Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
The final cuts have been made and the roster for your Opening Day 2005 Blue Jays is set. The big decisions for the last day were: Greg Myers is the second catcher; Kerry Ligtenberg is cut; and Justin Miller will be sent to AAA if he clears waivers.

The roster is:

C: Zaun, Myers
1B: Hinske
2B: Hudson
SS: Adams, McDonald
3B: Koskie, Menechino
DH: Hillenbrand
LF: Catalanotto, Johnson
CF: Wells
RF: Rios, Gross

14 position players

SP: Halladay; Chacin; Towers; Bush
RP: Batista; Frasor; Speier; Schoeneweis; Chulk; Walker; League

11 pitchers

DL: Lilly


Anyone have anything to say about this roster? Nope? I thought not.
The Last Cut is the Deepest | 117 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Joel - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 04:29 PM EST (#108376) #
I feel badly for Ligtenberg, but he never performed.

Will the Jays manage a four man rotation until Lilly is healthy? Miller could have been a fifth guy.
Jdog - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 04:30 PM EST (#108377) #
So anyone know what the plan would be for when Lilly is activated from the DL. Are they going to send down a pitcher or position player.
Gerry - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 04:31 PM EST (#108378) #
The Bone made an astute observation in todays daily thread. Ligtenberg has allowed eight hits, four of them home runs. In spring training Ligtenberg has been pitching later in games, facing the weaker lineups that play in the back half of the games. If he has conceded four home runs to those hitters, maybe his stuff is not there any more. Ligtenberg and Chulk were competing for the same spot, Chulk throws harder and that might have been the difference in the end.
Pistol - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 04:32 PM EST (#108379) #
There's not a need for a 5th starter immediately. Lilly will slide into that spot when he's ready (the 11th of April sticks in my mind).

The roster looks like what was expected. The real decision comes when Lilly comes off the DL.
david wang - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 04:37 PM EST (#108380) #
Pete Walker can start if they need him too.
Sister - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 04:38 PM EST (#108381) #
Eeek! Overall, that is quite an unimpressive roster when put into context (i.e. the reality of opening day upon us). I can't say that I have much faith in the starting staff given Lilly's status.
Jdog - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 04:42 PM EST (#108383) #
Yeah your right without Lilly you basically got one great starter in Halladay and a what i think very fine starter in Bush . Towers and Chacin are definitely below average. Here's hoping Chacin puts it all together.
Mick Doherty - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 04:43 PM EST (#108384) #
Can we instigate a Solemn Bauxite Pledge (SBP, pronounced So-Bap) in which, should Ligtenberg sign with some team and throw together 85 appearances and a 1.65 ERA, nobody will complain and, via revisionist history, say "I always though he was a good acquisition. Ricciardi needs to be more patient!"

I personally do so solemnly vow.
Gitz - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 04:46 PM EST (#108385) #
What's Ligtenberg making this year?
Sister - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 04:52 PM EST (#108386) #
A lot for a guy getting cut!

Which again raises the issue of JP's use of the new budget. I know its a truck-load of money, but I really hate seeing the once so-very-precious millions go flying out the door in the name of Koch and Lighterfluid.
Joel - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 04:55 PM EST (#108387) #
I seem to recall J.P. being on record that although he would prefer not to cut guys in this way, the extra money Ted has given him far exceeds what is lost on Koch and Ligtenberg, so if it is best for the team, off they go.
kpataky - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 04:56 PM EST (#108388) #
How about the rosters of the Skychiefs, Fisher Cats, and Dunedin Jays? Anyone hear about other cuts in the Minors??
earlweaverfan - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 05:05 PM EST (#108390) #
How much money Ligtenburg is getting paid is irrelevant and immaterial, as Perry Mason used to say. (He also used to say incompetent, but that was just the lawyer coming out in him).

This money was committed to KL, whether he was a star, a bum, a no-show, injured, or in any other condition. In other words, the $2MM is a sunk cost, as my economics professor used to say, and should be ignored in any subsequent decision, like whether he should make the roster.

If his place is taken by someone who will get the major league minimum, and would not have, otherwise, that minimum is the cost of the bye-bye decision - no more, no less.

(Of course, as another of my professors used to admit, "psychologically, there is no such thing as a sunk cost", and that is why this issue causes so much heartburn to so many people.)
Gitz - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 05:12 PM EST (#108393) #
Erm, I was merely curious, not hoping for tangential Perry Mason references!
Chuck - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 05:19 PM EST (#108396) #
What is this site if not carte blanche for tangential references? ;)
Thaskins - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 05:30 PM EST (#108400) #
Well said earlweaverfan. Clearly I hate to see all the cash we gave Ligtenburg go down the drain. But, Id rather have it go down the drain with him blowing up the ERA of another team than for the Blue Jays. I hate when teams make decision based solely on ST stats (see Gross, Gabe) but it looks like its become pretty clear that the hip condition Ligtenberg has developed has really hurt his ability to pitch. Chulk is a pretty solid reliever and he should be given a shot in the bullpen.

I dont think we can blame JP for this move. Before last year, Ligtenberg was a pretty darn good reliever. I thought the deal for him was a little pricey but all and all pretty fair. This may not be fair but if were going to point a finger at anyone it probably has to be at our medical staff for missing the hip condition. Though I admit, that is a bit of a stretch.
Rob - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 05:34 PM EST (#108402) #
I also solemnly vow not to complain if Kerry Ligtenberg pitches well for another team in this upcoming MLB season, under the rules set out by the K.L. SBP (2005, Doherty).
sweat - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 05:41 PM EST (#108405) #
On the bright side, the Jays could still make lighterfluids salary pay for itslef, provided he signs with an AL team.
Might bring the teams overall average up.
Donkit R.K. - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 05:49 PM EST (#108408) #
I will take that vow...
In a perfect world, when Lilly come back Chulk or Walker is sent down, the Jays stick with 11 pitchers, and either the F-Cat or (preferably) Hillenbrand is moved and Gross and Rios can man the OF corners with Sparky the back up to all three outfield positions as a wonderful 4th OF. Cat or Hillenbrand, whoever doesn't get moved, plays DH. Hell, if Hinske will fetch more than either of them (none of them will fetch much of anything, so it is possible...) then The Cat could play DH and Hillenbrand 1B.
Ron - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 05:51 PM EST (#108410) #
Im going to go on the record here and say cutting Ligtenberg at this time makes very little sense.

Ron puts on his GM cap now.......

