseball for much of the season. Spencer Horwitz with his first career slam and the Pirates sweep the 3 games. Tigers have now lost 9 of their last 10.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#464136) #
Marc I would do that trade in a heart beat and then go trade more prospects for a back end closer.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#464137) #
Some Scherzer thoughts. He has started 6 games now and is on the low side of mediocre. He's been worth 0 WAR by both sites. Here are his GameScores: 46, 44, 60, 45, 57, 44. Lets call this range Max.

Here are our other 4 starters GameScores:
worse than Max - Max - better than Max
Gausman 5-8-7
Berrios 7-7-7
Bassitt 5-10-5
Lauer 2-4-3

So Scherzer has been the most consistent if nothing else.


greenfrog - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#464141) #
If Scherzer is at 0.0 WAR and the other four starters are all in the 1-2 WAR range, doesn’t that logically mean that (so far) the other four have pitched better than Scherzer overall?
scottt - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#464142) #
Varsho will platoon with Straw. He replaces Lukes. Does Lukes replace Loperfido?
hypobole - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#464143) #
greenfrog, I said he was 0 WAR. I was only pointing out how consistently mediocre he has been.

He has no real stinkers like Gausman getting bombed for 7 runs in 4.1 IP vs Zona last month and certainly nothing really good like Gausman's next outing of 8 shutout innings vs Cleveland.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 05:34 PM EDT (#464144) #
BA has listed their "12 best players contenders could target" at the trade deadline:

Suarez
Ryan
Lugo
Jhoan Duran
Jarren Duran
Alcantara (or maybe Cabrera)
Clase
Keller
Kelly
Naylor
O'Hearn
Jax

And some more names BA says to watch: Kwan, Robert Jr., McMahon, Gallen, Bautista
metafour - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 05:42 PM EDT (#464145) #
Martin and SWR were good/decent, not great, prospects by the time they were traded.
This is revisionist history. Martin was drafted in 2020 and made his pro debut in AA in 2021. He posted a 133 wRC+ in New Hampshire before being traded that very same year in 2021. The Jays clearly read him correctly and were very concerned about his lack of power (.102 ISO in AA) and defense, but he was still absolutely considered to be a ~Top 30 prospect when he was traded. Simeon Woods Richardson was struggling in 11 AA starts before the trade, but he was a preseason Top 100 prospect and was still posting 13.3 K/9 in New Hampshire with his main problem being a big jump in BB%. His struggles were really not much different than what we are seeing now with Yesavage in AA, except that Woods Richardson was younger as he was only 20 at the time in 2021. At the time of that trade, we were considered to have been trading a Top 30-ish prospect (Martin) and a Top 100-ish prospect (Woods Richardson). The Twins obviously didn't trade away 1.5 years of Berrios for two "decent prospects".
uglyone - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#464146) #
Martin was no bueno from the start, with a line carried only by BABIP and HBP.
uglyone - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#464147) #
Varsho's not a platoon bat. As a jay he's been better vLHP than vRHP.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 06:48 PM EDT (#464148) #
metafour: no, that is not correct. If you read the 30 July 2021 trade thread, you’ll see that lots of people (including commentators like Keith Law) were already raising red flags about Martin at the time.

Here is my own comment at the time:

I probably should be unhappy about the trade. But for some reason I’m not. Berrios is a good add, SWR was always somewhat of a risky prospect, and Martin has been a bit of a disappointment so far — factoring in overall offense and defense — and the Jays have a lot of good infield prospects.
John Northey - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#464149) #
At the time of the trade Martin's shortcomings were just starting to be noticed. He had very little pro experience so it was reasonable to think it was just a slump. That a guy seen as a possible #1 pick a year earlier would be back to that status soon. The Jays were smart to take the trade. But to retrospectively say he was a busted prospect at the time is silly.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 07:04 PM EDT (#464150) #
There's another player I was wrong about- Austin Martin. I thought he was an excellent pick. Wrong-o. By the time of the trade, it was pretty obvious that he was not a top prospect.
metafour - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#464151) #
I never said that he wasn't showing signs of concern (I literally brought up his lack of power), but to pretend that he was already relegated to only being a "kinda good/decent" prospect after only ~50 AA games is nonsense. He was a Top 5 pick just a year prior who lots of evaluators thought was the best player in the 2020 Draft. That type of prospect doesn't get dropped that quickly in his first season of pro ball, especially when the overall line (again: 130 wRC+) was still strong.

