A rare 12:35 pm weekday start time for your Toronto Blue Jays, who set out for Boston after this game. Justin Miller looks to extend his string of good starts; opposing The Illustrated Man is righty Kyle Lohse. Orlando Hudson's hitting #2 today, and Eric Hinske and Josh Phelps are back in the lineup; Gregg Zaun gets the day-game-after-a-night-game start. Hey Torontonians: it's sunny and 20 degrees! What are you still doing at the office? Get down to the Dome and get yourself a ballgame, a beer and a tan! Vamoose!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3913216967
I know DaBox is pushing The Illustrated Man as the official nickname for Miller, but it just doesn't compare to Tatu. I can't wait to see NFH's K sign for a miller start. And if we act fast Bauxites could even show up in this T-shirt (COMN).
I know DaBox is pushing The Illustrated Man as the official nickname for Miller, but it just doesn't compare to Tatu. I can't wait to see NFH's K sign for a miller start. And if we act fast Bauxites could even show up in this T-shirt (COMN).
Zaun is batting fifth? Never thought I'd see that happen.
Where's Frankie Cat? Nice start with 3 ground balls on only 8 pitches.
I'm a one-man work, so if I go to the Dome I don't make any money. Bleah.
But on the upside, here I am posting in the game thread.
But on the upside, here I am posting in the game thread.
What's the lineup? I missed the start of the broadcast.
Reed, Hudson, Wells, Carlos, Zaun, Hinske, Phelps, Pond, Gomez
Johnson
Hudson
Wells
Delgado
Zaun
Hinske
Phelps
Pond
Gomez
Phelps continues to slide down the order.
Hudson
Wells
Delgado
Zaun
Hinske
Phelps
Pond
Gomez
Phelps continues to slide down the order.
Go Miller! Should I post Ks in the thread in place of hanging them over the rail at the Dome? ;)
"And now, the cleanup hitter, Jose Offerman..."
I *love* that!
I *love* that!
By the way, Sparky is ON FIRE these days. Maybe Pond brought out some competitive fire in him?
Where's Frankie Cat?
I think Jerry said at the beginning of the broadcast that Frank has a groin pull.
I think Jerry said at the beginning of the broadcast that Frank has a groin pull.
Jobu is there, holding The Hammer high right now.
So what's the old joke about not scoring from second on a double? :)
(I assume that Zaun had to hold up to see if the ball could be caught?)
(I assume that Zaun had to hold up to see if the ball could be caught?)
Speaking of baserunning, how does Phelps not go to 3rd on a slow grounder to 2nd that scores Zaun from 3rd???
Dr. Z, I couldn't agree more. Especially when he would have scored just now. Anyone here with eyes on the game?
Interesting to note that the Cubs are calling up Jason Dubois to replace Sammy for the next 2 weeks. He's put up real solid numbers in the minors the last 2 years, and he'd sure look good out in left instead of Berg.
An inanimate carbon rod would look better in left field than Berg.
Justin, I think it's safe to say that Dubois would not have developed if he'd been rotting on the bench in the majors. There's just no way that he was ready for real action, and there was really only room for one Rule 5 player. They kept a pretty good one!
I'm watching and they never showed a replay of what Phelps did-or didn't do. Zaun immediately took off for the plate, I guess Phelps just...forgot or something. Very very odd. Lohse doesn't look particularly sharp either, while Miller looks very sharp-although he started to nibble a tad at the end of the 2nd.
Craig, oh I remember the roster situation at the time. It's too bad a deal couldn't have been worked out similarly to Talley Haines this year (although I'm also sure that the Cubs didn't want to give him up easily either).
This game is just whipping along! Miller's sounding fantastic.
I think I found the same font used for Miller's "I love Billy Koch" tatoo for the Ks.
I think I found the same font used for Miller's "I love Billy Koch" tatoo for the Ks.
Geez-Jeter is 1 for his last 32. Add that to his famous 0-34 streak earlier and that's a hell of a slump. I really think I could go 1-66. Another solid inning from Miller.
Reed Johnson has a 12-game hitting streak going I was unaware of.
It feels like a Friday to me, or at least a Thursday. Yes, a Thursday.
It feels like a Friday to me, or at least a Thursday. Yes, a Thursday.
On the radio, Jerry said that Phelps seemed unsure whether Zaun would go home on the play and hesitated. Of course, if Zaun broke immediately like you say, then Josh's baserunning cost the Jays run #3.
Lohse looked pretty good that inning. Got Hudson on an excuse me check swing, made a nice 2-0 pitch to Wells (lay OFF that outside pitch so you don't pop it up Vernon!!), and struck Delgado out on a nice changeup. Let's hope 2nd inning Lohse returns.
too bad a deal couldn't have been worked out similarly to Talley Haines this year (although I'm also sure that the Cubs didn't want to give him up easily either).
Yeah, it's too bad. I recall at the time, hearing that the Cubs just wanted him back regardless and wouldn't do a deal. They're usually pretty smart with their prospects, so no wonder they wanted to keep him!
Yeah, it's too bad. I recall at the time, hearing that the Cubs just wanted him back regardless and wouldn't do a deal. They're usually pretty smart with their prospects, so no wonder they wanted to keep him!
made a nice 2-0 pitch to Wells (lay OFF that outside pitch so you don't pop it up Vernon!!)
Word must have gotten around the league that that's Vernon's weak spot, because guys have been pitching him away and Wells has been chasing balls out there all season, missing or popping them up. Maybe he needs to crowd the plate a little more so he doesn't feel vulnerable to the outside half?
Word must have gotten around the league that that's Vernon's weak spot, because guys have been pitching him away and Wells has been chasing balls out there all season, missing or popping them up. Maybe he needs to crowd the plate a little more so he doesn't feel vulnerable to the outside half?
Did Jacque Jones just *walk*? Someone call Leonard Nimoy.
Dan Gladden's in the booth with Shulman and Justice now... Gladden was reminiscing about the 1991 ALCS, recalling how happy the Twins were about the decision to start Candiotti (instead of Guzman) in Game 1. Ah, the painful memories!
Offerman is playing 1B and hitting 4th for the Twins?
Gleeman must like that move. Maybe Rivas could bat 5th for protection.
Gleeman must like that move. Maybe Rivas could bat 5th for protection.
People have baseball radar here -- as soon as anything starts happening, someone walks in with a complex question that requires my full attention.
How was that last half-inning?
How was that last half-inning?
He just needs to keep his right shoulder back. I don't know why this has become such a problem for him; he used to slam that pitch back up the middle, hard, by keeping the right shoulder down and back, extending his arms and letting the bat do the work.
Sure, he hit pretty much all singles with it, but a single isn't a bad result. And he generated a lot of 8/L outs - as many as anyone I've ever seen. But I don't care if he hits 200 singles and ten homers. Now, he seems to want to get under that pitch and drive it over the outfielders; and he's getting way under it and late trying to attack the ball.
There's a reason it's called "going with the pitch"... you have to let the bat and ball do the work on the outside pitch. None of this is easy stuff, and I'm sure V-Dub is as frustrated as anyone. He sees that pitch and knows instinctively he can hit it out of the park; and because that automatic reaction takes over, the at-bat's done, he's overswung again, and it's pulled on the ground to short or popped in the air behind the second baseman. There's an element of mental conditioning involved. Knowing him, he's probably working on it.
Sure, he hit pretty much all singles with it, but a single isn't a bad result. And he generated a lot of 8/L outs - as many as anyone I've ever seen. But I don't care if he hits 200 singles and ten homers. Now, he seems to want to get under that pitch and drive it over the outfielders; and he's getting way under it and late trying to attack the ball.
There's a reason it's called "going with the pitch"... you have to let the bat and ball do the work on the outside pitch. None of this is easy stuff, and I'm sure V-Dub is as frustrated as anyone. He sees that pitch and knows instinctively he can hit it out of the park; and because that automatic reaction takes over, the at-bat's done, he's overswung again, and it's pulled on the ground to short or popped in the air behind the second baseman. There's an element of mental conditioning involved. Knowing him, he's probably working on it.
I want to know when the jury is getting back in on Justin Miller, because he's convinced me.
Miller continues to impress. He's got great command of that slider so far-throwing it for early count strikes. 74 pitches through 5.
Was Pond credited with an RBI for his ground out? Trying to reconstruct what happend.
This is a totally premature thought, but... Is it possible that Hinske will turn out to be the lesser acquisition in the Koch trade?
Three bullets hit at Cuddyer in the bottom of the 5th. He retires Reed's bid to be back over .300 with a diving play to his left.
And yes, Pond was given an RBI for his little ground out, the first of his ML career.
And yes, Pond was given an RBI for his little ground out, the first of his ML career.
Baby steps Simon. If only you hit, I'm sure Berg will be cast asunder.
Boy, Pond took a really bad route to that Jones double-that's gotta be caught.
Re: the jury on Miller
When he throws 10% more strikes than he does, yes. Then it's coming in.
When he throws 10% more strikes than he does, yes. Then it's coming in.
Maybe we can call him Gregg "The Tank" Zaun after that play!
That's one of the best plays I've ever seen a catcher make. He had the plate completely blocked, to the extent that Jones had no sliding option, and the ball arrived just ahead of the runner. I'd say 95% of the time th catcher fails to hold on under those circumstances.
WOW! I don't think I've ever seen that! For those not watching, Zaun threw down to 2nd behind Offerman to try to pick him off and the throw hit the seam of the turf, got by Hudson, Wells comes in and throws Offerman out...at the plate! Very very strange, but the Jays'll take it!
Also a fairly amazing stat just put up on TV-Miller has only given up 4 extra base hits this year-including the 2 rather weak ones this inning. That's some solid work.
Also a fairly amazing stat just put up on TV-Miller has only given up 4 extra base hits this year-including the 2 rather weak ones this inning. That's some solid work.
Wow.
I missed a lot having the radio off!
OK. Scoring? 2-8-2?
I missed a lot having the radio off!
OK. Scoring? 2-8-2?
Waitasec. Does Zaun actually get three chances on one play?
One error, one assist, and one putout?
One error, one assist, and one putout?
Feels like 2-8-2, unless they say the play began when Wells picked up the ball.
Intentionally walking Delgado, that should help big D's confidence a bit.
Zaun, this is your chance to be the hero of this game.
C'mon, Gregg, show that Slate guy that he knows nothing!
Come on Zaun!
Make them pay for the intentional walk!
Make them pay for the intentional walk!
Rule 10.11(d). No assist for Zaun.
(d) Do not credit an assist to a fielder whose wild throw permits a runner to advance, even though the runner subsequently is put out as a result of continuous play. A play which follows a misplay (whether or not it is an error) is a new play, and the fielder making any misplay shall not be credited with an assist unless he takes part in the new play.
You learn something every day!
Hey, that reminds me. When does Coach get to take his turn as the Official Scorer? :)
Yeah! Zaun with an RBI!
(d) Do not credit an assist to a fielder whose wild throw permits a runner to advance, even though the runner subsequently is put out as a result of continuous play. A play which follows a misplay (whether or not it is an error) is a new play, and the fielder making any misplay shall not be credited with an assist unless he takes part in the new play.
You learn something every day!
Hey, that reminds me. When does Coach get to take his turn as the Official Scorer? :)
Yeah! Zaun with an RBI!
Justin Miller has fantastic stuff!! I hope he can become more than a 5-inning pitcher though. He's coming off a year layoff so he needs some more time to get his stamina built back up. He could end being a huge addition to this staff.
Alright Eric, a hit is too much to ask, so sacrafice.
Is Zaun hitting under .400 yet? GO ZAUN GO!
Eric's turn to come up big.
Eric's turn to come up big.
Good call, NFH. Someone should find that guy from Slate and staple that article to his forehead.
Ugh-Justice hadn't been too bad to listen to until he started preaching about "small ball" again. It seemed like Shulman was provoking him too-Dan brought it up last inning too. Darnit Hinske!
El Aguila? Uh-oh! :)
Come on, Aquilino. Prove me wrong, baby!
Come on, Aquilino. Prove me wrong, baby!
Can Hinske be any worse? His 5-year deal is starting to look like a very poor signing. I wonder when his days will start being numbered with the Jays.
Ignore my questioning of Zaun hitting 5th in message #2.
However, for the sake of the 7th inning, Phelps hitting 7th? Never thought I'd see that happen.
However, for the sake of the 7th inning, Phelps hitting 7th? Never thought I'd see that happen.
Boy, throwing Lopez out there with a 1-run lead is very gutsy by Tosca. It could very easily back-fire and cost us the game. Lopez just isn't the pitcher we saw last year and the Jays can't afford to have him out there when the game is on the line.
Maybe the Slate article was a plant so that the Twins would read it and walk Delgado to get to Zaun!
And go O-Dog, too, while I'm at it!
That Slate guy is officially a dumbass.
That Slate guy is officially a dumbass.
What a tag by Hudson on the steal attempt. The throw tailed into the runner, Hudson caught it and applied the tag in one motion. He's as good as anyone I've seen on that play.
The defence is sharp today.
The defence is sharp today.
Zaun's doing everything today.
Maybe he should close it out too.
Maybe he should close it out too.
Hey, is this on a free webcast anywhere? Or is radio the only place to hear it?
With regards to Hinske and Lopez just not being the same anymore rather than being in a slump, what makes you think one way rather than the other?
That may have been Aquilino's best inning of the year, even though he was aided by Zaun's caught stealing.
The main thing the Jays are doing now is gunning down people when they try and steal second more than they did last year.
http://www.thegamelive.com/baseballmlb.html#tor
Subculture -- COMN. Best link ever.
Subculture -- COMN. Best link ever.
http://www.thegamelive.com/baseballmlb.html#tor
Nope, no TV. COMN for a list of webcasts.
Nope, no TV. COMN for a list of webcasts.
I also don't understand the hate-on for Hinske and Phelps. I still think both will be above major league average at the end of the year.
WOW! I don't think I've ever seen that! For those not watching, Zaun threw down to 2nd behind Offerman to try to pick him off and the throw hit the seam of the turf, got by Hudson, Wells comes in and throws Offerman out...at the plate! Very very strange, but the Jays'll take it!
Thanks for the update. Sportsline was a little more terse:
"Offerman out at home, Ryan to second on Zaun's throwing error."
Skin colour aside, has anyone else noticed that Simon Pond looks a lot like Larry Fishburne?
NDG, maybe you and I should make some friendly wagers with the not-so-optimistic. ;)
Hinske has been hitting poorly for a year and a quarter now. I think it's too long to call it a slump. He can blame the injury last year all he wants. I'm not sure if I buy it. I hope it's just a slump but I am weary at this point.
