Two scorched grounders by the Jays and they are now set up with men on 1st and 2nd.

Hopefully Delgado can drive em in.

On a side note, is there anything more annoying than watching an knuckleballer pitch for the opposition? It's so painful to watch knuckler after knuckler. Maybe watching Barry Zito pitch against the Jays? I hate seeing 12-6 curve after 12-6 curve for called strike after called strike.

is there anything more annoying than watching an knuckleballer pitch for the opposition? It's so painful to watch knuckler after knuckler.

Actually, I love it. It's frustrating watching a knuckleballer rip your own team to shreds, though.

Error for Hinske? That was a tougher play than the one Cabrera had to make on the Wells grounder, I think.

Actually, I love it. It's frustrating watching a knuckleballer rip your own team to shreds, though.

That's the part that frustrates me, watching the knuckleballer/Zito have success with basically the same pitch over and over and over...

You get the point :)

I'm sure I'd love to see Zito in a Jays uniform though.

Anyone else think maybe Hinske should have waited on that one with Manny being the baserunner? Still a tough play either way.

Error for Hinske? That was a tougher play than the one Cabrera had to make on the Wells grounder, I think.

I'm not too sure about that. Wells smoked the ball to Cabrera and he basically had to try to do a sliding backhand and the ball popped up into the air.

Hinske's grounder on the other hand was an all or nothing sorta backhanded attempt on a chopper near the edge of the grass.

I think the scorer got it right IMO.

Again Batista's horrid control gets him into a jam. Watching him pitch is like watching the Anti-David Bush pitch. Instead of always getting ahead of hitters, he's always falling behind and generally has no control of where the pitch is going.

He has to be injured.

The Red Sox are gonna pound him tonight.

Cabrera barely had to move, and the ball hit him right in the glove. It was hit hard, but a major league shortstop has to field it.

Scoring is very subjective, obviously. Anyways, the Sox capitalized, Jays didn't...

He has to be injured.

Watching the Red Sox broadcast Jerry Remy just said that it looks like Batista's velocity is down from his previous starts against the Sox so perhaps that's the case.

Does anyone pay attention to the radar gun on Batista?

Lovely way to start.

Already 4-0 Sox

The Red Sox announcers are talking about how Batista doesn't have anywhere near the kind of zip on his fastball that he's used to having. Their assuming that since he's walked so many batters and he's had such high pitch counts this season, he's starting to tire down early then most starting pitchers would.

I tend to agree

I know this is not a popular opinion, but I'd rather have Kelvim. :(

Well, 4-0 now. Blue Jays in tough once again. Throw in the fact that Wakefield has beens struggling, and I don't like where this is headed...

I know this is not a popular opinion, but I'd rather have Kelvim.

At nearly twice the price?

Maybe.

I don't have their salary info in front of me, but I'm guessing Escobar = Batista + Ligtenberg, right?

I'd do that trade.

If Gabe Gross hits that ball to ANY OTHER part of the ballpark it's gone. But it goes into that triangle in right center and it's a warning track flyout.

1st and 3rd 1 out for Cash

Is it just me or is Rios striking out a lot lately?

Jesus Christ Kevin Cash is an awful hitter.

Escobar = Batista + Ligtenberg, right?

Pretty much.

Escobar signed a three-year deal worth $18.75 million. Batista's three-year deal is for $13.1 million.

2004 VORP

Escobar 32.4
Batista 29.2

It's a wash. Batista's cheaper. If you offered me the deal now, straight-up, I think might take Escobar because he's outperformed my expectations and he's got the better profile for success on the back end of the deals - plus the dollars are a lot closer in 2005 and 2006.

But at the time, Batista was the right signing, and given where the budget is at, he's probably the better guy to have now.

Geez, I hope Cat is ok. That look like it stung ;)

Anyone know why Hudson isn't playing tonight? I'm guessing, given the season is what it is, that he's hurt himself playing so well the last week or so but I haven't heard anything.

Vernon is just MASHING the ball as of late. That's two line drives that he's just smoked through the infield.

A quick 1 pitch at-bat for Delgado gets the Jays on the board 4-1.

