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I was messing around on ESPN, when I saw a link to a page I had never visited:

Lifers: This lists the rare players in MLB who have been with only one team throughout their careers with at least 10 years in the pros.

There are 15 players on the list, and here's who they are:

Craig Biggio, John Smoltz, Frank Thomas, Jeff Bagwell, Bernie Williams, Tim Salmon, Chipper Jones, Mike Lieberthal, Garrett Anderson, Bobby Higginson, Mike Sweeney, Brad Radke, Mariano Rivera, Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada.

That's not very many. Their ranks were reduced in 2005 by the retirements of Edgar Martinez and Barry Larkin, and the free agency moves of Troy Percival and Carlos Delgado.

How many such players would we normally find, as we scroll down through the years? Let's take it at 10 year intervals.

In 1995, there were 18 players with 10 years in the majors, for the same team in the same city. They were: Mark McGwire, Ron Karkovice, Mike Greenwell, Cal Ripken, Roger Clemens, Don Mattingly, Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker, Marc Gubicza, Ozzie Guillen, Kirby Puckett, Chuck Finley, Terry Steinbach, Darren Daulton, Barry Larkin, Shawon Dunston, Tony Gwynn, Robby Thompson. Ten of these players would finish where they started. The others - McGwire, Clemens, Gubicza, Guillen, Finley, Steinbach, Daulton, and Dunston - would all move along before they were done.

In 1985, there were 16 such players - Ron Guidry, Jim Rice, Dwight Evans, Scott McGregor, Robin Yount, Jim Gantner, Willie Wilson, Frank White, George Brett, John Wathan, Bob Forsch, Andre Dawson, Mike Schmidt, Bill Russell, Dave Concepcion, and Dale Murphy. Of these 16, 12 would actually finish their careers with their original teams. The exceptions were Evans, Wilson, Dawson, and Murphy.

In 1975, there were 17 such players: Carl Yastrzemski, Rico Petrocelli, Brooks Robinson, Jim Palmer, Paul Blair, Bill Freehan, Willie Horton, Mickey Lolich, Bert Campaneris, Tony Oliva, Willie Stargell, Ed Kranepool, Don Kessinger, Pete Rose, Tony Perez, Don Sutton, and Bob Watson. Of this group, only 8 would finish their careers with their original teams. The guys who would move on were Blair, Horton, Lolich, Campaneris, Kessinger, Rose, Perez, Sutton, and Watson.

In 1965, there were 13 of these players: Al Kaline, Mickey Mantle, Elston Howard, Whitey Ford, Brooks Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Roy Face, Bob Friend, Vernon Law, Frank Robinson, Ken Boyer, Ernie Banks, and Bill Mazeroski. Of this group, 8 would finish their careers where they started. The exceptions are Howard, Face, Friend, Frank Robinson, and Boyer. This list would be longer, were it not for the fact that the 1950s and 1960s saw so much movement of entire teams: the Braves (twice), the A's (twice), the Dodgers, Giants, Browns, Senators.

In 1955, there were only 10 of these players: Yogi Berra, Bob Lemon, Ted Williams, Pee Wee Reese, Carl Furillo, Gil Hodges, Stan Musial, Phil Rizzuto, Jim Hegan, and Red Schoendienst. Lemon, Williams, Rizzuto, and Musial were the only ones who would finish where they started. No, not even Yogi...

Players who stay with the same team in the same city have always been scarce. Certainly, very few of the greatest players of all time have managed it. Look at first few sets of the Hall of Fame inductees: Cobb (no), Wagner (no), Ruth (no), Mathewson (no), Johnson (YES), Lajoie (no), Speaker (no), Young (no), Sisler (no), Collins (no), Keeler (no), Gehrig (YES).

The vast majority of baseball players have always moved from team to team during their careers. The ones who didn't are the exceptions, and always have been. The usual reason a player changes teams, even today, is because he is either a) traded or, b) released. There are very few players, even in the modern era, whose ONLY switch of teams came about through free agency: Molitor (twice), Carew, Bonds, Giambi, Glavine, Mussina, Greg Maddux (twice), Delgado.

In addition to free agency, one of the more significant changes in baseball in the past thirty years is the 10 and 5 rule. Players with 10 years of major league service, the last five of which are with their present team, can not be traded without their consent. This would hardly be expected to increase player movement. So perhaps a more interesting question is why people have this notion that players like Puckett and Mattingly are a vanishing breed, when the evidence suggests that they are what they have always been, an Extremely Rare Species.

