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Instant Replay Jays 4, Yankees 5: #^&%$O#@
This was, for the most part, a terrific game. It started out as a fine, tight pitcher's duel between Al Leiter and Josh Towers. The Jays took a 3-2 lead in the top of the 8th, but Schoeneweis and Speier let the Yankees tie it up. So the Jays took a 4-3 lead in the top of the 9th against Mariano Rivera himself, only to see Miguel Batista spit it right back up, as if he played for the 1978 Red Sox or something: a leadoff homer to Matsui, three bases on balls, and a game-winning hit by Felix Escalona.

Felix Friggin' Escalona? There are no words...

Posted by Magpie on Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 10:15 PM EDT.
Jays 4, Yankees 5: #^&%$O#@ | 60 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Jefftown - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 10:24 PM EDT (#126370) #
We've reached the point in the season where all Cinderellas' bubbles burst, where the Little Engines that Could find out that they Cannot, where Sauron (a.k.a. the Yankees) gets the ring, etc...
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Paul D - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 10:24 PM EDT (#126371) #
I want to weep.

This sucks.

I am putting all my energy into hoping for a Jays win tomorrow.
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Jim - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 10:29 PM EDT (#126372) #
I was actually going to drive down tonight, thank God I was tired this morning.

I was out and about listening to DET/OAK, TB/CLE, TOR/NYY and I knew all three were just going to go the wrong way. With the Jays being 99% done, I want Oakland to win that Wildcard so badly. Of course neither Toronto or Oakland can get out of their own way right now so Carlos Pena hits 2 HR and the Rays blow a 2 run lead in the 7th and I'm not even ready to talk about what happened in the Bronx.

This has been a painful week of baseball, and I might need a total media blackout for the next few days to get my bearings back.
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Some call me Tim - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 10:30 PM EDT (#126373) #
Weren't we having a discussion recently about the efficacy of our closer? Anyone want to change their vote?

On the positive side, at least we saw a re-emergence of some offence.
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jaysfan - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#126374) #
Man, that was hard to watch. It reminded me of Yankees-Twins Game 2 last Oct when the Yanks looked done and were about to go down 2-0 to the Twinkies when they had a big comeback in their last AB. As much as I hate the Yankees, I have to admit that they do have the best fans in baseball. Important games at Yankee Stadium games always seem to be played at another level. Every pitch means more, etc. I'm glad that the Jays have the opportunity to play important games this late in the season against the Yanks. So the saying goes, you have to learn to crawl before you learn to walk. Here's an interesting stat that I discovered: The last 4 World Champions have all beaten the Yankees in the postseason. The 01' Diamondbacks in the WS, the 02' Angels in DS, the 03' Marlins in WS, and the Bo Sox in ALCS. It's tough losses like this one that will prepare the Jays to play at the next level in years to come. It may be painful now, but remember we had 2 rookies in the lineup tonight and 1 who has just over a year of ML experience. The future is still bright!!
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dr. haque - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#126375) #
Man if I am feeling the hurt I cant imagine they are opening champagne bottles in the Jays clubhouse. After this heartbreaking loss I think I can try to come up with a couple of positives.

1. Josh Towers was good, the man had thrown only 57 pitches through 6 innings against a powerful patient lineup. Says a lot.
2. Jays taking a lead off the best closer in baseball. Nuff said.

The turning points of the game were (but I cant remember which inning) when Greg Zaun is on second with nobody out and does not move one step from there and of course with the bases loaded and one out and Jays cant get a run in.

For me something else really stuck in my mind and I dont know if anyone else noticed this but it was after Jays took the lead in the ninth it seemed like Wells did not keep the pressure on and just kinda gave up because the Jays took the lead. To me it seemed like he should have really pressed Rivera.
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Magpie - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 10:48 PM EDT (#126376) #
Is it possible that someone suffered more than we did tonight? Freddy Garcia of the White Sox took a no-hitter into the eighth inning and gave up a solo homer to Jaques Jones. Garcia pitched a one-hitter and lost the game (as Johan Santana pitched three-hit shutout ball for eight innings.)

Ah, screw 'em. They're going to the post-season. We suffered more....

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King Ryan - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#126377) #
Maybe the Jays wouldn't have had to use Batista if Towers didn't come out of the game at 71 pitches?
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Magpie - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 10:54 PM EDT (#126378) #
it seemed like Wells did not keep the pressure on and just kinda gave up because the Jays took the lead. To me it seemed like he should have really pressed Rivera.

