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The Burley mojo works again....not. The Jays could not overcome a rough first inning. Homers by Alex Rios and Russ Adams made the game interesting for a while, but that was really it. From the larger perspective, the show of oomph from Adams, Rios and Hill bodes well for the future. And that's our topic for today.



Spring has gone, and it seems like a good time to look forward. 2007 is the last year of the contracts of Roy Halladay, Eric Hinske, Vernon Wells, Corey Koskie and last but not least, JP Ricciardi. Amazingly, it is just over 1 and 1/2 seasons away, so in looking at the 2007 depth chart, our crystal ball need not be perfectly clear. For today's purposes, we'll look only at players in the Jay minor league system, or those with the big club who will not have sufficient service to achieve free agency by 2007 or who are under contract for 2007. So, Gregg Zaun does not qualify because he is under contract only through 2006 and will be eligible for free agency in 2007.

Catcher

Guillermo Quiroz
Curtis Thigpen

The ability of either of these minor leaguers to be a major league catcher in 2007 is highly conjectural, Quiroz due to injury and Thigpen due to developmental questions. It seems pretty clear that additional support will need to be obtained. It may be as simple as re-signing Zaun after 2006.


First Base

Eric Hinske
Corey Koskie
Chip Cannon

It's highly doubtful that all 3 of Hinske, Cannon and Koskie will be with the club in 2007, but Hinske and Koskie are under contract for that year and Cannon is on a pace to be here then too. Koskie will be 34 in 2007, and with his injury history, and the presence of Aaron Hill, I've placed him at first base. The current talent might very well be sufficient.


Second Base

Orlando Hudson
Ryan Roberts

Roberts is in his second year at second base, after playing third in his last two years of college and in his first year after signing. Whether he can play major league-quality defence at second is conjectural, so I am listing him at second and third. The larger question from where we stand in 2005 is how the O-Dog will hit. He will probably hit enough to play every day in 2007, but to expect more than that requires undying faith (which I have). Help is probably not needed here.


Shortstop

Russ Adams
Aaron Hill

Whether Adams and Hill will be stars or not, it seems pretty clear to me that they will have an adequate major leaguer, at the very least, here in 2007. My guess is that Russ Adams opens 2007 as the Jays shortstop and plays 155 games.


Third Base

Aaron Hill
John Hattig
Ryan Roberts

Check out the depth here. Aaron Hill will probably take this job and run with it over the next 6 years at least, but it never hurts to have a back-up plan in case of injury or position switch (Hill still might end up as a shortstop). Hattig and Roberts fill this role very well.


Outfield

Vernon Wells
Alex Rios
Reed Johnson
Gabe Gross
John-ford Griffin
Adam Lind

It's a little thin here. Wells will almost certainly be a major league quality outfielder in 2007, and Rios probably will be. Gross and Lind may be, but you wouldn't want to bet the farm on it.

The pitching staff

Roy Halladay
Gustavo Chacin
Dave Bush
Josh Towers
Jason Frasor
Vinny Chulk
Scott Downs
Francisco Rosario
Brandon League
Zach Jackson
Josh Banks
Shaun Marcum
Jamie Vermilyea
David Purcey
Ricky Romero
Vince Perkins
Dustin McGowan
Jason Arnold
Chad Gaudin

Out of these 19 pitchers, it is doubtful that more than 9 will be on 25 man roster when 2007 opens. But, when you can look forward a year and a half, and see 9-10 reasonable possibilities for 5 starting slots, you are in very good shape.



The Jays of 2007 look very good, but how good should a team look at that distance? Let's nip into the way-back machine for a moment to the summer of 2003. Do you remember? The Jays of Crash and Tom Wilson, Carlos and O-Dog were playing very, very well. Alex Rios and Guillermo Quiroz were having breakout seasons in New Haven, and Dustin McGowan and Dave Bush had just made the trip north from Dunedin. Gustavo Chacin was a young struggling pitcher in New Haven.

Here's how we might have imagined the 2005 team in the summer of 2003.

Catcher

Guillermo Quiroz-you never know with catchers, but he's off to a great start this year, and he played well for 1/2 a season last year in Dunedin.