I personally keep Ligtenberg on the roster right now and send League down to AAA. I'm not a economics majors so I won't be talking about sunk costs or anything like that. I've/Ted Rogers has invested a lot of money in Kerry (I wish I had 2.5 mil to throw away.....) and I want to hope for some kind of return. Either Kerry pitches well and stays with the Jays or he gets flipped ala Adams in a trade. Or the worst case scenario is releasing him during the season just like what the Jays did with Hentgen. There's no harm in finding out what Ligtenberg can do. I know some will bring up his ST performance in terms of HR's allowed but when did we ever put a lot stock in ST? I might as well say V-Dub has only hit 1HR in ST and is coming off a season where he suffered an injury, yet I'm not too concerned. Both players have a track record of good performance. Keeping Ligtenberg would most likely only effect League being sent down to AAA. Anybody that says League has nothing to prove in the minors (I believe JP or Gibby said this) is only kidding themselves. He hasn't even pitched one inning in AAA yet. Going from AA batters to Major league batters is a huge step.

JP has now released 2 relivers with guaranteed contracts totalling 3.5 million dollars in the past three weeks.

Given JP's track record with relievers I get nervous whenever he puts his fingers in the bullpen cookie jar.
CaramonLS - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 06:00 PM EST (#108412) #
I'm really happy for Walker, heres hoping Pete really puts it together this season (and future seasons) and can end his career on a high note.

Always nice when you see someone finally put it all together this late in the game.
Named For Hank - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 06:03 PM EST (#108413) #
Come on, I can't believe that the team are stupid: Kerry Ligtenberg melted down last year because of a condition that you don't usually recover from. The Jays observed him in Spring Training, directly -- they didn't pour over the stats and count the home runs and make the decision that way.

From watching him pitch, which very few of us got to do this spring, the Jays have decided that he's not their man this year. Arguing "but he was good in the past" is really not a sensible or defensible position.

Extreme example:

Let's say Mister A is a great pitcher. He's involved in an unfortunate accident and loses his arm. Should Mister A's baseball team keep him on the roster because he was good in the past and because they've already paid for him?

greenfrog - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 06:10 PM EST (#108415) #
Interesting roster. A lot of guys with minimal major-league experience: Chacin, League, Gross, Rios, Adams, Chulk, Bush. And guys with something to prove: Hinske, Towers, Frasor, SS, Walker--even Halladay.

Also conspicuous is the lack of high-OPS guys and (as noted already) the lack of depth in the rotation.

Definitely still a work in progress. I'm excited though.
Ron - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 06:20 PM EST (#108417) #
Well having a bad hip and losing an arm (assuming you're talking about a persons throwing arm) when we're talking about a pitcher is not apples and oranges.

I just wonder why didn't the Jays cut Ligtenberg earlier if they didn't like his ST performance or were worried about his hip.

Either way this doesn't look good on JP's resume.
Named For Hank - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 06:37 PM EST (#108418) #
I just wonder why didn't the Jays cut Ligtenberg earlier if they didn't like his ST performance or were worried about his hip.

Either way this doesn't look good on JP's resume.

Okay, so they should give him a shot during the regular season or they should have cut him on the first day of Spring Training, but not checked him out during all of Spring Training to see if he'd improve?

That's probably the silliest thing I've heard all month.

Ron - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 06:46 PM EST (#108419) #
<i>Okay, so they should give him a shot during the regular season or they should have cut him on the first day of Spring Training, but not checked him out during all of Spring Training to see if he'd improve?

That's probably the silliest thing I've heard all month.<i>

I never implied he should have been cut from day 1. They could have released him a few days ago if they didn't see any improvement in his health or performance.

But this is getting away from my main point, which is that I felt Ligtenberg should have started with the Jays.

It's all water under the bridge now, Ligtenbergs gone and the season is about to start.
Ryan01 - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 06:49 PM EST (#108420) #
And the difference between releasing him a couple days ago and today is???
Stellers Jay - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 06:52 PM EST (#108422) #
My 2 cents:

I'm not sure what documentation (presumably some sort of doctor's report) you need to place a player on the 15 Day DL. Given his hip condition, I would think it would have been possible to place Ligtenberg on the DL for the first month and make sure the bullpen is shaping up the way they had hoped and also considering the latest development with Lilly today. Walker could be needed in the rotation by the 10th or 12th of April. Who gets the call from Syracuse? I guess Miller, but it's not certain he makes it through waivers in the next 48 hours. To me it makes more sense to keep Kerry on the disabled list for the first couple of weeks to a month as an insurance policy, since we are paying him anyways. If Lilly comes back strong and everyone in the pen is pitching well by the end of april then send Ligtenberg packing. (of course this is all assuming the proper case can be made and documented to put Kerry on the DL in the first place, which I'm not sure of)
Ron - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 06:53 PM EST (#108423) #
And the difference between releasing him a couple days ago and today is??? To not make Ligtenberg sweat it out until the last moment to find out if he was going to make the team or not. They didn't let Koch finish ST, and I don't see why the Jays couldn't do the same with Kerry if they knew ahead of time it was unlikely he would be with the club.
Magpie - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 06:55 PM EST (#108424) #
Can we instigate a Solemn Bauxite Pledge

I'm not inclined to take the pleadge on the grounds that I would have kept Ligtenberg and sent League to AAA. Mainly because I want League at AAA finding out if he can develop into a starter.

But on the other hand, it's just not a big enough deal to complain about, even if Ligtenberg finds a way to be effective somewhere else.

jgadfly - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 06:58 PM EST (#108425) #
RE: Lightenberg...Walker replaces KL on 40 man roster...Myers becomes # 40...and if Miller is claimed on waivers JP goes fishing among the castoffs for someone with more upside for immediate team needs
Jim - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 07:07 PM EST (#108427) #
Can I say it now? They should have let him start the season. If he's terrible then you release him, but it's not like it was a roster crunch and they didn't have players who they could option out like League.
Braby21 - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 07:20 PM EST (#108428) #
More bad news re: Lilly...

Mar 31 As scheduled, Lilly took the mound in minor league game on Thursday, as he continues to recover from tendinitis in his pitching shoulder. He didn't last long, however, throwing just six pitches before taking a liner off his ankle. Precautionary X-rays were negative, and the Blue Jays have listed the lefthander as day-to-day. He will be re-evaluated on Friday.
Mylegacy - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 07:20 PM EST (#108429) #
Well, Spring has produced two suprises; Babe Gross and Pete (Lights Out) Walker.

Gabe may become the guy we hoped he might be AND you gotta admit, it's great to see Walker turn into a Prince not a Frog.
BCMike - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 07:23 PM EST (#108430) #

More bad news re: Lilly...