If you want to apply that same logic, is Nimmala now also only a "kinda good/decent" prospect? He is hitting for just 101 wRC+ on the season and his numbers over the past ~2 months are bad. His power has also dried up. If I told you right now that I thought he sucked, and it turns out that ~3 years from now he ends up not even being an MLB player, that doesn't mean that Nimmala didn't have serious value on July 23rd 2025.

You are trying to make the argument that because you guessed right on Martin/SWR at the time of the trade, that this means that they really weren't good prospects when they were traded. The general consensus among Jays fans was that we overpaid for Berrios, with tons of people fuming that we gave up a Top 5 pick just a year after drafting him.

Again, both Martin and SWR were showing flaws at the time of the trade, but their actual PROSPECT VALUE was still high. We know that it was high because the Twins traded 1.5 seasons of what was at the time considered to be a really good 27 year old starting pitcher for them. Jose Berrios had a LOT of value: he was a 4 fWAR starter that season, and was a 4.4 fWAR starter two seasons before that. The Twins didn't trade that level of asset who also wasn't a rental for two "decent" prospects.

jerjapan - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 07:15 PM EDT (#464152) #
You can reread the thread on the Berrios trade and see loads of people freaking out about the high price we paid.

Reaching back to points we were correct about seems to ignore the fact that we aren’t reaching back to the points we were incorrect about, and the fact that people whose entire careers are to evaluate prospects get this stuff wrong too, a lot of this conversation just seems dumb to me.

We use statistics to evaluate prospects. This leads to useful generalizations about groups, and continues to fail in predicting individual outcomes.

Why does the most statistically informed forum I participate in online continue to ignore this? Is it a central premise of fandom to use statistics to prove yourself right? We are all just making informed guesses. Some more informed than others, none objective.

Spifficus - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#464153) #
At the time of the deal, the shine had definitely worn off of Martin. He wasn't valueless, but was definitely on a downward trend.

In fangraphs, for example, Martin was a 55-grade prospect pre-season, but down to a 50 when they updated mid-year. Woods-Richardson was a pre-season 50 who moved down to a 45 the following year.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 07:25 PM EDT (#464154) #
metafour, if you’re going to challenge what I said, please don’t (repeatedly) misquote me. I said Martin and SWR were good/decent, not great, prospects at the time. I stand by that assessment, and that the mixed opinions in the trade thread back that up.

I didn’t say “kinda” good/decent — that’s your spin on what I actually said.
metafour - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#464155) #
Greenfrog, give a baseball prospect ranking # of what you mean by "good/decent" then. Did you think that they were Top 100-150 prospects? Top 250 prospects? Was either one a Top 100 prospect to you at the time of the trade?

"Not great" sounds to me like you thought that both of them were #250-300 or worse prospects among all of baseball. I can't imagine that "not great" implies Top 150 or better.

No offense, but your internal guesstimate of what you thought they were worth was rebuked by what the Twins actually gave up for them. A 27 year old ~3-4 WAR pitcher with no health issues and 1.5 years of control (Berrios) has never been traded for just two "good/decent, not great" prospects. The Twins own evaluation clearly thought much higher of them, otherwise they wouldn't have given us Berrios now would they? They could have easily traded him to any other team (literally everyone wants controllable starting pitchers) if the best offer they had from us was two "not great" prospects. This is common sense.
mathesond - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#464156) #
Ahh, this takes me back to the Parker/uglyone debates of yesteryear. Wish I had some popcorn.
metafour - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#464157) #
For fun, I just took a look at the July 30th, 2021 trade article from The Athletic:

How happy should the Twins be with the return?