Kevin Cash- it's not yet known whether he will hit enough to be an everyday catcher, but with his defensive skills, he should at least be a quality backup.

Jayson Werth-he's listed here, but he could equally well be a third baseman or a super-sub by the time he makes it to the Show for good. He should be a fairly good hitter wherever he ends up.

First Base

Josh Phelps- He can obviously (!) hit, but will he be able to play first base? It'd be nice if Carlos Delgado would DH 15 or 20 times to give him a chance to learn.

Second Base

Orlando Hudson- He plays excellent defence, he's young and there's potential for improvement in his bat. He'll be league average or better in 2005.

Shortstop

Chris Woodward- He's not great with the glove, but he's got enough pop in the bat to perhaps develop into a Bill Russell quality shortstop.

Russ Adams-there are real questions about whether he's got enough pop in his bat to hit major league pitching and whether he's got the arm to be a major league shortstop, but he's made reasonable progress so far in New Haven and he's still young.

Aaron Hill- there seems to be a logjam at short, but he was a terrific first round pick. Whether he'll be ready in 2005 is anyone's guess, but it's possible.

Third Base

Eric Hinske- His defence is poor and he's struggled this season with a wrist injury, but you'd guess that he will have some value in 2005 after his 2002 ROY campaign.

Outfield

Vernon Wells- fits the profile of a coming superstar to the T.

Alex Rios-1/2 a season in double A is certainly not a basis for projecting stardom, but there is good reason for optimism here

Gabe Gross-putting it together in double A after an off-season in 2002

Reed Johnson-came out of nowhere, and so it is not certain how he will be in 2005

Pitching Staff

Roy Halladay
Dustin McGowan
Dave Bush
Brandon League
Francisco Rosario
Jason Arnold
Josh Towers
Adam Peterson
Aquilino Lopez
Jason Kershner
Vince Perkins

And there's your main difference between the long-range state of the team in 2005 vs. 2003. You could tell in 2003 that quite a few pitchers would have to be obtained before 2005. Rosario had just had arm surgery, and his recovery was uncertain. Peterson had just been promoted to double A. League and Perkins had just been promoted to Dunedin.

Looking at the 2003 list is a sobering reminder of the unevenness of development patterns. It is perhaps not the most encouraging sign that on balance the young players of 2003 went backwards as opposed to forwards over the year and a half. Hopefully, the young talent of June, 2005 will do better than their predecessors.

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Ducey - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 10:16 AM EDT (#120272) #
Rios in 2007 out to finally be an above average outfielder offensively. I think it is reasonable to assume he will become gradually more aggressive and stronger over time. He is on pace for 10 homers this year. You have to think he will hit more in 2006 (say 15). By 2007 he should hit about 20 homers with a good number of doubles and triples.
Jordan - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 10:58 AM EDT (#120277) #
Rios actually has 5 homers (and 10 doubles) in his last 150 at-bats. I think he can finish 2005 with 15 round-trippers.
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 11:04 AM EDT (#120279) #
Personally, I think that Rios and Hudson will both be fine major leaguers in 2007. The development of Phelps and Hinske from 2003 to 2005, however, shows the uncertainty of even short-term projections.
westcoast dude - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 11:47 AM EDT (#120286) #
The pitching prospect list is impressive. Jackson is the sleeper and will be the pitching equivalent of the Aaron Hill Story, IMO.
Smaj - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 01:28 PM EDT (#120297) #
Interesting perspective Mike G, well done.
With the plethora of arms in the system and the nature of the 25 man & 40 man rosters, clearly this dictates that JP has to move arms in potential trades to bolster the ballclub. Provides JP with an enviable position of bundling young arms in trade scenarios.
I question Hudson's long term ability to hit consistently. Being objective the Jays are relativly deep with young middle IF's. Utopia would see Adams at SS & Hill being a 2nd Baseman (a true bonus to receive both OBA & Slugging from this position). Ryan Roberts is impressive thus far in the minors. O-Dog has two factors working against him: (1) Hill needs an everyday position (2)Koskie is signed to a lucrative deal;... and to a lesser extent JP has raved about Hillenbrand.
I fully anticipate the trades of Hudson & Hinske by July 31st this year, hopefully packaged with some young arms for proven MLB talent.
Pistol - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 02:28 PM EDT (#120309) #
The Jays are one game under .500, yet are 4th in the AL East, and 10th of 14 teams in the AL. A playoff spot at this point of the season is a longshot

I think it's starting to become clear that the Jays will need to look towards 2006 as trades begin to happen.
Gitz - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#120312) #
I fully anticipate the trades of Hudson & Hinske by July 31st this year, hopefully packaged with some young arms for proven MLB talent.