Batista has taken a huge step backwards from last season. His ERA is almost 1 run higher and last year he finished with 142 K's to only 60 BB's where as this season he has 90 K's to 73 BB's. By the start of next season he will be 34 yrs old and this year leads me to believe he's already declining because of age.

On the other hand Escobar is 28 and is having an outstanding year. His 15th in the ERA in the AL and is 5th with 131 K's to only 57 BB's.

I said this 2 games ago but I believe the Jays will lose 100 games this season. I have my eyes set on Aug 31st - Sept 2 because that's when the Jays play the M's. Both teams are battling for the 3rd pick and with the M's playing better baseball recently there's a good chance they will overtake the Jays in the standings.

The positive news is that the Jays are doing their best to get the 3rd pick!

Does anyone pay attention to the radar gun on Batista?

He hits 92/93 with the good fastball. But Batista throws at least two fastballs, and one is a cutter and is much slower.

Batista, when he's throwing the cutter a lot, doesn't throw nearly as many strikes, and it's not nearly as good (or as fast) a pitch as his good fastball. At least IMO. Maybe he's throwing the cutter a lot tonight?

By the start of next season he will be 34 yrs old and this year leads me to believe he's already declining because of age.

It would be odd for a healthy 33-year-old pitcher to decline simply because of age.

Is it just me or is Rios striking out a lot lately?

Is his last 29 AB's he's K'ed 9 times.

It would be odd for a healthy 33-year-old pitcher to decline simply because of age.

I don't have all the stats in front of me but it's logical to assume performance declines in sports with age. The only guy that puzzles me and goes against this logic is Bonds.

I know this has been a popular demand over the last month, but who're the top 10 prospects for next years draft? The only one that springs to mind is B.j. Upton's brother (Justin?).

It is just amazing how bad the Jays are. They have a realistic shot at losing 100 games this year. Who would have imagined that would happen when the season started? I am getting so sick of seeing them lose every night. I wish this miserable season would end already.

It is sad to watch. They basically have no shot against teams like the Yankees or Red Sox. The difference between the two teams playing tonight is so painfully obvious that it almost hurts. The Red Sox take advantage of nearly every mistake while the Jays strand baserunner after baserunner.

If the Red Sox 4 hitter is up with 2nd and 3rd and 1 out, you can pretty much assume that both runs will score. With the Jays it's 25/75 that only one run will score.

Random fact that I'm sure is obvious to most of you:

Barry Bonds OBP is .605 this year. .605!! I was figuring around .550. Absolutely ridiculous.

I wonder if JP has any interest in Corey Koskie. Draws a lot of walks, plays good defence, a career .280 hitter, and has HR power.

Of course Hinske (6th worst OPS in the AL) would have to be traded to make room for Koskie.

it's logical to assume performance declines in sports with age

I won't get into the meaning of "logical", but while in general sporting performance declines with age, 33-year-old pitchers who are otherwise healthy don't suffer the kind of hit Batista has to his K/W ratio "because of age" in a single year. Something else is at work. He may be injured (which may be partly due to age), he may be pitching differently, he may have mechanical difficulties (Batista, who's a tinkerer, would be extra prone to this).

I am asserting this pretty baldly, but my evidence here is only anecdotal. I am only saying that it is odd, not impossible. Some players may well rapidly wear out totally due to aging. The majority of pitchers in Batista's age category, with a long history of effectiveness, do not just wear out all of a sudden except for injury factors. But I think it does happen. It may even be happening to Pedro, who is Batista's age.

Pitchers, who do not depend on the quickness of eye and hand like hitters do, but are much more susceptible to career-ending injuries, tend to age quite a bit differently from hitters.

Would it be wise for the Jays to try and look into signing Magglio Ordonez? I believe he's a free agent after this season, and his injury problems might drive down his market value. They could slide him over to left field, or DH him if they'd like.

Any idea on how much money he'd cost.

Ughh.... what a butchery by Rios in right.

who're the top 10 prospects for next years draft? The only one that springs to mind is B.j. Upton's brother (Justin?)

