Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - The Billion Dollar Ballclub

At last, something moderately useful in a Gammons column, the most recent of which he provides a running list of "players teams would love to unload to rid themselves of the salaries. They are, pure and simple, bad contracts" ...

Sammy Sosa. Preston Wilson. Kevin Brown. Jason Giambi. Kenny Lofton. Cliff Floyd. Mike Piazza. Tom Glavine. Byung-Hyun Kim. Ryan Klesko. Jason Kendall. Andruw Jones. Shawn Green. Darren Dreifort. Arthur Rhodes. Jose Vidro. Pat Burrell. Mike Lieberthal. Charles Johnson. Chan Ho Park. Matt Lawton. Paul Konerko. Eric Hinske. Edgardo Alfonzo. Ray Durham. Juan Encarnacion. Shigetoshi Hasegawa. Jay Payton. Jeff Bagwell. Jose Guillen. Tim Salmon. Bret Boone. Joe Mays. Kazuo Matsui ... the list goes on and on.

Note: This thread quickly morphed into "Jose Guillen: Underappreciated All-Star or Satanic Overpaid Clubhouse Monster?" Join the fun!

The interesting and moderately useful part comes in the game of constructing what could be a complete roster of these players. I haven't calculated what their combined salary would be, but let's pretend that some team out there has a billion dollars to spend; they could do worse than this. Any changes to make to this roster using only the listed players? Who hasn't Gammons listed that we can use to fill the only holes on the team -- two bullpen slots? How would this team do, anyway? Can we do something about the injury-prone nature (and the general suckitude) of the rotation?

25-Man Roster
C Mike Piazza
1B Jeff Bagwell
2B Bret Boone
SS Kazuo Matsui
3B Jose Vidro*
LF Ryan Klesko
CF Andruw Jones
RF Shawn Green
DH Sammy Sosa
SP Kevin Brown
SP Tom Glavine
SP Joe Mays
SP Chan Ho Park
SP Darren Dreifort
CL Byung-Hyun Kim
RP Shigetoshi Hasegawa
RP Arthur Rhodes
RP
RP
Bench
OF Jay Payton
OF Jose Guillen
IF Edgardo Alfonzo
IF Ray Durham
C Jason Kendall

Sorry, no room at the Inn: Eric Hinske*, Jason Giambi, Kenny Lofton, Pat Burrell, Mike Lieberthal, Charles Johnson, Preston Wilson, Juan Encarnacion, Matt Lawton, Paul Konerko, Tim Salmon

*Yes, Vidro is primarily a 3B, but we went with him over Hinske for reasons discussed ad nauseum here on Da Box; Boone has appeared at 3B eight times, while Vidro's career total at the hot corner is 45. Durham has never appeared there. Believe it or not, former Red Sox 3B phenom Jeff Bagwell has also never appeared in a MLB game as a 3B.

Posted by Mick Doherty on Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:39 AM EST.

The Billion Dollar Ballclub | 33 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

_Caino - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:01 PM EST (#16795) #

Hey, atleast you have a gold glove calibre 2nd baseman.

AAAAhahahaha AAAAAAAAAAAhahahah. Uh hum. Just kidding.

_Tyler - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:11 PM EST (#16796) #

Since he earned a mention here, I thought I'd pass along that Jose Guillen has become the newest member of the Nationals. They gave up Juan Rivera in order to get him along with an unnamed prospect. This looks like a pretty good deal to me for the Angels; it seems the Expos will again get more expensive without getting significantly better. Not to mention, they get the added joy of dealing with Jose Guillen.

_Nolan - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:23 PM EST (#16797) #

I wonder if JP would consider taking Klesko off Padres hands?

The Padres are desparate to get rid of him and might be desparate enough to take a couple of our bad contracts to do it...

What about Klesko, Burroughs (and Xavier Nady) for Hinske, Lightenberg/Batista and a good prospect (Peterson or Gross?)...

Probably no chance of something like this happening, but the Padres might be desparate enough...

_Cory - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 05:41 PM EST (#16798) #

Especially after the rumour that the prospect is Izturis, the next great defensive gem.

_Rob - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 05:51 PM EST (#16799) #

I thought those players would add up to 300 million or more, but the total salary for this team (if you pro-rated the numbers to a team of 25) would be $214,820,924. Won't the Yankees be spending that much next year?