I'm sure he wanted to, but it was still Mariano Rivera out there. He quite often doesn't allow you to do what you want. I'm not gonna complain about the guy who had three hits...

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the mick - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 10:57 PM EDT (#126379) #
Man, they've had a great run this year, to even have flirted with the wild card, without Doc since the AS break. This was a heartbreaker, as too many have been lately. Zaun, bases loaded, one away, top eight, insurance run time? Nope. Three pitches, and siddown. They have battled admirably all year. Give them their due for making this such an entertaining year. And it ain't over yet.
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Magpie - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 10:57 PM EDT (#126380) #
Maybe the Jays wouldn't have had to use Batista if Towers didn't come out of the game at 71 pitches?

I hear what you're saying, but I would have taken him out. It's not the number of pitches so much as the fact that he'd been pitching for two hours and twenty minutes (which is where we were at, thanks largely to Leiter.) I believe in actual length of game far more than number of pitches as a factor in pitcher fatigue...

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Ron - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 10:59 PM EDT (#126381) #
Nice outing by Towers! I'm not sure what else he has to do to earn a spot in next years rotation.

It may seem bleak right now but most people at the beginning of the season thought the Jays would be a .500 team give or take 5 games in either direction. It looks like they have a strong chance to finish with 76-86 wins.

Stay positive, hopefully brighter days are ahead.
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Keith Talent - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 11:05 PM EDT (#126382) #
The payroll increase is going to be nice for next year, but is anyone else worried about the lack of talent out there? And the number of bidders? What if the Jays can't improve themselves?

Giles, Dunn, etc. ... these guys are on everybody's radar. What if the offseason is just going to be the trading deadline prolongued? Too many buyers, not enough talent: No deals.

I'd put us at even money to land AJ Burnett. But really, I think the Blue Jays (and Ted Rogers) made a huge mistake in not freeing up the purse strings a little earlier to get Delgado to sign his name on a long-term extension. And this might hurt the team for a while. Who knows if we can replace that power even next year? The market is uncertain and you can't bet and walking away with a gem, even with money to spend.
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King Ryan - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 11:18 PM EDT (#126383) #
Nice outing by Towers! I'm not sure what else he has to do to earn a spot in next years rotation.

Maybe show that he has the toughness to go deep into games instead of coming out after two hours or 71 pitches or whatever measure you want to use.

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Ron - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 11:33 PM EDT (#126384) #
I really questioned why JP was given a budget increase once FA was basically over with the exception of Maggie still being on the market. But people said the budget couldn't increase until the Skydome deal was complete. Considering Godfrey stepped into the Delgado situation and offered him a 2yr/12 mil contract and said it was fair market vaule, it was clear the Jays had no intention of bringing him back.

I know it's easy to say the budget increase will solve the Jays problems but I'm not sure. Somebody on the roster estimated the current Jays team would cost around 56 mil next season. I'm not taking trades into consideration and that would leave JP around 24 mil to work with assuming he evenly divides 2 year budget money.

The way I look at it, the Jays need 2 middle of the order/power bats and at least 1 frontline starter. I don't think 24 mil is enough to land all those type of players through FA. It's hard to predict the market in the off-seaosn but I expect the Yanks, Red Sox, O's, and Jays to be heavily involved in the Burnett sweepstakes. I would be shocked if he signed for anything less than 3yrs/36 mil. If Beltran can get a long-term deal for 17 mil a season I don't think it's unreasonable to see a player like Korneko getting at least 12 mil a season himself.

What disturbed me about last off-season was that JP said there were "Canadian" issues with FA's. Players such as Kline and Clement were asking about taxes and other issues. I'm afraid much like the NBA there may be a negative Canadian stigma about playing in Canada. And of course there's the problem of being in the same division as the Red Sox and Yanks. Most players like to win and those 2 teams present a huge challenge.

If not through FA, then players will have to be aquired through trades. I'm not sure what kind of value Jays prospects have around the league. I think most would agree the Jays have a solid farm system but they lack impact/sexy prospects that are attractive to other clubs.