Atleast it's not his arm

Scott Levy - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 08:06 PM EST (#108432) #
Ricciardi just released Ligtenberg (2.5 mil) and Koch ($900,000) before spring training. That's 3.4 million of money that was thrown into a gutter. Can someone tell me when something like this can be viewed as a reasonably big deal? That's 7% of the total payroll spent on two players that were released. Then factor 3.85 million on Hillenbrand, who is currently blocking Gross, and that's 15% of the team budget right there. Add Schoeneweis, and that's 20% of the team budget.

This all adds up, people.
Dave501 - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 08:12 PM EST (#108433) #
Not to mention Hisnke's salary, but i digress.

What is of more concern to me then Lightenburg, is Justin Miller. I think a team like Tampa Bay could definately pick him up. He has the potential to be a very good pitcher, as he was a times last year (has everyone forgotten??). I cant believe their dumping him in favour of Pete Walker. JP talked about having a soft spot for Walker - I wonder if JP has ever heard, as i'm sure one of your professors may have talked about, the halo effect. Then again, maybe i'm experiencing the halo effect with miller. i guess time will tell who's right, me JP, both, or neither. I'm hoping both.
Wildrose - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 08:15 PM EST (#108435) #
I think folks need to remember that assesments about players don't only take place during a game. Ligtenburg would have done plenty of throwing on the side during the entire spring training. I'm sure the team saw some pretty poor results and acted accordingly.

When he was signed I was happy about this deal, he was coming off a good season and he was signed for what was the going market rate,( I think the second guaranteed year may have been the cost of doing business in Toronto).

In retrospect, it was odd that the Orioles didn't seem to pursue him very actively. They had the need, resources, and the "home" team advantage in trying to re-sign him. Perhaps this should have been a warning sign about his health.

At any rate this is the cost of doing business when signing relievers, they seem to have such a great variability year to year in performance, better to develop several of your own cheap options from within, much like those Twinkies ( or trade for a young arm who may be better suited for the pen).
Dave501 - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 08:27 PM EST (#108436) #
Sorry, Wildrose, your a little off the mark there.
I dont think lightenbourg was signed at the going rate, as evidenced by the fact that the orioles declined an option on him for about $1.2M (give or take a 100K). So, the orioles, who dont have a great bullpen, wouldn't sign lightenbourg for 1.2 over one year, then the jays go and sing him for 4.2, or 4.4 or whatever crazy number it was. that was a very perculiar transaction for the jays.
Ryan C - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 08:40 PM EST (#108437) #
This all adds up, people.

Yeah and it now adds up to alot less now the payroll has been increased. Let's assume for a second that the Jays are correct in their assessment and that Ligtenberg and Koch would not help the team this year. You either keep them on the roster (that's two bullpen spots), and use them in games and they probably blow at least a couple of games each for the team, before eventually dumping them anyway OR you cut your losses now. Sicne their salary is going to be paid no matter what you do, I prefer to cut my losses and give a shot to a guy I think will be better like Chulk for instance.

As for Gross being blocked by Hillenbrand, how do you block a guy who is already on the team? That's a new one. Ive said all along that Gross will get his at bats because injuries will happen, it's inevitable. You cant plan the season with a lineup of 9 guys because invariably one or more of them are not going to be around all year. Lilly is currently on the DL which puts Gross on the team, when Lilly comes back (or possibly before) someone else is going to get hurt and Gross will be back again.

DaveInNYC - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 08:40 PM EST (#108438) #
"In retrospect, it was odd that the Orioles didn't seem to pursue him very actively. They had the need, resources, and the "home" team advantage in trying to re-sign him. Perhaps this should have been a warning sign about his health."

No offense to you, but the O's organization wouldn't know pitching if it bit them in the ass. Their pitching has been awful for years, it's the only thing holding them back yet they still never do anything to address it. Not only that, but they just recently traded away a talented YOUNG LEFTY in Matt Riley for a clone of their current outfielder Luis Matos in the form of Ramon Nivar.

I thought it was a good move by the Jays, but they just got a little unlucky. Ligtenberg had a solid career prior to joining the Jays, but the injury has slowed him down considerably. Considering all this I applaud JP for this move. There's no way Kerry should have made this team. He's been a wreck for a while now, and there just isn't room for him.
Ryan C - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 08:46 PM EST (#108439) #
And Schoeneweiss, Come on. The season hasnt even started yet and you're including him on some list of terrible mistakes and sunk costs. Rogers has commited to upping the payroll already, can we please stop crying over pennies. With the new budget I cant believe that the few extra dollars they may have given Scott is going to prevent them from acquiring someone they want next year.
6-4-3 - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 08:48 PM EST (#108440) #
Ok, but let's look at the free agent relievers before we decide if it was going rate or not. So, here's the relievers who made Ligtenberg-esque money (care of All-baseball's Transaction Guy)

Two years, $3.3 million to Tom Martin.

One year, $2.5M, with a $2.75M option for 05 against a $250K buyout to Mike Timlin.

One year, $1.5M with incentive bonuses, for LHP Wilson Alvarez

Two years, around 5 million for Ricardo Rincon (unknown $ value)

One year, $1.75M with team option for 2005 ($1.75M vs. $100 K buyout) for RHP Rod Beck.

Two years, $5M with team option for 2006 (with vesting clauses) for RHP Scott Sullivan.

Two years, $5.5M, with performance incentives for RHP Tim Worrell.

Two years, $4.5M for RHP Kerry Ligtenberg.

Two years, $5.975M with team option for 2006 ($3.1M vs. $325K buyout) with auto-vesting clause for RHP Shigetoshi Hasegawa.

One year, $1.7M for LHP Steve Kline.

Two years, $6.8M for RHP Paul Quantrill.

Two years, $3.6M for LHP Felix Heredia.

Given his fantastic (pre-2004) record, was the money out of line?
Lefty - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 08:53 PM EST (#108441) #
I will not make such a pledge. In my view the guy is still a serviceable reliever. Put me in Jim's camp. I do not agree that the cost to this move is $300,000 in terms of cost. Yes, his 2.5 or whatever it is could be described as sunk cost. But this is like putting gasoline on a pile of dough and flicking your Bic.

As Jim more or less says above, this decision could have been made later, perhaps the end of April, maybe Ligtenburg could have been sent out on a 20 day re-hab assignment.