Maybe Aquilino is tired from pitching more than he has in whole life. Or maybe Patterson messing with his pitches has caused more harm than good, but his stuff to this point hasn't been Major League quality.
I hope both guys come around because I like them a lot as players. The jury is definitely still out on them though.
Maybe Aquilino is tired from pitching more than he has in whole life. Or maybe Patterson messing with his pitches has caused more harm than good, but his stuff to this point hasn't been Major League quality.
I hope both guys come around because I like them a lot as players. The jury is definitely still out on them though.
Not having Escobar in the rotation is a big help in the anti-base stealing department. Doc is even holding runners better. And of course they've got the incomparable Cash behind the dish.
intentional walk to get those bases loaded with one out!!
O Dawg on the way up!
O Dawg on the way up!
This is insane - twice in three nights the first play I've seen on the gamecast is a sac bunt...not complaining...
Can Hinske be any worse? His 5-year deal is starting to look like a very poor signing. I wonder when his days will start being numbered with the Jays.
Paging Arty Moreno, paging Arty Moreno...
The Angels have Dallas McPherson on the farm in AA, but if they fancy themselves as a contender, they might try to trade for a 3B with some MLB experience.
He can blame the injury last year all he wants. I'm not sure if I buy it.
You're saying that the team faked the surgery?
You're saying that the team faked the surgery?
The game is on TV in the States on ESPN. Anyone in Canada with Extra-Innings (like me) also has it.
I don't have a real problem with the sac bunt. Especially when it's followed by an intentional walk.
Bases loaded with 1 out actually has a higher expected runs figure than 2nd and 3rd with nobody out...
jc
Bases loaded with 1 out actually has a higher expected runs figure than 2nd and 3rd with nobody out...
jc
Is it just me or should someone pinch run for phelps now to maybe beat out a slow roller or convince the twins a middle infield DP is safer...
The sac bunt is great play in the situation get the runner to third with less than 2 out (and you are only sacrificing Gomez turn at the plate). One run meaningful in is this game. Lately, Tosca has been managing a little bit more and though the results aren't there, I think this is a positive step.
Have you ever noticed when hudson jogs out of the plate between pitches he looks like he is having a GREAT time just playing?
And let me add that it's a classless move to make a pitcher walk the bases loaded and then remove them from the game. That baserunner should not be Lohse's responsibility.
I suppose it's a little obvious that I'm a Lohse owner in one of my fantasy leagues :)
I suppose it's a little obvious that I'm a Lohse owner in one of my fantasy leagues :)
Come on O-dog!
Unfortunately, the Jays have been terrible with the bases loaded. Or so it seems.
Unfortunately, the Jays have been terrible with the bases loaded. Or so it seems.
Can anyone on this team get a runner home from third with than 2 out?
try open URL in media player and use http://www.jr-digital.com/cjcl.asx
Technically, all stations should black out the game, Fawaz, and not webcast it. The Fan 590 usually remembers to black it out, but the rest don't. It's the same broadcast on all of them.
Have you ever noticed when hudson jogs out of the plate between pitches he looks like he is having a GREAT time just playing?
That's a big part of why I love him.
Have you ever noticed when hudson jogs out of the plate between pitches he looks like he is having a GREAT time just playing?
That's a big part of why I love him.
Of course Hinske's injury annd surgery was real but he claimed that's why he had trouble hitting, but he hasn't hit since declaring himself healthy either. Why would we believe the injury was the cause of his "slump"?
Come on Carlos!! or maybe they will intentionally walk him and then Zaun can hit a HUGE hit again!
This is a tad Tosca-esque. 3 different pitchers for 3 consecutive hitters.
Quality AB for Vernon. Rincon was feeding him fastballs away and eventually Vernon leaned out and lined one over the second baseman. Another pitching change - Gardenhire is burning his pen, and the Jays lead by three with Carlos up.
The way Carlos is hitting? No way they advance the runners on purpose...Good time for Carlos to bust out...
Help! I can't listen to the game right now...what's the score???
5-2, Toronto. Still two on with two out for Delgado.
Yeah Vernon!
And thanks guys for the COMN tip. Now, uh, what is it?
And thanks guys for the COMN tip. Now, uh, what is it?
5-2 jays...I didn't get to see Wells' put out of Offerman at home...was it pretty?
Of course Hinske's injury annd surgery was real but he claimed that's why he had trouble hitting, but he hasn't hit since declaring himself healthy either. Why would we believe the injury was the cause of his "slump"?
Because it makes a whole lot of sense. Recovering from a hand injury is not something you do overnight or instantaneously. It is not a switch that is flipped. Being out for so long, and having to play differently for so long because of the injury, has probably affected him. Let's say you had to change your swing for a couple of months. Now you don't need to change it as much or at all anymore; is it easy to just flip back to what you were doing?
When presented with two options, one being that Hinske will never be a good player again because he's just not the same guy, and the other being that his injury is still having effects (not neccessarily pain, but changes to his approach etc that he has to get out of and further adjustments he has to make), what is the more reasonable explanation?
Because it makes a whole lot of sense. Recovering from a hand injury is not something you do overnight or instantaneously. It is not a switch that is flipped. Being out for so long, and having to play differently for so long because of the injury, has probably affected him. Let's say you had to change your swing for a couple of months. Now you don't need to change it as much or at all anymore; is it easy to just flip back to what you were doing?
When presented with two options, one being that Hinske will never be a good player again because he's just not the same guy, and the other being that his injury is still having effects (not neccessarily pain, but changes to his approach etc that he has to get out of and further adjustments he has to make), what is the more reasonable explanation?
And let me add that it's a classless move to make a pitcher walk the bases loaded and then remove them from the game. That baserunner should not be Lohse's responsibility.
Believe me, Jacko, I understand why the fantasy ramifications are unpleasant for you. But I think it's the smart way to intentionally walk a batter.
I'm a big opponent of having relievers intentionally walk their first batter. After the reliever works out his release point during warmups and psyches himself up to pitch, the last thing I want is to throw it all off by having him go through the motions of tossing four wide ones.
Believe me, Jacko, I understand why the fantasy ramifications are unpleasant for you. But I think it's the smart way to intentionally walk a batter.
I'm a big opponent of having relievers intentionally walk their first batter. After the reliever works out his release point during warmups and psyches himself up to pitch, the last thing I want is to throw it all off by having him go through the motions of tossing four wide ones.
COMN means Click On My Name -- if you go back to my posts where I said COMN and click on my name you'll get a link to a page of stations webcasting the Jays broadcast.
Not to be a wet blanket NFH, but there is a third option...Hinske is doing exactly what he did before, but he's been figured out and isn't making adjustments.
Right on, Mike D. This is why we pay you the big bucks to do analysis here. The last thing a new, cold pitcher needs is to throw four wide ones.
Don't get me started on IBBs, inherited runners and whose responsibility they SHOULD be...
Gregg Zaun keeps inventing new ways to get base hits.
Not to be a wet blanket NFH, but there is a third option...Hinske is doing exactly what he did before, but he's been figured out and isn't making adjustments
That's fine. That's a much better argument than casting doubt on the extent, nature or reality of Hinske's injury.
That's fine. That's a much better argument than casting doubt on the extent, nature or reality of Hinske's injury.
WOOHOO, our *closer* Adams is getting ready to shut the door! Sarcasm? From moi?
there is a third option...Hinske is doing exactly what he did before, but he's been figured out and isn't making adjustments.
That sounds reasonable to me. I don't think it's a matter of not getting back to where he used to be. The organization must have tonnes of footage, etc. from when he was going well. If he is healthy, then I'd guess pitchers have figured him out.
That sounds reasonable to me. I don't think it's a matter of not getting back to where he used to be. The organization must have tonnes of footage, etc. from when he was going well. If he is healthy, then I'd guess pitchers have figured him out.
Hinske has been hitting poorly for a year and a quarter now.
Hinske's OPS+ last year was 96. His VORP 16.6. This after he had a disasterous first month. What's your definition of poor?
Hinske's OPS+ last year was 96. His VORP 16.6. This after he had a disasterous first month. What's your definition of poor?
Anyone notice yesterday's hard luck losers at the other of Johnson and Schmidt's gems? Clement went 8 giving up just 1 run and Hampton gave up 2 in a CG!
Should I repost my Terry Adams/Toronto closer rant from last night?
This is what I want Terry Adams doing. Throw strikes. Make them hit you... getting base hits is hard, especially when you have an 0-1 or 0-2 count.
God forbid I should feel comfortable in the 9th...Go Adams!!! I mean it! GO!
Geez, you guys are a broken record. The guy's given up two singles, and you're bailing out!?
I still think Zaun should be closing out this game.
Geez, Blanco is hitting for himself...the Twins bench takes a huge hit with Stewart and Mientkiewicz out.
Would Woodward or a better SS have made that play? Anyone seen it?
Two of which were ground balls. I'm trying not to criticize Thor, but anyway, it's not his fault that last one wasn't an out.
C'mon, Adams. At this rate you may never get your grade ten.
Terry Fuc*in Adams!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Arghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!
Well that is one way to undo a days good work.....
Here is a mixed bag of info on Hinske, FWIW:
his career batting record
his 2004 offensive break-down (scroll down to the bottom), and
his defensive statistics
I did not know that Hinske was a first baseman in single A, converted to third (like Tim Wallach), later in his minor league career. The defensive statistics show that he has improved somewhat this year over last. His 2002 ROY may be a bit over his a head (you have to adjust his Sacramento stats somewhat as it is the PCL), but on the other hand his minor league career is clearly indicative of a player much better than he has shown in the last year and a quarter.
Finally, his hitting this year has been plain bad, and not the least bit unlucky. His line drive percentage has been low.
his career batting record
his 2004 offensive break-down (scroll down to the bottom), and
his defensive statistics
I did not know that Hinske was a first baseman in single A, converted to third (like Tim Wallach), later in his minor league career. The defensive statistics show that he has improved somewhat this year over last. His 2002 ROY may be a bit over his a head (you have to adjust his Sacramento stats somewhat as it is the PCL), but on the other hand his minor league career is clearly indicative of a player much better than he has shown in the last year and a quarter.
Finally, his hitting this year has been plain bad, and not the least bit unlucky. His line drive percentage has been low.
This has to be the end of the Terry Adams closer experiment. He is Cliff Politte reincarnated. He can't do this anymore.
I hope this is the end of the Terry Adams in Toronto experiment.
From last night
Adams last had a 'clear' inning on April 24th. At that point he had pitched 11 innings and given up 4 hits and 2 runs (but 7 walks).
Since then he's pitched 9.1 innings and given up 15! hits, 5 walks and 5 runs.
Now I'm not saying they should replace him as closer (although I agree with Craig that Speier should be the guy once he's healthy), I just find it amazing that any Blue Jay that pitches the ninth in a close game develops a case of 'closeritis suckitis'. Is it Voodoo? Can't Jobu do something about this?
Add todays totals and I'm now postive the ghost of Bill Caudill haunts the Jays bullpen. Could we arrange for an exorcism?
Adams last had a 'clear' inning on April 24th. At that point he had pitched 11 innings and given up 4 hits and 2 runs (but 7 walks).
Since then he's pitched 9.1 innings and given up 15! hits, 5 walks and 5 runs.
Now I'm not saying they should replace him as closer (although I agree with Craig that Speier should be the guy once he's healthy), I just find it amazing that any Blue Jay that pitches the ninth in a close game develops a case of 'closeritis suckitis'. Is it Voodoo? Can't Jobu do something about this?
Add todays totals and I'm now postive the ghost of Bill Caudill haunts the Jays bullpen. Could we arrange for an exorcism?
Well, that post wins the award for "worst timing".
Adams didn't do anything wrong there until LeCroy. Even that wasn't that bad.
I told you LeCroy was good.
Adams is no longer the closer in obvious news.
Adams is no longer the closer in obvious news.
I wonder who Terry will blame today's poor effort on?
"Adams didn't do anything wrong there until LeCroy. Even that wasn't that bad."
Hey gave up 3 singles and a homer in one inning - how is that not "that" bad. I guess he could of given up 2 grandslams - if you look at it that way, I guess he did a bang up job.
Hey gave up 3 singles and a homer in one inning - how is that not "that" bad. I guess he could of given up 2 grandslams - if you look at it that way, I guess he did a bang up job.
That's easy; he'll say that Gomez shoulda turned a DP...
If they don't come back to win this game, this defeat has to demoralize the Jays. To play such a excellent game only to have your closer suck ass.
This would mean we haven't won any of our past 3 series. We are losing ground and we haven't even played the Yanks or Angels yet. The team is already fading away from contention.
This would mean we haven't won any of our past 3 series. We are losing ground and we haven't even played the Yanks or Angels yet. The team is already fading away from contention.
Tosca just got 0WNZ0R3D on the Pond/Menechino move.
To paraphrase Jim Mora...Contention? You're talking about contention?
Baseball radar again -- I missed everything between my last post and now. I came back to my office and said "Why are the Jays batting?"
ARRRGHHH!!!! Everybody together now ... 'there will be better days... there will be better days....'
Let Frasor close - the others have had their chance.
Unbelievable, huh NFH? Tune in tomorrow for more 'Life with Terry'...
I can't handle Adams on a weekday afternoon. At least when I'm at home at night I can self-medicate.
I can't stay mad at LeCroy for too long. He looks too jovial. He's like a brown-bearded Santa.
This bullpen committee thing just doesn't seem to work.... according to Moneyball (which I really liked), ALL these above average relievers should be able to close. What the heck then!!!
Somebody has put a curse on jay closers and de gato's bat this year.
Somebody has put a curse on jay closers and de gato's bat this year.
Well...Frason couldn't go today, but otherwise I'm inclined to give him a shot, though I'm not oblivious to how failure could stunt his development...
4-6 in the last 10 games.
By the all-star break, I could see the Jays being 15-20 games back. Tell me there is a ray of light at the end of the tunnel. I am sick of this crap. I'm glad most Torontonians are smart and avoid going to the games unless it's $2 ticket night.
Looking at the games on tv, it looks like most night there are less than 12,000 bums in the seat.
By the all-star break, I could see the Jays being 15-20 games back. Tell me there is a ray of light at the end of the tunnel. I am sick of this crap. I'm glad most Torontonians are smart and avoid going to the games unless it's $2 ticket night.
Looking at the games on tv, it looks like most night there are less than 12,000 bums in the seat.
I wonder if Adams will blame Hinske for the grand slam ....
Ugly, ugly. I never want to see Terry Adams in a save situation again.
