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So you (like everyone, pretty much) figured Florida's Joe Girardi would be the first manager dismissed after the end of the regular season? No so fast my friend ... this morning the loveable, loseable Cubbies axed Dusty Baker to start what may or may not be an off-season managerial merry-go-round.

  • Late Update: Dusty's old team, the Giants, hurried into second place in the axe-the-skip sweepstakes by firing Felipe Alou.
  • Still Later Update: And Girardi, as expected, is gone -- the fourth skipper to get a pink slip, along with Alou, Baker and Frank Robinson on Saturday. ESPN.com is tracking all the 2006 MLB managerial changes.
  • Yep, A Still Later Later Update: The Rangers say Bye-Bye, Buck and bring to five the number of '06 managers now out of work.

So ...



1. Discuss
2. Who's next (other than Girardi)?
3. What else needs to happen, whether it will or won't?
4. Predictions: next stop for Dusty (and Felipe and Girardi and F-Robby)?

Cubs Nip Fish; Bye-Bye, Dusty | 47 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Magpie - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#156373) #
Next to walk the plank - well, we already know that Frank Robinson and Felipe Alou aren't coming back, and Joe Girardi is all but official. The Mariners have already announced that this year's improvement warrants bringing Mike Hargrove back.

The four teams taking the biggest fall this off-season were managed by Frank Robinson (already gone), Dusty Baker (already gone),  Bobby Cox (will never, never be fired) and Tony LaRussa (in the playoffs). Who are as safe as houses. Therefore...

Buddy Bell!

Oh and Eric Wedge? Your Indians better get off to a good start next year, or you'll be gone by the Last Days of May.

Bruce Wrigley - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 04:29 PM EDT (#156377) #

Dusty Baker would be a great fit for Boston if the Red Sox front office continue their tradition of not owning up to their own failures and seek to pin blame on Francona for the team falling to bits.

In fact, he's be a great fit regardless.

Remember, the Red Sox have never had a minority manager.  The Red Sox and Yankees are the only American League teams never to have had a minority manager; a record that frankly is a disgrace to both teams.  At least the Yankees don't have a persistent history of plain and overt discrimination within their front office.  I've been shocked for years that the Henry/Lucchino/Epstein cabal haven't seen fit to move at least an inch or two away from the frankly racist hiring history of the Red Sox - I always just assumed that once the Yawkey cancer that afflicted the team for so long was excised, that the Sox would begin to take seriously the idea of putting minorities in positions of responsibility.  Hasn't happened yet, but who knows.

Bruce Wrigley - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#156379) #

The five MLB franchises that have never had a minority as manager, by the way, are (give or take a team or two) the five most prestigious franchises in MLB.  Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Braves, and Cardinals.  If there was ever an example of how MLB's pressure on its franchises has helped the cause of minorities in baseball's management structure, this is it, because the five teams lest impervious to pressure have had no blacks and no Hispanics, EVER, in their top field and front office jobs.

VBF - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#156381) #

I should hope that Epstein hires the best man for the job and does not feel obligated to give a job to a minority simply because the team has never had a minority manager. If a minority manager happens to be the best candidate, then you hire him. If it's a white man, it shouldn't make a difference.

Bruce Wrigley - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#156382) #

It is very, very different when you are dealing with an organization that has a well-founded tradition of NOT hiring the best man for the job, and insisting on a racial qualification (or disqualification) in order to be considered for the top jobs.  I think the Red Sox should be held accountable for this crap, especially since no one ever does.  If Francona is fired and Epstein steps up to the microphone and announces that Joel Skinner or Buddy Bell or Bob Brenly is the next Red Sox manager, I think the first ten questions should be about why the Red Sox have never had a minority manager.

MLB have shown, time and again, that you HAVE to hold the teams' feet to the fire on this stuff.  The Red Sox have a responsibility to baseball not to be a lingering embarrassment.

Lee - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#156383) #

If there was ever an example of how MLB's pressure on its franchises has helped the cause of minorities in baseball's management structure, this is it, because the five teams lest impervious to pressure have had no blacks and no Hispanics, EVER, in their top field and front office jobs.