We won't really know who the top HS prospects until late fall. This alone should tell you how much of a crapshoot HS picks are... :)

BA had a Top 10 college prospects recently, with many of the usual suspects on it... Mike Pelfrey, Alex Gordon, Jed Lowrie, John Mayberry Jr... (all four would also be in my Top 10).

I will have an essay on the top college prospects for the 2005 draft available sometime in the fall, probably not at Batter's Box though.

It's a shame that UNC LHP Matt Miller is only going to be a soph. this season. He would have been a VERY nice pick for the Jays.

Excellent points Craig! I will admit I have never seen Batista pitch before this season so I don't know if he always had the habit of falling behind the count 2-0 or if this just developed this season. I do find it disturbing he puts himself in way too many jams and he will 34yrs old next season.

As for Maggie, I read somewhere where he wants around 12-15 mil a season in a long term deal.

JP doesn't have the money to sign Maggie.

I would try and trade Batista in the off-season. His K/BB rate is terrible, and he'll be 34 and 35 in the last two years of his contract. His ERA and IP should be enough to get sufficient value for him, preferably a major league ready bat. Maybe to MIN for Restovich and Crane (add a player from our side as well). Probably too much from their end, but it's a start.

I have a bad, bad feeling Batista is going to decline next year, his walk rate, age, and lack of K's being the main reason. Trading him would give us $4.0M to spend on another starter and other weaknesses.

If only Minnesota was stupid enough to give Morneau for Batista....

Wow, 12-15 mil for a guy that's been injured for the majority of the season?

Who his agent... SCOTT BORAS?!?

His name is actually Andrew Miller. He's a good prospect, and the Jays will certainly like him. However, the Jays already have Andrew Miller... only his name is David Purcey.

There's an even better NCAA pitcher who's going to be a sophomore, Ian Kennedy of USC. He also bears watching for 2006...

Thanks for the correction Craig. I've been seeing too much of the Indians as of late. Matt Miller is their right handed long guy.

Andrew Miller looks to be a good one though. He'll be playing in the Cape Cod League so he might be worth watching.

I have a question for all of you ... what would you grade JP so far as the GM of the Jays?

Take into consideration the payroll, signing Hinske long term after his rookie year for big dollars, signing guys like Cat, Zaun, signing Adams, Lightenberg, etc.... Basically the good and the bad.

I would Grade JP with a C+. I believe his trades and FA signings are a wash. A lot of the current Jays are guys that JP brought in and the team has a chance to lose 100 games. I would give him a poorer grade but his budget restriction does hinder what he can do so I took that into consideration.

Why wouldn't you include the draft and farm system in the grading?

I wonder if JP has any interest in Corey Koskie. Draws a lot of walks, plays good defence, a career .280 hitter, and has HR power.

He's another player who struggles against LHP. 714OPS last three years against LHP which is a bit borderline. I'd take it if he came a *lot* cheaper than the 4.5million he's getting now, but at that price...

http://www.sportspages.com/content/blog.php?p=2183&more=1#more2183
Check the homepage link for a story I wrote back in the winter when EVERYONE was on the JP bandwagon.

Actually, a lot of people from this site trashed it (especially for saying Hinske wasn't a good prospect long-term).

I said it then and I'll say it now: It's still too early to judge J.P., not one player from his drafts had played before this season.

GRADE: Incomplete.

Craig, yeah, Batista's cheaper, Escobar is younger. Batista's only a couple years younger than Hentgen, heh.

I just personally like Escobar more. I always did like him, even though he wasn't exactly a fan fave.

The interesting thing to watch in the off-season is just how low or high the market value is for Troy Glaus and Richie Sexson, both coming off season ending surgeries. If we can get one of them for around $6.0M or $7.0M, we should jump all over that. Glaus more than Sexson should have his market value drop, mainly because he's not a flashy power hitter (low avg, a lot of walks/k's). Either one would be a great fit at 1B.

The sad thing is, if we offered Koskie the remaining worth of Hinske's contract (3yr, $13M), he may accept it.

Why wouldn't you include the draft and farm system in the grading?

I can't really judge him on the drafts and the farm system because I need to see these kids play in the big leagues before I can say his picks were good or bad.