For the life of me I can not understand some of the decisions that have been made or un-made this spring. At some point management has to be held to account as well.
Ron - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 08:56 PM EST (#108442) #
"For the life of me I can not understand some of the decisions that have been made or un-made this spring. At some point management has to be held to account as well. "

And that's what exactly some of us are doing in this thread :)

King Ryan - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 08:59 PM EST (#108443) #
Mick Doherty said: "Can we instigate a Solemn Bauxite Pledge (SBP, pronounced So-Bap) in which, should Ligtenberg sign with some team and throw together 85 appearances and a 1.65 ERA, nobody will complain and, via revisionist history, say "I always though he was a good acquisition. Ricciardi needs to be more patient!" "

No. I always thought he would have a good second year. I hate this move. Hate it. I will admit to being wrong if he has another horrible year, but if he signs with some team and has an ERA of 2.59 like I know he will, I will complain all I goddamn want.

I'm glad Gross will get a shot though. He basically has until Lilly returns to prove himself, which I'm fine with.

6-4-3 - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:03 PM EST (#108444) #
But using the analogy above, the money was already on fire. The Jays are just hosing it down and putting it in a garbage bag, instead of waiting for the fire to burn out and seeing how many $20s are left.

The question really isn't how servicable Kerry is at this point, it's if he's better than Chulk. The Jays decided that he wasn't and cut him. Given the choice of using Chulk, or handling Ligtenberg with the kid gloves, I'm not sure that this was a bad idea.
Wildrose - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:10 PM EST (#108446) #
Thanks 6-4-3 for digging up the numbers re: 2004 free agent signings and how Ligtenburg did sign for relative market value. I'd add his former team mate Mike Remlinger at 2 years/ 7.3 million and Hasegawa at 3 years / 8.5 million to that list.

Still the declined 1.2 million option the Orioles did not exercise should have been a huge warning sign, like Dave said, most people viewed this as just another in the long litany of Oriole mistakes, this time they may have had good cause.
Mike Green - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:15 PM EST (#108448) #
I'll take the pledge, even though I have no opinion on whether Chulk or Ligtenberg will be better this year. I am satisfied that the organization took an honest look at the two, and simply decided that Chulk was right now a better pitcher. The organization, rightfully in my view, did not worry about covering its behind.

It has been a good spring. My only concern was the early decision to move Batista to the bullpen and move Chacin to the rotation from the beginning of the season. But that's done, and Gustavo gets his chance to sink or swim. I wish him well.
Scott Levy - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:22 PM EST (#108450) #
<i>Yeah and it now adds up to alot less now the payroll has been increased. Let's assume for a second that the Jays are correct in their assessment and that Ligtenberg and Koch would not help the team this year. You either keep them on the roster (that's two bullpen spots), and use them in games and they probably blow at least a couple of games each for the team, before eventually dumping them anyway OR you cut your losses now. Sicne their salary is going to be paid no matter what you do, I prefer to cut my losses and give a shot to a guy I think will be better like Chulk for instance. </i>

Hinske is going to cost us games with his bat, if his last two seasons have any meaning, so let's dump his salary. Sure, it's 13 million over 3 years, but JP has money to spend now, right? If Batista can't start, and doesn't have sufficient control as a reliever, let's cut the 9.5 million remaining on his deal too. Remember, the Jays have money to spend now!

I can't believe people are defending this. So because JP has money to spend, he's going to be cut some slack for flushing 3.4 mil down the toilet? Come on. He should be held accountable for making bad decisions.

33% of 2005's payroll will go towards Hinske, Batista, Schoeneweis, Ligtenberg, and Hillenbrand. But it's OK, the team has money to spend.


<i>As for Gross being blocked by Hillenbrand, how do you block a guy who is already on the team? That's a new one. Ive said all along that Gross will get his at bats because injuries will happen, it's inevitable. You cant plan the season with a lineup of 9 guys because invariably one or more of them are not going to be around all year. Lilly is currently on the DL which puts Gross on the team, when Lilly comes back (or possibly before) someone else is going to get hurt and Gross will be back again. </i>

Well, to be more accurate, the Hillenbrand acquisition is making the team platoon Gross and Rios for two weeks. Two players the team wants to succeed heading into their contending years. Injuries happening is no excuse. Gross spent 1.5 years in AAA and produced. He had nothing left to prove. Grab a guy like Mottola to be insurance, or Crozier, or Hattig. Don't spend 3.85 million on a player who could realistically get outproduced by a player making the minimum who is already on your team.

And yes, Schoeneweis is a bad signing. Unless you want to ignore history. One decent season as a reliever two years ago, and he's worth 5.25 million?

I hope the extra cash from here on out is used better.
Lefty - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:22 PM EST (#108451) #
Hey 6-4-3, I like your analogy much better. And maybe thats what they should have done, taken the time to see how many $20's were left.
kpataky - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:24 PM EST (#108452) #
kpataky - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:27 PM EST (#108454) #
Just got updated from Cameron Reimers he made the Skychiefs squad - I wonder what the Minor League Rosters look like. Anyone know yet?
King Ryan - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:28 PM EST (#108455) #
Yes.

Having money to spend is only good if you spend it responsibly. Blue Jay fans should know that by now.

Lefty - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:29 PM EST (#108457) #
Not having chimed in on the other cut yet ... I certainly hope that Miller clears waivers. I've never been sold on Walker and thats the guy Miller was competing with.

A few years ago I remember Walker having a pretty good spring and early season then melting down. I thought his signing was akin to taking a flyer on a guy. I hope this works out better this time, but I don't know.

If Bush or Chacin flame out and need to return to AAA to save them, I have alot more confidence in Miller as a stop gap. Again, heres hoping Miller clears.
Lefty - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:29 PM EST (#108458) #
Not having chimed in on the other cut yet ... I certainly hope that Miller clears waivers. I've never been sold on Walker and thats the guy Miller was competing with.

A few years ago I remember Walker having a pretty good spring and early season then melting down. I thought his signing was akin to taking a flyer on a guy. I hope this works out better this time, but I don't know.

If Bush or Chacin flame out and need to return to AAA to save them, I have alot more confidence in Miller as a stop gap. Again, heres hoping Miller clears.
Ryan C - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:29 PM EST (#108459) #
I can't believe people are defending this. So because JP has money to spend, he's going to be cut some slack for flushing 3.4 mil down the toilet? Come on. He should be held accountable for making bad decisions.

That money was down the toilet whether they were cut or whether they weren't. The only question worth asking at this point (IMHO) is whether Ligtenberg makes the team better than Chulk. You would prefer they keep the worse player on the roster just because they're paying him anyway?

Lefty - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:39 PM EST (#108461) #
Its not my comment your reponding too, but I think what the move naysayers are saying is that perhaps they could have been more creative in making their play.

You choose to illustrate your point by choosing Chulk. What about sending Kerry out for April? Or as Magpie suggests giving League an opprtunity to prove himself in AAA. Could Walker have cleared waivers and been instant insurance in case of any of the young pitchers or Ligtenburg flame out?