People start with the assumption that a situation exists. However, looking at the actual evidence does not support the assumption, so we must assume that no one is looking at the evidence. Where does this assumption come from? It's possible that some people simply want to make a statement about the nature and character of modern players. Perhaps people begin with the assumption that people today are more greedy and mercenary than people were twenty or thirty years ago.

What seems most likely to me, though, is that people honestly believe that things have changed radically. Perhaps they remember baseball cards when they were young, and all those nice tidy rows of "New York AL" on the back of Mantle and Ford. People remember great players, and in the past it was only great and memorable players who had this type of career. Memories play people false; most great players did move on eventually. In addition, one thing that truly has changed is that now you don't have to be a great player to play your whole career in one town. While Frank White may be the Bill Mazeroski of the 1980s, its hard to think of a past parallel for Jim Gantner (17 years in Milwaukee), Ron Oester (12 years in Cincinnati), and Tom Pagnozzi (12 years in St Louis).

I think its possible that there is a New York bias to this thinking. While these players have always been rare, New York has always had an extraordinarily large number of them. Four of the fifteen players on the current list are New York players. Furthermore, in addition to the ones already mentioned, there was also DiMaggio, Gehrig, Heinrich, Keller, Combs, Dickey; Bill Terry, Mel Ott, Carl Hubbel with the NL teams. New York absolutely dominated baseball reporting for a long time, and when the New York situation changed, people assumed that all of baseball had changed.

Ten Year Men | 17 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
costanza - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 06:54 PM EDT (#120223) #
David Grabiner did a study of this topic in the late 90's, and posted it to rec.sport.baseball in 1997. (Ah, for the days of the "golden era" of that newsgroup)

He found that 10-year players weren't particularly rare or common in the '90s, but that they WERE (relatively) common in the 1950s, the "decade in which the highest percentage of players stayed with one team".

Players not spending their entire careers with one team is clearly nothing new, though to the Bob Costases of the world who grew up with the relatively "static" 1950s, it would seem that way.

My favourite trivia item about player movement, though, is that Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, and Willie Mays all ended their careers in the same city they started -- but playing for different franchises. (Of course, Barry had to go and wreck that... :)

Oh, and Jorge Posada and Brad Radke have been in the majors for 10 years now? Man, am I getting old... :)

P.S. I think your link is broken, Magpie

costanza - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#120224) #
Um... stupid google (or stupid me). this link will probably look better than mine above.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#120225) #
The link is fixed!

I think a large reason that the number is so low for 1955 is because of the war, which interrupted a great many careers, and caused lots of others to start later than they would have otherwise.

Mick Doherty - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#120226) #
Craig Biggio, John Smoltz, Frank Thomas, Jeff Bagwell, Bernie Williams, Tim Salmon, Chipper Jones, Mike Lieberthal, Garrett Anderson, Bobby Higginson, Mike Sweeney, Brad Radke, Mariano Rivera, Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada.

Oh, gosh, I love this kind of stuff. Now let's see if we can ...
C Jorge Posada
1B Jeff Bagwell
2B Craig Biggio
SS Derek Jeter
3B Chipper Jones
LF Garret Anderson
CF Bernie Williams
RF Tim Salmon
DH Frank Thomas
SP Brad Radke
SP John Smoltz
CL: Mo Rivera

Bench: Mike Lieberthal, Bobby Higginson, Mike Sweeney

Yup, we can. What are the odds of that?

Mick Doherty - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 07:37 PM EDT (#120227) #
And for the 1995 crew:
Mark McGwire, Ron Karkovice, Mike Greenwell, Cal Ripken, Roger Clemens, Don Mattingly, Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker, Marc Gubicza, Ozzie Guillen, Kirby Puckett, Chuck Finley, Terry Steinbach, Darren Daulton, Barry Larkin, Shawon Dunston, Tony Gwynn, Robby Thompson.

C Terry Steinbach
1B Don Mattingly
2B Lou Whitaker
SS Alan Trammell
3B Cal Ripken Jr.
LF Mike Greenwell
CF Kirby Puckett
RF Tony Gwynn
DH Mark McGwire
RHSP Roger Clemens
LHSP Chuck Finley
RHSP Mark Gubicza
Bench:
C: Darren Daulton, Ron Karkovice
IF: Barry Larkin, Ozzie Guillen, Robby Thompson
UTIL: Shawon Dunston

No closer, but better starting pitching and a much better bench than their '05 counterparts.