Ugly, ugly. I never want to see Terry Adams in a save situation again.
Is it my imagination, or have there been a disproportionate number of heartbreaking losses in the first 41 games? You expect 1, maybe 2, and it seems like there might have been 4 or 5. I'll have to check.
Oh yeah while I'm at it FU Hinske!!!! Send this bum to AAA because he's a piece of crap.
Give me back Ed Sprague and Rob Ducey!
Give me back Ed Sprague and Rob Ducey!
Adams has to go, he's a joke!! Enough is enough!! He doesn't have the cojones to handle the job. Tosca better stop calling him the closer, or he should go too. This just s*cks.
I'll go you one further, Jordan. I never want to see Terry Adams again, period. And that includes his starring role on the Trailer Park Boys.
I don't know if anyone's looked into this, but I'm wondering if all the career numbers these guys have put up are a function of managers keeping them out of the fire? I know Ligtenberg closed as a rookie, but other than that, there's no evidence of clutch performances.
Spartan, I'm going to try to be charitable here.
It takes two to tango. Adams's approach was right. His pitches were pretty good (I'm going on location and sequence, since I was on radio and GameDay). If those pitches get hit, it's not necessarily his fault. (TV watchers... how was his velocity?)
Adams gave up a ground ball to Hunter, a fly ball to Ryan, a good line drive to Cuddyer, another grounder to Blanco, and then LeCroy's homer. In another world, that could have been zero runs, or two, or three. It turned out to be four.
Sometimes you do things right, and don't get the result you want, or even the one you deserve. I know it's easier to blame Adams, particularly since people can ascribe some sort of moral failing to him. But neither baseball nor fate works that way.
It takes two to tango. Adams's approach was right. His pitches were pretty good (I'm going on location and sequence, since I was on radio and GameDay). If those pitches get hit, it's not necessarily his fault. (TV watchers... how was his velocity?)
Adams gave up a ground ball to Hunter, a fly ball to Ryan, a good line drive to Cuddyer, another grounder to Blanco, and then LeCroy's homer. In another world, that could have been zero runs, or two, or three. It turned out to be four.
Sometimes you do things right, and don't get the result you want, or even the one you deserve. I know it's easier to blame Adams, particularly since people can ascribe some sort of moral failing to him. But neither baseball nor fate works that way.
http://www.battersbox.ca/archives/00000930.shtml
Asianflow,
As a Sprague myself, let me assure you that you don't want Ed. We like to maintain a certain standard of civility here, of which I think that "FU Hinske" falls short. Besides, I don't think that Eric is a lost cause just yet (COMN).
Asianflow,
As a Sprague myself, let me assure you that you don't want Ed. We like to maintain a certain standard of civility here, of which I think that "FU Hinske" falls short. Besides, I don't think that Eric is a lost cause just yet (COMN).
Yeah, the jays have been unlucky (on top of not playing well) both in heartbreaks and pythogorean won-loss ratios.
Hopefully things balance out THIS year.
Any closers on the market? Throw in a reliable guy and the rest of the pen will fall in place.
My keys to saving this season:
1) Get closer
2) Cash has to hit a bit and stop balls in the dirt
3) De Gato has to hit like De Gato can
4) A utility infielder that can catch the ball for defensive replacement time would be nice
5) starting pitching keeps doing like they been doing
Hopefully things balance out THIS year.
Any closers on the market? Throw in a reliable guy and the rest of the pen will fall in place.
My keys to saving this season:
1) Get closer
2) Cash has to hit a bit and stop balls in the dirt
3) De Gato has to hit like De Gato can
4) A utility infielder that can catch the ball for defensive replacement time would be nice
5) starting pitching keeps doing like they been doing
How about Adams for John Franco-he may be 72 but he's "experienced."
I'm sure a gardener somewhere could use that that sack of manure...
http://www.thewolfshack.com
Asianflow, I know that all these years of being a Vancouver Grizllies and Toronto Raptors fan have left you jaded, but have some positive thoughts!
The Jays aren't that bad.
Asianflow, I know that all these years of being a Vancouver Grizllies and Toronto Raptors fan have left you jaded, but have some positive thoughts!
The Jays aren't that bad.
The Jays dont need a "proven closer" until they are ready to contend and that isnt this year. I think JP was hoping that between Adams, Lightenberg, Lopez and Speier one reliever would step up and at least be somewhat serviceable in the role for this year. Aqualino melting down and Speier getting hurt put a dent in those plans. I still think Speier when healthy will do the best job and Frasor seems to be a find so far. When we are ready to contend in 2005,2006 hopefully Peterson, Rosario and or League can become the "Man" to finish games off. It sure is frustrating right now though.
Might Adams be injured? "Proven closer" or not, he's not this bad.
The problem is he didn't strike anybody out. Put just one K in during that 5-batter sequence (a good reliever ought to strike out at least 20% of the batters he faces) and everything changes. Yesterday he did the job because he struck guys out. Today he didn't. And because he doesn't have pinpoint control, good hitters have a good shot of getting hits if they make contact.
Five to two that anyone questioning Adams's cojones throws like a girl.
I'm glad most Torontonians are smart and avoid going to the games unless it's $2 ticket night.
Yeah, 'cause who would have a good time at the ballpark? If you don't like baseball, what the hell are you doing here?
I'm glad most Torontonians are smart and avoid going to the games unless it's $2 ticket night.
Yeah, 'cause who would have a good time at the ballpark? If you don't like baseball, what the hell are you doing here?
Yup, short-term it's easy to be frustrated... we're passionate fans after all. But stay positive or risk being bitter men :)
This is a team of MANY new guys especially pitchers, that is not yet playing as well as the sum of it's parts. Let's have some chemistry and order develop, and we'll be in good shape.
And just dream of what might have happened if we'd got Gagne instead of Propokec :(
This is a team of MANY new guys especially pitchers, that is not yet playing as well as the sum of it's parts. Let's have some chemistry and order develop, and we'll be in good shape.
And just dream of what might have happened if we'd got Gagne instead of Propokec :(
Does anyone think that Adam Peterson could get the call up soon? How has Bob File looked in his return from injury I noticed he got the save last night. It could be worse, we could have the Indians bullpen.:)
Is Wilner doing his call-in show with JP tonight? If so, what time? I'd hate to be in JP's shoes if he's doing it on the heels of this meltdown.
These last 2 outings must be the Baseball Gods giving Adams his due for passing the buck on his blown save in KC...
I agree with Kristian's assessment, and with Craig's moderation. Nevertheless, it isn't good for anybody's morale or development -- let alone attendance and the club's financial bottom line -- to have a horrible back end of the bullpen. A 50% save percentage doesn't cut it, not when the 'pen has been given its share of three-run leads or better. This isn't a "wow, Koch makes me nervous" situation. This is utterly wasting courageous efforts by the Jays' lineup and starting rotation.
Now is the time for the Jays' front office to show either (1) the necessary creativity to figure out how to use their pitchers such that the Jays generally win games they deserve to win, or (2) the requisite humility to recognize that the bullpen whole is much less than the sum of its parts, and that personnel changes have to be made immediately.
Especially since this isn't a corps of young kids learning the ropes and developing the mental edge necessary to be effective in relief. These are veteran free agents and acquisitions, pitching at a consistently and unacceptably horrible level. Either shuffle the deck, J.P., or admit that "mistakes were made" and blow the bullpen up.
Now is the time for the Jays' front office to show either (1) the necessary creativity to figure out how to use their pitchers such that the Jays generally win games they deserve to win, or (2) the requisite humility to recognize that the bullpen whole is much less than the sum of its parts, and that personnel changes have to be made immediately.
Especially since this isn't a corps of young kids learning the ropes and developing the mental edge necessary to be effective in relief. These are veteran free agents and acquisitions, pitching at a consistently and unacceptably horrible level. Either shuffle the deck, J.P., or admit that "mistakes were made" and blow the bullpen up.
TV watchers... how was his velocity?
It didn't look at that good to me. ESPN doesn't have a radar, but they were getting some real good swings on his fastball. Strangely, he threw a first pitch strike to everyone in the inning except LeCroy. But there's just no life to his pitches at times. He threw a few flat pitches to Ryan and Cuddyer that they fouled back. Hunter ripped his single (yes it was a grounder, but it was a rocket). Cuddyer did too-lining one about 4 feet away from Delgado, who hardly had time to move. The pitch to LeCroy was string-straight and the big fella put it out to one of the deepest spots Skydome has. Wells' reaction when it went over the fence was priceless-he drooped his head and put his glove over his face. Blanco's hit was just nicely placed-right up the middle-if Gomez wouldn't have pumped, he MIGHT have had him, but still maybe not-he had to run about 25 feet just to get to it.
In summary (what is this, a paper?), Adams just doesn't look like he's got enough stuff to close. What's his out pitch? Can he bust a fastball by someone? He's one of those guys I watch pitch and say "Hmmm, how does he get people out?" He's not as horrible a pitcher as he's looked, but his 5.09 ERA is relatively indicative that he's not the answer for the Jays in the 9th.
It didn't look at that good to me. ESPN doesn't have a radar, but they were getting some real good swings on his fastball. Strangely, he threw a first pitch strike to everyone in the inning except LeCroy. But there's just no life to his pitches at times. He threw a few flat pitches to Ryan and Cuddyer that they fouled back. Hunter ripped his single (yes it was a grounder, but it was a rocket). Cuddyer did too-lining one about 4 feet away from Delgado, who hardly had time to move. The pitch to LeCroy was string-straight and the big fella put it out to one of the deepest spots Skydome has. Wells' reaction when it went over the fence was priceless-he drooped his head and put his glove over his face. Blanco's hit was just nicely placed-right up the middle-if Gomez wouldn't have pumped, he MIGHT have had him, but still maybe not-he had to run about 25 feet just to get to it.
In summary (what is this, a paper?), Adams just doesn't look like he's got enough stuff to close. What's his out pitch? Can he bust a fastball by someone? He's one of those guys I watch pitch and say "Hmmm, how does he get people out?" He's not as horrible a pitcher as he's looked, but his 5.09 ERA is relatively indicative that he's not the answer for the Jays in the 9th.
Good on Wilner to tell that jackass on the phone to put up or shut up.
The Pond/Menechino move was funny. Looking good Carlos. Just another terrible loss for a team that just is never going to fire.
Through 41 games, this is probably worst case scenario. The only saving grace is the Red Sox and Yankees haven't gotten off to blistering starts.
Through 41 games, this is probably worst case scenario. The only saving grace is the Red Sox and Yankees haven't gotten off to blistering starts.
I think Fawaz may be right... Adams may have displeased the fates by ratting on Hinske after the KC loss...
Hey Paul D, yeah I know being a Vancouver Grizz and Rap fan has made me a little jaded but c'mon this team is a disaster. 41 games in tells me it's not a cold streak or a fluke. The Jays really are this bad. If we want this team to improve on last season when is the winning going to start?
As for people saying we should contend next season, with a handcuff on payroll how are we going to contend with the players we have? People mention the prospects, but even most prospects need a year or 3 of seasoning. When you lay most of your eggs on prospects, that's not a good sign.
JP has been given a free pass so far, and I think it's time for him to take some heat. Going into a season without a closer? What quality team goes into a season without a closer? Look at all the World Series and Divison champs, when was the last time a team that won something that mattered, went into the season without a closer.
As for people saying we should contend next season, with a handcuff on payroll how are we going to contend with the players we have? People mention the prospects, but even most prospects need a year or 3 of seasoning. When you lay most of your eggs on prospects, that's not a good sign.
JP has been given a free pass so far, and I think it's time for him to take some heat. Going into a season without a closer? What quality team goes into a season without a closer? Look at all the World Series and Divison champs, when was the last time a team that won something that mattered, went into the season without a closer.
NFH and Fawaz, for those of us not listening to Wilner can you give us some highlights (or lowlights, apparently like that last caller)?
What quality team goes into a season without a closer? Look at all the World Series and Divison champs, when was the last time a team that won something that mattered, went into the season without a closer.
Last year.
NEXT!
Last year.
NEXT!
The moron in question said Tosca wasn't preparing his team for the game (hey, I don't like Tosca either, but only for his in-game incompetence) and the Jays weren't hustling - he even took a crack at the Cat!
What quality team goes into a season without a closer?
Try Boston Red Sox 2003.
Seriously, if you think this team is going to play .415 ball the rest of the season you are a moron. Last year they were 19 and 22 at this point - just two games better. This team has more talent than last year's team.
Try Boston Red Sox 2003.
Seriously, if you think this team is going to play .415 ball the rest of the season you are a moron. Last year they were 19 and 22 at this point - just two games better. This team has more talent than last year's team.
Also, the Jays did go into the season with a closer. Last year's closer. Lopez. No one expected him to struggle like he has. He was a perfectly good closer solution last year. Now all of a sudden it's "the Jays had no closer!" That's wrong.
The caller said that the Jays just were not hustling and that killed them. Wilner said "Who? Who isn't hustling? Give me their names."
Caller says Cat. Wilner almost roars at him, "He has a pulled groin and can barely walk! Who else?"
Caller says Wells. Wilner runs down Wells' at-bats for the game, almost all good, asks who else. Caller basically shuts up.
Caller says Cat. Wilner almost roars at him, "He has a pulled groin and can barely walk! Who else?"
Caller says Wells. Wilner runs down Wells' at-bats for the game, almost all good, asks who else. Caller basically shuts up.
Asian Flow
JP is not relying on the prospects. He is relying on Hudson, Hinkse, Phelps, Wells ect, to produce. He needs the young vets to come around - the prospects that will come up next year will be mostly role guys that hit at the bottom of the order - except maybe Rios.
This team is not as bad as they have been playing. If we had a decent closer we could be at 500. by now. But JP just didn't have the budget to get a closer, or else he would have. Imagine what JP could do with the budget Gord Ash had.
Bad Bad loss - but look at the postives. We got some timely hitting - Phelps had a good day.
JP is not relying on the prospects. He is relying on Hudson, Hinkse, Phelps, Wells ect, to produce. He needs the young vets to come around - the prospects that will come up next year will be mostly role guys that hit at the bottom of the order - except maybe Rios.
This team is not as bad as they have been playing. If we had a decent closer we could be at 500. by now. But JP just didn't have the budget to get a closer, or else he would have. Imagine what JP could do with the budget Gord Ash had.
Bad Bad loss - but look at the postives. We got some timely hitting - Phelps had a good day.
Billy Koch! The last caller wanted Billy Koch back!