It doesn't necessarily have to be as simple as you boil it done to be in your paragraph.
Rich - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:39 PM EST (#108462) #
It boggles my mind that any Jays fan who watched the Ash era cannot understand why JP would eat the contract of a player that the team no longer believes can contribute. Did he overpay in the first place? Probably, but the overall deal still wasn't that large. Is it JP's fault that Lightenberg got hurt? Only if he has some divine powers which his won-lost record as GM has otherwise been hiding. Sorry, but no GM deserves to get crucified for a 2-year $2.5 million contract to a player with a reasonably productive past. Some people on here act like we're talking about Christian Guzman's contract. Get a grip.

The idea of keeping him so he can be flipped a la Terry Adams sounds appealing, but that means the team would have to carry him probably until July (and let him pitch a little), and he's shown little indication at any time that he can get hitters out while wearing a Jays uniform. The guy if likely finished, and the bullpen has been horrible for years. Is it really a crime that JP is simply trying to stock the bullpen with the best crop of pitchers he currently has (which includes League)?

On another note, good riddance to Justin Miller. His abilities to stay healthy and throw strikes will never match his raw stuff, and I'm glad the Jays have concluded as much.
Rich - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:49 PM EST (#108463) #
They could have released him a few days ago if they didn't see any improvement in his health or performance.

The response to this point is on the official site. Lightenberg said he's basically known for a couple of weeks that he wouldn't make the team, but that JP has been trying to work a trade to no avail. He added that it was no surprise, and that he felt the team gave him a fair shake this spring in getting him on the mound to show what he could do.

Ryan B. - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:51 PM EST (#108464) #
I guess I'm a step behind everyone else here but just to be clear, Ted Lilly will not make the start on April 9th against the Red Sox?

I was under the impression he would only be pushed back one start. If he is out longer I'm sad since I'm going to be at the Jays home opener and the next game as well. I got to watch Lilly pitch against the Angles last season He had a no-no going through 5 innings then my dad pipes up, "Hey Ryan, Lilly has a no hitter going. Did you notice that?" I screamed at him, "What are you doing?!?!? You don't say that out loud until the last pitch is thrown!!!" The Jays ended up losing 16-5 or something like that and the next freakin' batter hit a 3 run bomb!

My dad will be with me again this year but I'm making him wear a muzzle damnn it!

Who else will be attending the home opener? Also, will Gross be in the opening day lineup? If so who is out, Rios or Cat?
GregH - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:52 PM EST (#108465) #
I expect the season you mean was 2003.

I heard Mike Wilner on The Fan 590 yesterday saying that after pitching for a fairly short time in Japan in 2004, Pete Walker had spinal fusion surgery to correct a nerve problem and has since been throwing pain-free for the first time in years.

Given that, I think Walker is likely to have a very good year.
GregH - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:56 PM EST (#108466) #
"Who else will be attending the home opener?"

My sons (10 and 9)and I will be there is Sec 526. Look us up if your up there too.
Ryan C - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:57 PM EST (#108467) #
What about sending Kerry out for April? Or as Magpie suggests giving League an opprtunity to prove himself in AAA. Could Walker have cleared waivers and been instant insurance in case of any of the young pitchers or Ligtenburg flame out?

Chulk was just an example, any of those others work just as well. If Walker makes the team better then give me Walker. The problem with giving Ligtenberg a chance to flame out is that you have to actually experience the flaming out first. Or in other words you have to let him cost the team games in the standings before you finally let him go. If the Jays really think he's that bad then Im glad they cut him and didnt give him the chance. Now that doesnt necessarily mean that their assessment is correct, but I am happy that they had the guts to get rid of him if they felt he really wasnt going to be any help.

Gerry - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 09:59 PM EST (#108468) #
Kevin P:

I am trying to get the rosters but no news yet. Maybe tomorrow morning. I am not sure if they are all set at the same time, or if there is a trickle down effect over a couple of days.
kpataky - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 10:02 PM EST (#108470) #
The Minors typically don't release the rosters on their website to the public before their meet and greet. They want to "surprise" everyone. Cameron was in a hurry to pack and get ready to leave for Syracuse. They have a meet and greet and a pair of Exhibition games prior to their opener up there. They need to find a place to live and all that too. So they are very busy now.
Gerry - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 10:09 PM EST (#108471) #
Kevin:

According to the Chiefs website they have two games left in Florida. I assume they fly up on Sunday and have the meet and greet on Monday. The Fisher Cats have announced Monday for their meet and greet.

I am seeing if I can get rosters through some sources.
Ron - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 10:09 PM EST (#108472) #
Sporting News released their list of the top 50 players in baseball (I believe it's voted by MLB executives) and there were 2 Jays on the list. V-Dub at 38 and Doc at 50.
alsiem - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 10:18 PM EST (#108473) #
I think we're confusing the issue here because two guaranteed contracts have recently been dumped.

Lightenberg looks bad in retrospect as he was bad last year and has been cut this year. I didn't think it was a terrible signing at the time but it has turned out to be. It's immaterial really.

Now Koch was obviously a bad signing. Koch was on the downward spiral and that $950 000 thrown at him looks like the work of a drunken sailor trying to get a lap dance. That makes JP look stupid, 4 starts later and he's cut. It doesn't matter if it was attitude, ability or whatever-wasted cash.
VBF - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 10:36 PM EST (#108474) #
I will be attending the home opener. I'm taking 10 friends with me and we're sitting somewhere in the middle of 525. If you hear a cowbell and see a really big flag, you'll know who I am.

And for going off topic I must contribute to the present conversation:

You can't look at the Ligtenberg situation as a waste. There's two questions here however.

1) Was it worth to let him go at this point?

Yes, on the condition that he wasn't pre-2004 Ligtenberg, his place on the team is easily questioned. Getting value for the money is one thing, but by including an injured Ligtenberg into the lineup, the team overall loses any value gained.

2) Could he be effective?

Nobody can really answer this question unless you saw him pitch on a regular basis or are very knowledgable about his condition. This obviously ties in with #1, but unless he could be effective, having Pete Walker or Vinnie Chulk in the lineup gives the team more value than the lost value from his departure.

As much as he annoyed me last year, I actually became a fan of his towards the end.



Lefty - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 10:45 PM EST (#108475) #
Now Koch was obviously a bad signing. Koch was on the downward spiral and that $950 000 thrown at him looks like the work of a drunken sailor trying to get a lap dance.

