The first four Yankee batters of the game scored, and that was basically all she wrote.
The Jays return home with a 5-8 mark on their 13-day road trip.
As you say the first 4 batters scored and that turned out to be the game, but I can't say that I was a fan of leaving Chacin in to face Jeter (who was already 2 for 3) in the 6th after having thrown around 110 pitches. Having said that, it's just about the first time this year that I would second guess Gibbons for leaving a starter in too long.
Lot's of chances for the Jays to get back into it offensively but no luck. As for the AB's by Wells today, what can you say? I may have missed one but I don't think he swung at a strike today. C'est la vie with Wells.
Lot's of chances for the Jays to get back into it offensively but no luck. As for the AB's by Wells today, what can you say? I may have missed one but I don't think he swung at a strike today. C'est la vie with Wells.
"As for the AB's by Wells today, what can you say? I may have missed one but I don't think he swung at a strike today"
I thought he was one of the better Blue Jay hitters today. He was one of the few players that managed to get a hit off Chacon, and he hit the ball hard on 2 seperate occasions where A-Rod and Sheffield had to make nice plays to stop Wells from getting extra bases.
I'm not exactly sure how anyone can bash Vernon Wells after his performance recently.
I thought he was one of the better Blue Jay hitters today. He was one of the few players that managed to get a hit off Chacon, and he hit the ball hard on 2 seperate occasions where A-Rod and Sheffield had to make nice plays to stop Wells from getting extra bases.
I'm not exactly sure how anyone can bash Vernon Wells after his performance recently.
I hate it when I sleep through the ballgame.
It sure looks like the Yankees have figured out Chacin.
With the Jays basically out of the playoff running, does management shut down Doc for the rest of the year?
It sure looks like the Yankees have figured out Chacin.
With the Jays basically out of the playoff running, does management shut down Doc for the rest of the year?
Shawn Chacon is a revelation after I was horribly disappointed he was the marquee pickup for the Yankees at the deadline ... 3-1, 1.80 in five appearances since being acquired? I always thought if Doyle Alexander had his 1987 Tiger run in pinstripes, he'd be in Monument Park right now (and I'm only exaggerating a tiny bit). Maybe now we're finding out.
JaysFan0912 posted the below comment, but I accidentally deleted it. Any spelling errors are mine, but the capitalization is his.
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I was thinking about wells, and I think he is one of the guys that may be traded come the offseason. His slump at the start of the year, relaxed attitude, and that careless error in may might make wells less valuable to jp than some other gms. While everybody speculates that hinske/koskie/batista/cat/etc. might be traded, wells is the 2nd best player on the team, and will probalby fetch the most.
On the other hand, there isn't any player with a decent bat, in AAA/team who can play cf the way wells can. A better question - who can even play average cf -- I don't think rios can play there, and johnson is subpar.
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I was thinking about wells, and I think he is one of the guys that may be traded come the offseason. His slump at the start of the year, relaxed attitude, and that careless error in may might make wells less valuable to jp than some other gms. While everybody speculates that hinske/koskie/batista/cat/etc. might be traded, wells is the 2nd best player on the team, and will probalby fetch the most.
On the other hand, there isn't any player with a decent bat, in AAA/team who can play cf the way wells can. A better question - who can even play average cf -- I don't think rios can play there, and johnson is subpar.
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Rios came up as a CF. Last season, Griffin wrote about Rios prior to his call-up, saying that he was considered so good in CF that he might force Wells to right.
Clearly, that didn't happen, and Rios hasn't played centre in some time, but I don't think it's a crazy notion.
Clearly, that didn't happen, and Rios hasn't played centre in some time, but I don't think it's a crazy notion.
Wells... is one of the guys that may be traded come the offseason.
Not a chance. Not a chance. He's a Gold Glove defender at an important position, he's 26 years old, he's your best hitter, and you have him under contract at a bargain rate for the next two years after this one.
Wells is precisely the kind of player a smart building team - like this one - would be trying to get.
There's a better chance of them trading Halladay.
Magpie, I disagree.
There were already rumours that the Jays were talking to Texas about a Wells Texeira or Blalock deal, and I can see them doing something like that.
Trading Wells wouldn't be for a 3rd starter or bullpen help, it would be a blockbuster that gets them a masher. I can see them doing something like that if they think that they can get anotehr masher to play the outfield. Trade Wells for, say, Texeira, who now plays first, move Rios to Center, new masher plays left or right. Hillenbrand DHs, Koskie stays where he is.