Or, at the times when those teams were looking for a manager or a GM, the best candidate simply happened to be someone who wasn't black or Hispanic. Wait, what the hell am I saying? You're probably right, they must all be a bunch of racists who need to be pressured by MLB into hiring minorities...

js_magloire - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#156385) #
I'm noticing a trend in that older managers are becoming out of fashion. Dusty Baker, Frank Robinson, Felipe Alou are all done. Perhaps the game is becoming too fast paced for them, and the GM's are becoming younger too.
VBF - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 05:18 PM EDT (#156387) #

It is very, very different when you are dealing with an organization that has a well-founded tradition of NOT hiring the best man for the job, and insisting on a racial qualification (or disqualification) in order to be considered for the top jobs. 

So Theo Epstein should hire a minority manager because people decades ago didn't?

Wouldn't he be continuing the heritage of not hiring the best man for the job if he did so? Why should two wrongs make a right?

Also, what does it say to minorities when an organization hires a fellow minority not based on the content of their character, but on the colour of their skin? I am partially a minority, and I would find it offensive if a leader of our culture was chosen for a job simply because the organization felt it made things right. It's artificial and insulting.

VBF - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#156388) #

To add to that, it would be far greater an honour for a leader of my culture to work hard, gain experience and make himself the best man for the job. That's something minorities can cling to and be proud of.

I don't believe Theo Epstein is rascist. As long as a minority makes himself the best man for the job, Epstein will do what is right ethically and for the greater good of his team.

Bruce Wrigley - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#156389) #

Maybe it's because I grew up in a different era from you guys, but I remember the slogging that baseball went through to get teams to take minority candidates seriously.  If it's a non-issue for you, I'd venture to guess that you're not aware of the history that's gone into it.

Again, I didn't say the Red Sox or anyone else had to hire a minority to be their field manager.  I think the Red Sox owe it to baseball and their fans to show, though, that they take the idea seriously.  If the Red Sox took your attitude to it I think there would be legitimate outrage.  You can't just brush it under the rug because it offends your notion of fair play to be conscious of race.

VBF - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#156390) #

 I think the Red Sox owe it to baseball and their fans to show, though, that they take the idea seriously. 

But why wouldn't they take it seriously? I totally understand the events in history that would make one bring up this issue, but Theo Epstein has to be given a certain amount of credibility. They clearly don't have some sort of secret policy. DeMarlo Hale is their third base coach because he's worked hard his whole life, possibly more, but has earned his job. His job should not be a reward because he's black. What he should be, is credited as a leader in his industry, overcoming adversity to be something minorities could only dream of 50 years ago.

If the Red Sox took your attitude to it I think there would be legitimate outrage. 

If Theo Epstein wrote a public letter to the media, saying that although past events have left a black mark on this organization, he was choosing the best man to steer Red Sox Nation regardless of race, I doubt there woudl be little outrage.

Just to be clear: I'm not advocating ignoring past events and pretending to start off with a clean slate--I'm not. History should be remembered and reparations should be made appropriately. I am however advocating that minorities should still have to prove themselves the best to be given the title of the best. It's the job of the Red Sox to ensure that these people are given the opportunity to prove themselves the best. 

What plagued baseball was that minorities hadn't even been given the opportunity to show everyone what they could do.

Radster - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#156391) #

Could be, or perhaps you overstate the matter. 

I can't deny the history of racism that pervaded the Red Sox organization years ago, but that doesn't mean that the same racism remains and is prevalent today.  Fact is, I honestly can't say one way or the other given that I don't live in Boston and don't know what practices they had (and have) in place.  However, as I understand the MLB hiring policy, it merely requires consideration of minorities for front office/managerial positions but doesn't impose obligations regarding the actual hiring for these positions.  I'm OK with that and so long as the Red Sox, or any other organization, follow that I can't critique them.