Here's a question - didn't JP target 2005 as the time to contend? I'm just concerned about the way the timeline is working out. Rios et al are going to take a while to really come into their own, at which point the Wells and Halladay contracts will end...Can anyone ease my mind here?
The 0-Drum is on the air!
I had customers and missed it! What'd they say?
I had customers and missed it! What'd they say?
Caller said they shoulda brought the 'O Drum' down, Willner agreed.
Okay I've finally calmed down after I was tempted to punch the wall.....................
I know JP is handcuffed by payroll restriction but I'm curious to know what is the Twins payroll? I'm guessing it's in the 50-57 range. I'm just flat out dejected right now and I thought this team could win 90 games going into this season.
BTW this is my first time hearing the Jays postgame show and I love the banter between the host and the callers. I'm hearing some gems especially about the guy that said Cat didn't hustle.
I know JP is handcuffed by payroll restriction but I'm curious to know what is the Twins payroll? I'm guessing it's in the 50-57 range. I'm just flat out dejected right now and I thought this team could win 90 games going into this season.
BTW this is my first time hearing the Jays postgame show and I love the banter between the host and the callers. I'm hearing some gems especially about the guy that said Cat didn't hustle.
Fawaz K:
I think most of the weapons are already in place. The rookies will come up and fill in holes - but they won't be our main guys. With the good core of talent we have - those rookies should fill our holes.
I think most of the weapons are already in place. The rookies will come up and fill in holes - but they won't be our main guys. With the good core of talent we have - those rookies should fill our holes.
I agree with Robert and Craig. The Jays are too good and talented a team to continue at this pace plus Lopez was a decent closer at the end of last year. Of course Ryan Kohlmeier was a decent closer a few years ago in Baltimore at the end of year as well but Lopez struggles have really hampered the Jays. JP should be held accountable like any GM and his bullpen signings or trades over the past 2 years havent been very successful, Tam, Creek, Lightenberg, Adams(so far) but he has had success in Frasor and Lopez 2003. I mentioned the Indians bullpen in another post and with Riske, Jimenez, Stewart and Betancourt their bullpen looked strong but it has been a disaster far worse than the Jays. It just shows that its hard to count on relievers from year to year, I think Peter Gammons mentioned this with some stats in his Diamond Notes two columns ago. Problem is the Jays wont attract fans by losing games unfortuntaley so this rough start is going to be hard on the gate.
Look, Craig, while the Red Sox and Marlins admittedly went into the season without a closer, both clubs had to pay through the nose (either in cash, prospects, or both) to stabilize their bullpens. Even then, both clubs spent additional money to do so this offseason.
I don't agree with Asianflow's point, but I don't agree with your dismissal of the issue. My problem is that the bullpen management has been rudderless. The Jays entered with a deliberate and seemingly defiant lack of clarity into each reliever's role, and pitchers have been assigned and reassigned in an apparently knee-jerk way.
The canard I often see tossed around on Prospectus is that "it's a manager's job to lead," so therefore players should theoretically have no problem being used in any role whatsoever, provided that managerial leadership is strong. Maybe Tosca and Patterson haven't done the job in keeping the relievers sharp, ready and willing to pitch at any time and in any situation. Then again, drawing on Robert's point, maybe the relief corps doesn't have it in them to bring the back-of-the-bullpen strikeout rate that takes matters out of the hands of BABIP fate. Certainly, all of the Jays relievers (except Frasor) appear to have major, major flaws (Ligtenberg and lefties; Adams and contact hitters; etc.) that the opposition can exploit such that they wouldn't make good "closers."
Personally, I think Speier should have been given the job and a bit of rope to play with. Of course, my plan wouldn't have worked either, given his injury.
I don't agree with Asianflow's point, but I don't agree with your dismissal of the issue. My problem is that the bullpen management has been rudderless. The Jays entered with a deliberate and seemingly defiant lack of clarity into each reliever's role, and pitchers have been assigned and reassigned in an apparently knee-jerk way.
The canard I often see tossed around on Prospectus is that "it's a manager's job to lead," so therefore players should theoretically have no problem being used in any role whatsoever, provided that managerial leadership is strong. Maybe Tosca and Patterson haven't done the job in keeping the relievers sharp, ready and willing to pitch at any time and in any situation. Then again, drawing on Robert's point, maybe the relief corps doesn't have it in them to bring the back-of-the-bullpen strikeout rate that takes matters out of the hands of BABIP fate. Certainly, all of the Jays relievers (except Frasor) appear to have major, major flaws (Ligtenberg and lefties; Adams and contact hitters; etc.) that the opposition can exploit such that they wouldn't make good "closers."
Personally, I think Speier should have been given the job and a bit of rope to play with. Of course, my plan wouldn't have worked either, given his injury.
It's frustrating that a team like Baltimore can spend the big bucks and still find these fantastic kids to fill out a bullpen... I know J.P doesn't want to move any kids, but we're going to need a cheap effective bullpen at some point and teams are going to want talent for talent (see Werth for Frasor)...
Spartan I'm curious to know when you say most of the weapons are already in place who are you talking about?
I count Wells,Doc, and Hudson. Delgado is a FA after this season and there's a chance he will bolt. Phelps and Hinske are struggling. Cat is a FA after this season. Johnson is betters suited for a 4th OF role. I'm not convinced Batista and Lilly are our answers at the 2 and 3 position.
I count Wells,Doc, and Hudson. Delgado is a FA after this season and there's a chance he will bolt. Phelps and Hinske are struggling. Cat is a FA after this season. Johnson is betters suited for a 4th OF role. I'm not convinced Batista and Lilly are our answers at the 2 and 3 position.
What do you guys think of Miller going to the bullpen at some point. From the games I have watched his fastball/slider combination would look pretty nasty coming out of the bullpen and facing these hitters once. Plus I think he could put up some great K numbers which we need out of the bullpen.
Oh yeah, and I've come to tha conclusion that all the Jays were on the Juice last year and really possess no natural pop...
Or I would have given Lopez the job to start the season. He was punished for having a bad spring, stripped of his "ace reliever" duties before the season even started, and looked demoralized in early April.
Craig, I wish I could agree with you completely, because I want to join your fight against alarmism!
Craig, I wish I could agree with you completely, because I want to join your fight against alarmism!
I like Miller in the 'Pen, but who's gonna start? A bullpen is useless if the starter gives up a ton of runs...
Rios et al are going to take a while to really come into their own, at which point the Wells and Halladay contracts will end...Can anyone ease my mind here?
Firstly, Wells and Halladay will be Jays for the next four years. Are you suggesting that Rios will take 4 years to develop?
Secondly, get this through your head: good players will eventually leave town. You can't do anything about it unless you pland to give the Jays $100M a year to add to salary. Have faith in the minor league system and realize that by the time that Wells, Hinske, and Halladay are out the door, the Jays lineup will be stocked with good pre-arbitration players--whose names you probably don't even know yet.
Firstly, Wells and Halladay will be Jays for the next four years. Are you suggesting that Rios will take 4 years to develop?
Secondly, get this through your head: good players will eventually leave town. You can't do anything about it unless you pland to give the Jays $100M a year to add to salary. Have faith in the minor league system and realize that by the time that Wells, Hinske, and Halladay are out the door, the Jays lineup will be stocked with good pre-arbitration players--whose names you probably don't even know yet.
Fawaz K:
Well they've got Wells, Hudson, Cash, Phelps and Hinske for the lineup already - And i think Hinkse and Phelps will come around. Also I think Delgado will be back, so we just need a SS, and two more outfields (maybe Cat will be back too).
In the Rotation, its pretty much set for next year. Just take out Hentgen and put in either a free agent or rookie. The Bullpen may need some work - but we have some young guys in there right now that are doing well, and more arms coming up that should be able to get the job done.
There are holes, but if you look at it those holes aren't really that big.
Well they've got Wells, Hudson, Cash, Phelps and Hinske for the lineup already - And i think Hinkse and Phelps will come around. Also I think Delgado will be back, so we just need a SS, and two more outfields (maybe Cat will be back too).
In the Rotation, its pretty much set for next year. Just take out Hentgen and put in either a free agent or rookie. The Bullpen may need some work - but we have some young guys in there right now that are doing well, and more arms coming up that should be able to get the job done.
There are holes, but if you look at it those holes aren't really that big.
I bow to no man in my distaste for Terry Adams, professionally and personally, but Tosca has to bear some of the burden here, too. With every outing, Adams demonstrates that he is not a 'proven closer', yet Tosca manages as if he is. It's fine to bring him out for the ninth, but if he loads the bases with less than two outs, get him out of there. 'Proven closers' like Wagner, Rivera, Gagne, Foulke, etc., have earned the right to close out the frame, but Adams has not. If Frasor, Nakamura, or any of the others got themselves into that same situation in the eighth, Tosca would rightfully yank them. He has to do the same with Adams in the ninth if it comes to it. Insteads he goes with Adams, sink or swim. Last night, he swam (barely). Today, and last week, he sunk like a stone.
To repeat: it's fine to give him first crack at a save situation. But you can't give any longer a leash just because he's your 'closer'. Because it's a tag of convenience, and nothing more.
To repeat: it's fine to give him first crack at a save situation. But you can't give any longer a leash just because he's your 'closer'. Because it's a tag of convenience, and nothing more.
The canard I often see tossed around on Prospectus is that "it's a manager's job to lead," so therefore players should theoretically have no problem being used in any role whatsoever, provided that managerial leadership is strong.
Real quick as I'm off to a meeting...
It's a manager's job to lead, not to dictate. I agree, that interpretation is a canard. Leadership isn't about ensuring unswerving obedience to every damn fool thing. Leadership is, more than anything else, about using people and resources where they are best suited. It's about planning.
I think your concerns are quite right, Mike.
Real quick as I'm off to a meeting...
It's a manager's job to lead, not to dictate. I agree, that interpretation is a canard. Leadership isn't about ensuring unswerving obedience to every damn fool thing. Leadership is, more than anything else, about using people and resources where they are best suited. It's about planning.
I think your concerns are quite right, Mike.
By the way, I love how the term "proven closer" is regaining its non-ironic use around here.
Is it too late to trade for Antonio Alfonseca?
Is it too late to trade for Antonio Alfonseca?
We would have to give up way too much for Alfonseca, Craig; he's on pace for 20 wins this year!
Wow, that was an aggressive response...I get that good players are going to leave (although putting it through my head may cause severe injury as well as an unsightly hole, so I'll pass) and I certainly don't think that Rios is going to take 4 years to develop - my point was that the whole idea of it all coming together in 2005 was a bit of a pipe dream. I love this team's kids and the future looks good, I'm just saying that I've been lied to :(
People who say that this is a good team are ignoring the Jays flaws. We gave away two runs today with poor base running and the inability to score a runner from 3rd with less than two outs.
Here's my report card;
Starters (B, B+) range. Other than Halladay, this is an average group. Hentgen is doing worse, Miller is doing better than expected. I would have projected them giving up 4 or so runs by the 7th on consistent basis.
Bullpen: (D) I thought this group would be better. Kerry looks terrible.
Fielding:(C+) Below average. When did we run out of OF's? Frasor has done well but I'd like to see Werth instead of Berg taking a turn out there. Hinske, SS is average at best. Excellent catchers(though Cash seems small back there), right side of the infield looks fine.
Bench: (C) I thought Berg was fine last year, Crash had a career year so this group of spare parts is a bit of a let down. Gomez has been very good so I should bump the grade up a bit. Lets hope Pond does well and that Menachino remains a battler throughout the year.
Hitting: (C) This is the real problem for the team. The Jays aren't great on defence, there pitching is average. The pitching is better than last year so what happened? The Jays don't score 7 runs a game. Wells is coming around, Delgado probably won't be part of the future so he can flounder. However, unless Hinske and Phelps are the real deal, I don't see a renaissance in Toronto baseball anytime soon.
Bright spots so far are the O-dawg and the consistency of Hallayday.
Here's my report card;
Starters (B, B+) range. Other than Halladay, this is an average group. Hentgen is doing worse, Miller is doing better than expected. I would have projected them giving up 4 or so runs by the 7th on consistent basis.
Bullpen: (D) I thought this group would be better. Kerry looks terrible.
Fielding:(C+) Below average. When did we run out of OF's? Frasor has done well but I'd like to see Werth instead of Berg taking a turn out there. Hinske, SS is average at best. Excellent catchers(though Cash seems small back there), right side of the infield looks fine.
Bench: (C) I thought Berg was fine last year, Crash had a career year so this group of spare parts is a bit of a let down. Gomez has been very good so I should bump the grade up a bit. Lets hope Pond does well and that Menachino remains a battler throughout the year.
Hitting: (C) This is the real problem for the team. The Jays aren't great on defence, there pitching is average. The pitching is better than last year so what happened? The Jays don't score 7 runs a game. Wells is coming around, Delgado probably won't be part of the future so he can flounder. However, unless Hinske and Phelps are the real deal, I don't see a renaissance in Toronto baseball anytime soon.
Bright spots so far are the O-dawg and the consistency of Hallayday.
You can't demonstate you are not a proven closer. Proven closer means you've had the job in the past and done well. So either you are or are not a proven closer and if/when you get a chance to do the job, then and only then can you prove you are one. Sort of like Kelvim Escobar going into 2003; like Billy Koch proved he was a closer and then (apparently) unproved it with the White Sox; like Aquilino Lopez proved he was a closer the last half of last season. The Twins didn't have a proven closer going into this season (Joe Nathan), but he's done pretty well.
It's all just baloney. Either you pitch well or you don't. Either you're a good relef pitcher, an average one, or a bad one.
It's all just baloney. Either you pitch well or you don't. Either you're a good relef pitcher, an average one, or a bad one.
Spartan: I'm inclined to agree about the position players - the wings? Not so much. I have to admit when I made the last post one thing I didn't take into account was the Delgado money. If they can't fill the pen with the money they're gonna save there's something wrong.
I think lost in all this is another great start by Miller. A bloop double and a nice piece of hitting by Offerman (how many times can you say THAT!) were his only real blemishes in 6 innings-and those silly 4 walks. He's really looked better than any of us could have expected. Any talk of moving him to the bullpen should stop immediately. A good starters always more valuable than a good reliever (especially MIDDLE, the way it's been hinted above). I'll take 200 innings for a starter over 70 or 80 for a reliever any day.
The starting pitching as a whole has eaten up a ton of innings this year, making the bullpen collapses stick out even more. I'm not sure I can think of any start outside of a few of Hentgen's that've gone less than 5 innings (perhaps 1 for Lilly). That's tremendous work by the starters, most of the time going 6 and 7 innings. If that holds up all year, good things will follow, even though they haven't yet.