Aaron Gleeman, Twins beat writer: Very. Trading a player as valuable and well-liked as Berríos was never going to feel good, but the Twins maximized their return with a half-dozen contenders looking to add the team-controlled frontline starter. Martin was the No. 5 pick in last year's draft and the 22-year-old shortstop/center fielder has a gaudy .424 on-base percentage at double-A in his taste of pro ball. Woods Richardson is a borderline top-100 global prospect averaging 13 strikeouts per nine innings at double-A as a 20-year-old. They aren't without possible drawbacks — Martin's power is in question and so far, Woods Richardson is more about potential more than performance — but this is clearly a strong return for 1 1/2 seasons of Berríos.

electric carrot - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#464158) #
This team needs both Varsho and to a lesser degree Gimenez back. Bottom three in the order look very weak these days. Also, Barger looks exposed against tough lefties.
scottt - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 08:10 PM EDT (#464159) #
The fantastic 4th inning. Bassitt has a better line than Fried after 4.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 08:17 PM EDT (#464160) #
At the time of the draft, Martin was seen as having great hitting skills, the best in the draft, plus speed and questions about power and defensive home. He still had the hitting skills at the time of the trade, but his lack of power was becoming more evident and he had been moved off shortstop to the outfield where he was not good.

metafour - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 08:31 PM EDT (#464161) #
Correct hypobole, but none of those "negatives" were solidified or concluded after just 50 games. For example, the lack of power could easily have been explained away by it being his first pro season with wood bats, or him just needing to adjust to AA pitching. The fact that he wasn't immediately great in CF doesn't imply that he couldn't improve there, or that he couldn't eventually be a good 2B if the bat developed as expected.

These were all things that the Twins clearly thought they had answers for, otherwise why did they give us Berrios for him? And that's the whole gotcha moment here: the idea that a decently run MLB team gave up a huge asset under team control for a whopping two "not great" prospects is nonsensical. No, they clearly liked and valued Martin and SWR a lot, as did MOST PEOPLE at the time of the trade. They likely believed that they were buying low on Martin and could make a swing adjustment of some sort and end up with an elite hitting 2B.

And make no mistake: I was ALSO low on Martin at the time of that trade and had no problem with the move and could see clear flaws. But I'm not going to pretend like those two were just kinda-good or "OK" ("not great") prospects because I now know in hindsight what they ultimately became. They were both still extremely valuable prospects...again, proven by the fact that they bought us Jose Berrios.

christaylor - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 08:36 PM EDT (#464162) #
The brand of often winning baseball of the 2025 team makes me laugh in amusement. The team is not only good but weird. I dig it.
jerjapan - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 08:39 PM EDT (#464163) #
Some people think one thing, some people think another. You cannot use statistics to predict individual outcomes.

How is this hard to understand?
scottt - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 08:41 PM EDT (#464164) #
It's like coaching a good Little League team. It's the fundamentals.

Still need 12 big outs.
scottt - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 08:43 PM EDT (#464165) #
Or is it that individual outcomes are the only things that can be predicted?
soupman - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 08:45 PM EDT (#464166) #
Why did they pitch to Judge there?
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#464167) #
The four-game sweep of the Yankees was incredible. This series has also been really exciting and inspiring.

Add-on runs, please!
hypobole - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#464168) #
A roller coaster of emotions and they've only played 6.

Big props to Straw after all the bad mouthing I gave him when he came to the plate.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:08 PM EDT (#464169) #
Fanduel loves people who think that.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#464170) #
I missed the last few minutes. Why did Boone get so upset to the point of being ejected?
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#464171) #
Ball/strike call on Volpe, I would imagine.
ayjackson - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#464172) #
Yanks are embarrassing.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:18 PM EDT (#464173) #
The Yankee defence has been atrocious. It can wear out a pitching staff.
Gerry - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:18 PM EDT (#464174) #
Home plate ump has called a couple of Yankees out on high, out of the zone pitches. M
Gerry - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:23 PM EDT (#464175) #
As I have said a few times this season I am surprised at how poor most of the AL teams play defense.

The Jays do put pressure on defenses by not striking out but still, bad defense.

Are there stats for errors against, the Jays could be leading the league.
Katie - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#464176) #
Manny Gonzalez has called two strikes on pitches that were out of the zone high to Yankees batters. One a few innings earlier and the recent one.