Hey, hey, hey, no sectarian comments eh. We sailors don't have any time for drinking anymore. We're to busy bringing you all your junk from the 3rd world now. Remember, the stuff that used to be made down the road. Besides all of that was highly overblown.

John Northey - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 11:11 PM EST (#108476) #
Looking at the recent moves I guess the fight is over who is the best 7th option out of the pen (and maybe the 6th best). Sheesh. Now this is fighting over scraps. The big question in my mind is could Ligtenberg or Koch have been a top 3 reliever for the Jays. The 4th through 7th slots are guys who get used when the team is already behind, or we're in extra innings, or are used for one or two batters with the big guns getting ready.

The pen right now has 3 guys who almost definately will have better 2005 seasons than the two expensive releases in Batista, Frasor, and Speier. Schoeneweis most likely will as well. Chulk and League both have shown a lot more raw talent than Koch and Ligtenberg so both should be up here instead - I'd like to see the Jays win a few this year. Thus leaving just Walker, the 12th man on the staff, as a potential cut for either of the expensive releases. Plus Walker is good as an emergency starter or 3-6 innings in long relief which I doubt anyone would ever expect from Ligtenberg or Koch.

I am one who thought Ligtenberg was an expensive signing but a guy who should be a net plus to the Jays. He wasn't. If his hip is as bad as it seems then odds were low he'd ever again be worth a roster slot. I'd have looked at putting him on the DL just in case, but in truth I doubt I'd drop any of the guys in the pen for him (I'd rather cut 2 guys and have a 5 man pen, but that is an issue for another day).

Koch was just a plain old bad signing. Giving a guaranteed contract to him looked bad at the time and worse now. However, it was less than 2% of what the budget appeared to be at the time thus not a horrible risk.

Should be an interesting year. I look forward to seeing lots of games on tv and a few at the dome.
Thomas - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 11:26 PM EST (#108477) #
I don't mean to dump on the Gross bandwagon at all, as I support the move of him making the team, but for interest's sake, do you know who led the league in home runs last spring training?

I do and I'll let you guess.

The fact I said dump, not jump, should give you a clue.
Jdog - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 11:32 PM EST (#108478) #
Guess.... umm ... Joe Crede
Jim - Thursday, March 31 2005 @ 11:59 PM EST (#108480) #
Can someone please explain to me why Delgado couldn't have been offered arbitration?

2005 will be the end of the JP Riccardi era. I was a firm believer for a long time, but now I must admit I was wrong. This team will be lucky to get to 70 wins. They might struggle to score 700 runs with that pathetic offense.
jgadfly - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 12:02 AM EST (#108482) #
RE: Ligtenberg again...I think KL ran into an unfortunate situation with Lilly getting hurt requiring another 5th starter and Walker being the best alternative (long relief, situational, and the possibility of being a better #5 starter than either Towers or Chacin) but Walker's biggest problem was not being on the 40 man roster...so who do you look at to cut from there ?... some of the younger guys who haven't made it to the bigs ? Arnold just saved his 3rd game in 3 chances... Griffen should eventually hit (possibly ?) based on past record...does one cut him before he even gets to play at AAA...so you check the 25 man roster ... Chulk is the obvious guy sitting on a bubble but he's younger, in good health, throws hard, pitched quite well showing some potential early on last year and then "hit the wall" and also had a better spring than KL. Ligtenberg is fighting the onset of a very debilitating disease and after a winter of rest and recuperation still did not pitch up to previous Kerry Ligtenberg standards... if he had he stays on the 40 man and Chulk is probably gone. I don't believe that his contract money matters one way or the other . It's the position on the 40 mr and the best long term projection for the BJ's...
PS... best of luck to Kerry ...it's too bad that things didn't work out the way we all hoped ...but that's BB and life...who knows if Miller doesn't clear waivers KL could be back and on the DL for the home opener
rtcaino - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 12:32 AM EST (#108483) #
""Can someone please explain to me why Delgado couldn't have been offered arbitration?""

I really don't understand this one as well. Between not signing him, and signing Koskie, we took a three draft pick hit (not that I disagree with getting Koskie). Plus I think Florida's is right on the cusp of being in the bottom half, and therefore would have been about as good of a compensatory pick as you could ever possibly get.

The way I see it, worse case is that if Delgado doesn't get signed we probably could have traded him for some good young prospects or something. We might have had to eat a little bit of salary, but it would have been well worth the risk.
dp - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 12:40 AM EST (#108484) #
Delgado should've been offered arbitration, I agree.

This string of moves: I'm glad they let KL go- the Jays have a lot of arms to evaluate, and the only way to do that is to have them in the majors when they look ready. Relievers are kind of a crapshoot- they pitch so few innings to begin with that it's tough to evaluate them. KL pitching well maybe gets us a low level prospect, but keeps us from looking at a guy closer to the majors than the prospect we'd be getting back.

I'm glad to see Gross make the team. Really hope he does well, I'm expecting .350/.450 this year if they keep him around.

King Ryan - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 12:44 AM EST (#108485) #
I believe it was Dave McCarty that led last year's Spring Training in dongs. He was leading at one point, at least.
Thomas - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 12:56 AM EST (#108488) #
I'll give the answer tomorrow before mid-afternoon.

The two guesses so far have been incorrect, although they weren't bad and McCarty did lead at some point, I remember as well. He played himself into a bench spot for the Red Sox with his hot spring, if I remember correctly.
sduguid - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 01:06 AM EST (#108490) #
The only thing that seems clear at this point is that for every single move made this spring(and every move that wasn't made) there are numerous people who are upset, on both sides of the issue.
I have my opinions too, of course, but I'm too excited about the impending start of the season to be overly negative right now.
It's two months until the Jays visit Safeco Field!
King Ryan - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 01:24 AM EST (#108492) #
I read through the thread and didn't see this link, but I have a sneaking suspicion that I missed it. So, sorry if it's been posted before, but I enjoyed THIS article from SF explaining the move. It explains some things such as the reason why JP waited so long to cut bait on Ligtenberg. It also includes some classy lines from Kerry himself.

"I've basically known, more or less, for the last two weeks. It's not really a surprise," Ligtenberg said. "I can't blame them. They have some good arms in the bullpen. It wasn't a shock to me, because they have some guys that can take care of business."

I still don't like the move, but I can see JP's rationale in that he wants to field the best team. I just don't share his opinion of who would make up the best team.

Jacko - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 02:01 AM EST (#108493) #
Can someone please explain to me why Delgado couldn't have been offered arbitration?

This subject has been debated ad nauseum, but I believe the reasoning goes something like this:

Delgado, based on his performance in 2002-2004 (where he accumulated 107 HR and 356 RBI) would have gotten a very big arbitration award. As much as 14-15 MM.