Gerry - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 06:07 PM EDT (#156393) #
I don't get the sense Boston is going to dump Francona.  He is two years from the World Series but this year the Red Sox were hit with a lot of injuries.  Also the Beckett and Crisp acquisitions can be blamed for the poor season.  The front office could try and can Francona but I don't see it.
Wildrose - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#156396) #
because the five teams lest impervious to pressure have had no blacks and no Hispanics, EVER, in their top field and front office jobs.

Regarding the Yankees your forgetting about this guy. I would think the Red Sox would be looking for a more sabmetric friendly type manager than Baker. This is a difficult issue, no doubt,  hiring standards in baseball are generally based on the "old boys network" (see our own Jays/Athletics). I'm just not sure you can force a square peg in a round hole and make a team hire a guy like Baker.
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#156399) #
"Dusty Baker would be a great fit for Boston if the Red Sox front office continue their tradition of not owning up to their own failures and seek to pin blame on Francona for the team falling to bits."

If the Red Sox wanted a minority manager, I think Cito would be a better choice.  Much better choice.

I have to agree with Bruce 100% on this one.  The Red Sox and their history of racism is appaling.
Bruce Wrigley - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#156400) #
Wildrose, thank you, I should have remembered Bob Watson who was a very high-profile hire.  Stupid of me not to.
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#156401) #
The AL has historically been lagging when it comes to minority hires - they refused to sign top black talent in the 1960s and subsequently lost almost every All-Star Game.  You think there's a disparity between the two leagues now?  It's nothing compared to the 1960s.

Consider the starting lineups for the 1965 All-Star Game

NATIONAL
---
1. Willie Mays
2. Hank Aaron
3. Willie Stargell
4. Dick Allen
5. Joe Torre
6. Ernie Banks
7. Pete Rose
8. Maury Wills
9. Juan Marichal

AMERICAN
---
1. Dick McAuliffe
2. Brooks Robinson
3. Harmon Killebrew
4. Rocky Colavito
5. Willie Horton
6. Felix Mantilla
7. Vic Davalillo
8. Earl Battey
9. Milt Friggin Pappas

Frank Robinson couldn't crack the starting lineup of the NL squad.  He'd be the best player on the AL team.
Anders - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#156402) #
Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Braves, and Cardinals

Not to make excuses or anything, but it's not like all of these teams have had vacancies for top jobs recently.

Bobby Cox and John Schuerholz have both been in their respective positions with the Braves since 1990.
Joe Torre's managed the Yanks for over 10 years now, and as mentioned they had a black GM, and Cashman's been in since 97
The Cards have had 2 GM's in the last 20 years, and La Russa's been the Manager since 96

As for the Sox and Dodgers, well, who knows. My first reaction to all of this would not be to shout racism though.
Mike Green - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 07:51 PM EDT (#156405) #
Milt Friggin Pappas

Actually, in keeping with the times, his real middle name was "damammasandda". 

Cito would be a fine fit for the Red Sox.
Bruce Wrigley - Monday, October 02 2006 @ 08:35 PM EDT (#156411) #

Well, you'll notice I didn't shout racism.  The Red Sox have a history of it, of course, but I wouldn't say the current gang are racists just because they haven't hired a minority manager recently.  Of course, the Red Sox front office has done little or nothing to counteract the historically accurate perception that the Sox are a racist organization.  I think that's a bad idea; bad for the Red Sox and bad for baseball.

I can say that teams should hire minority candidates sometimes, without maintaining that they're racists if they're don't.  However, I do think they should do some things, some times, to counteract the perception that the Sox are still the creature of Cracker Tom Yawkey.

haddon - Tuesday, October 03 2006 @ 05:42 AM EDT (#156431) #

Uhhhh, just wanted to inform you all that the Epstien hiring WAS the minority hiring that they required "to counteract the historically accurate perception that the Sox are a racist organization".

They hired a 28 year old jewish kid. Not exactly the love of a "Cracker Tom Yawkey".

The Red Sox are free to hire whomever they want now.

Mike Green - Tuesday, October 03 2006 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#156445) #
I think I'll take that one.  Jews have historically been well represented among the GM ranks.  That doesn't mean that the Sox are obliged to hire or not hire anyone.