Mick Doherty - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#120228) #
As for the boys of '75 (yes, yes, we skipped '85, we'll come back):
Carl Yastrzemski, Rico Petrocelli, Brooks Robinson, Jim Palmer, Paul Blair, Bill Freehan, Willie Horton, Mickey Lolich, Bert Campaneris, Tony Oliva, Willie Stargell, Ed Kranepool, Don Kessinger, Pete Rose, Tony Perez, Don Sutton, and Bob Watson.

C Bill Freehan
1B Willie Stargell
2B Pete Rose
SS Bert Campaneris
3B Brooks Robinson
LF Carl Yastrzemski
CF Paul Blair
RF Willie Horton
DH Tony Oliva
RHSP Don Sutton
LHSP Mickey Lolich
RHSP Jim Palmer
Bench: Rico Petrocelli, Tony Perez, Bob Watson, Don Kessinger, Ed Kranepool

Much less versatility on the bench, no backup catcher (unless you count Campaneris), and like the '95 team, no closer (perhaps proving what a rarity Rivera has been) ... but again, a complete lineup, once you remember Rose came up as a 2B. Amazing.

Mick Doherty - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#120229) #
Back in 1985, then (Cue "Bowling For Soup" music):
Ron Guidry, Jim Rice, Dwight Evans, Scott McGregor, Robin Yount, Jim Gantner, Willie Wilson, Frank White, George Brett, John Wathan, Bob Forsch, Andre Dawson, Mike Schmidt, Bill Russell, Dave Concepcion, and Dale Murphy.

C John Wathan
1B Dale Murphy
2B Frank White
SS Robin Yount
3B George Brett
LF Jim Rice
CF Andre Dawson
RF Dwight Evans
DH Tony Oliva
RHSP Scott McGregor
LHSP Ron Guidry
RHSP Bob Forsch
Bench: Jim Gantner, Dave Concepcion, Bill Russell, Jim Gantner

I am just stunned that we've done four decades and been able to fill out a full starting lineup for each, with the very first stretch coming at Dale Murphy playing 1B for the '85 team ... he did play 209 games there in his career. Can we keep it up with the '65 team?

Mick Doherty - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#120230) #
Whoops. obviously Oliva is a cut-and-paste error for the '80s ... say, Gantner plays 3B and Brett is the DH? Or maybe Willie Wilson, who we managed to forget to include on the bench, DHs and leads off?
Mick Doherty - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#120231) #
Here's the Boys of Summer of '65:
Al Kaline, Mickey Mantle, Elston Howard, Whitey Ford, Brooks Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Roy Face, Bob Friend, Vernon Law, Frank Robinson, Ken Boyer, Ernie Banks, and Bill Mazeroski.

C Elston Howard
1B Al Kaline
2B Bill Mazeroski
SS Ernie Banks
3B Brooks Robinson
LF Frank Robinson
CF Mickey Mantle
RF Roberto Clemente
DH Ken Boyer
RHSP Vernon Law
RHSP Bob Friend
CL Roy Face
Bench: Jim Gantner, Dave Concepcion, Bill Russell, Jim Gantner

FIVE Pirates? How about that pitching staff? Even with only 13 options here, we fill out a complete lineup by playing Kaline at 1B, where he finished up his career. No bench at all, of course, but at least we have a relief pitcher. Boyer not the ideal DH, but what, he's gonna bump Brooks from the hot corner?

Mick Doherty - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#120232) #
Stoopid Cut and Paste! I left the '85 bench with the '65 team ... just ignore it. There are no bench players for the '65 team, just nine position player including the DH and four pitchers.
Mick Doherty - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 08:14 PM EDT (#120233) #
1955:
Yogi Berra, Bob Lemon, Ted Williams, Pee Wee Reese, Carl Furillo, Gil Hodges, Stan Musial, Phil Rizzuto, Jim Hegan, and Red Schoendienst.

There are only 10 total, so we'll need an exact match to get there ...

C Jim Hegan
1B Gil Hodges
2B Red Schoendienst
SS Phil Rizzuto
3B Pee Wee Reese
LF Ted Williams
CF Stan Musial
RF Carl Furillo
DH Yogi Berra
RHSP Bob Lemon

Reese played 115 games at 3B. Playing Musial in CF is a defensive liability, but Furillo, for all his legendary arm, can't handle center, and Teddy Ballgame didn't care about playing the field. But with that one minor adjustment, and Berra DH'ing with Hegan behind the plate, once again somehow we get a full lineup out of the decade's 10-year men.

Who'd a thunk it?

Magpie - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 10:06 PM EDT (#120236) #
Wow.

I think Musial actually did play CF for a year.