The starting pitching as a whole has eaten up a ton of innings this year, making the bullpen collapses stick out even more. I'm not sure I can think of any start outside of a few of Hentgen's that've gone less than 5 innings (perhaps 1 for Lilly). That's tremendous work by the starters, most of the time going 6 and 7 innings. If that holds up all year, good things will follow, even though they haven't yet.
Oh yeah, and it's 'first' and 'second', not 'firstly' and 'secondly' (imply that I'M thickheaded? I think not!) ;)
Why not throw a pot of money at someone like Bill Caudill or Randy Myers like previous Jays regimes did, right? Both of those guys were regarded among the elite closers of thegame when they first suited up with the Jays.
J.P. spent some money on this year's pen - bringing in veterans Ligtenberg, Speier and Adams. Speier got hurt and everyone but Frasor and Nakamura has been a disappointment. It happens.
What they should do is find a guy who has ace reliever stuff and give him a season in the job come sink or swim in 2005. The Twins did exactly that with Nathan. Speier might have been that guy. Peterson might be the guy next year.
What they need to do with the Delgado money (assuming they don't re-sign him) is find some serious lumber. We score 8 runs this game and nobody's talking about Adams and the pen.
J.P. spent some money on this year's pen - bringing in veterans Ligtenberg, Speier and Adams. Speier got hurt and everyone but Frasor and Nakamura has been a disappointment. It happens.
What they should do is find a guy who has ace reliever stuff and give him a season in the job come sink or swim in 2005. The Twins did exactly that with Nathan. Speier might have been that guy. Peterson might be the guy next year.
What they need to do with the Delgado money (assuming they don't re-sign him) is find some serious lumber. We score 8 runs this game and nobody's talking about Adams and the pen.
Fawaz,
It won't necessarily come together in 2005. By 2005 the Jays should have enough talent to field a continuous contender into the future until the farm system dries up--which if you believe in the Jays strategy won't occur anytime soon. You weren't lied to, you just weren't paying attention.
It won't necessarily come together in 2005. By 2005 the Jays should have enough talent to field a continuous contender into the future until the farm system dries up--which if you believe in the Jays strategy won't occur anytime soon. You weren't lied to, you just weren't paying attention.
Ah Mondesi, his contract has been cancelled by the Pirates. I'm sure he feels someone else is to blame for his problems, it always is. So, he'll be a free agent on Friday once he clears waivers. Do the Jays want him? ;)
Unfortunately, I need to halt my whining - real life interjects...
You can't demonstate you are not a proven closer.
Very fair point. But the reason I put the quotes around 'proven closer' was in part because I believe it to be such a misleading label for all but a few big league relievers. You can scream from the mountaintops that Adams is your closer, just as you can call an apple that you're eating an orange. But that wouldn't absolve you of the need to get some Vitamin C in your diet, and it doesn't absolve Tosca of the responsibility to manage. Just like any Jay reliever who gets in a jam of his own making, Tosca has to be prepared to make a change, regardless of whether Joe Torre would leave his closer in in that situation. You simply can't say, "it's the ninth inning, let's hope Terry's got it today."
Very fair point. But the reason I put the quotes around 'proven closer' was in part because I believe it to be such a misleading label for all but a few big league relievers. You can scream from the mountaintops that Adams is your closer, just as you can call an apple that you're eating an orange. But that wouldn't absolve you of the need to get some Vitamin C in your diet, and it doesn't absolve Tosca of the responsibility to manage. Just like any Jay reliever who gets in a jam of his own making, Tosca has to be prepared to make a change, regardless of whether Joe Torre would leave his closer in in that situation. You simply can't say, "it's the ninth inning, let's hope Terry's got it today."
I hope Tosca and JP are happy now..our so called closer/journeyman blew a 3 run lead in the 9th on national TV (ESPN) to boot. While we may not need a big name closer, we need someone who can pitch effectively in the 9th with some heat and that person could be Jason Frasor.
I don't like the idea of having a groundballing closer on turf. That's just me. Adams is a better pitcher than Tam, but he's suffering from BIP-itis just like Tam did last year.
"Proven Closer"- hmm...Closers come in all shapes and sizes from Jeff Montgomery to Eddie Guardado to Joe Nathan to Eric Gagne. Many just emerge from the bullpen, after they are handed the role. Many do not have blazing fastballs.
The only constructive suggestion I can offer is that the Jays might want to consider moving Adam Peterson from double A to triple A shortly to see how he does there. If he blows them away, you might consider a late season role for him in Toronto.
As for trying Frasor in the role, this would not be unreasonable. Adams has been given a fair shot, and has not flourished in the role.
The only constructive suggestion I can offer is that the Jays might want to consider moving Adam Peterson from double A to triple A shortly to see how he does there. If he blows them away, you might consider a late season role for him in Toronto.
As for trying Frasor in the role, this would not be unreasonable. Adams has been given a fair shot, and has not flourished in the role.
he's suffering from BIP-itis
That may be true for Adams in general this year, but not as much today-Blanco's ball was the only one that was not hit all that hard and was a hit. The other three were shots. But yes, I've noticed that too-especially vs. the Royals last week.
I don't like the idea of having a groundballing closer on turf.
This is the bigger problem. Even Halladay can have 3 or 4 hits strung together on choppers and seeing-eye singles. Even more of a need for a closer with more K's.
That may be true for Adams in general this year, but not as much today-Blanco's ball was the only one that was not hit all that hard and was a hit. The other three were shots. But yes, I've noticed that too-especially vs. the Royals last week.
I don't like the idea of having a groundballing closer on turf.
This is the bigger problem. Even Halladay can have 3 or 4 hits strung together on choppers and seeing-eye singles. Even more of a need for a closer with more K's.
I honestly thought Ligtenberg was going to come in and start the 9th. One of the radio guys mentioned he was warming in the pen in the 8th, ready to come in to face Hunter if necessary. Given that Adams had some trouble last night, and that it's a day game after a night game, giving Ligtenberg at least one batter of work seems at least a plausible idea.
I'm not second-guessing Tosca here. I'm just wondering about having a guy pitch on about 16 hours of rest. Is this commonly done? You regularly hear about position players getting day games off after night games so I would think this applies doubly to pitchers.
I'm not second-guessing Tosca here. I'm just wondering about having a guy pitch on about 16 hours of rest. Is this commonly done? You regularly hear about position players getting day games off after night games so I would think this applies doubly to pitchers.
If only we had grabbed Gagne instead of that Austraillian guy. Or at least held on to Quantrill.
I know hindsight is 20/20 and all, but damn.
I know hindsight is 20/20 and all, but damn.
Wow.
I had to leave after the 8th inning was over and the Jays were sporting a 5-2 lead. I came on here to relish in the victory with you folks, and ... we lost? It just doesn't seem possible. How many heartbreaking losses can one team suffer in 2 months? Unbelievable.
I don't really want to talk about the bullpen since I did not see the game, but I want to talk about the lack of HRs! I realize it's a relatively minor issue, but other than the Delgado shot the other night, how many homeruns have been hit in the past 10 games or so? I want some dingers!
I had to leave after the 8th inning was over and the Jays were sporting a 5-2 lead. I came on here to relish in the victory with you folks, and ... we lost? It just doesn't seem possible. How many heartbreaking losses can one team suffer in 2 months? Unbelievable.
I don't really want to talk about the bullpen since I did not see the game, but I want to talk about the lack of HRs! I realize it's a relatively minor issue, but other than the Delgado shot the other night, how many homeruns have been hit in the past 10 games or so? I want some dingers!
Niles,
Was Gagne available? Who knows? We've gone through this many times here at the Box. Also, don't forget that at the time we traded for Prokopec, Gagne was a struggling starter, not a dominant closer. By the way, let's assume we could have gotten Gagne and he had turned into a dominant closer in Toronto. Would we be able to pay him the money he's earning this year? I doubt it. While we're at it, Q wasn't cheap either.
Was Gagne available? Who knows? We've gone through this many times here at the Box. Also, don't forget that at the time we traded for Prokopec, Gagne was a struggling starter, not a dominant closer. By the way, let's assume we could have gotten Gagne and he had turned into a dominant closer in Toronto. Would we be able to pay him the money he's earning this year? I doubt it. While we're at it, Q wasn't cheap either.
I don't think that there are any quick fixes out there to cure this team. The heart of the order just has to start hitting again - especially for power and in the clutch. It is not the periphery players, the replaceable players, that aren't performing it is the core of this team - Wells, Delgado, Phelps and Hinske. Last year the offense covered for a below average defense (which is probably more important because of the Skydome turf), poor baseball fundamentals (eg. baserunning, situational hitting), a spotty bullpen and some bad starts but this year those weaknesses are looming large because the heart of the order is not hitting. The weaknesses are too numerous to fix with in season trades.
I would also like to state that is closing is hard, that is why so many good pitchers fail at it. It requires a different mentality than pitching in any other inning. The reverse also seems true, great closers seem to have their worst innings in non-save situtations. I believe this why bullpens by committee don't work, there just aren't enough pitchers who can pitch effectively over reasonable stretches in the ninth. Adams has been a very effective reliever the last couple of years but he has been terrible closer. He is still an effective reliever but just not in the ninth. You can say the same thing about Ligtenberg and Speier (he may be the best pitcher of the group but he still has a poor save percentage). The fact they have all failed should be no surprise but that doesn't mean that they are no longer effective pitchers. The best solution is probably to keep throwing new pitchers into the role until someone steps up.
Lastly, since I haven't posted in a couple of months, I want to say again that baseball is game played by humans and humans are affected by emotions and this context small ball may still be a worthy startegy. The object of the game isn't to score as many runs as possible - it's to score more runs than your opponent, a win by one-run is just as valuable as a win by ten runs. If we are not getting three-run homers maybe it is time to emphasize scoring runs one at a time and taking pride in doing the little things like moving runners over, taking extra-bases, etc. so that the team can have more good innings as opposed to looking for big innings. Maybe some positive results and good execution will get rid of that "here we go again" feeling that is spiralling through the team. Lets take advantage of the fact that our 8 and 9 hitters are hitting just as well as our 3 and 4 hitters and distribute the offensive burden. The play of the whole may team in all areas may just improve.
I would also like to state that is closing is hard, that is why so many good pitchers fail at it. It requires a different mentality than pitching in any other inning. The reverse also seems true, great closers seem to have their worst innings in non-save situtations. I believe this why bullpens by committee don't work, there just aren't enough pitchers who can pitch effectively over reasonable stretches in the ninth. Adams has been a very effective reliever the last couple of years but he has been terrible closer. He is still an effective reliever but just not in the ninth. You can say the same thing about Ligtenberg and Speier (he may be the best pitcher of the group but he still has a poor save percentage). The fact they have all failed should be no surprise but that doesn't mean that they are no longer effective pitchers. The best solution is probably to keep throwing new pitchers into the role until someone steps up.
Lastly, since I haven't posted in a couple of months, I want to say again that baseball is game played by humans and humans are affected by emotions and this context small ball may still be a worthy startegy. The object of the game isn't to score as many runs as possible - it's to score more runs than your opponent, a win by one-run is just as valuable as a win by ten runs. If we are not getting three-run homers maybe it is time to emphasize scoring runs one at a time and taking pride in doing the little things like moving runners over, taking extra-bases, etc. so that the team can have more good innings as opposed to looking for big innings. Maybe some positive results and good execution will get rid of that "here we go again" feeling that is spiralling through the team. Lets take advantage of the fact that our 8 and 9 hitters are hitting just as well as our 3 and 4 hitters and distribute the offensive burden. The play of the whole may team in all areas may just improve.
Today felt so bad... I cant even put it into words. The way it happened just fills you with so much disapointment, anger, frustration... basicaly all the bad emotions.
Snake and I heading down to the ballpark together, HAMMER in hand, roof open, sun shining down. Get to our seats, the dome is packed with loud piecing school groups, sounds good, looks good. Jays take a comeback lead we sneak into some pretty sweet seats on the 200's next to Windows. Then Adams walks out of the bullpen and you just KNOW whats going to happen but you're powerless to stop it. Its the worst sports feeling in the world. Even the power of THE HAMMER is useless against bad Jay pitching.
One by one Adam's put runners on base as Snake and I sit and curse, saying it'll be painful, but it will be over soon... it cant be THAT bad. Some bumpkin Mini fans (probably the only four in the whole stadium) of course take up residence right behind us making the inveitable Adam's expolosion that much more hideous. I take out the HAMMER and wave it wildly in futility, I try starting a Lets-go-pond chant, just ANYTHING! Then the pitch goes down the pipe and back up the field over the fence. The Bumpkins are going nuts laughing and hollering, I'm trying to hold Snake down before he gets arrested for assult, the stadium full of children grow disillusioned and rejected.
Snake and I honestly just sat in our seats for 20 minutes after the game just breaking the silence with occaisonal anti-Adams/tosca remark.
That was not a fun game, and if you'll excuse me, Im going to go beat the Twinkies 27-0 in MVP Baseball 2004.
Snake and I heading down to the ballpark together, HAMMER in hand, roof open, sun shining down. Get to our seats, the dome is packed with loud piecing school groups, sounds good, looks good. Jays take a comeback lead we sneak into some pretty sweet seats on the 200's next to Windows. Then Adams walks out of the bullpen and you just KNOW whats going to happen but you're powerless to stop it. Its the worst sports feeling in the world. Even the power of THE HAMMER is useless against bad Jay pitching.
One by one Adam's put runners on base as Snake and I sit and curse, saying it'll be painful, but it will be over soon... it cant be THAT bad. Some bumpkin Mini fans (probably the only four in the whole stadium) of course take up residence right behind us making the inveitable Adam's expolosion that much more hideous. I take out the HAMMER and wave it wildly in futility, I try starting a Lets-go-pond chant, just ANYTHING! Then the pitch goes down the pipe and back up the field over the fence. The Bumpkins are going nuts laughing and hollering, I'm trying to hold Snake down before he gets arrested for assult, the stadium full of children grow disillusioned and rejected.
Snake and I honestly just sat in our seats for 20 minutes after the game just breaking the silence with occaisonal anti-Adams/tosca remark.
That was not a fun game, and if you'll excuse me, Im going to go beat the Twinkies 27-0 in MVP Baseball 2004.
Jobu-that's just a classic post. Hilarious. Thanks for making me laugh about something Jay-related.
Did I mention I wrote a stats exam that morning and the game was supposed to be my "Reward".
Oh, sweet irony.
5 - 0 MVP Blue Jays after 2.
Oh, sweet irony.