_6-4-3 - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 06:25 PM EST (#16800) #

According to Dugout Dollars, the Yankees will spend $204 million next year, including luxury tax. This includes Contreras, so if you take off his 11 million salary (with tax), they're spending $193 million dollars on 18 players, plus whoever they get to fill out the roster.

_DaveInNYC - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 07:41 PM EST (#16801) #

What? Jose Guillen isn't significantly better than Juan Rivera? Sure they might give up Izturis, but with Guzman signed, where would the play him?

I think this move, on the field, makes the Expos/Nationals A LOT better.

_Tyler - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 08:16 PM EST (#16802) #

I don't see how you can figure it makes them A LOT better. Rivera hit .307/.364/.465 last year, with splits of .276/.785 against lefties and .328/.858 against righties. Jose Guillen hit .294/.352/.497 with splits of .299/.839 against lefties and .292/.852 against righties. Bit of a power edge for Guillen, and less of a platoon split but fairly similar numbers.

Rivera is cheaper, younger and more likely to improve-he's well ahead of the point Guillen was at at the same age. Guillen has a bad track record too; it wasn't just the event at the end of year with him, there were situations throughout the year.

I don't know them well enough defensively to really say much about it, but we're talking about a LF in Guillen; it's not a key defensive position.

I honestly think Washington got hosed on this deal-they made themselves more expensive and deprived themselves of upside. How do they win this deal?

_Ryan Lind - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 08:18 PM EST (#16803) #

I don't think that Jose Guillen is "significantly" better than Rivera. Guillen may be a bigger name, but look at their numbers from last year:

(avg/obp/slg)

Rivera: .307/.364/.465
Guillen: .294/.352/.497

How about career?

Rivera: .289/.339/.450
Guillen: .274/.322/.443

If you prefer...

Last year OPS+

Rivera: 118
Guillen: 119

Career OPS+

Rivera: 108
Guillen: 96

Now I realize that Guillen has had way more plate appearances, but that's why rate stats were invented, right?

I mean, if Guillen is indeed better than Rivera, it's hardly all that significant. And I don't think it's worth the extra 3mil considering Rivera is younger AND isn't known for being a horrible teammate.

_DaveInNYC - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:31 PM EST (#16804) #

Jose Guillen is a very good defender with an excellent arm who can play both left and right field. Whose to say that his best years aren't in front of him? He's only 28, Rivera is 26, so I'd say that Washington does have some upside in this deal.

And that's another misconception, that Jose Guillen is known to be a "horrible teammate." His teammates, for the most part, loved him last season... He was always willing to play through pain, he just expected to be rewarded for that and he wanted to be treated like say, Vlad Guererro. He wasn't, he's always had a problem with authority, that's his problem. He has a bad attitude when it comes to coaches and management.

And as far as the money goes, yeesh, who cares? Maybe the Expos are willing to take a chance on him, maybe they've decided to FINALLY open up their purse so to speak. Not every team is going to be like the Jays or A's when it comes to spending money on certain players. I don't see Jose Guillen as a bad investment for the money he's getting paid.

_Ryan Lind - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:11 PM EST (#16805) #

When a guy throws a temper tantrum due to being yanked in favour of a pinch runner -- yeah, I call that being a bad teammate.

And yeah, who cares about money. It's not like player salaries actually matter in the MLB. o_O.

As for him being an excellent defender: He plays left field. He can't possibly have that much defensive value.

_6-4-3 - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:23 PM EST (#16806) #

As for him being an excellent defender: He plays left field. He can't possibly have that much defensive value.

It wasn't until last year that Guillen regularly played left field. Even though last year, he played 135 games in left (with 10 games DHing and 4 in right), his career split is 661 games in right, and 173 games in left. Given a choice between Vlad and Guillen in right, any team would pick Vlad, but that doesn't mean that Guillen has very little defensive value.

_Tyler - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:56 PM EST (#16807) #

When a guy calls out his pitchers after a game for not defending him, I'd be willing to guess that at least the pitchers don't like him.

_DaveInNYC - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:08 AM EST (#16808) #

And yeah, who cares about money. It's not like player salaries actually matter in the MLB. o_O.

Okay, of course salaries really matter. But not to the extent that some of you on here make it seem. Some of you make it seem like player salaries are the only thing that matter. Not every team is as stingy as the Jays are with their money. Of course the Expos have a rep for being stingy, but God bless them for actually opening up their wallet for a good player.