There were already rumours that the Jays were talking to Texas about a Wells Texeira or Blalock deal, and I can see them doing something like that.
Trading Wells wouldn't be for a 3rd starter or bullpen help, it would be a blockbuster that gets them a masher. I can see them doing something like that if they think that they can get anotehr masher to play the outfield. Trade Wells for, say, Texeira, who now plays first, move Rios to Center, new masher plays left or right. Hillenbrand DHs, Koskie stays where he is.
and that careless error in
Two of your points include the made up opinion that Vernon Wells doesn't care.
Why doesn't he care, JaysFan90210? Did he tell you that?
Since when does Vernon Wells not care about winning games?
All I can say is, this team would be lost without Vernon Wells. Both on the offensive and defensive fronts...
All I can say is, this team would be lost without Vernon Wells. Both on the offensive and defensive fronts...
It sure looks like the Yankees have figured out Chacin.
After the first 4 batters, Chacin was fairly effective (as Jerry Howarth pointed out on the radio, which I listened to on 980 Peterborough while driving along Hwy 7 this afternoon). At least, until the 6th, when he probably was tiring.
Why doesn't he care, JaysFan90210? Did he tell you that?
I never said he doesn't care. The error he made at the start of the season, was a lazy play, where he casually fielded a ball not noticing a runner going to second. I mentioned it because it seemed to irk tons of people at the time... perhaps as one of the reasosn why jp might not value him as much as other gms, as he likes "dirtbags". The trade talk with the rangers about a VW trade shows wells is not an untouchable.
I said wells is the second best player on the team, and his stats show he is one of the best players in the game. In terms of hitting, like paul d. said, we need a masher badly, and if you don't get one through free agency ...
I never said he doesn't care. The error he made at the start of the season, was a lazy play, where he casually fielded a ball not noticing a runner going to second. I mentioned it because it seemed to irk tons of people at the time... perhaps as one of the reasosn why jp might not value him as much as other gms, as he likes "dirtbags". The trade talk with the rangers about a VW trade shows wells is not an untouchable.
I said wells is the second best player on the team, and his stats show he is one of the best players in the game. In terms of hitting, like paul d. said, we need a masher badly, and if you don't get one through free agency ...
Trading Wells is not the way to get one of Wilner's Big Scary Bats.
He's the best hitter on the team, he plays a great CF -- aw, screw it -- I'll just go with what Magpie said.
He's the best hitter on the team, he plays a great CF -- aw, screw it -- I'll just go with what Magpie said.
One braincramp of a play should have no mention in trade rumours around him. That one play means absolutely nothing in reasons to trade him. It was a braincramp. A bad braincramp, yes, but a braincramp none the less. The very reason that he's only had one is enough to put it to rest.
I would welcome any trade that saw the team improve, but it's got to be a steal if Vernon's name is mentioned. Every player is touchable in the sense that JP will entertain any requests. I'd imagine you'd have to 'Wow' JP for anything to go through.
I guess I'll just never understand when things turn sour why fans turn on the better players.
Trade Wells for, say, Texeira, who now plays first
That would be utterly, utterly insane.
Texas doesn't have any Big Scary Bats. They have guys who put up bright and shiny numbers because they play half their games in the best hitter's park in the American League. Here is what Mark Teixeira has done away from Arlington this year:
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS 270 33 68 15 1 9 38 26 5 65 1 0 .252 .329 .415 .744The Blue Jays already have a first baseman who hits like that.
And oh by the way, Texas would never, ever make that deal.
I don't mean to imply that they should trade Wells, are that they're goign to, but that I think that declaring that there's absolutely no way Wells gets traded is wrong.
I wouldn't be shopping Wells, but he certainly wouldn't be untouchable (unlike Halladay)
I wouldn't be shopping Wells, but he certainly wouldn't be untouchable (unlike Halladay)
<i> And oh by the way, Texas would never, ever make that deal. </i>
Why? The rumours were that it was Texas that approached the Jays. Texeira won't sign a contract and goes to abritration every year, and Wells is also from Texas.
Magpie, or anyone I guess, I know it's been shown that players who leave Coors don't actually hit as poorly as their road numbers, and I'm wondering if that's true for other parks.
I find it very hard to believe that Texeira would put up a .744 OPS in Toronto.
Why? The rumours were that it was Texas that approached the Jays. Texeira won't sign a contract and goes to abritration every year, and Wells is also from Texas.