I got all excitied about last off-seaosn because JP said it was the first time he had a significant amount of money to play with. That got the Jays Koskie, Hillenbrand, and Koch. Needless to say I was disappointed. I'm not sure what the off-season will bring the Jays, but I'm going to lower my expectations.
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Ron - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 11:41 PM EDT (#126385) #
Maybe show that he has the toughness to go deep into games instead of coming out after two hours or 71 pitches or whatever measure you want to use. Considering in his last 7 starts Tower has gone 7, 6.2, 7.2, 6, 9, 6.2, and 7 innings, going deep into games isn't a problem for him. He's on pace for over 200 innings this season and has an ERA a shade over 4. You'll be hard pressed to find a lot of better 5th starters than Josh.
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Magpie - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 11:41 PM EDT (#126386) #
Maybe show that he has the toughness to go deep into games

OK, we're all a little cranky tonight. Towers went 7 tonight, he pitched a CG shutout the start before. And in the four starts before that one, he pitched 7, 7.2, 8.2, and 6 innings. So in his last six starts, he's worked into the 9th inning twice, and completed 7 innings three times.

So I'd say he's shown he can go deep into the game.

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King Ryan - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 11:43 PM EDT (#126387) #
Yes, okay. So I'm just cranky. But how many other pitchers would leave the game when Towers did today, given the situation? Granted, I wouldn't be talking about it if Batista had held the lead, but it's something that should not be ignored in my opinion.
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Magpie - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 11:43 PM EDT (#126388) #
OK, not only was Ron on it quicker than me, he was more accurate!
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Rob - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 11:44 PM EDT (#126389) #
TSN is showing some of the Little League World Series right now (the Canada-Russia matchup, it appears), and the ESPN coverage was nothing short of distasteful towards the Russian team just now. They introduce the players with little tidbits that you'd expect with 12 year olds, but it just sounds ignorant to me: "Playing LF is Vadim. He likes McDonald's. (pause) I guess they have that in Russia now." It's not the only thing, either.

Despite the fact that it's on ESPN, this is pretty cool, watching this. Wow, a collision between the Russian shortstop and left fielder! If anyone is near a TV, check out the Canadian team. Where else can you see a 12 year old from Surrey try and bunt for a squeeze play?
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Magpie - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 11:46 PM EDT (#126390) #
It's the manager's call, but I imagine he was thinking that Towers had given up a run in the sixth, a run in the seventh, it was a hot evening, it was a long game, and he'd been worked rather hard over his last half a dozen starts.
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King Ryan - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 11:49 PM EDT (#126391) #
I'm not blaming Gibbons. It's likely that Towers asked to be taken out, like he's done before.

It just seems like a common thing with Towers. Even when he pitches 6-7 innings I can't help but think that 99% of the pitchers in the league would have been able to go even longer.

But that's why he's the fifth starter, I guess.
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Rob - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 11:50 PM EDT (#126392) #
This Canadian player who just struck out is amusing to watch. After every pitch, he steps out of the box, walks ten feet down the third base line to get the sign, then swings twice, steps in to the box, digs in, puts up the Jeter Hand, then takes two practice swings.

Sometimes he even calls time after all of that.

I can't tell you all how much I am enjoying this.
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Ron - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 11:52 PM EDT (#126393) #
It's likely that Towers asked to be taken out, like he's done before I'm unaware of Towers asking the skipper to take him out before. What game(s) did he ask to be removed?
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Magpie - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 11:55 PM EDT (#126394) #
If the pitcher is out of gas, I want him to say so. I want him acting like Jimmy Key with Cito Gaston in Game 6 of the World Series.

Not Pedro Martinez with Grady Little.

Not that we know whether that's what happened tonight anyway. I know that Towers told Tosca once he was out of gas after seven innings, and unlike most athletes, was honest about it afterwards.

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King Ryan - Tuesday, August 23 2005 @ 11:58 PM EDT (#126395) #
I very distinctly remember Towers coming out of a game after the 8th inning in a game at the end of last year when he was on his way to a shutout. Of course this was the Season From Hell, so the bullpen quickly blew the lead and the Jays lost.

Faulds and Cerutti were very critical of Gibbons for taking Towers out, but after the game it was revealed that Towers asked to come out because he was "gassed." I'm pretty sure something like that happened again this year but I can't recall as well.

Please excuse me for that brutal first sentence, by the way.
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Magpie - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:01 AM EDT (#126396) #
What game(s) did he ask to be removed?