Since the Jays did not want to commit that kind of money to a single player, they let him walk.

Pointing out that he signed for 13 MM per season in Florida and saying we threw away draft picks by not offering arbitration is also a little disingenous. If teams knew they were surrendering draft picks, they would not have been willing to offer as much. If Delgado was faced with the choice of a multiyear deal for 10 MM per season or a single year award for 15MM, he might have gone the arbitration route. And that was a chance the Jays felt they coulnd't take.

I really don't see what the big deal is here. The Jays suffered through a bad season last year because a whole bunch of players were either hurt or had off seasons. Wells is going to be better. Cat will have a better season. Rios is going to be a whole lot better in his second full season. And Gabe Gross looks like he's developing into a star. As long as Lilly can hold it together, the starting rotation should be ok and, the bullpen is going to be a lot stronger than last year.

I would be surprised if the 2005 edition of the Jays fails to finish about .500.

Named For Hank - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 07:22 AM EST (#108498) #
I still don't like the move, but I can see JP's rationale in that he wants to field the best team. I just don't share his opinion of who would make up the best team.

How much of spring training were you present for? How many games, and how many workouts and practice sessions? Just so we can evaluate the strength of your opinion on this.

sweat - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 07:32 AM EST (#108499) #
Not to mention Carlos would have been a 10-5 player, and would have had a no trade, automatically upon signing.
HollywoodHartman - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 07:42 AM EST (#108500) #
I believe Abraham Nunez led in HR's last spring somewhere between 10-14
Jim - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 08:26 AM EST (#108502) #
This subject has been debated ad nauseum, but I believe the reasoning goes something like this:


I know it has. That reasoning is clearly wrong at this point. Either they would have him overpaid at one year, which would make the team better for 2005 or they would have gotten the draft picks for him. He wouldn't have accepted arbitration - he ended up with three teams that were willing to go as high as Florida ended up going.



Mike D - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 09:08 AM EST (#108510) #
an ERA of 2.59 like I know he will,

King Ryan, I've got a pair of Cheer Club tickets that says Ligtenberg doesn't come within a full run of that. (And if he doesn't pitch for anybody, I win the bet.)

You game?

mistermike - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 09:28 AM EST (#108516) #
RE: Lightenberg...Walker replaces KL on 40 man roster

And that's a BIG part of it right there. They needed a 40-man roster spot for Walker so KL couldn't hang around (on the DL or elsewhere.

Rich - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 09:56 AM EST (#108522) #
That reasoning is clearly wrong at this point. Either they would have him overpaid at one year, which would make the team better for 2005 or they would have gotten the draft picks for him. He wouldn't have accepted arbitration - he ended up with three teams that were willing to go as high as Florida ended up going.

Your conclusion is only true in hindsight; it was not at all true by the arbitration deadline. At that point Carlos had few offers and he might well have accepted arbitration, stayed in the city he likes for another year, hoped to stay healthy and earn an even bigger deal next winter. Rogers had not yet bought the stadium and raised the payroll. If Carlos had accepted arbitration JP would have had little or no money to do anything else.

BP made the same argument in favour of offering arbitration, but the logic behind it is misinformed and unfair in this case, especially since Delgado's service time means he would be untradeable again. Many high-contract players (see Maddux, Greg) have accepted arbitration against their club's wishes and it was a risk JP couldn't afford to take back in December.

MatO - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 10:06 AM EST (#108524) #
To add to Rich's point. The Jays would also have had their hands completely tied during the prime FA period as they waited to see if Carlos accepted arbitration. They would have been unable to pursue anyone (like Koskie and Clement)until they knew Carlos' status.
Jim - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 10:25 AM EST (#108528) #
Many high-contract players (see Maddux, Greg) have accepted arbitration against their club's wishes and it was a risk JP couldn't afford to take back in December.


That's what I disagree with. He couldn't afford him so he could sign Koskie, Scott S, Koch, trade for Hillenbrand, etc. If he had made better moves with the money then I could support the decision. The fact that he wasted the money on players that won't even add up to Delgado make it a bad decision.
Rich - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 10:31 AM EST (#108530) #
You're changing your argument, Jim. You claimed Delgado wouldn't have accepted arbitration and that JP just flushed away free draft picks. Not true.

JP's plan was to spend the money on Koskie and Clement, but the latter wanted to go elsewhere.

robertdudek - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 11:02 AM EST (#108531) #
Actually, the Jays spent less on Koch, Schoeneweis, Hillenbrand and Koch combined than they would have payed Delgado in arbitration this year.

Koskie is an awfully good player, very good defensively at a key position, so his value alone isn't that far less than Delgado's. Overall I'd say the 4 players above combined are roughly comparable to Delgado in expected value.

Jim - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 11:08 AM EST (#108533) #
I think one or the other is better then this outcome.

I do not think he would have accepted arbitration.

However if he did, I'd rather have that one big salary then the players that have been brought in.
Jim - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 11:12 AM EST (#108535) #
Koskie in the past has been a good player. He's also getting older and is clearly not the player he once was. I've liked Koskie for a long time, but giving him three years is no solution to any problem. Especially since the only position players this team has of any note in the minors are infielders.

Schoeneweis, Hillenbrand and Koskie may reach Delgado's VORP this year together - but they take 3 times as many roster spots.

I know it's a minority opinion around here, but the major league roster for 2005 is bad. It's last place in the American League bad. I hope that I am wrong, but I fear that I am not.
Rich - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 11:16 AM EST (#108537) #
Well if they had kept Carlos the roster would have been virtually the same as last year's bottom dwellers. Fail to see your point.
Named For Hank - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 11:26 AM EST (#108540) #
Further, had they offered Delgado arbitration and he declined, would the Jays not only be out Delgado but also their offseason pickups that they spent their Delgado money on?

Can you imagine trying to fill those spots with what's left out there today?
Wildrose - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 11:42 AM EST (#108544) #
There's no doubt not offering Delgado arbitration was a huge mistake. The question is whose mistake was it?

My take is that the Roger's financial boys have to take the fall for this one, the lack of a flexible payroll in December tied Ricciardi's hands leaving to the loss of two draft picks ( and yes I believe the Marlins would still have signed him regardless of compensation). I have no in-sight into the internal operations of the Roger's corporation, but it wouldn't surprise me if this issue was one of the prime catalysts in changing the team's budget process to give the G.M. more ability to plan for the future.
Pepper Moffatt - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 11:47 AM EST (#108545) #
There's no doubt not offering Delgado arbitration was a huge mistake. The question is whose mistake was it?