Magpie, or anyone I guess, I know it's been shown that players who leave Coors don't actually hit as poorly as their road numbers, and I'm wondering if that's true for other parks.
I find it very hard to believe that Texeira would put up a .744 OPS in Toronto.
Teixeira is a true rising star. I would be shocked if the Jays were willing to trade him for Wells.
The Jays need to go forward, not sideways or backward. Trading their best everyday player for another very good player is not progress, it is just an unsubstantiated rumor perpetuated by people with nothing better to talk about. Toronto needs to trade prospects for major league players or sign free agents and give up draft picks. Why are we even talking about this? This is insane! I guarantee that if the Jays had won today, we would not even be talking about this. Unbelievable how 1/162 or 0.6% of the season can cause people to start speculating about trading Vernon Wells. I am well aware you need to give something of value to get something of value but trading Vernon Wells is not the answer. You can't say never on the technicality of, say, a Wells for Pujols trade, but the list of players, especially when considering salary and defense, that I would trade for Vernon Wells is an extremely short list.
Wells is hitting .283/.330/.500 this year; this is almost identical to his career mark. The best part is that he is only 26, and might do a little better next year.
Combining offence and defence, Wells and Hudson have had the same value over the last 3 years. Wells' WARP is 17.9; Hudson's 17.8. Hudson performs essentially the same role for the pitching staff that Wells does for the offence, and in both cases, there are potential replacements with some questions (Rios, Adams). Personally, I wouldn't be in a hurry to trade either.
Combining offence and defence, Wells and Hudson have had the same value over the last 3 years. Wells' WARP is 17.9; Hudson's 17.8. Hudson performs essentially the same role for the pitching staff that Wells does for the offence, and in both cases, there are potential replacements with some questions (Rios, Adams). Personally, I wouldn't be in a hurry to trade either.
I was going to post this half an hour ago... things are happening to me!
Anyway, here's what happens to Hank Blalock when he leaves the comfy confines of Ameriquest:
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS 270 22 64 16 0 4 21 18 0 54 0 0 .237 .284 .341 .624I'm not entirely sold on the Texas hitters.
Texas' entire infield is very overrated indeed.
But check out Wells' road numbers. They aren't pretty either.
But check out Wells' road numbers. They aren't pretty either.
Young, Teixeira, Blalock, Soriano, Mench
I think these five every day hitters are as formidable a core as any batting order in the American League. What Texas lacks - besides a pitching staff - is a leadoff hitter. That would make this offense even better.
With Adrian Gonzalez looking to be ready for steady big league work now, maybe Teixeira is expendable, particularly if they can't find any takers for Nevin's services. Particularly with his play this season and the sheer size of his employment contract.
Someone on that team will probably be moved this winter. Maybe Mench. At any rate I hope Texas likes some of Toronto's young pitching because I can see these two teams matching up nicely.
I think these five every day hitters are as formidable a core as any batting order in the American League. What Texas lacks - besides a pitching staff - is a leadoff hitter. That would make this offense even better.
With Adrian Gonzalez looking to be ready for steady big league work now, maybe Teixeira is expendable, particularly if they can't find any takers for Nevin's services. Particularly with his play this season and the sheer size of his employment contract.
Someone on that team will probably be moved this winter. Maybe Mench. At any rate I hope Texas likes some of Toronto's young pitching because I can see these two teams matching up nicely.
The Rangers already have an excellent leadoff hitter. I'm sure the Rangers brass is more than pleased with Delluci's .385 OBP.
Home/Road Splits 2002-2004
Mark Teixeira AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS Away 534 67 129 29 1 27 66 54 12 114 2 1 .242 .324 .451 .775 Home 540 100 161 34 6 37 130 58 12 123 3 2 .298 .377 .589 .966 Vernon Wells Away 940 150 272 55 5 42 148 56 5 133 14 3 .289 .330 .493 .823 Home 882 137 256 62 6 37 136 64 7 115 8 4 .290 .340 .500 .840Teixeira is only 25 years old, and he is a fine defensive first basemen. Of course, Wells in only 26 years old, and he's a fine defensive centre fielder.
I think Texas is making the same mistake that the Red Sox and the Cubs spent almost the entire twentieth century making. Teams that play in great hiter's parks always think they have a much better offense than they actually do. By the same token, they generally believe that their pitchers are garbage. They're usually wrong on both counts.
Playing in Ameriquest, if Texas is not leading the league in runs scored, they simply do not have a good offense.