June 19, 2004 in San Diego. He went seven innings, threw 78 pitches, and asked to come out with a 2-1 lead.

"I felt kind of tired. I hung a couple of sliders in the seventh and I just felt like I shouldn't have been out there. I feel bad saying that but I wanted to win the game."

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King Ryan - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:02 AM EDT (#126397) #
If the pitcher is out of gas, I want him to say so. I want him acting like Jimmy Key with Cito Gaston in Game 6 of the World Series.

Absolutely, Magpie. Absolutely. I'm glad he's honest about being gassed, and whatnot, but the fact that he gets gassed after 70 pitches is a problem.

Oh and I know there are other factors. I know it was hot, and he was battling, and it's Yankee Stadium, and all that stuff. But there are not many other pitchers in the league that would have come out of the game in that situation, considering the importance of the game, the closeness of the game, and how well he had pitched so far (both runs came on sac flies, man.)

All I'm saying is that if Towers was truely out of gas at that point, then that IS a weakness. It's one reason he's not in the Cy Young running this year. ;)

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Rob - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:02 AM EDT (#126398) #
Six Russian players said Barry Bonds is their favourite player...Nobody from Canada did...The Canadian first baseman likes to drink an iced cappuccino before every game...Harold Reynolds sounds like an idiot when he talks about Russian players.

The Canadian players try to act like big leaguers too much -- it's kind of unsettling. I swear, the shortstop just did the same thing Jeter does on grounders up the middle.

This pitcher seems wild -- now they're warming up another Canadian in the bullpen. In the first inning? I guess he is starting to lose it. He hung a curve there.

Wait, they throw curveballs at age 12?

Oh, and Towers asked to come out once last year -- possibly the San Diego game. I think he was at 70 pitches, and he said he was tired.
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King Ryan - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:03 AM EDT (#126399) #
<i>June 19, 2004 in San Diego. He went seven innings, threw 78 pitches, and asked to come out with a 2-1 lead.</i>

Wow. I guess that tells you how bad I am at remembering details. Did the bullpen at least blow the lead?
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Magpie - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:04 AM EDT (#126400) #
And yes, it was the Season from Hell, and the bullpen instantly coughed up the game. Justin Speier was the arsonist for the occasion...
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VBF - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:07 AM EDT (#126401) #
The thing that bugs me is the overcoaching. Yes, it is the 'world series', but let the catcher call the game a bit. Harold Reynolds looks like he couldn't care less.

"Joey.........Del....Delano..................he likes.....harry potter......all of them...."

Very few of these kids will actualy play significant baseball in their career.
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King Ryan - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:12 AM EDT (#126402) #
That's a new one. Trying to go first-to-third on a sac bunt?
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Rob - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:12 AM EDT (#126403) #
2-1 Canada through the first. That wild Canadian pitcher got a couple of strikeouts, so he can't be all bad.

Sam Ryan is mighty scary, but ESPN did a good job on the Jason Bay thing.

Justin Atkinson, the kid who looked like Jeter on a grounder up the middle, also looks like him at the plate. Do they teach the Jeter Hand thing at all levels now? It seems like everyone does it. Also, is it normal to walk halfway up the third base line to get a call from the coach?

Oh, he was safe! Bad call! Atkinson went first to third on a bunt and was phantom-tagged out. He is my new favourite player.

If you know how this game ended, don't tell me.
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VBF - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#126404) #
Yes, everyone does the damn Jeter hand thing in all levels of minor level baseball. Not because Jeter does it, but since it just carries from one person to the next.

I model my swing and stance after Vernon and Dave Berg, who did have simliar stances.
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Alex0888 - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:17 AM EDT (#126405) #
I hate Miguel Batista. I've never trusted him.
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Alex0888 - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:21 AM EDT (#126406) #
No, it's not the NPSE network!
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Rob - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:21 AM EDT (#126407) #
I hate Miguel Batista. I've never trusted him.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but way to contribute to the discussion!

I want to see umpires call time every time someone does the Jeter Hand thing. That's what they're doing, after all.

ESPN sure is pushing this "Russians are oblivious to baseball and they have to come to the US to learn baseball" party line. Bah. Wait, the Russian first baseman is named Anton Smirnoff? I can't pass that one up, I'm sorry.