5 - 0 MVP Blue Jays after 2.
Do you all realize that we haven't a reliable closer we could count on since Duane Ward? ...and that was 11 years ago!! Someone needs to step forward and claim this job. We've had to deal with too many blown saves for too long. Losing games when you have a lead in the 9th are season killers.
This wouldn't work for so many reasons, but I'm getting desperate...Seeing that a) Adams can't close b) Hentgen's not getting too deep into games, how about giving Adams a few spot starts? Hentgen could work out of the 'pen those days and we get a look at how either one responds. Hey, maybe Hentgen's the next closer!
Who are the stud reliable closers in MLB right now? I mean, the guys that are consistently dominant, year in, year out? The list is very short:
Mariano Rivera
Billy Wagner
Eric Gagne
Troy Percival
Trevor Hoffman
John Smoltz
Keith Foulke
If he were healthy, you could probably add Robb Nen to that list.
Mariano Rivera
Billy Wagner
Eric Gagne
Troy Percival
Trevor Hoffman
John Smoltz
Keith Foulke
If he were healthy, you could probably add Robb Nen to that list.
Excellent, now I can tell myself im not crazy. I too was thinking the other day how cool it would be if Hentgen became an Uber Starter to Closer 9th inning guy like Smoltz. I didn't think about giving Adams a start though... you're on your own there psycho.
22 - 0 MVP blue jays after 7. Nolan Ryan's flirting with a P------ G--- .
22 - 0 MVP blue jays after 7. Nolan Ryan's flirting with a P------ G--- .
I thought I might be on my own there - I just noticed that he had started in 2001 and '02 and had some success, with an ERA hovering at 4.50; respectable for a starter, less so for a reliever.
Again, that's a stretch on my part based on superficial evidence.
On the long forgotten subject of hustling Blue Jays: Carlos doesn't hustle. I was watching a game a week or 2 ago, and they had a close up of him running to first base on what looked like a dp, and they slowed the camera down and he actually stopped running, slowed waaaaay down about 4 steps from the bag even though he had a chance to beat it out. And even though he slowed down, he still BARELY beat it out. He's had confrontations with managers in the past about running things out. The guy is a tremendous hitter, but he never hustles.
MVP Blue Jays beat the twins 33-0 and Nolan Ryan throws a perfect game! Now thats what I'd like to see at the dome.
Now this idea is getting to me, just sitting back and dreaming of Hentgen comming out of the bullpen in the 9th, being the Jays dominating closer for years to come. The coolness factor is off the charts. And yes, I realize my dreams are lame.
Now this idea is getting to me, just sitting back and dreaming of Hentgen comming out of the bullpen in the 9th, being the Jays dominating closer for years to come. The coolness factor is off the charts. And yes, I realize my dreams are lame.
You know what, that would infuriate me with any other guy except Carlos. He's got balky knees and poor speed. The example that you cited suggests that he completely misjudged that play, but other than that I can live with him not risking injury when he doesn't think he's going to make it.
Tell me about it. I'd love to see Hentgen baffle hitters with stuff 10 mph slower than they've seen all game with pinpoint control and a starter's repertoire...all with that crazycool moustache...sigh...
Jeff,
I disagree with your post on so many levels.
First, what we saw today (from the Jays) is what a small ball offence produces on a good day. There were plenty of guys moved on groundballs. There was even a stolen base. That's how many runs a small ball offence scores - 3-5 runs on most occasions. Just ask the KC Royals about moving runners along. If your pitching isn't good enough to win with 5 runs, then the pitching is the problem.
No one has shown any evidence that teams that play small ball win close games more often than big-inning offences. The way to score a lot of runs is to put a lot of guys on base and then, hopefully, hit homeruns. That's it. Look at any great offensive team in the history of the game. You'll see that they put many more runners on base than the league average. Most hit for a lot of power; a select few stole bases at a high success rate. But they all got tons of men on base.
The weaknesses of this year's team are different from last year's. The defence is much much better. Hudson is playing gold glove defence; Hinske has improved from last year. Cash, Myers and Zaun have turned the worst basestealing defence (last year) into one of the best. There are still problems with corner outfielders not named Johnsons and Cat.
The starting pitching is far better than last year. Before Escobar was moved into the rotation, Halladay was the only guy putting up Quality Starts. This year, everyone but Hentgen has been good.
The main problem this year is offence: 1)not much power 2) not as many baserunners as last year and 3) a few too many DP.
The only other major problem is bullpen blowup at inopportune times. You'll find, if you check the stats, that the pen as a whole has been pretty good - much much better than last year's circa April/May.
As far as closer mentality goes - I don't think it's much of a factor. Every big league pitcher is in the pressure cooker at all times. I don't believe there is more pressure holding a 3-run lead in the 9th than pitching in the 7th or 8th in a tie game (something Adams has done many times).
Stuff and command are what count. Show me a relief pitcher with great stuff and great command of it and I'll show you a great relief pitcher. The guys they have now have good stuff, but only Frasor can be said to have great stuff - and the Jays rightly are reluctant to try someone with as little experience as him as the ace reliever.
I disagree with your post on so many levels.
First, what we saw today (from the Jays) is what a small ball offence produces on a good day. There were plenty of guys moved on groundballs. There was even a stolen base. That's how many runs a small ball offence scores - 3-5 runs on most occasions. Just ask the KC Royals about moving runners along. If your pitching isn't good enough to win with 5 runs, then the pitching is the problem.
No one has shown any evidence that teams that play small ball win close games more often than big-inning offences. The way to score a lot of runs is to put a lot of guys on base and then, hopefully, hit homeruns. That's it. Look at any great offensive team in the history of the game. You'll see that they put many more runners on base than the league average. Most hit for a lot of power; a select few stole bases at a high success rate. But they all got tons of men on base.
The weaknesses of this year's team are different from last year's. The defence is much much better. Hudson is playing gold glove defence; Hinske has improved from last year. Cash, Myers and Zaun have turned the worst basestealing defence (last year) into one of the best. There are still problems with corner outfielders not named Johnsons and Cat.
The starting pitching is far better than last year. Before Escobar was moved into the rotation, Halladay was the only guy putting up Quality Starts. This year, everyone but Hentgen has been good.
The main problem this year is offence: 1)not much power 2) not as many baserunners as last year and 3) a few too many DP.
The only other major problem is bullpen blowup at inopportune times. You'll find, if you check the stats, that the pen as a whole has been pretty good - much much better than last year's circa April/May.
As far as closer mentality goes - I don't think it's much of a factor. Every big league pitcher is in the pressure cooker at all times. I don't believe there is more pressure holding a 3-run lead in the 9th than pitching in the 7th or 8th in a tie game (something Adams has done many times).
Stuff and command are what count. Show me a relief pitcher with great stuff and great command of it and I'll show you a great relief pitcher. The guys they have now have good stuff, but only Frasor can be said to have great stuff - and the Jays rightly are reluctant to try someone with as little experience as him as the ace reliever.
Just think of Hentgen as closer from a marketing standpoint alone, people love big closers and people love gimmicks, and people love big closers with gimicky beards!
I know alot of casual female fans who are only interested in this year because Hentgen is back. Think how reved up the city would be if Hentgen was always there as our door-slammin closer. It would sell more tickets than any Baseball North campagin. Plus with the right entrance music, he'll even be an ESPN favourite.
Of course, he'd have to agree to close, and find a fifth pitcher, and it probably will never happen in the real world. But as I said earlier, the coolness factor is off the charts.
I know alot of casual female fans who are only interested in this year because Hentgen is back. Think how reved up the city would be if Hentgen was always there as our door-slammin closer. It would sell more tickets than any Baseball North campagin. Plus with the right entrance music, he'll even be an ESPN favourite.
Of course, he'd have to agree to close, and find a fifth pitcher, and it probably will never happen in the real world. But as I said earlier, the coolness factor is off the charts.
One more reason why Vernon Wells is gonna be an all-time great:
Even after his massive April slump, his on-base percentage is still higher than it was last year, and he's on pace to draw twice as many walks as he drew last year. Once the power comes back, and it will, 25 year old hitters don't just lose all their power, he will be as good as Edmonds, as good as Beltran, with the possibility to improve even more. This guy is special.
Even after his massive April slump, his on-base percentage is still higher than it was last year, and he's on pace to draw twice as many walks as he drew last year. Once the power comes back, and it will, 25 year old hitters don't just lose all their power, he will be as good as Edmonds, as good as Beltran, with the possibility to improve even more. This guy is special.
I'm inclined to go for a little of both re: Jeff and Dudek. Absolutely, the best offences have hit for power with lots of baserunners; they had the personnel to do it. A scouting report I read this spring (I can't remember which, I think it was SI) questioned the Jays power, now it seems sadly prophetic. Last season tells me that this line-up can still play for the big innings, and I am totally against the whole small ball bit early in games given the state of the Jays' staff. My attitude changes late in close games and when, say, Doc is on the mound. On a personal note - I find the condescension shown by proponents of either approach to the other to be a little short-sighted. Both have their place; playing the numbers for big innings works because the season is long enough for averages to bear out, in situations when a tack-on or go ahead run are needed, small ball saves lives.
A not so happy coinkidink - a team that I find uses the happy medium between big and small ball is the Twins, who are also +5 on the Pythagorean standings, if anybody cares.
I don't understand why if the "closer" puts three guys on base and clearly doesn't have his command why you leave him out there until he fails. You still have other options in the pen. Tosca used multiple pitchers to get through the earlier innings. If any of them had gotten in trouble by allowing multiple runners they would have been hooked.
It should also be noted though that it was a few outings like this that lost Keith Foulke his closer role in the 2002 season and made the White Sox trade him for Billy Koch. Adams is still 3 for 5 in saves. Terry Adams isn't Keith Foulke but he isn't a guy who will give up four runs in an appearance very often.
It should also be noted though that it was a few outings like this that lost Keith Foulke his closer role in the 2002 season and made the White Sox trade him for Billy Koch. Adams is still 3 for 5 in saves. Terry Adams isn't Keith Foulke but he isn't a guy who will give up four runs in an appearance very often.
But Foulke had still saved 34 and 42 with an ERA below 3.00 in the prior two seasons so, as you noted, Terry Adams is NOT Keith Foulke and I'm not sure the comparison holds.
Also not seeing the game I don't know if Gomez should have made an out on that groundball or whether his lack of range cost the Jays an out or even an doubleplay. Plays like that can make pitchers look worse than they are, particularly if they're used to having Jimmy Rollins playing short behind them.
R Billie,
That's something I don't understand either. Apparently, it is taboo to lift your closer before he has given up the lead. It's the kind of stuff that people who worry about the ego and feelings of pitchers tell you you have to do.
I think it is stupid, but I'm not in that dugout. No matter how bad your closer is going and no matter how short a time he's been your closer, you're not ALLOWED to pull him until he's given up the lead. That's part of the appeal of the closer-by-committee - since no one pitcher is the closer, they can't complain about being pulled when the team still has the lead. Of course then, everyone complains about lack of defined roles.
That's something I don't understand either. Apparently, it is taboo to lift your closer before he has given up the lead. It's the kind of stuff that people who worry about the ego and feelings of pitchers tell you you have to do.
I think it is stupid, but I'm not in that dugout. No matter how bad your closer is going and no matter how short a time he's been your closer, you're not ALLOWED to pull him until he's given up the lead. That's part of the appeal of the closer-by-committee - since no one pitcher is the closer, they can't complain about being pulled when the team still has the lead. Of course then, everyone complains about lack of defined roles.
I didn't see the game either; other have said Gomez had to go quite a way just to get to the ball, so no DP and an out woulda been spectacular - the other two hits were shots.
It was not meant to be a direct comparison but an analogy. Even one of the best closers before and after that period of two months had a bad spell and suddenly became "not a closer". Adams is not a guy who will frequently give up four runs in the long run. But he should be held responsible for pitching like horse puckey when given a golden opportunity in a contract year.
I guess it also depends if your 'closer' is the Hammer of God or Terry Adams...
Guys common, I already bring the HAMMER to more games than I should I dont think it can close games too.... oh, you ment something else.
In the mean time im going to start a grassroots campaign and presidential looking banners saying "Hentgen for Closer - Together we can get out the 9th".
In the mean time im going to start a grassroots campaign and presidential looking banners saying "Hentgen for Closer - Together we can get out the 9th".
Blanco's ball-absolutely ZERO chance of a DP (Hudson went for the ball too-it was just dead between them) and a very good SS probably makes the play, but it would have taken a really quick transfer and a rocket arm-maybe a half dozen SS's thrown him out. I don't have much to add that hasn't been said about closers-so I'll stick to saying what I see.
But Gomez DID get to the ball and make a play on it according to what I heard on the radio, the throw was just offline or something. And I know from watching Gomez play regularly his range is awful. That's why I think a better shortstop would have turned that into a doubleplay or at least an out. I'm just guessing because I didn't see the play, that's why I'm asking.
AND THEN WE'LL TAKE THE 10TH, AND THE 11TH. AND WE'LL PITCH OUT OF JAMS IN THE 7TH AND 8TH. ALL ON OUR WAY TO THE CY YOUNG...HEEEYAAAA...Wait, his campaign didn't work...
As I said a few days ago the Jays are going nowhere as long as the 3-4-5-6 hitters (OK they've switched them around a bit the last few games) aren't hitting the ball over the fence. That was another series without a HR by anyone.
We can argue at length about the Jays woeful late-inning pitching performances, but the biggest problem with the Jays starts and ends with extra-base hits. The bottom line is that the Jays are not generating enough extra-base hits. It's not just home runs; it's doubles, triples and home runs.
Why? It's simple: the largest sources of extra-base hits are all either struggling or hurt or both: Delgado, Hinske, Phelps, Myers. The successful hitters are the singles hitters: Catalanotto, Hudson, Zaun.
In 2003, the Jays hit .279/.349/.455. So far in 2004, it's .267/.336/.406. Notice that while OBP-AVG is almost identical (no change in patience), ISO (SLG-AVG) has taken a fourty-point tumble.
Who's to blame? The pure power hitters or the secondary power (doubles) hitters? (Note that Wells is both, whereas Delgado is a power hitter and Hinske a doubles hitter.)
Hmmm...
Year 2B% 3B% HR%
20035.6%0.52%3.0%
20045.5%0.57%1.9%
Well it's pretty clear, isn't it? The problem is that the Jays have collectively gone into a serious HR drought.
The Jays hit 15 HR in April, and so far have hit 15 HR in May. Pro-rata, that's about 7 more HR in May (say 8) for a two-month total of 38.