What's interesting is there was a video on social media showing Manny apologizing to Boone after the first pitch (tapping his chest while looking in the Yankees dugout, seemed to be saying my bad and Boone acknowledged it).

So, I imagine, Boone was also furious because not only were they bad calls, but Gonzalez seemed to admit the first pitch was high and he made a mistake, then proceeded to call a very similar pitch a strike again a few innings later.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:33 PM EDT (#464177) #
Thank you, Katie, for that helpful explanation!
Glevin - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:44 PM EDT (#464178) #
As I have said a few times this season I am surprised at how poor most of the AL teams play defense."

Agree. It's not just that the Jays D is excellent, it's that everyone else looks so terrible. Shockingly bad.
Glevin - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#464179) #
2/3 against Yankees with Rodon and Fried going. Not too shabby!
mathesond - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#464180) #
Crazy game, with 4 Yankee errors and 5 video reviews, and it still comes un well under hours.
mathesond - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#464181) #
*still comes in well under 3 hours.
Magpie - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#464182) #
Are there stats for errors against, the Jays could be leading the league.

Not that I know of. I have seen ROE ( Reached on Error) and the Blue Jays - surprise! - rank near the bottom of the league, having Reached on Error just 17 times, ahead of just KC and Detroit. Red Sox hitters have reached 28 times. If the other teams are making more errors against the Jays, they would be Advancement errors, and I think that describes three of the four Yankees errors tonight.
pooks137 - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:03 PM EDT (#464183) #
Are there stats for errors against, the Jays could be leading the league.

Not a perfect sample, but BBRef had the Jays 3rd last in the AL in ROE with 17 coming into tonight.

Red Sox lead the AL with 28.

mathesond - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#464184) #
The Yankees have committed 11 errors in 7 games at Rogers Centre this season.
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:23 PM EDT (#464185) #
Four games up and sealed the tiebreaker... heading to face Detroit, who are reeling. Good pitching but suspect hitting. Hopefully there is no drop-off in energy like after the last Yankees series.
Cracka - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:26 PM EDT (#464186) #
It's been 40 years since the Jays have had an "AL Manager of the Year" and I think that should end this year. Like many of us, I have had some issues with Schneider's bullpen usage this season, but the overall results, combined with the consistency and persistence of the process, are starting to be noticed by everyone in baseball.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#464187) #
Coming into tonight's game, the Yankees had committed 3 fewer errors than the Jays this season.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#464188) #
I was thinking earlier - who is most responsible for the Jays success?

Schneider is to be commended for keeping the ship afloat after that horrific stretch early in the season. I'm guessing things are good in the clubhouse.

But for me, it has to be the guy I would have been more than happy if he had been be given the pink slip a couple of years ago - Ross Atkins. It's amazing because I've seen people defend him, but I've never seen anyone actually say they like the guy.
Magpie - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 11:13 PM EDT (#464189) #
who is most responsible for the Jays success?

Easy there! It's still July.

I am over-sensitive about such things, perhaps. But back in April, Eephus (who had to work again tonight and missed it) were discussing the team and we agreed that there was something different about this bunch. "The vibes are really good" one us (can't remember who) actually said.

They lost eight of their next nine.
vw_fan17 - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 11:33 PM EDT (#464190) #
As much as I agree that Varsho (when fully healthy) should quickly replace Straw as a starter, I wonder where the Jays would be without Straw's defense in the later innings this year. So many hits that looked dangerous off the bat and "Straw runs it down". Not sure Lukes or Loperfido would have been nearly as effective. And he chips in with the odd bit hit, runs his hardest on every play, and is a bit of a spark plug. Almost like a John McDonald of the outfield. Sure, he's overpaid, but.. it's not like he's making $20M/year or anything. Giminez would be the much worse contract from those two, IMHO.