What I find frustrating about Wells,and he's no rookie,is the at bat today like many he's had this season that is lack of what.............a good eye,patience,call it what you will but come on Chacon was struggling bigtime with his control and Wells goes swinging at dirt for 3 straight.Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
He reminds me,chances wise to Joe Carter,92,93,who seemed to come up to bat half the time with ducks a l'orange.Yeah I know it wasn't 50% but Wellsey has had so many games this year where even a good at bat would have sufficed.
Today he could have taken a lesson from the rook Adams.Damn man see some pitches,especially if the pitcher is having a hard time finding the plate.
We all know that this team needs a big bat,maybe that's part of Wells problem,no "power"protection behind him so the pitcher can nibble a bit more.
He just seems so vulnerable to the outside pitch,a lot of the time,still not sure about having such an open stance,left foot pointing too far towards left field.
I don't know............I just have seen too many games this year that are winnable.
I'm one frustrated fan today.
He reminds me,chances wise to Joe Carter,92,93,who seemed to come up to bat half the time with ducks a l'orange.Yeah I know it wasn't 50% but Wellsey has had so many games this year where even a good at bat would have sufficed.
Today he could have taken a lesson from the rook Adams.Damn man see some pitches,especially if the pitcher is having a hard time finding the plate.
We all know that this team needs a big bat,maybe that's part of Wells problem,no "power"protection behind him so the pitcher can nibble a bit more.
He just seems so vulnerable to the outside pitch,a lot of the time,still not sure about having such an open stance,left foot pointing too far towards left field.
I don't know............I just have seen too many games this year that are winnable.
I'm one frustrated fan today.
Changing a players hitting style is such a difficult thing to do, as research have shown that patience is not a thing that can be learned. Besides, being patient does not equate a good hitter. There are great hitter on both spectrums. If he could bang out 30+ home runs and hit close to .300 every year by swinging at some bad pitches, then so be it. Asking him to take a few more pitches might make him second guess everything, and the production might drop as a result. I know it is painful to watch at times (I do sometimes dread watching Vernon Wells up at certain situation, when both he and I know that splitter in the dirt is coming yet he swings right through it), but it is a flaw we have to live with.
Wells ...reminds me, chances wise to Joe Carter...
Ahem. I made that specific comparison back in June (in a perhaps excessively lengthy Game Report. They are indeed very similar types of hitters - Wells actually looks a little better.
But if Joe Carter had been the best hitter on the 1992-93 Blue Jays, they would never have played in a World Series, let alone won two of them. Wells, like Carter before him, is an RBI guy. He's a complementary hitter, and every offense can use one. But the championship teams both had at least two hitters clearly better than Carter (Alomar and Winfield in 1992, Alomar, Molitor and Olerud in 1993.)
Very true, Magpie. I decided to go through all the world series winners of the past few years and look at how many *hitters* their teams had that were better than Wells. I decided to judge them just on one quick stat, so I picked OPS+. Wells had an OPS+ of 103 last year. His numbers are up a bit this year though, so he's probably at 107-110.
Here are all the hitters that Championship teams had with OPS+'s that were higher than 110:
2004: Red Sox 5 (Varitek, Millar, Damon, Ramirez, Ortiz)
2003: Marlins 3 (Rodriguez, Lee, Lowell)
2002: Angels 6 (Spiezio, Kennedy, Glaus, Anderson, Salmon, Fullmer)
2001: D-Backs 3 (Grace, Gonzalez, Sanders)
2000: SoS 4 (Posada, Jeter, Williams, Justice)
1999: SoS 6 (Tino, Knoblauch, Jeter, Williams, O'Neill, Davis)
1998: SoS 7 (Posada, Tino, Brosius, Jeter, Williams, O'Neill, Strawberry)
1997: Marlins 4 (Johnson, Bonilla, Alou, Sheffield)
1996: SoS 5 (Duncan, Williams, O'Neill, Strawberry, Raines)
1995: Braves 4 (Lopez, McGriff, Justice, Klesko)
1994: Expos 3 (Alou, Walker, Cordero) ;-)
1993: Blue Jays 5 (Olerud, Alomar, Fernandez, Carter, Molitor)
1992: Blue Jays 5 (Olerud, Alomar, Winfield, Candy, Carter)
1991: Twins 5 (Harper, Hrbeck, Puckett, Mack, Davis)
1990: Reds 4 (Duncan, Sabo, Davis, Morris)
1989: A's 5 (McGwire, Lansford, Rickey, Parker, Canseco)
1988: Dodgers 2 (Gibson, Marshall)
1987: Twins 3 (Hrbek, Puckett, Brunansky)
1986: Mets 7 (Everyone except Santana)
1985: Royals 3 (Balboni, Brett, McRae)
Now, certainly OPS+ is not the be all and end all, and some of these players probably are not better than Vernon. However, you can't argue the point. Championship teams usually have at least 3 hitters that are as good as or better than Vernon Wells, and they often have more.