The lowest two-month HR total in 2003? July/August, with 51, and that's no fair because of the ALL-STAR GAME, robbing the Jays of probably two games on the schedule! (53 in Aug/Sep, if you want to avoid this bias.)
So far, the Jays have thrown away at least 15 runs (53 - 38), and probably closer to about 25, just by hitting home runs at a slower pace than last year. How has that affected things?
Using a Pythagorean projection with exponent 1.83, the 2004 should be playing .481 ball. Add 25 runs and that should be .529! The difference is .048 points, and over 40 games, that 2 wins. Add that and we're 19-21 instead of 17-23.
Let's add those 15 HR to even just 10 games. Assume that in two of those games, they just make a large lead larger; assume that in two of those games, they complete a comeback or stave off a late-inning rally. Those are our two extra wins. What about the remaining six?
In a couple of games, they probably don't matter. They turn a 10-1 deficit into a 10-4 deficit and we still lose.
That leaves four games in which those missing HR might change the course of the game, by allowing Tosca to stay with his starter longer, or keep Adams out of the pressure of protecting a ninth-inning lead. (My assumption is that Adams is uncomfortable as a closer, for which there appears to be ample evidence.) We might win two of those four games. That's two more wins /beyond/ the two we picked up just for scoring more runs!
In other words, we would likely be something closer to 21-19 than 17-23. The bullpen hasn't got any better talent wise -- they've just pitched under less pressure. That can only help. We haven't got any more luck, because built in to this whole discussion is the fact that in spite of projecting to play .481, the Jays have 17 wins instead of 19.5 (so either 19 or 20).
If...
* we played to the projection, and
* we got those extra HR, and
* our pen was no better than it is now...
...then we could be 21-19!
So before we heap all the blame on the bullpen, let's keep in mind that the 2004 Jays have allowed /fewer runs/ (4.875) per game than the 2003 Jays did (5.09)!
Why? It's simple: the largest sources of extra-base hits are all either struggling or hurt or both: Delgado, Hinske, Phelps, Myers. The successful hitters are the singles hitters: Catalanotto, Hudson, Zaun.
In 2003, the Jays hit .279/.349/.455. So far in 2004, it's .267/.336/.406. Notice that while OBP-AVG is almost identical (no change in patience), ISO (SLG-AVG) has taken a fourty-point tumble.
Who's to blame? The pure power hitters or the secondary power (doubles) hitters? (Note that Wells is both, whereas Delgado is a power hitter and Hinske a doubles hitter.)
Hmmm...
Year 2B% 3B% HR%
20035.6%0.52%3.0%
20045.5%0.57%1.9%
Well it's pretty clear, isn't it? The problem is that the Jays have collectively gone into a serious HR drought.
The Jays hit 15 HR in April, and so far have hit 15 HR in May. Pro-rata, that's about 7 more HR in May (say 8) for a two-month total of 38.
The lowest two-month HR total in 2003? July/August, with 51, and that's no fair because of the ALL-STAR GAME, robbing the Jays of probably two games on the schedule! (53 in Aug/Sep, if you want to avoid this bias.)
So far, the Jays have thrown away at least 15 runs (53 - 38), and probably closer to about 25, just by hitting home runs at a slower pace than last year. How has that affected things?
Using a Pythagorean projection with exponent 1.83, the 2004 should be playing .481 ball. Add 25 runs and that should be .529! The difference is .048 points, and over 40 games, that 2 wins. Add that and we're 19-21 instead of 17-23.
Let's add those 15 HR to even just 10 games. Assume that in two of those games, they just make a large lead larger; assume that in two of those games, they complete a comeback or stave off a late-inning rally. Those are our two extra wins. What about the remaining six?
In a couple of games, they probably don't matter. They turn a 10-1 deficit into a 10-4 deficit and we still lose.
That leaves four games in which those missing HR might change the course of the game, by allowing Tosca to stay with his starter longer, or keep Adams out of the pressure of protecting a ninth-inning lead. (My assumption is that Adams is uncomfortable as a closer, for which there appears to be ample evidence.) We might win two of those four games. That's two more wins /beyond/ the two we picked up just for scoring more runs!
In other words, we would likely be something closer to 21-19 than 17-23. The bullpen hasn't got any better talent wise -- they've just pitched under less pressure. That can only help. We haven't got any more luck, because built in to this whole discussion is the fact that in spite of projecting to play .481, the Jays have 17 wins instead of 19.5 (so either 19 or 20).
If...
* we played to the projection, and
* we got those extra HR, and
* our pen was no better than it is now...
...then we could be 21-19!
So before we heap all the blame on the bullpen, let's keep in mind that the 2004 Jays have allowed /fewer runs/ (4.875) per game than the 2003 Jays did (5.09)!
I guess they were all on the juice last year (so THAT's why Wells and Hinske lost all that weight - it was STEROID flab...)
JBR
There's no question that the Jays offense is culpable for not getting the extra-base hits and keeping the pen out of tough spots, you can't (and to be fair, I don't think you did) say that the pen's been OK. Sure, they've given up fewer runs, but last year's pen and this year's share the common bond of pitching far worse than the numbers, particularly ERA, indicate. You alluded to it - they've done just fine in low pressure situations, but when the game's on the line it's just more Tam and Politte.
There's no question that the Jays offense is culpable for not getting the extra-base hits and keeping the pen out of tough spots, you can't (and to be fair, I don't think you did) say that the pen's been OK. Sure, they've given up fewer runs, but last year's pen and this year's share the common bond of pitching far worse than the numbers, particularly ERA, indicate. You alluded to it - they've done just fine in low pressure situations, but when the game's on the line it's just more Tam and Politte.
To finish the thought - that's life with an offense built to for big-innings; it's feast mostly but there will be an occasional famine. There will be cold spells and everything should be righted soon. In the mean time, the pen has to be able to respond to make sure the famines don't kill off the entire season.
Agreed. The pitching is not much better, and that means it's not that good; but the /big/ problem is not hitting HR. I'm saying we can't heap the blame on the 'pen: it's doing about the same as it did last year, so it's not the reason we're not 21-19. (Or 22-19/21-20.)
We didn't have a famine anywhere /near/ this bad in 2003. Or in 2002. Or in 2001.
I'm not sure I've ever seen a beaneballing team go through something this extreme
12 players have as many or more jacks than Delgado and Hudson (Jays' 1 and 2) combined...staggering.
There's no defending Adams, he's plain awful. I've widtheld commenting to make sure I wasn't being reactionary. Four hours after the blown save, he still reeks.
No: today is not karma for his blame-shifting on Hinske. It's reversed. The blame-shifting is a symptom of his amateur mind. A confident guy with a microphone in front of him should feel no temptation to be defensive, that emotion shouldn't even exist in him. Your closer has to be the most confident of all. He's just using facial hair to hide the ugliness of his soul.
Justin Miller as closer: I was dismissive when I first read this suggestion. But now I see it makes so much sense. Call up Josh Towers, have him and Hentgen scrap for starts. Hold a press conference, announce to the world Justin Miller is your closer. He pitches with his tattoos until another umpire tells him to cover them up. Hell: Miller could be your 8th and 9th inning guy - he's always so strong the first 3 innings of the game.
Frasor is an option, I just worry that the book on him is not out yet. As one Bauxite posted, "his fastball is just so straight". Perhaps he doesn't need all the attention of advance scouts that closers get.
Finally (but not "secondly", or "lastly" - good god "what nextly?"): I want to construct blue wings for my arms when I go to games, and make a black, reversed-cone beak/megaphone. I can do great bird calls. Any suggestions for constructing wings?
No: today is not karma for his blame-shifting on Hinske. It's reversed. The blame-shifting is a symptom of his amateur mind. A confident guy with a microphone in front of him should feel no temptation to be defensive, that emotion shouldn't even exist in him. Your closer has to be the most confident of all. He's just using facial hair to hide the ugliness of his soul.
Justin Miller as closer: I was dismissive when I first read this suggestion. But now I see it makes so much sense. Call up Josh Towers, have him and Hentgen scrap for starts. Hold a press conference, announce to the world Justin Miller is your closer. He pitches with his tattoos until another umpire tells him to cover them up. Hell: Miller could be your 8th and 9th inning guy - he's always so strong the first 3 innings of the game.
Frasor is an option, I just worry that the book on him is not out yet. As one Bauxite posted, "his fastball is just so straight". Perhaps he doesn't need all the attention of advance scouts that closers get.
Finally (but not "secondly", or "lastly" - good god "what nextly?"): I want to construct blue wings for my arms when I go to games, and make a black, reversed-cone beak/megaphone. I can do great bird calls. Any suggestions for constructing wings?
Why put Miller closer when he's starting so well? If anything's going to be shifted from starting I say do as the bible says and "Place your faith in Hentgen and thou shall be saved". I think it's somewhere at the back....
Then Towers gets scrap starts and all is well in Blue Jay Nation.
Then Towers gets scrap starts and all is well in Blue Jay Nation.
Hey if the bible says put your faith in Hentgen and Smoltz can do it, why not try it.
The Shadow is a true righteous member of the Hentgen's flock. Walk in his footsteps to the 9th inning and know that when you believe in Hentgen as closer, you are never truly alone.
Like I said, (or thought I said, apparantly my post was deleted...) you don't have much to lose by trying Hentgen out as closer. It would probably never happen, but I'd like to see it tries personally. Towers is looking pretty good in AAA judging by his stats - why not give him another chance. Meh, I'm all for it.
YES!! The good news of The Hentgen spreads through out the land!! Another righteous member, strong in faith, has join The Hentgen's flock. The Hentgen will reward our faith in him, and be our 9th inning saviour and lead us in exodus from Terry "Wild Thing" Adams and forgive our sins!! Join the community one and all, cast down your false closer idol and worship before the true saviour....
THE HENTGEN.
THE HENTGEN.
You guys want 25 bomb allowing in 160 innings last year Pat Hentgen to close?
The Pat Hentgen who is striking out 3.43/9 and has given up 8HR in 42 innings in 2004?
The Pat Hentgen who has allowed righties a 1.011 OPS against so far?
The Pat Hentgen who is striking out 3.43/9 and has given up 8HR in 42 innings in 2004?
The Pat Hentgen who has allowed righties a 1.011 OPS against so far?
Hey, I got some cool pictures from the dome last night, do you know if it's possible to post them here? With HTMTML tags?
Pat Hentgen as closer is such a horrible idea that it might work... but that doesn't make it any less horrible.
As a famous man (Jobu) once said, desperate times calls for desperate measures
Hate to spoil the party - but I think Hentgen as closer is a bad idea.
Keith Talent,
I'll be happy to host a couple on our server if you like. But yes, you can post them with IMG tags if you're hosting them yourself.
I'll be happy to host a couple on our server if you like. But yes, you can post them with IMG tags if you're hosting them yourself.
Hey, I got some cool pictures from the dome last night, do you know if it's possible to post them here? With HTMTML tags?
Yeah, er, sorta. Just use HTML tags.
Yeah, er, sorta. Just use HTML tags.
You guys want 25 bomb allowing in 160 innings last year Pat Hentgen to close?
The Pat Hentgen who is striking out 3.43/9 and has given up 8HR in 42 innings in 2004?
The Pat Hentgen who has allowed righties a 1.011 OPS against so far?
Counterpoint (BA/OBA/SLG):
1st inning: .281/.314/.406
innings 1-3: 239/.284/.413
pitches 1-15: .280/.280/.400
pitches 16-30: .286/.353/.357
Henten comes out strong, and then hits a wall. If not closer, maybe at this stage of his career he is better suited to relief?
jc
Yes the Jays are struggling with the long ball, but there are leading or 2nd in the AL in doubles heading into today's game...The problem: They don't have men on base when they hit doubles because they dont hardly draw walks...It's catch 22 because they are always hitting with an 0-1 count, trying to work the count and see pitches.
In the mean time im going to start a grassroots campaign and presidential looking banners saying "Hentgen for Closer - Together we can get out the 9th".
If you're serious, I'll make that sign for you.
If you're serious, I'll make that sign for you.
Jobu, we've started a movement - Verily, great faiths doth start this way...
Mr. October: the Jays are walking at the same rate as 2003, hitting singles, doubles and triples at the same rate. The difference is a decrease by 15 in home runs. It's really just that simple.
If you just turn 15 outs into HR, the Jays would be hitting .278/.344/.438, compared to .279/.349/.455 in 2003. If "don't hardly draw walks" were the problem, then it would have been a problem last year, and it certainly wasn't.
If you just turn 15 outs into HR, the Jays would be hitting .278/.344/.438, compared to .279/.349/.455 in 2003. If "don't hardly draw walks" were the problem, then it would have been a problem last year, and it certainly wasn't.
i watched the game on ESPN and altho gomez did get to the ball, it was a HORRIBLE throw, no mustard behind it at ALL -- was never a chance at a DP, but he should have had Blanco at first who, last time i checked, is not to be confused with the second coming of Rickey, or even Jason Kendall, for that matter -- not to absolve Adams of fault (believe me, my television received serious threats this afternoon), but that out changes the whole complexion of the baseball game -- having said that, Adams is not the answer in the closer's role, but then, who the hell is on this team? everyone has had a rocky outing or two this season, except for Frasor -- i say give him a chance, he has good stuff from what i've seen, altho apparently his velocity is not there on back-to-back days -- how do they know this for sure until they try him out?
Hentgen signed a below market one year deal here in Toronto to start, get a bunch of run support, rack up a bunch of superficial stats like wins. All so he can make more cash with his next contract. I'm not sure that he'd be interested in becoming a closer and I'd guess there's an understanding between him and JP that he'd be a starter every fifth day.
Then again, there isn't a more superficial stat than saves. So maybe Hentgen would consider it. Nothing guarantees a big money contract more than getting sprinkled with pixie dust and gaining the mantle of "proven closer."
Then again, there isn't a more superficial stat than saves. So maybe Hentgen would consider it. Nothing guarantees a big money contract more than getting sprinkled with pixie dust and gaining the mantle of "proven closer."
Make it "Together, we /can/ get through the 9th!"
Fawaz,
What real evidence do you have that the players were 'on the juice' last year? None? I didn't think so. Oh I get it, you think you are being clever by accusing the team of using steroids. With all the talk about steroids this year you must believe you are being incredibly witty by making these baseless accusations. You know what? You're not.
What real evidence do you have that the players were 'on the juice' last year? None? I didn't think so. Oh I get it, you think you are being clever by accusing the team of using steroids. With all the talk about steroids this year you must believe you are being incredibly witty by making these baseless accusations. You know what? You're not.