And Jose Guillen, again, is a great defender with a terrific arm. He's a right fielder that was playing left because of course they aren't going to move Vlad to left.

Again, are player salaries THAT important that they have to factor in to almost everything?

_DaveInNYC - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:14 AM EST (#16809) #

Also, why should you the fan care about the money part of the game THAT much? Is it your money that owners are throwing around? No. If an athlete/baseball player can get a great contract for himself, whose fault is that? More power to him, I think. Are you jealous that a guy could be "so bad and make so much money?" I dislike how certain players names get tainted because they are seen as "overpaid and useless." IMO it's wrong.

_Tyler - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:25 AM EST (#16810) #

They are nowhere near winning. Their team lost 95 games last year. Many people, myself included, followed the team while they were in Montreal and probably still feel a sense of attachment to the team. It's stupid of them to spend their money on this. What's wrong with making that point when discussing the trade?

_Ryan Lind - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:30 AM EST (#16811) #

Don't say "some people" when you are referring to me.

DaveInNYC: "Again, are player salaries THAT important that they have to factor in to almost everything?"

Uh, yeah, they are.

DaveInNYC: "Also, why should you the fan care about the money part of the game THAT much? Is it your money that owners are throwing around? No. If an athlete/baseball player can get a great contract for himself, whose fault is that? More power to him, I think. Are you jealous that a guy could be "so bad and make so much money?" I dislike how certain players names get tainted because they are seen as "overpaid and useless." IMO it's wrong."

What in the wide world of sports are you even talking about? This has absolutely no connection what so ever to the discussion at hand. Am I mad that Guillen gets a lot of money? No. Am I upset that the Expos are spending money? No. Did I call anyone "overpaid and useless?" Nope, I didn't. In fact, I did not say or imply any of the crap that you just spewed right here. I was just evaluating the trade.

Please do me a big favour here:

Stop pulling things out of your ass and sticking them in my mouth. They don't taste good.

I was just evaluating the trade between the Nationals and the Angels. When you're evaluating a trade, unless it's in fantasy baseball, you have to factor in how much each player makes in order for it to be a fair analysis. Because it is important.

_DaveInNYC - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:40 AM EST (#16812) #

Uh oh, somebody feels the need to be a tough guy in the world of cyber space by talking big and tough. I'll just stop right now before things get hectic.

IMO, this trade isn't as lopsided as people are making it seem. Jose Guillen is a very good player, Juan Rivera is not YET. He could turn out to be, but so could Jose Guillen, Guillen's only 28. The wild card in this, Izturis, is striclty a gloveman who's been an average hitter in the minors. Now, sure you might have your views on Guillen, but the guy can flat out play... better than Rivera/Izturis can. And with Guzman being signed, the Nationals really don't need another gloveman with no pop anytime soon. If you have a problem with the deal, it should be that they didn't get enough for Izturis, if you think his value is that high in the first place. It shouldn't be that the Nationals are spending a little bit of extra cash on Jose Guillen. I'd rather that than spending it on Vinny Castilla and Cristian Guzman, atleast this makes some kind of sense.

_DaveInNYC - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:42 AM EST (#16813) #

Can ya tell that I'm a big fan of Jose Guillen? :)

_Ryan Lind - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:18 AM EST (#16814) #

I'm being a "big tough guy?" Where did that come from? Did I threaten you? I simply asked you to stop putting words in my mouth. And I don't know who is making the deal seem "lopsided." Certainly not me.

Bleh, you're not even listening to me. Forget about it.

Joe - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:42 AM EST (#16815) #

http://me.woot.net

_Justin - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 02:02 AM EST (#16816) #

Isn't Guillen only making 3 million? I dont think thats a lot of money for someone who hit almost 30 homers last year. One more thing, Guillen is only signed through next year so instead of having Rivera locked up for a few years cheaply, they stand the chance of loosing Guillen after this year.

_Nolan - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 02:29 AM EST (#16817) #

I believe Guillen's contract has a third year option...whether its a team or player option I'm not sure, but I think its a team option

_Brad - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 09:50 AM EST (#16818) #

From AngelsLand: I am quite happy with the Guillen trade. Not that Jose wasn't a great asset to the team most of the year. He played hurt more than any Angel in my memory and say what you will about left field, his throws were a thing of beauty to watch.
The most important thing from my standpoint about this trade is that he was not going to play for the Scoscia/Stoneman Angels after his repeated challenges of the management and they got more in return for a player with a reputation that I expected. Signing a true CF is a top priority and Rivera gives the team a much needed 4th OF. (Plus several good infielders coming up in the Halos' system but none ready for 2005 so Izturis is a perfect fit, especially with Kennedy coming off an injury and Eckstein a questionable big league SS).