What this has to do with anything I'm not sure, but it was fun. And what else am I going to do at 4:35AM? Sleep? Bah.
Here are all the hitters that Championship teams had with OPS+'s that were higher than 110:
2004: Red Sox 5 (Varitek, Millar, Damon, Ramirez, Ortiz)
2003: Marlins 3 (Rodriguez, Lee, Lowell)
2002: Angels 6 (Spiezio, Kennedy, Glaus, Anderson, Salmon, Fullmer)
2001: D-Backs 3 (Grace, Gonzalez, Sanders)
2000: SoS 4 (Posada, Jeter, Williams, Justice)
1999: SoS 6 (Tino, Knoblauch, Jeter, Williams, O'Neill, Davis)
1998: SoS 7 (Posada, Tino, Brosius, Jeter, Williams, O'Neill, Strawberry)
1997: Marlins 4 (Johnson, Bonilla, Alou, Sheffield)
1996: SoS 5 (Duncan, Williams, O'Neill, Strawberry, Raines)
1995: Braves 4 (Lopez, McGriff, Justice, Klesko)
1994: Expos 3 (Alou, Walker, Cordero) ;-)
1993: Blue Jays 5 (Olerud, Alomar, Fernandez, Carter, Molitor)
1992: Blue Jays 5 (Olerud, Alomar, Winfield, Candy, Carter)
1991: Twins 5 (Harper, Hrbeck, Puckett, Mack, Davis)
1990: Reds 4 (Duncan, Sabo, Davis, Morris)
1989: A's 5 (McGwire, Lansford, Rickey, Parker, Canseco)
1988: Dodgers 2 (Gibson, Marshall)
1987: Twins 3 (Hrbek, Puckett, Brunansky)
1986: Mets 7 (Everyone except Santana)
1985: Royals 3 (Balboni, Brett, McRae)
Now, certainly OPS+ is not the be all and end all, and some of these players probably are not better than Vernon. However, you can't argue the point. Championship teams usually have at least 3 hitters that are as good as or better than Vernon Wells, and they often have more.
What this has to do with anything I'm not sure, but it was fun. And what else am I going to do at 4:35AM? Sleep? Bah.
'Championship teams usually have at least 3 hitters that are as good as or better than Vernon Wells, and they often have more.'
They certainly do. Which is why you need to collect players like Vernon Wells and not trade them - unless you think you've found a trading partner stupid enough to give you back multiple good players.
If there is anyone on the Jays outside of Halladay who might be untouchable it's Vernon Wells.
He gets an unfair amount of criticism for not "carrying the team" whatever that means. He's more of a #5 hitter than a #3 hitter but his value as a two-way player is undeniable. He's not going to carry a team offensively nor should it ever be expected of him. But find me a gold glove calibre centerfielder whom you can plug into the middle of a lineup and not be laughed at. It's not that easy.
There is no way the Jays should even ENTERTAIN the idea of trading Vernon Wells. Keep him here for the last two years of his contract and as long as he doesn't go into the tank, try to extend him beyond that.
The Jays don't need to replace Vernon Wells. They need to add standout offensive players around him. Because there aren't any at the moment. And if Wells is your best hitter you don't have a very threatening lineup to begin with. He's basically a mix of Joe Carter and Torii Hunter with a quicker bat.
He gets an unfair amount of criticism for not "carrying the team" whatever that means. He's more of a #5 hitter than a #3 hitter but his value as a two-way player is undeniable. He's not going to carry a team offensively nor should it ever be expected of him. But find me a gold glove calibre centerfielder whom you can plug into the middle of a lineup and not be laughed at. It's not that easy.
There is no way the Jays should even ENTERTAIN the idea of trading Vernon Wells. Keep him here for the last two years of his contract and as long as he doesn't go into the tank, try to extend him beyond that.
The Jays don't need to replace Vernon Wells. They need to add standout offensive players around him. Because there aren't any at the moment. And if Wells is your best hitter you don't have a very threatening lineup to begin with. He's basically a mix of Joe Carter and Torii Hunter with a quicker bat.