Re: Keith Foulke. He's now got an 0.40 ERA, which really should be 0.00. He's allowed one run all year, which wouldn't have scored without "Fielder's Indifference". (Trailing 5-1, the Yanks got a 2-out single, Sierra took second on FI, and scored on a single, which was followed by a game-ending groundout).
Not that Foulke was going to sign with Toronto anyways, but how much smaller would that 7.5 game lead be if the Jays had somehow been able to land him?
Not that Foulke was going to sign with Toronto anyways, but how much smaller would that 7.5 game lead be if the Jays had somehow been able to land him?
Wow - I knew it wasn't that funny, but DAMN. You need to see someone about whatever you've got lodged up there, Cristian...
AMEN!, I step out for a few hours and the revolution grows in my abscence! This shows that faith in The Hentgen is growing even without me to guide it.
Some great points were made earlier, both of which helped preach conversion to Hentgenism, i'll paraphrase:
1)He's great out of the gate but explodes in the 5th, so why not let him try closing?
2) At this stage in our bullpen, can you honestly say its not worth at least a SHOT, i mean, at least over Adams?
3) He wants to pad his stats and make a nice contract next year, and everyone pays through the nose for "proven closers"
4) He's got a gimmicky closer moustache, and strong city support.
5) He is the one and only Hentgen, son of Cy, and Saviour of Saviours..... and 9th innings.
NFH: If you made that banner, I would proudly fly it every game. Hell, I think i'd tape it to my car.
Take it from Jobu, Jesus can't help you hit a curveball, but The Hentgen, He help you close games. You see.
Go forth and spread the word of The Hentgen, put your faith in him and it shall be returned Thrice Fold!
And always, ALWAYS remeber... Together we CAN get through the ninth!!
Amen.
Some great points were made earlier, both of which helped preach conversion to Hentgenism, i'll paraphrase:
1)He's great out of the gate but explodes in the 5th, so why not let him try closing?
2) At this stage in our bullpen, can you honestly say its not worth at least a SHOT, i mean, at least over Adams?
3) He wants to pad his stats and make a nice contract next year, and everyone pays through the nose for "proven closers"
4) He's got a gimmicky closer moustache, and strong city support.
5) He is the one and only Hentgen, son of Cy, and Saviour of Saviours..... and 9th innings.
NFH: If you made that banner, I would proudly fly it every game. Hell, I think i'd tape it to my car.
Take it from Jobu, Jesus can't help you hit a curveball, but The Hentgen, He help you close games. You see.
Go forth and spread the word of The Hentgen, put your faith in him and it shall be returned Thrice Fold!
And always, ALWAYS remeber... Together we CAN get through the ninth!!
Amen.
I think Frasor can close but there are some concerns.
Thankfully, batters don't get good swings on Frasor. That high fastball he throws is tantalizing and results in many cheap foul ball strikes. On the downside, it is going to be his control that will make or break him in this audition. He has compiled many three ball counts in his 20 innings. I would like to see him rein in that curveball a little more. It has nice drop but is all over the place.
Thankfully, batters don't get good swings on Frasor. That high fastball he throws is tantalizing and results in many cheap foul ball strikes. On the downside, it is going to be his control that will make or break him in this audition. He has compiled many three ball counts in his 20 innings. I would like to see him rein in that curveball a little more. It has nice drop but is all over the place.
http://www.bat-girl.com/archives/000099.html
i watched the game on ESPN and altho gomez did get to the ball, it was a HORRIBLE throw, no mustard behind it at ALL -- was never a chance at a DP, but he should have had Blanco at first who, last time i checked, is not to be confused with the second coming of Rickey, or even Jason Kendall, for that matter
Ah, but Blanco _thinks_ he's fast. Sometimes that helps him beat out stuff he shouldn't. COMN. Don't forget to click on the "open letter" link as well...
i watched the game on ESPN and altho gomez did get to the ball, it was a HORRIBLE throw, no mustard behind it at ALL -- was never a chance at a DP, but he should have had Blanco at first who, last time i checked, is not to be confused with the second coming of Rickey, or even Jason Kendall, for that matter
Ah, but Blanco _thinks_ he's fast. Sometimes that helps him beat out stuff he shouldn't. COMN. Don't forget to click on the "open letter" link as well...
Ladies and gentlemen, coming in to close the game for your Toronto Blue Jays...
Just add in the mean closer mustache. Maybe we could give him some Eric Gagne glasses too.
Just add in the mean closer mustache. Maybe we could give him some Eric Gagne glasses too.
Argh... does ANYONE know why I cant post my picture of The Hentgen?
So far I have this:
(img src="http://www.geocities.com/the_nitro_elf/pat.JPG" /)
with < instead of (
it shows me the size of the picture, but the box is all white with a little red x in the corner.
Its rediculously aggravating.
So far I have this:
(img src="http://www.geocities.com/the_nitro_elf/pat.JPG" /)
with < instead of (
it shows me the size of the picture, but the box is all white with a little red x in the corner.
Its rediculously aggravating.
My guess is that geocities doesn't allow hotlinking to pictures hosted on their servers.
The above picture is the work of Jobu(c).
Jobu, your html is fine. I now think that the preview function doesn't support images. Just post without preview and you should be fine.
Jobu, your html is fine. I now think that the preview function doesn't support images. Just post without preview and you should be fine.
Hmmm, I'm sure the picture was there when I first posted. Now it appears to be gone and replaced with the dreaded red X. Too bad because Jobu's picture is brilliant (even if he does give Hentgen emo glasses instead of Gagne goggles).
I am almost certain that geocities doesn't allow posting of its graphics. Most sites don't anymore. I usually have to use lycos.co.uk
http://members.lycos.co.uk/jobuandpat/
Just fabulous... i have my new The Hentgen photo, and I cant post the bloody thing anywhere. I even made a freakin lycos account but cant figure the damn thing out. This just aint right.
Just fabulous... i have my new The Hentgen photo, and I cant post the bloody thing anywhere. I even made a freakin lycos account but cant figure the damn thing out. This just aint right.
Well it took me all night, but here it goes....
The first artists redition of future closer The Hentgen:
The first artists redition of future closer The Hentgen:
The Deacon made a comment on the 20-20 sports update on the Fan 590 this morning: "Maybe they should let Hentgen close."
The word is spreading, Jobu.
I'll post a sample of your sign this afternoon.
The word is spreading, Jobu.
I'll post a sample of your sign this afternoon.
Making a starter a closer? ridiculous, Oakland had the same crazy idea back in 1987, and made a starter named Eckersley a closer, and you know the disaster that was.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/rrereport04.html#best
COMN for Baseball Prospectus' reliever report. Toronto's bullpen has been middle of the pack. The shocking thing in the report is how bad Cleveland's has been. I haven't been following, but all I can say to Indians' fans is "my sympathies".
COMN for Baseball Prospectus' reliever report. Toronto's bullpen has been middle of the pack. The shocking thing in the report is how bad Cleveland's has been. I haven't been following, but all I can say to Indians' fans is "my sympathies".
"The team played too hard today to lose it in one inning, but that's the life of a closer," said Adams, who is now 3 for 5 in save situations.
I think Adams has the wrong idea of the life of a closer.
I think Adams has the wrong idea of the life of a closer.
Nice sentiment, Adams. Blame your teammates when you can. Shrug your shoulders and tell them to suck it up when you can't.
This guy is poison.
This guy is poison.
I dont know who this "Deacon" is, but I like his style, maybe he can be a deacon for Hentgenism now.
Well, im off to work a 12 hour shift (I wish I was kidding) spread the good news of The Hentgen while I am gone!
Well, im off to work a 12 hour shift (I wish I was kidding) spread the good news of The Hentgen while I am gone!
Here's the first draft. I can add a mustache and maybe ditch the red stripes (though it doesn't look very political without them). Yay or nay?
Awesome poster! If you want it to look less Dukes of Hazard and more Canadian, you could sub maple leafs for the stars. But Dukes of Hazard may be a good thing... either way, the stripes need to stay. It's a great picture of Hentgen.
I really like the posters. How's this for a variation on the slogan: "Whatever gets you through the 9th, just keep on dancing!".
Yours does sound more like a political promise.
Yours does sound more like a political promise.
NFH,terrific job, maybe a moustache to make Pat look a little meaner, a la Goose Gossage
Now even if Hengten can close well enough to get some sort of neat-o nickname, how are we going to win when we rarely take leads into the 9th, what with the low ability to score runs?
Andrew,
Have you been watching lately? We've hot LOTS of leads going into the ninth.
Have you been watching lately? We've hot LOTS of leads going into the ninth.
Six or seven blown saves over 40 games, not all in the ninth, plus 17 wins ... so maybe every other game, I guess.
not sure if you are batgirl Jacko, but stumbling upon that hilarious blog post on henry blanco makes you genius enough, even if you aren't the creator -- cheers !
http://www.bat-girl.com/archives/000106.html
No, batgirl is not me!
Aaron Gleeman mentioned her site a few weeks ago.
Her perspective on baseball is...unique.
COMN for her Agent Mulder / A.J. Pierzynski interview.
jc
No, batgirl is not me!
Aaron Gleeman mentioned her site a few weeks ago.
Her perspective on baseball is...unique.
COMN for her Agent Mulder / A.J. Pierzynski interview.
jc
yeah, this batgirl is pretty good -- maybe we should commission her to figure out the 'real' problem with the jays so far this season --
HA HA HA! Im giddy with delight!! NFH, you are an image genious. That's probably the greatest photo I have ever seen, If I weren't already a member of Hentgen's flock, that poster alone would make me want to give him a shot. I wish I had that in bumpersticker format, I'd pass it out randomly to people as I walk down the street.
PS. National sports has 25% off Jay jerseys for the next 2 days if anyone's interested. I picked up a nifty black alternate for myself.
PS. National sports has 25% off Jay jerseys for the next 2 days if anyone's interested. I picked up a nifty black alternate for myself.
PPS. That image has now become my computer desktop.
I made another version where I gave him the Fu Manchu and put him in a new Jays cap. I'll post it tomorrow.
Wow, you actually got a hold of ESPN's secretive ball cap logo superimposing machine? I thought only the President and Skynet had access to that.
Vote Hentgen, Amen.
Vote Hentgen, Amen.
As a stranger to this club, I must confess I agree completly with this "Jobu" character! He makes an excellent case for Hentgenism and I have fully converted, as all of you should as well!! No bad can come from giving him a shot at it, it's win-win and I have a feeling about that halo he always has around him.
Vote for The Hentgen as closer and together... we CAN get through the ninth!
Vote for The Hentgen as closer and together... we CAN get through the ninth!
NFH: Do you realize that not only did you do such a good job that The Hentgen will look up and say "Hey, maybe I SHOULD be closer" he'll also say "Damn, I didn't know I still looked so young. I am the man."
Wow, you've raised the bar again NFH. That poster is 110% brilliant.
I definitely want to be there when that poster makes its debut; when's it coming out? Monday vs. the Angels?
Simply put, we have to take that poster down to the field during batting practice and get Pat to sign it. Talk about R0X0R.
I can't make Monday -- it's the one hockey game of the year for my wife's team that I'll be able to get to because of the holiday -- but I'll bring it Tuesday if Jobu is coming. It's his campaign, after all.
So should I print Blue Pat or Grey Pat? The hat and mustache look a little fake on Grey Pat, but no one will be able to tell from 20 feet away.
So should I print Blue Pat or Grey Pat? The hat and mustache look a little fake on Grey Pat, but no one will be able to tell from 20 feet away.
It's my campaign too...(sulk)
That's true. Are you coming on Tuesday?
Plus, Jobu already has The Hammer, so if you're going to come out to a bunch of games you can be entrusted with the keeping and transporting of Closer Pat.
That's true. Are you coming on Tuesday?
Plus, Jobu already has The Hammer, so if you're going to come out to a bunch of games you can be entrusted with the keeping and transporting of Closer Pat.
According to my opening day fridge magnet, they dont even play on Tuesday...
Gah, you're right.
So, who's coming Wednesday and Thursday? ;)
So, who's coming Wednesday and Thursday? ;)
If the fact that i've been to 6 of the last 7 home games is any indicator, i'll more than likely be there as long as work doesnt stop me.
Evening classes on Wednesday and Thursday...Let me know how it's received then. Start a 'Hentgen' chant in the 8/9th...
OK, so the sign is Jobu's until Fawaz hits a game that Jobu is at. Fair?
Jobu's been the driving force; he's gotta keep the sign. Besides, those damn classes keep me away a few times a week.
If anyone's interested in buying their own Fighting Jays jersey but have been on the fence due to budget constraints, I highly recommend checking out the sale at National Sports this weekend because Jay jerseys are 25% off. Since I have to work at this establishment I've noticed that after their hot-off-the-shelves debut in April, I was the first person since then to actually buy a jersey in my store. As keeping with store policies they wont even re-order Jay hats in that were long ago sold out. So if you were on the fence, go out and get one and show some blue jay pride all around the city.
we have to take that poster down to the field during batting practice and get Pat to sign it
Dont forget THE HAMMER , It's still my dream to have it signed by Thor or Sparky... oh hell, ANY Blue Jay. I think a signature will increase its power thrice fold.
I hope if The Hentgen sees the poster he knows we're doing it out of love and wanting to see him dominate in T.O. not that we think he's washed up and should put him out to pasture in the pen.
we have to take that poster down to the field during batting practice and get Pat to sign it
Dont forget THE HAMMER , It's still my dream to have it signed by Thor or Sparky... oh hell, ANY Blue Jay. I think a signature will increase its power thrice fold.
I hope if The Hentgen sees the poster he knows we're doing it out of love and wanting to see him dominate in T.O. not that we think he's washed up and should put him out to pasture in the pen.
I can make Monday after all!
Who's with me? 518 crew unite! I'll bring the Hentgen!
Who's with me? 518 crew unite! I'll bring the Hentgen!
Who's Thor?
The one and only Thor in MLB is Craig Wilson of the Pirates.
The one and only Thor in MLB is Craig Wilson of the Pirates.
Chris Gomez was called Thor in the game thread after his grand slam against Boston. He was the reason The Hammer was made in the first place.
I've been known to jump through rediculous hoops to see more games than I probably should so far this year, but it looks like I've finally met my match. I already promised my friend I'd attend her loser victoria day BBQ so no monday for me. What a day to miss with the poster comming out too. :(
Anyone one up for wednesday and thursday? :>
Anyone one up for wednesday and thursday? :>
I'll be there Wednesday and Thursday for sure now. Lets get out there with the Hentgen poster and some good cheer club support and make a difference!