The ESPN announcers sound like they hate having to do this. Put VBF, Ryan and myself in the booth, now there's a show. And yes, this counts as Instant Replay talk. It came on TSN after the Jays game!

Kids holding up ESPN signs as "NPSE" -- the announcer says it's an Asian sign, reading from right to left. I don't know, maybe I'm alone, but I don't like that.

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Rob - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:27 AM EDT (#126408) #
Is there any reason to expect a slow grounder to turn into a 4-6-3 double play? No, and that's why I love this. Anything can happen. We've already seen the classic Outfield Crash, an out-of-nowhere Hot Dog Diving Catch and the Super Wild Throw To First...throw in first-to-third on a sac bunt and can a pickle involving 13 throws be far behind?

Great move by TSN to show this. I just wish it was on before 12:25 in the morning.
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Jacko - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:32 AM EDT (#126409) #
re: Towers

Geez, tough crowd.

The man is making 358K this year, and he's currently ranked:

28th in ERA (4.05)
25th in IP (150.2)
32nd in WHIP (1.35)

For chrissakes, what are people expecting? It was the same thing with Woody Williams. People bitched about him being a 6IP (or 100 pitch) starter. Which turned out to be a pretty good thing after he left town. Given the current state of our starting rotation, Towers has been a saviour. He's basically our #2 right now, and he's done a fantastic job.

re: Batista

I'm just tired of him now. The Matsui HR was forgivable, but what the hell was he thinking throwing _anything_ near the strikezone after getting Escalona down 0-2? Guys like that get themselves out swinging at pitches outside the zone.


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DepecheJay - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:39 AM EDT (#126410) #
Just got back from the game and words can't describe the depths of my despair. What a great game gone to waste because of Miguel Batista once again. And the sad thing is, I can't even say I'm not surprised, I almost expected it. I'm not going to pin this on the offense, or Vern, or anyone else because they did their jobs and got some big hits. The blame goes SOLELY on the shoulders of Miguel Batista. The team gives you the lead and you promptly get abused and give it right back. And to make matters worse, you just meltdown and throw the game away.

This game hurts in so many ways, you just can't give away wins like this.
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Rob - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:42 AM EDT (#126411) #
Fielding a ball with your glove between your legs and your legs wide open? This kid is Canadian, hasn't he heard of the five-hole?

End of 3, 2-1 for the Canadians. Anyone know why they are wearing green? Has anything related to Canada ever been green? Am I the only one following this game now? You people have no national pride!
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Rob - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 12:52 AM EDT (#126412) #
Coach: "Canada on 3!"

Kids: "Canada!"

Coach: (sighs) "1...2...3..."

Kids: "Canada!"
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VBF - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 01:09 AM EDT (#126413) #
Rob, it's their team colours form their town they are representing (Surrey, BC). They keep their regular uniform colours, but just add the name of the country on the cresting.

They're not the best compilation of players in Canada; they're the team that won the opportunity to respresent them in the Ntaional Canadian Tournament.



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VBF - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 01:14 AM EDT (#126414) #
Jays fans, I present you with this very relative song during this five game losing streak:

The light in the window is a crack in the sky
A stairway to darkness in the blink of an eye
A levee of tears to learn she'll never be coming back
The man in the dark will bring another attack

Your momma told you that you're not supposed to talk to strangers
Look in the mirror tell me do you uthink your life's in danger
here, yeah

No more tears
No more tears
No more tears
No more tears

Another day passes as the night closes in
The red light goes on to say it's time to begin
I see the man around the corner waiting, does he see me?
I close my eyes and wait to hear the sound of someone screaming here

No more tears
No more tears
No more tears
No more tears

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VBF - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 01:16 AM EDT (#126415) #
That first verse is so relative to this season it's not even funny. I knew it was an bad omen that I had it stuck in my head.
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Mike D - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 01:26 AM EDT (#126416) #
I was there too, DepecheJay. When the Yankees tied it at 2, I thought "OK, let's go get 'em." When they tied it at 3, I thought "It's ours in extras."

But when they tied it at 4, it crushed my spirit. It became what Bill Simmons calls a "Guillotine Game," in which your team isn't losing but you know the death blow is coming.

The Iraq interlude in the seventh inning, Rudy Giuliani in the front row and three Yankee comebacks. Republicans and a Bronx Bomber win. What could be worse?!? Maybe three defensive misplays by the O-Dog. And that happened, too.