_Jacko - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 11:06 AM EST (#16819) #

Signing a true CF is a top priority and Rivera gives the team a much needed 4th OF. (Plus several good infielders coming up in the Halos' system but none ready for 2005 so Izturis is a perfect fit, especially with Kennedy coming off an injury and Eckstein a questionable big league SS).

Yikes, why not just shift Erstad back to CF and play Kotchman at 1B? The guy only hit about .370 in the PCL last year.

_DaveInNYC - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:04 PM EST (#16820) #

Ryan, my apologies for my words last night, they were uncalled for.

I only got riled up because I think Guillen is VERY underappreciated. And when people start bringing up his 3 mil salary as a reason why the Angels won the deal, I don't get it. 3 million for a player his caliber isn't a steep price to pay. Now, if he were making 7 million or something, it would be an absolute steal for the Nationals. Guillen plays great defense, is a very good hitter with good power numbers, and he plays hurt I don't think you could ask for much more for 3 million.

Plus, with the fact that Rivera is going to be a 4th outfielder in Anaheim, I don't think the Angels won this deal.

But again, Ryan, my apologies on a situation that got out of hand mostly because of my words. Sorry.

_Greg - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:23 PM EST (#16821) #

It seems to me that salaries are a tough thing to consider in trades or free agent signings

A player's value is fluid. Like say, Joe Smith. He isn't worth a set amount, of 5 million. He's worth 3 million to Toronto, and worth 6 million to the Cubs and 8 million to the Yankees. That's what decides where guys go, not really so much based on how much money a team has to spend, though that plays an indirect role, but how much value that guy has for a particular franchise.

I don't know if it really applies here very much....just in a lot of the threads I've been reading, guys are refered to as "not 3.5 million dollar players" and perhaps they are not worth that to certain teams, but different teams get a different value from a player depending on their market.

Now 4 million plus to Vizquel into his 40s doesn't seem like a good deal no matter what club you are, but I just thought it might be something to keep in mind for evaluating future signings.

_Sean - TBG - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:31 PM EST (#16822) #

http://www.torontobaseballguys.com
Hi Jacko, I agree that Erstad should move back to CF so the Angels will get some value out of his main skill, his defense. And its not because I have Kotchman in a keeper league somewhere :)

Does anyone else think the Angels will make a run at Delgado?

_DaveInNYC - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:35 PM EST (#16823) #

Good post Greg, I agree completely.

As far as Delgado goes. Moreno has shown he's willing to spend the money so the money won't be an issue. It's how highly they think of Kotchman which will be the deciding factor.

_Sean - TBG - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:25 PM EST (#16824) #

http://www.torontobaseballguys.com
Maybe they could trade Kotchman to us... although he's got the Nick Johnson wrist-injury thing, which could be trouble.

_Brad - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 10:47 PM EST (#16825) #

Erstad will not be a center fielder with the Angels again. His defense at 1B is at least as good as his defense in CF and his body is prone to injuries that makes playing OF too risky. 1B does not have to be a power position if a team produces elsewhere in the lineup. The Angels believe McPherson will do that at 3B but they MUST pick up run producers for CF and DH. Kotchman is not ready to be an everyday offensive player quite yet and with several 1b/DH types coming up through the ranks, they may choose to trade him while his stock is high.
As of this moment, Beltran, Piazza, Garciaparra, Radke and Pavano top Moreno's wish list.

_Mick - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 02:06 AM EST (#16826) #

Saturday's Fort Wort Star-Telegram reported the Mets were close to dealing Piazza to the Angels straight up for Jose Guillen ... guess that's not happening. (Shame on the FWST wire editors who had that in the baseball roundup while the Guillen-to-Washington deal is in the agate type Transactions!)

_Jabonoso - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 11:11 AM EST (#16827) #

According to LA press Moreno's wish list is: Pedro, Garciaparra, Beltran, Delgado ( i guess he will settle with one of this)and another SP ( LH if possible ).

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