Although I will say none of his draft picks really jump out at me except Aaron Hill.

God it's painful watching this offense...

The fact remains that the Jays HAVE TO make a big splash this off-season. I think it's insane for people to think of guys like Eric Crozier and John Hattig as possible "Delgado replacements." Those 2 guys shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Delgado. If you want to properly replace Carlos, your going to have to spend some coin. I think either Glaus or Sexson would be a GREAT addition for the Jays. If the Jays stand pat and try and replace Carlos from within the offense will be just as bad or possibly worse next season.

Ahh, you gotta love it.

Hinske takes a slow curve RIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE for strike 3 and he actually has the nerve to complain about it.

Come on Eric, your better than that... Your not David Ortiz now...

what would you grade JP so far as the GM of the Jays?

Incomplete.

I think either Glaus or Sexson would be a GREAT addition for the Jays.

Yeah, they would have turned this season around.

While my grade is incomplete, I think the fairer assessment of JP's job lies somewhere closer to Richard Griffin's opinion than that of the loyal "Bauxites"

I have to give a lot of credit to Theo for signing Ortiz to an extension after he got off to a really hot start this season.

An MVP candidate (on pace for 41 HR's and 144 RBI's)for 6.25 mil a season is excellent value. And the Sox hold the option for the 3rd year.

And I'm also amazed the Twins contend every year even after having to trade away pending FA's or losing players throughn FA.

Look at all the players that have left the Twins: Ortiz, Guardado, Hawkins, Rogers, Milton, Mientkiewicz, and Pierzynski.

Wouldn't surprise me to see them lose Radke and Koskie this off-season. They manage to win a lot game while hovering around a 50-54 mil payroll.

Next year's Blue Jays are this year's Padres.
And this year's Blue Jays are last year's Padres.

Sorry but the NL West doesn't have teams like NY and Boston. This year's Padres gain from playing in one of the two weakest divisions in baseball.

Darn. If Rios doesn't slip he's got an inside the parker! Nice job of getting the bag with his hand though.

I'd give JP an incomplete for now, but I really like the job he's done so far and I'd probably give him a B- if I HAD to grade him now. His drafts have been solid, despite lacking superstar potential as most seem to complain about. Also, people love to point out the guys like Adams and some of the other poor bullpen guys but they coincidentally fail to mention the trade for Menechino, signing Gomez, Zaun, Bordick last season, etc.

He's done a solid job in my view.

Hey on a positive note Jenny Finch is pitching on TSN right now and several gals on Team Canada go to my school!

It depends on who is doing the grading. From a die-hard's standpoint, you can say "incomplete" because you have your eye on the future, and you know things might very well be bright.
From somebody looking to spend their entertainment dollar in Toronto? Simple. C- or worse. Who wants to see the 'Berg Brothers suck it up? (Kerry and Dave)
I like JP and still somewhat have faith in this "plan", but baseball is a business, and I don't know many friends I can call who will willingly spend dollars on a ticket, and this season has pushed them farther away. From a business perspective (JP's still fielding a money-losing team) it isn't good. Hopefully he'll Lee Iacocca this team into a money-maker.

Batista can throw the ball 94 mph; Hentgen couldn't get it over 86 this year.

Ladies and gents, when you want to check if a pitcher is past it, compare his current fastball to the one in his prime, crafty lefthanders excepted.

If Batista can ever develop a good change up that he can throw at 82 and turn over, his strikeout rate is going to go way up.

I can't really judge him on the drafts and the farm system because I need to see these kids play in the big leagues before I can say his picks were good or bad.

Then it's kind of stupid to give him a grade at all right now, seeing as the draft and farm system constitutes the main part of his work to date as the GM.

Oh my God, what was Dale Sveum thinking?

Gross gunned Mueller by a MILE. Chalk that up as another mistake by Sveum. Luckily for the Sox it doesn't matter.

To end the 8th, Mueller gets thrown out by Gross by a freakin' MILE at home.. hilarious to watch. Small mercies, I guess.

DaveInNYC, you beat me to it.. I swear your post wasn't there when I wrote mine.. funny we used identical all-caps..