Geez, there are a number of very well qualified out-of-work minority managers.  Cito Gaston.  Felipe Alou. Frank Robinson. 

Mick Doherty - Tuesday, October 03 2006 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#156449) #

Nobody's commented on this, and honestly I just noticed when updating the story with the Girardi information ... the ex-FLA skipper is the first of the four fired so far who was not a minority manager.

Pretty soon, someone is gonna raise a ruckus, though to be fair, Girardi is the only one whose team put up a season that wouldn't be labeled "disappointing" by many.

Craig B - Tuesday, October 03 2006 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#156450) #
Plus, as has been pointed out, Baker, Alou and Robinson were all out of contract and none are getting any younger.  However, if there isn't any genuine interest in them and they join Cito Gaston, Jerry Manuel, Tony Pena and all the other minority guys on the scrapheap (what's unique about Baker, Alou and Robinson is that they are among the very few minority guys who ever got a second shot at managing) I think you'll see people crying foul!
Pepper Moffatt - Tuesday, October 03 2006 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#156454) #
"Actually, in keeping with the times, his real middle name was "damammasandda".  "

Heh.. I like that a *lot* better.

The only person who deserves the middle name "Friggin'" is Arthur F. Burns for being the "Losing Pitcher Mulcahy" of Fed Reserve Chairmen.
Mike Green - Tuesday, October 03 2006 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#156455) #
On another note, I was thinking about some of the World Series rematch possibilities for this year.  It's been 25 years since a Yankees-Dodgers series, and 42 years since a Yankees-Cardinals series.  Detroit vs. St. Louis would bring me back to 1968 while a Tiger-Padre matchup would bring back the great 84 club of Trammell, Whitaker and Kirk Gibson.  Oakland-LA would, of course, also bring to mind Gibson, and Oakland-Mets would remind me of the error-filled 73 Series.  The Twins-Dodgers met in 1965, just before my time, but the stories of Koufax's game 7 remain.  The 87 Twins victory over the Cardinals will always be a footnote to me, a very clear reminder of the role that luck plays in the game.
Jordan - Tuesday, October 03 2006 @ 12:34 PM EDT (#156458) #

There would actually only be seven possible "new" matchups among these eight contenders:

Padres vs. Twins, Athletics, Yankees (Tigers in 1984)

Mets vs. Twins, Athletics, Tigers (Yankees in 2000)

Dodgers vs. Tigers (Yankees in 1955 et seq, Twins in 1965, A's in 1974 et seq)

Cardinals vs. nobody (A's in 1930 et seq, Yankees in 1942 et seq, Tigers in 1968, Twins in 1987)

Jim - Tuesday, October 03 2006 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#156464) #
The Padres played the Yankees in 1998.
Frank Markotich - Tuesday, October 03 2006 @ 01:24 PM EDT (#156466) #

And the Mets played the A's in 1973

 

Jordan - Tuesday, October 03 2006 @ 01:30 PM EDT (#156468) #

And I should do more fact-checking before making my posts.

Five possible new matchups, then. Is that the fewest possible new matchups in playoff history?

Craig B - Tuesday, October 03 2006 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#156469) #
Jordan, I would assume you mean since the new playoff system of eight teams.  Let me think about it.
Craig B - Tuesday, October 03 2006 @ 01:54 PM EDT (#156473) #

Yes, Jordan.  I think the closest otherwise was 2003 with six...

Marlins vs. Yankees, Red Sox, Twins, A's

Twins vs. Cubs

Red Sox vs. Braves

 

Geoff - Wednesday, October 04 2006 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#156537) #
Next to go? Buck Showalter, fired today.
Magpie - Wednesday, October 04 2006 @ 07:26 PM EDT (#156571) #
In view of what happened when the Yankees and the Diamondbacks fired Showalter, I suppose this pretty much clinches a World Series win for the Texas Rangers in 2007.
Cubs Nip Fish; Bye-Bye, Dusty | 47 comments | Create New Account
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