Again - I think once Varsho is healthy, Straw should sit more (just as Clement / Giminez should probably platoon a fair amount when possible) - just that's he's been a very pleasant surprise so far.
hypobole - Wednesday, July 23 2025 @ 11:36 PM EDT (#464191) #
Thanks, Magpie! You answered the question as to who was most responsible for that horrific 9 game game stretch. It was the 2 of you!
John Northey - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 12:21 AM EDT (#464193) #
Fun series, showed the value of a strong defense. Varsho back soon, probably will continue to see Straw often though (ala Varsho-Kiermaier the past 2 years). I expect Gimenez to share 2B with Clement a lot, but we will see soon.

As to trades, this reminding of 2015 and the Berrios trades makes me a lot less worried about losing prospects.
uglyone - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 12:34 AM EDT (#464194) #
SWR was the prize of that package. 20yrs old in AA with excellent underlyings but an unluckily inflated ERA, after dominating lower levels. Statistically he was looking better than a guy like Yesavage is now. Not shockingly SWR has turned himself into a decent MLB SP.

Martin's line as a 22yr old in AA, when considering the babip and hbp and no defense, was no better than a guy like Paulino's this year. Far far less interesting than a guy like Clase looked last year at the deadline. But he did have top prospect hype still so very smart to sell high.

greenfrog - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 05:02 AM EDT (#464195) #
It’s good that SWR has become a MLB starting pitcher. But he has a long way to go before he matches Berrios’s success as a SP. To be fair, he’s still young, and the Twins are getting SWR’s inexpensive years, while the Blue Jays are paying significantly more for Berrios’s late-20s / early-30s years.

I imagine the Blue Jays are happy with how the trade has worked out.
uglyone - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 05:23 AM EDT (#464196) #
A bit harder to find a jays prospect right now with significantly more hype than performance - i.e. a clear sell high candidate.
scottt - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 06:49 AM EDT (#464197) #
Fun to listen to Judge describing the Blue Jays.

Complete team. They put the ball in play. Run out of the box. They got starters that can go deep and then they bring the high leverage pitchers.

Interesting that some guy did not pitch in this series. Fisher, Green, Nance. Bruihl seems like an easy update.

If they go with 6 starters, it's going to be hard to keep Green.
greenfrog - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 07:46 AM EDT (#464198) #
A bit harder to find a jays prospect right now with significantly more hype than performance

Is Yesavage a sell-high candidate? Hard to say.
greenfrog - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 07:53 AM EDT (#464199) #
The Dodgers walked off the Twins last night. Minnesota losses over the next week could be good for the trade deadline. On the other hand, some teams like Texas, Cleveland and KC are hanging tough — hard to say if they will be sellers at the end of the month.
uglyone - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 08:57 AM EDT (#464202) #
Tough to call Yesavage a sell high guy, but it's possible. He dominated his first two stops so much, and his struggles in AA have been so brief (and him still young for the level), that i wouldn't say his performance is lower than his reputation at this point. In fact his dominance at his first 2 stops was so high that his performance arguably exceeded the reputation prior to hitting AA 5 starts ago.
hypobole - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 09:10 AM EDT (#464203) #
Rockies shut out the Cards yesterday. That broke a streak of 220 games without a shutout win, dating back to May last year. No team since at least 1901 had gone more than 200 games without a shutout victory.
hypobole - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 09:28 AM EDT (#464204) #
I think especially hype and to a much lesser extent performance factor into teams decisions quite a bit less than fans think they do.
Marc Hulet - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 10:02 AM EDT (#464205) #
One of the Jays best tradeable prospects, Khal Stephen, just hit the IL in AA. No word on why.
dalimon5 - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 10:03 AM EDT (#464206) #
Damn that sucks.
Mike Green - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 10:38 AM EDT (#464207) #
The Blue Jays have 9 games in 8 days coming up with a doubleheader in Baltimore. Planning pitcher usage will be a challenge, and I hope they take the long view.

I wonder if they might call up Kendry Rojas to make one of the doubleheader starts (for twice through the order). It's a forgiving environment for a left-hander.
92-93 - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#464208) #
If they do plan to trade for a starting pitcher, it would help if the guy could start one of those games on July 29th.