Batista has taken a huge step backwards from last season. His ERA is almost 1 run higher and last year he finished with 142 K's to only 60 BB's where as this season he has 90 K's to 73 BB's.

Not as big a step backwards as Wells or Delgado. Batista was a) coming off his best season (6.6 K/9 IPT was well above his career average of 5.85) b) moving from the National League West to the American League East. Switching to the AL is always tough on a pitcher's numbers, because DHs normally hit better than pitchers.

Oh come on Fighting Jays. Don't tease us like this. I would have been fine with a 6-2 defeat, but this might send me into cardiac arrest if they strand the tying runners now.

Come on Cat!

Oh my God what a teaser!

Cat drives one to the warning track but can't quite get it off the Monstah!

Oh well, good effort.

Robert: I disagree with you. Drafting is a huge part of being a GM but up until this date JP has made several trades, signed FA's, and released guys. It would be silly to say he can't be graded right now just because we haven't seen his draft picks play in bigs. So can we grade JP once his draft picks get 2 yrs under their belt? Or should we wait until they get 4 or 5 years under their belt?

As for attendance the Jays are third form last in MLB averaging 20,633 per game which has been inflated by a couple of $2 Tuesdays. They've only outdrawn the D-Rays and Expos. They're almost down 1700 fans per night from last season.

I'm guessing last season's winning record didn't do much to sell season tickets. As long as the fans stay away from the Dome it doesn't give Rogers a good reason to up the budget. It's already been reported he's been bleeding money on the Jays for the past several years. I believe they said they lost 30 mil 2 years ago. If they can't sell tickets after winning 86 games I don't know how they will sell tickets for next season. But if you're a Jays fan I expect some really good ticket packages for next season. Wouldn't be surprised to see some buy 5 get 2 or 3 games for free.

Cat hits the ball hard the guys in the control room/truck decide to show us the Jays dugout ... WTF?

JP's coming up in about 15 mins for those that are interested.......

something tells me I will hear JP being asked about whether Delgado will be back next season for the millionith time

Geez, you'd figure that with BJ Ryan's numbers he'd be the Orioles closer instead of the inconsistent Jorge Julio.

Dude has 91 K's in 64 innings pitched.

Lefties are 6/76 against him!

That $30M loss has to be on paper only. Don't forget that Rogers sells the Jays television rights to... Rogers. Rogers #1 isn't getting very much money for selling television rights, but Rogers #2 sure makes a killer profit on advertising sold during telecasts.

Anyone know what Matt Clement and his agent are rumored to be seeking this off-season?

I'm watching the Cubs-Brewers game on Extra Innings and Matt is just racking up the K's. 11 K's on the night, and the last nine outs he's recorded have been by the K.

I'm sure JP thinks the rotation is fine, but if he's not looking for TOO much he would be an amazing addition.

But of course, curing the offense must come first.

It would be silly to say he can't be graded right now just because we haven't seen his draft picks play in bigs.

For the record, YOU say you can't grade him until you've seen his draft picks play in the majors. I don't agree with that position.

I love Clement. By far the best 5th rotation pitcher in the Majors. Heck he could be the staff ace for most teams. His numbers speak for themselves.

Considering the injury problems of Prior and Wood the Cubs would be smart to keep him.

I expect Clement to be one of the most sough-after FA's. Wouldn't be surprised to see a team give him 8-10 mil a season.

Robert: I'm getting confused. I'll stick with my C+ grade and leave it at that.

Woo Hoo JP is next!

Bastista battling a bad hip and bad hamstring, according to JP

What I'm saying is if you want to grade you've gotta include the draft and farm system. It makes no sense to grade a GM and leave out that stuff.

So, either include that stuff in the grade or don't grade at all.

I'm guessing that JP wishes he could have some of Theo and Beane's magic "find a DH/1B for relatively cheap" dust.

Look at the success of guys like Ortiz, Hatteberg, and Durazo. Is there even anyone out there on the market that closely resembles one of these guys or that could have the impact of one of them?