It always seems to go this way in Yankee Stadium. It's death by a thousand cuts, culminating in a seeing-eye single by a lousy hitter.

Attending games there as a Jays fan is like going to the opera and fervently rooting for nobody to sing.
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King Ryan - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 01:44 AM EDT (#126417) #
Jacko: I was the only one critisicing Towers in this thread. There's no need to be vague.

And I realize all that you said. I was just pointing out a weakness to Ron because he...argh forget it. I just keep repeating myself. It was a great start. Towers ia an excellent number five pitcher. Batista was disappointing tonight. Whatever. Go Canada.



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jvictor - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 02:12 AM EDT (#126418) #
Ok. I surender my seat on the playoff band wagon. But I said at the start of the season that if only one team comes out of the AL East that would be a successful season. It's still in the cards. Go Jays.
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obo - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 02:24 AM EDT (#126419) #
I was there as well. Sad ending to an exciting game. The most frustrating part for me is it looked like the Jays should have been destroying Leiter, and the pitch count supported the view that he was struggling, but he got out of there having allowed only 3 runs through 7 - with the 3rd run allowed by the bullpen in the 8th.

Very nice game by Towers. They lined a few balls right at fielders but for the most part he kept things under control and it's too bad he didn't get a win out of a fine outing.
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slitheringslider - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 02:53 AM EDT (#126420) #
The glimmer of hope that I have about a possible playoff run has been extinguished the last few days. Valiant effort on the whole, including Miguel Batista, even though I have to say I was on the verge of a heart attack the whole of the ninth inning, but Miguel kindly relived me of the suspense by giving up that home run to godzilla.

Honestly, I know it's tough not to blame Batista for this lost, but it's not easy protecting a 1 run lead against the high powered Yankee lineup, less of all in Yankees stadium.

Look on the bright side, didn't the Oakland A's win 20 in a row a few years back? anything is possible, let just hope.... 20 in a row... that would bring us to 83-62 by months end... we can only hope
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Jacko - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 08:11 AM EDT (#126426) #
King Ryan:

I was trying to reply directly to you, but my dang web browser keeps going back to the front page when I try to "reply to this comment".

Sorry for the mini-rant. I get my panties in a twist when people criticize players for what they're bad at while (seemingly) losing sight of the good.

However, I am done defending Batista. Since the start of July:

- his ERA is over 5.00
- he's registered 4/5 of his losses and 4/5 of his blown saves

He does have a nice rubber arm and manages to get the job done on _some_ nights, but I think the Jays can do better. In 2006, I would like to see Batista in the starting rotation to start the year, and then move into a swingman role as the kiddie corps (Marcum, McGowan, Banks, Jackson, Purcey) get promoted to the majors.
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HoJu - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#126437) #
Hey Rob, did u notice that none of the Canadian players in the LLWS listed a Jay as their favorite player. Gagne and Walker did get mentions but no Jays. I think Ichiro got the most mentions. I realize they are out in BC but I was hoping that the Jays had some young fans out there.
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smcs - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#126438) #
FYI, Canada takes on Japan in Quarter-Finals action today at the LLWS. It will be on TSN live at 3:00 p.m. and will most likely be on again at 11:00 p.m.
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Marc Hulet - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#126488) #
If you look at the numbers, Josh Towers is probably the best No. 5 starter in the game, unfortunately he is pitching in the No. 3 hole right how, which you cannot fault him for.

No. 5 Starters (as of Aug. 18):
Team, Name, ERA, W/L Record, Games Started, Innings

Blue Jays
Josh Towers 4.12 10-9 25 150.2

Angels
Ervin Santana 4.62 6-5 14 78.0
Athletics
Kirk Saarloos 4.15 8-6 20 119.1
Rays
Hideo Nomo 7.24 5-8 19 100.2 (since released)
Indians
Scott Elarton 4.58 7-6 22 131.2
Mariners
Aaron Sele 5.66 6-12 21 116.0 (since released)
Orioles
Bruce Chen 4.03 10-6 23 143.0
Rangers
Pedro Astacio 6.04 2-8 12 67.0
Red Sox
Wade Miller 4.95 4-4 16 91.0
Royals
JP Howell 7.56 1-4 8 36.1
Tigers
Sean Douglass 4.56 4-2 9 50.1
Twins
Joe Mays 5-8 5.03 22 130.2
White Sox
Orlando Hernandez 4.67 8-5 16 94.1
Yankees
Jaret Wright 7.62 3-2 5 26.0