There's no question that Schneider wins the award if this keeps up. He's definitely getting the most out of his roster. Quibbling with in-game decisions every night doesn't change that simple fact. The Vegas O/U opened around 76.5 wins.
Gerry - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 11:09 AM EDT (#464209) #
My guess would be Lazaro Estrada for the DH. He has not pitched well in Buffalo since his demotion but his last major league start probably earned him another one.
hypobole - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 11:11 AM EDT (#464210) #
I looked it up a few days ago myself - Fanduel had the Jays at 78.5 preseason.
Marc Hulet - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 11:23 AM EDT (#464211) #
Rojas has to be added to the 40-man this winter but with the 40-man already full pending the trade deadline, I'd go with Estrada for the DH.
Mike Green - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 11:23 AM EDT (#464212) #
Rojas makes the start for New Hampshire today. We'll see how that goes.
hypobole - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#464213) #
Final thoughts on the Berrios , since I went through the bother of finding it last night.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/twins-get-bounty-for-berrios-but-its-one-thats-not-without-risk/

Key quote:"Data-minded evaluators also point to a loss of power, and while a dip would be expected during a transition from metal to wood bats, Martin’s exit velocities are down a whopping 8 mph from his college days."

And this ranks all the prospects traded that deadline. Note that Eric L agreed with uglyone on Martin vs SWR. Also of interest, #13 is the guy we're facing tonight and #18.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/ranking-the-prospects-traded-during-the-2021-deadline/
Mike Green - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#464214) #
Prospect evaluation is such a tough thing. In the ranking, #1 prospect Josiah Gray was a "mid-rotation lock" while the "dream" for #11 prospect Pete Crow-Armstrong was to become the next Jackie Bradley Jr.
greenfrog - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#464215) #
Felix Bautista has been placed on the IL with a shoulder issue, so he’s probably not a viable RP trade target for the Blue Jays.
hypobole - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 12:04 PM EDT (#464216) #
Bautista injury may also be a bonus for Jays since we face them 4 times after the tigers series.
dalimon5 - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 12:50 PM EDT (#464217) #
I am noticing young star players don't pan out as much these days. Players like Julio Rodriguez in SEA and Merril Jackson (very good) but bad years.
hypobole - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#464219) #
In that vein, it was pointed out in the ZIPS chat today how little rookies have contributed this year.

MLB hitter rookie WAR
2023: 67.6.
2024: 49.0
2025: 16

Pitcher rookie WAR
2023: 46.4
2024: 60.8
2025: 13.3
Marc Hulet - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#464220) #
Teams are being more aggressive with rookies now and they have to finish developing in the majors... it takes a certain type of person to be able to do that, which I think is why the failure rate is a little higher and you see some guys succeed intially and then stumble. A lot of those guys don't face adversity until they reach the majors, which is a lot harder to do in front of 30,000 fans vs 5,000.

In the 80s, those prospects had to knock the door down to get a shot - and some never got one.
hypobole - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 02:52 PM EDT (#464223) #
Two time Blue Jay (and the player with the longest Transactions section I've ever seen at BRef), Jesse Chavez has announced his retirement.

Will be sorely missed by AA who picked him up on waivers twice and signed him as a FA 6 times. May not be missed by Atkins who many fans still blame for dealing away Liam Hendriks to acquire him, even though it was Tony LaCava's trade since Atkins hadn't even been hired.
dalimon5 - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#464224) #
In other news, turns out that industry "insiders" are actually outsiders just like everyone else. No real scoops on what's going down with trades.
greenfrog - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 03:09 PM EDT (#464225) #
There are no scoops because everything is exploratory and in flux right now. The real action will come in the 72 hours before the deadline. Probably most of the trades will happen on Wednesday and Thursday next week.
92-93 - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#464226) #
Late lineup today. Perhaps John is trying to figure out the best way to give Ernie the Great a day off.
92-93 - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#464227) #
Nope, he's there. Guess Jimenez didn't show enough with the glove at 2B yesterday.
Mike Green - Thursday, July 24 2025 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#464228) #
I'm not a fan of VGJ as DH. He doesn't hit well in that role and it means that Springer plays right field where he no longer fields so well.

A game off is in order for everyone at some point during this stretch. Guerrero Jr., Bichette, and even Clement. It will help if Varsho and Gimenez return soon.
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