I'm starting to look more and more at minor leaguers that are currently blocked because they play in the NL on a team that's locked at 1B. Ryan Howard in Philly springs to mind, he already has 43 homers this season in the minors. Shealy (spelling?) from Colorado is another guy that's a possibility. Sure these guys would require the Jays trading away a bulk of their farm system, but those guys are young and would be on the Jays for a while so it would be worth the investment in my opinion.

Also, JP has mentioned that he's looking at guys that are going to be arb eligible that their teams won't be able to afford. Adam Dunn immediately springs to mind but the Reds would probably ask for the world for him.

Then you have FA's like Glaus, Sexson, Tony Clark even. It should be interesting to see how JP goes about getting a DH or a 1B OR BOTH this off-season.

Longest question ever.

I guess I should say I give JP a C+ while ignoring the drafts and farm systems.

The question I have for you Robert is how many years should you wait before grading a GM then? 5 years? 8 years?

Off topic but having just watched the interview with Perdita Felicien (who went to a rival high school of mine)... I knew she was amazing on the track but even through simply listening to her speak one gets the impression that she's a winner in all aspects, through and through.

Speaking of Durazo, he's got 3 HR's tonight-and the game's not over yet. Yeah, I'm playing him in fantasy of course.

As much as I like hearing JP's answers, the questions invariably give me cramps. The callers who kiss his ass are worse than the callers that await the glorious return of Gord Ash.

Same here Zarco... got him on my team, that's the only reason why I mentioned him of course! ;)

He "only" has 18 homeruns, but if you take him out of The Net I'm sure he could hit 25-30 a year easy, possibly even 35.

I think Eric Crozier's brother called in earlier.

Interesting JP said you would see Hudson, Wells, and Rios play next year for sure. Guess what name is missing .... Mr. Scuffle Monster himself Eric Hinske!

Hinske's contract and lack of performance is going to be very painful for the Jays. I wonder if J.P. can get out from under that one.

Please stop wishing JP and his family all the best. Please.

JP's probably begging some GM to take Hinske and his contract off his hands. What a dissapointment Eric has been the last 2 seasons. Atleast last year he had the injury excuse, this year there is no excuse. He said it himself that he was in the best shape of his playing career but that doesn't seem to be making much of a difference.

How much of Eric's deal would the Jays have to eat to get him off their hands? What kind of value would they get in return?

I know Hinske backers like to bring up the fact he ranks first in AL 3B in Fielding % and has made the fewest errors but what they don't tell you is that he is also dead last in range factor and zone rating. And he has the slowest release from getting the ball out of his hands. He has a habit of double pumping/clutching before the throws which costs him time to get out the runner.

Well someone just asked JP "what about Hinske?". JPs response was what he's been saying all along. That they still like Hinske, that he has three years left on his deal and that he thinks they'll be his best years. Because the caller brought up Phelps as a comparison, JP also mentioned that he thinks Hinske is a far superior player to Phelps, better baserunner, better fielder, and all things considered a better hitter too.

I missed what's going on with JP's family. Can anyone elaborate?

Oh, and I was sure I heard Hinske's name along with Rios, Wells and Hudson.

The question I have for you Robert is how many years should you wait before grading a GM then? 5 years? 8 years?

This depends entirely on the GM's modus operandi.

For instance, it was easy to grade Gillick quickly because he had free spending owners and the complete flexibility to build a roster via FA and costly (dollar-wise) trades. He did very well at this.

I've said this before, but I think that any small-market GM needs a minimum of 5 years before warranting a fair assessment. The reason, of course, is that the primary roster building tool at his disposal would be the draft. This timeline would accomodate for good, college age prospects to filter through the system and gain a decent amount of major-league ABs/innings (ignoring high-schoolers)...

Like you said before, Ron, you don't want to grade the minors because you don't know how the kids are going to do until they hit the bigs...

You can grade them after a month and every month after that if you want. I don't know if your grading would amount to a hill of beans, though.

Off-topic, but Brandon League had another good start tonight. 6 IP, 5 H, 2 ER, 1 BB, 8 K. I believe he now has 28 K's in his last 20 innings as a starter (or something like that). I hope Ricciardi doesn't call him up in September, we know what it did to Peterson.