Astros
Wandy Rodriguez 6.09 8-5 15 85.2
Braves
Kyle Davies 4.56 6-3 13 73.0
Brewers
Victor Santos 4.21 4-11 23 132.2
Cardinals
Jason Marquis 4.22 9-11 24 149.1
Cubs
Jerome Williams 5.11 3-6 12 72.0
D-backs
Claudio Vargas 4.57 6-6 15 84.2
Dodgers
DJ Houlton 5.31 4-6 11 83.0
Giants
Brad Hennessey 5.68 4-5 12 63.1
Marlins
Al Leiter 6.65 3-7 16 80.0 (since released)
Metropolitans
Kaz Ishii 5.04 3-9 16 89.1
Nationals
Ryan Drese 4.69 3-6 10 55.2
Padres
Tim Stauffer 5.33 3-6 14 81.0
Phillies
Vincente Padilla 4.65 5-11 19 100.2
Pirates
Josh Fogg 5.07 6-8 24 142.0
Reds
Luke Hudson 7.35 4-6 12 56.1
Rockies
Byung-Hung Kim 5.33 3-9 14 103.0
[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#126489) #
Josh Towers has allowed 4.51 R/G per year. The league average is 4.8 and the RC is a favourable hitting environment. His peripheral numbers are entirely consistent with his runs alllowed/game; the DER behind him is actually lower than team or league average. If you want to call him a #3 pitcher,he's been perfectly fine at that. The 1984 Tigers, one of the best teams of the last 25 years, had Morris, Petry and Milt Wilcox at the top of their rotation, and Towers is about as good as Wilcox. The Jay starting pitching with Halladay, Chacin and yes, Josh Towers, has been a definite strength.
[ Reply to This ]
Jonny German - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#126496) #
According to one empirical definition, a #3 starter gives you a VORP of 20.3 and tosses 163 innings. Towers is currently 61st amongst Major League pitchers with a VORP of 23.6, and as Marc notes above has pitched 150-2/3 innings thus far.

I think the tendency is to say "Average" while thinking "Average for a World Series contender", which is why Average is so consistently over-rated.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Towers this offseason... do the Jays believe in him yet, will they write him in to the 2006 rotation? Do other teams believe in him, will he have good trade value?

[ Reply to This ]
Magpie - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#126498) #
Nobody will ever believe in Towers. He doesn't sting the radar guns.

You're allowed to not throw hard if you're left-handed, but if you're right-handed, they're not going to be convinced unless you perform like, oh, Greg Maddux...

[ Reply to This ]
John Northey - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 06:34 PM EDT (#126500) #
Interesting discussion on #5 starters. The old article mentioned listed as potentials: Ryan Glynn, Gustavo Chacin, and Scott Downs as top choices and Chad Gaudin, Seung Song, and Josh Banks as others with a shot. The article was written on February 24 2005 by Jonny German. Good calls on Chacin, Downs, and Gaudin. So the question is what happened to the others?

Glynn: 6.47 ERA in 37 IP with 11 BB and 23 K and 6 HR's before going to Oakland and doing poorly in the majors (6.88 ERA and it looks lucky given his 5 HR given up in 17 IP) but decent in their minors (3.00 ERA just 4 HR in 48 IP with 46 K but 19 BB)

Seung Song: Currently in the SF system, going 4.46 ERA 38 IP 5 HR 24 BB 23 K in AAA after doing well in the lower levels (2.21 ERA over 73.1 IP).

Josh Banks: in AA 3.77 ERA over 150 IP with 17 HR and 9 BB and 133 K's. Wow. 9 BB and 8 wins, lets hope he gets lucky and grabs another 2 wins before the season ends so he could have more W's than BB's. He has a real shot in 2006.
[ Reply to This ]
CeeBee - Wednesday, August 24 2005 @ 08:11 PM EDT (#126501) #
Pitches seen per plate appearance. Not really on topic but it,s interesting to note that 2 Jays are in the bottom 10, but none in the top ten. Not too surpriseing that the 2 Jays are Vernon and Shea either.
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050824&content_id=1181903&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
[ Reply to This ]
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