I don't think it was a mistake at all.

Delgado could have gotten anywhere from $12 to $22 million or so in arbitration. Why does everyone assume Delgado was going to get a paycut in arbitration? What's the precedent?

The team would have absolutely no idea how much Delgado would get in arbitration. So if you offer him arb, there's the risk he'll take it. Because up to 40% of your payroll could be tied up with him, it eliminates your ability to sign free agents until the matter is settled. So you're punting the entire off-season for the chance for what? A 16th overall draftpick, that on average will turn into the next Dave Berg?

Pistol - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 11:55 AM EST (#108546) #
"What's the precedent?"

I know, I know! Randy Milligan in 1994. (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3732)

So in the past 10 years there hasn't been a single player to take a paycut in arbitration.
Jim - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 11:57 AM EST (#108548) #
How many players went to arbitration making what he was making?

I guess if you feel like the players they brought in are worth having then you like the move. I'd rather just have another $10 million to put towards the 2006 budget. I can't wait until next Spring Training when the money for Scott S is being eaten.
Pepper Moffatt - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 12:01 PM EST (#108549) #
How many players went to arbitration making what he was making?

That's just it. There have been none. Nobody knows what Delgado would have gotten in arbitration, because there aren't too many cases to fall back on. The Jays would be taking an absolutely huge gamble by offering Delgado arb.

Given his 2003 near-MVP season and playing well in 2004 despite an injury, there was a decent chance Delgado would have been given a raise by an arbitration board. They're rather unpredictable at the best of times, so there's no way we can say "he would have gotten $X" with any kind of certainty.

Wildrose - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 12:18 PM EST (#108551) #
Mike ,I'm saying if Ricciardi was given his 3 year rolling 210 million dollar budget in October 2004 instead of Feb. 2005, the prudent decision would have been to offer Delgado arbitration. I consider( although some like S.F. G.M. Brent Sabean don't) the potential two draft picks to have considerable value, and even if Delgado came back at 16-18 million, I could even live with that.

Not having a budget process in place to accomodate the slim chance of Delgado accepting arbitration was an organizational mistake.

jgadfly - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 12:25 PM EST (#108553) #
RE: Carlos discussion and since it's April 1st...could the BJ's trade for Carlos next offseason ? He is blocking a fairly good power hitter at the Marlins AAA (a guy that allowed them to trade Adrian Gonzalez) He is signed for little this year ($4 mil)...comparatively...alot next year. Some discussion at the time of Carlos' signing had him being traded at the end of the 05 season to possibly NYY depending on Giambi's stats & status...could he not end up in Toronto again since if the BJ's are ever to be considered a legitimate contender they would need a bat of his scale to qualify ? what would it take ?... say a high profile '05 1st round Florida college player and one of the Jay's young pitchers who are superfluous to their needs would probably do the trade...
a conversation... PG- we can't afford you this year and we can't provide you an opportunity for the '05 post season but if you sign for $15 mil somewhere we''ll try to get you back to play for us as a contender when we have more $$$...
CDG - OK see you in a year's time...
We can dream...that's why we love baseball and because it's April 1st...Why not?
Jdog - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 12:36 PM EST (#108554) #
In Reply to NFH's

Can you imagine trying to fill those spots with what's left out there today?

Ya I sure can. The deal of Peterson to arizona still goes through and we have Hillenbrand and Hinske at the corners. Cat DH's while Gross, Wells and Rios play the field with Johnson as the 4th. The only other guy we might not have been able to get would be SS...although we probably still would have. If we dont get him...big deal, We use Scott downs in the role.

I like to consider myself an optimist and the rants that have been going on about Kerry Lightenburg have really annoyed me , i am not a fan of critizing managements decisions..i am a fan of the bluejays....however i cant but help to agree that our team would be better with Delgado instead of (Koskie, Hilly, SS,) I think its obvious, especially if Gross becomes a regular. It would have removed our debate about what to do to make room for gross.
Thomas - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 12:52 PM EST (#108558) #
I believe Abraham Nunez led in HR's last spring somewhere between 10-14

Give HollywoodHartman the prize. I don't know the exact number myself, but Abraham Nunez is the correct answer. And he went .214/.297/.319 in 287 at-bats last year.

This is just for interest's sake. I do equate the two players at all, nor am I trying to draw any sort of analogy. It does seem to be interesting to see that his hot spring resulted in 287 terribly unproductive at-bats, when it should have become clear after 100 or 150 or 200 that he wasn't producing.

Thomas - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 12:53 PM EST (#108559) #
I do equate the two players at all

I left the most important word out of that phrase.

I do NOT equate the two players, at all.

Jim - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 01:10 PM EST (#108564) #
What would have been worse?

Delgado hampering their budget in 2005 or guys like Koskie hampering the budget in 2006 or 2007?

When it comes to signing Koskie and Schoenweis sometimes the best move is no move.
Jim - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 01:10 PM EST (#108565) #
What would have been worse?

Delgado hampering their budget in 2005 or guys like Koskie hampering the budget in 2006 or 2007?

When it comes to signing Koskie and Schoenweis sometimes the best move is no move.
daryn - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 01:12 PM EST (#108566) #
>Ricciardi just released Ligtenberg (2.5 mil) and Koch ($900,000) before spring training. That's 3.4 million of money that was thrown into a gutter. <

I have a saying,
"The first mistake was buying this bottle of wine, it would be as second mistake to DRINK it!"

daryn - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 01:14 PM EST (#108568) #
P.S.

Who is the backup CF? Sparky?
Jdog - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 01:19 PM EST (#108569) #
Sparky ad Rios can play CF
Wildrose - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 01:21 PM EST (#108571) #
Not sure where to put this, but this seems to be the hot thread, Dave Shoalts (not sure where Blair is?), in this mornings Globe reports Gabe Gross will platoon with Rios in right.

Now I love Gross, more so than Rios, but this is the first I've heard of this plan. Given the source I'm a little skeptical, but it is apparently a consideration.
Jdog - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 01:28 PM EST (#108573) #
We have been talking about that possibility in here for a week now , it was posted in other articles about a week ago
I dont really like it , but if it is just temporary , until they make room , thats fine
Mike Green - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 01:38 PM EST (#108577) #
Abraham Nunez hit 10 homers in 60 ABs with a cool .500 OBP last spring. He was 27 years old, and he did not have much of a minor league pedigree.
HollywoodHartman - Friday, April 01 2005 @ 08:08 PM EST (#108657) #
Yay this is the first thing I've won since I won a giant Simba stuffed animal at a raffle at a Pickel Barrel
The Last Cut is the Deepest | 117 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.