Keep him as a starter and start him in Syracuse next year.

Which means he's coming up in September and will permanently be a reliever before he's even given a chance as a starter.

The Jays NEED to try and keep Brandon League as a starter. I agree Scott that he shouldn't be called up in September but it might be tempting for JP given the Jays recent struggles... especially in the pen.

League has the potential to be a dominant starter. He throws around 95-96 even 97 and higher and he throws it from nearly an unhittable arm angle (almost sidearm, not quite though) If he were ever able to develop his slider and a 3rd quality pitch (probably a change) I think he would have a shot to be a dominant starter in the AL.

He'll need time though, as he's still very young and raw but he's certainly got loads of potential and IMO it would be wasted in the bullpen.

League sounds like he has the potential to be one of the best relief pitchers of his generation.

I think League's problem is that he still hasnt developed a major-league quality/consistent third pitch and thus doesnt project to be a starter in the majors...but I would tend to agree - as long as he is successful, in the minors, leave him in the starting rotation (obviously watching his pitch counts and innings pitched for the year)...build up his experience...

In the end, though, it appears the Jays greater need is build up their relief corp. I am pretty comfortable with Halladay, Lilly, Batista and Bush as the first four starters...and Towers/Miller holding the 5th spot for someone like McGowan (when healthy), Banks, or Marcum...

C.

I say give young starters time in the bullpen as long relievers. It teaches them about the majors, but in a low-pressure environment... the Twins are perfect examples of this (Santana). The Phillies are doing it with Ryan Madsen this year as well.

When asked about Hinske the answer JP gave what was I expected. He ain't going to come out and say the Hinske signing was a mistake while Hinske is still on the roster. But if you ask JP if signing him long term at those dollars was a mistake off the record I'm thinking there's a chance he will say yes.

Besides the struggles on the field, his dip at the plate has me worred.

Usually with more experience you should be improving but in Hinske's case it's going South.

Let at his rookie season and compare it to what he is projected to finish with this season

Doubles: 38/24
HR: 24/15
BB: 77/53
AVG: .279/.253
OBP: .365/.315
SLG: .481/.380
OPS: .846/.695

And this is after he declated in Spring Training he's in the best shape of his life, %100 injury free, and focus and dedicated to having an outstanding season.

League sounds like he has the potential to be one of the best relief pitchers of his generation.

Wow, that's quite the ringing endorsement Robert. Do you truly believe this? I too believe he could be a great one, but one of the best of his generation??

Would he figure more as a middle reliever, or with his gas and nasty stuff does he figure in as the potential "future closer"?

I think the easiest comparison to Brandon League would have to be Kyle Farnsworth... They both bring big time heat and League is trying to learn Farnsworth's out pitch, the slider.

I think League's future is in the pen where the Jays need a flame thrower to come in and shut down teams as a setup man or hopefully a closer.

As Baseball Prospectus stated...If he gets a second pitch, he'll be a dominant reliever; a third pitch, and he'll be a good big league starter.

He could be. That's all I said.

I rather thought Ricciardi saw Peterson, if anyone, as the prospect most likely to turn into a ML closer.

Even if League comes up and works in the bullpen, it doesn't mean much of anything as far as the team's plans for him. There is something to be said for Weaver's law ("The best place for a rookie pitcher is long relief")

League's future might be in the bullpen, but as long as he's pitching well, keep him as a starter. His strike out rate since being put in the New Hampshire rotation is very encouraging. And he's only 21!!

Let him fail as a starter before branding him with the reliever title. It's way too early, he's way too young, and he needs innings to develop. Same with Vermilyea. The guy throws perfect games, shutouts, and he's demoted to reliever? Come on. I know that's where Jamie wants to be (a reliever), but if he's succeeding as a starter, why limit his innings?

So, Robert Dudek, what's your opinion of a fair evaluation tool for a general manager? Apparently grading him in Ron's fashion amounts to "a hill of beans." Personally, I think 5 years is too long. Keep in mind baseball is a business, not a Nintendo game where you can hit the reset button. I tend to agree with Ron's evaluation, than the curt "no that's wrong" type of answer. A fun job could be devising a fair General Manager Report Card Metric. Maybe the next step for sabermetricians.....