Mike Green - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 10:11 PM EDT (#120237) #
Funny thing is, I think Musial in centerfield would have been fine early in his career.

I love the 85 infield: Mattingly, Whitaker, Trammell and Ripken. All AL East in a year that should have belonged to us. Springsteen, Madonna, waiting on Nirvana...
Magpie - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 10:24 PM EDT (#120238) #
Yes, Musial played 100 some odd games in CF in 1952, and over 300 in his career. He was obviously quick enough to cover the ground - geez, you look at all those extra base hits and runs scored and it's clear the man could run, even if he didn't steal bases, I think the one weakness to his game was that he didn't have a great arm - he injured it before he came to the majors. He was a pitcher before that.

But he sure threw out a lot of baserunners from the outfield anyway. Ah, what a ball player he was.

costanza - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 10:22 AM EDT (#120274) #
Brett a DH? That was the year he was a "Gold Glover"!

Oh, and I think I'd prefer Michael Jack in my lineup over Gantner... :)
Mick Doherty - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#120285) #
With everyone's suggested changes, then:

2005
C Jorge Posada
1B Jeff Bagwell
2B Craig Biggio
SS Derek Jeter
3B Chipper Jones
LF Garret Anderson
CF Bernie Williams
RF Tim Salmon
DH Frank Thomas
SP Brad Radke
SP John Smoltz
CL: Mo Rivera
Bench: Mike Lieberthal, Bobby Higginson, Mike Sweeney

1995
C Terry Steinbach
1B Don Mattingly
2B Lou Whitaker
SS Alan Trammell
3B Cal Ripken Jr.
LF Mike Greenwell
CF Kirby Puckett
RF Tony Gwynn
DH Mark McGwire
RHSP Roger Clemens
LHSP Chuck Finley
RHSP Mark Gubicza
Bench: Darren Daulton, Ron Karkovice, Barry Larkin, Ozzie Guillen, Robby Thompson, Shawon Dunston

1985
C John Wathan
1B Dale Murphy
2B Frank White
SS Robin Yount
3B George Brett
LF Jim Rice
CF Andre Dawson
RF Dwight Evans
DH Mike Schmidt
RHSP Scott McGregor
LHSP Ron Guidry
RHSP Bob Forsch
Bench: Jim Gantner, Dave Concepcion, Bill Russell, Willie Wilson

1975
C Bill Freehan
1B Willie Stargell
2B Pete Rose
SS Bert Campaneris
3B Brooks Robinson
LF Carl Yastrzemski
CF Paul Blair
RF Willie Horton
DH Tony Oliva
RHSP Don Sutton
LHSP Mickey Lolich
RHSP Jim Palmer
Bench: Rico Petrocelli, Tony Perez, Bob Watson, Don Kessinger, Ed Kranepool

1965
C Elston Howard
1B Al Kaline
2B Bill Mazeroski
SS Ernie Banks
3B Brooks Robinson
LF Frank Robinson
CF Mickey Mantle
RF Roberto Clemente
DH Ken Boyer
RHSP Vernon Law
RHSP Bob Friend
CL Roy Face
Bench: None

1955
C Jim Hegan
1B Gil Hodges
2B Red Schoendienst
SS Phil Rizzuto
3B Pee Wee Reese
LF Ted Williams
CF Stan Musial
RF Carl Furillo
DH Yogi Berra
RHSP Bob Lemon
Bench: None
Mick Doherty - Thursday, June 21 2007 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#170301) #

So, does this still hold up for 2007?
Well, we have just 12 names to work with, but amazingly, they exactly fit a major league lineup, with a leftover backup catcher and including both a SP and RP (though the SP was a hell of a RP for a time, too.) I count six or seven future Hall of Famers on this list. No surprise, there.

2007

  • C Jorge Posada  New York Yankees 12 Seasons
  • 1B Todd Helton  Colorado Rockies 10 Seasons 1492
  • 2B Craig Biggio  Houston Astros 19 Seasons
  • SS Derek Jeter  New York Yankees 12 Seasons
  • 3B Chipper Jones  Atlanta Braves 13 Seasons
  • LF Garret Anderson  Los Angeles Angels 13 Seasons
  • CF Torii Hunter  Minnesota Twins 10 Seasons
  • RF Andruw Jones  Atlanta Braves 11 Seasons
  • DH  Mike Sweeney  Kansas City Royals 12 Seasons
  • SP John Smoltz  Atlanta Braves 18 Seasons
  • RP Mariano Rivera  New York Yankees 12 Seasons
  • Backup C: Jason Varitek  Boston Red Sox 10 Seasons
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