Hudson, yeah. There's a market for him. In addition to the obvious skills, Hudson looks like a ball-player. Sure, that didn't help Gabe Kapler much, but it helps with perception.

But Hinske? Here's a trend you don't want to see from a young hitter: .481, .437, .375, .398. Those represent Hinske's slugging percentages the last four years, and while this is not news to Jays fans, it might be to interested GMs, who, believe it or not, are not entirely clueless. Hinske looks for all the world to be the next Ben Grieve, which is too bad, because it looked both players were going to have very solid careers. Hinske has time, but he's got no trade value right now, and his disappearing act in June is not going to help much.

Mike Green - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 03:09 PM EDT (#120317) #
You'd probably have to throw in dollars or players to trade Hinske, at this point, in light of his contract.
Smaj - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#120323) #
"Hudson looks like a ball-player. Sure, that didn't help Gabe Kapler much, but it helps with perception."

Hudson is a Gold Glove calibre 2nd bagger who will hit .260-.270 & switch-hitter on paper at least. There will always be demand for guys like this.

"Hinske looks for all the world to be the next Ben Grieve"

Since Grieve's ROY how many organizations have taken chances on him!! Someone will think they can revive Hinske (I agree with Mike G in that cash or young arms will have to accompany Hinske) or the Jays acquire another bad contract in return. Baseball has a long memory for once promising players & many GM's aspire to catch lightning in a bottle!
Gitz - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#120328) #
Smaj, I like how you edited my quote, truncating the part that says, about Hudson, "In addition to the obvious skills," which meant, of course, precisely what you said.

As for the Grieve comparisons, they're not accurate, because Grieve was traded after his 2000 season, when he hit .279/.359/.487, with 27 home runs and the all-powerful 100 RBI. The teams that have recently taken chances on Grieve have done so via the free-agent route, not via trade, as it took the D-Rays three years to realize that Grieve's career had not, in fact, flat-lined but had deteriorated. Hinske hasn't even flat-lined; he's simply declined. There is no market for him right now, and that's not because of his contract.
Magpie - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#120330) #
Since Grieve's ROY how many organizations have taken chances on him!!

Ben Grieve?

Signing a guy off the scrap to a minor-league deal is not exactly "taking a chance on him." After Tampa Bay let him walk away as a free agent, he signed with Milwaukee, at about an 85% salary cut (from $5.5 million to $700 thousand.). The Brewers traded him to the Cubs for Andy Pratt. The Cubs released him. The Pirates signed him to a minor league deal. The Pirates released him. The Cubs signed him to a minor league deal. He was up for about 10 days last month, and now he's back in Iowa. Nobody has invested anything of any value in Ben Grieve for years and years.

Pepper Moffatt - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#120333) #
Plus Grieve was a 2nd overall draftpick and was one of the hottest prospects in baseball before coming up with the A's. Hinske was a 17th rounder and considered a B-/C prospect by everyone but Baseball Prospectus.
Mick Doherty - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#120336) #
I would think Grieve is eventually a slam dunk to end up in the Rangers' organization, where daddy used to be GM and is now the very high profile local colour man for the TV games, and the AA franchise in Frisco is a short thirty-minute drive from home plate in the big club's park.

That's right, Ben Grieve, DH for your 2006 Frisco Roughriders. (With that name, shouldn't they be in the CFL?)
daryn - Thursday, June 23 2005 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#120435) #
At $100 -> $350,000 I can see Hinkse bouncing around for quite a while...

The problem is he's signed for $4.3 Mill for next year...
($3 Mil this year)

Only a contender is going to pick that contract up, but only a builder would take the chance...

Do you suppose we can trade the player to Tampa and the contract to NY??


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