Well I hate being the guy who points out the silver lining, but interestingly enough Hinske's Strikeout rate this season is the lowest of his career.

It's definitely been a frustrating year. He started out extremely poorly in April and May, looked good in June, looked real good in July, and just when you think he's figured it out he completely tanks in August. Plus how do you lose weight and become a worse base stealer? Before this season he's 25:3 in Stolen Bases:Caught Stealing. This year he drops 20lbs and he's 9:7.

I think the easiest comparison to Brandon League would have to be Kyle Farnsworth

I don't think that's a good thing at the moment. Farnsworth has gotten rocked in the last 2+ weeks and there's talk around here of canning him. The discussions remind me very much of Bauxite talk about one Terry Adams...

Apparently grading him in Ron's fashion amounts to "a hill of beans."

It DOESN'T amount to a hill of beans.

Since you asked,

Set up an objective framework - the areas in which the GM will be graded, the criteria for achieving certain scores and the weighting of the different categories for the overall grade. There should be a rational defence of each of your parameters.

Then you create a historical pool of teams in situations comparable to what J.P. inherited here. You grade each of those GM's in each area and tally up the results.

three comments i heard with keith law on the radio:
- saying gustavo chacin is a left-handed josh towers
- while frasor was pitching said brandon league needed to develope a change-up
- having nobody penciled in at short next year at new hampshire the job should go to raul tablado.

What does everyone think of Chacin? He's certainly been lights out this year and he's only 23. Is he a legitamite prospect yet? Better suited as a reliever or starter? What is his ceiling? Set-up? Closer? #5 starter? Better? Too many questions?

Chacin is 24 and this is the fourth year that he's spent time at AA. At the beginning of the year I might have guessed 5th starter was his ceiling. If he can continue pitching the way he has in August then you might have to say a finesse Jamie Moyer type who can win his share of games in a non-flashy manner.

But the thing about Jamie Moyer... nobody resembles Jamie Moyer. Jamie Moyer didn't become Jamie Moyer until he was 33 years old.

The Boston Red Sox traded him to Seattle in 1996 for Darren Bragg. Moyer had gone 7-1 for them. This brought his lifetime W-L record up to 66-77. He had been released by Texas (1990), St. Louis (1991), and the Cubs (1992). He was a Detroit for eight months but never threw a pitch for them, missing the entire 1992 season.

Since then, of course, as a Mariner he has gone 125-63 in roughly 8 years. But how often do successful finesse lefties have success with the teams they started with?

There's Tom Glavine. Who else? There must be others....

Uhhhhh... Randy Wolf?! (Best I could think of...)

Correction on Chacin's age: He's 23, born 12/04/80.

http://aaronreynolds.ca
Okay, gonna step in here and clear up what seems to be a lack of understanding between a couple of parties:

Ron says he'll grade JP but ignore the farm system and draft.
Robert says this is a bad idea because the farm system and draft are integral to JP's strategy. Let me liken this to "I'll grade Barry Bonds but ignore the home runs and walks." It's not quite as ludicrous, but I think you get where I'm coming from.
Ron then says he's not going to wait five years to rate JP.
Robert says you don't have to.
Everyone is confused.

You can rate JP and JP's drafts and farm system now: simply compare them to how other people have done in the draft and how other farm systems are doing. Moffatt has been doing a great job with his draft pick expectation threads.

http://aaronreynolds.ca
And to answer a question from wayyyyyy early in the thread: Jerry said on the radio that Gibbons said that O-Dog wasn't starting because he didn't want to get him out of his wicked hitting groove by making him face a crazy knuckleballer.

Notice that as soon as the knuckleballer was out of the game, in came the O-Dog and there was another hit. Know what? If O-Dog's plate struggles have been mental and Gibbons is keeping him hitting by doing stuff like this, I have to say that he's brilliant.

And I apologize for the awful construction of my first sentence.

Brilliant Boomhauer.

Finesse lefties, who have success with their original team. Hmm, there's probably a ton. How about starting with our own homegrown talent?