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"The only constant factor to be found in my thinking over the years has been opposition to accepted opinions."
  -  Pierre Trudeau

Bill James, who hasn't had much to say about the subject over the years, offered up some provocative thoughts about how the Steroid Era will look down the road.

To make a long story short, he thinks it's ultimately going to have no impact at all on things like the Hall of Fame, and he suspects that in 40 years or so people will certainly have a very different perspective on the matter. If they're not wondering what we were so excited about.

Good old Bill. He has four points to make:

1) Steroids, or their descendants, are the human future. Steroids, he observes, help athletes fight back against the inevitable process of aging. Then, in the purest Trudeau fashion, he innocently asks what's wrong with that. He proceeds to  answer his own question. With a twist.

What’s wrong with that is that steroids may help keep players “young” at some risk to their health, and the use of steroids by athletes may lead non-athletes to risk their health as well.    But the fact is that, with time, the use of drugs like steroids will not disappear from our culture.   It will, in fact, grow, eventually becoming so common that it might almost be said to be ubiquitous.   Everybody wants to stay young.   As we move forward in time, more and more people are GOING to use more and more drugs in an effort to stay young.  Many of these drugs are going to be steroids or the descendants of steroids.

Which means that come the brave new world, when the ice caps have melted and pestilence and famine are ravaging the planet - I'm going to miss out on all this, I fear - the baseball players of the last fifteen years can at least be comforted by knowing that they will no longer be regarded as semi-criminals. They're going to look more like pioneers.  This is an extremely novel notion.

I personally have to believe that chemical enhancements did considerably more than keep players young - I look at the career paths of some of the late 90s sluggers and I can only say that something made these players better. They didn't maintain what they had when they were 27 - they attained, in their late 30s, a level they had never before achieved.

2)  The slippery slope phenomena. "Once some players who have been associated with steroids are in the Hall of Fame, the argument against the others will become un-sustainable."

That's logical enough, I suppose.  I do think there's a problem in assuming that logic is going to have a significant role in this type of discussion.

3) Time heals all wounds. "History is forgiving.  Statistics endure."

True dat. There have been reports this very week that Bud Selig is reassessing baseball's position regarding Pete Rose, whose trangressions were against rules far more entrenched and far more explicit than anything Mark McGwire is alledged to have done. With enough time, anything can be forgiven. As long as I have been paying attention to baseball, there has been a significant part of the baseball community petitioning for Joe Jackson - Joe Jackson, for God's sake - to be forgiven and admitted to the Hall of Fame. Someday it may even happen. Well, obviously if you're going to give Pete Rose a pass in the fullness of time - never mind Shoeless Joe himself - it's not hard to extend the same courtesy to Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, Palmeiro and the rest.

4) The Buddy System, because "Old players play a key role in the Hall of Fame debate.  It seems unlikely to me that aging ballplayers will divide their ex-teammates neatly into classes of “steroid users” and “non-steroid users.”

That's very true - I don't pay much attention myself to the views of old players, but they do appear to carry a fair bit of weight. I think it's the main reason that Jim Rice is finally in the Hall of Fame.

So to wrap up:

was there really a rule against the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs?  At best, it is a debatable point.  The Commissioner issued edicts banning the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs....  But “rules”, in civilized society, have certain characteristics.  They are agreed to by a process in which all of the interested parties participate.    They are included in the rule book.  There is a process for enforcing them.    Someone is assigned to enforce the rule, and that authority is given the powers necessary to enforce the rule.  There are specified and reasonable punishments for violation of the rules.

            The “rule” against Performance Enhancing Drugs, if there was such a rule before 2002, by-passed all of these gates.   It was never agreed to by the players, who clearly and absolutely have a right to participate in the process of changing any and all rules to which they are subject.  It was not included in any of the various rule books that define the conduct of the game from various perspectives.   There was no process for enforcing such a rule.  The punishments were draconian in theory and non-existent in fact.


In other words, it will prove impossible to describe as cheaters those who violated a rule to which they never consented, which was never included in the rule books, and for which there was no enforcement procedure.  Logical - but again, I think there's a problem in assuming that logic is going to have a significant role in this type of discussion.

James, it seems to me, has always taken very much to heart Mark Twain's dictum that when one is on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. It's one of his most attractive qualities (to me anyway), even if it has on occasion led him down a blind alley - see, for example, his long and ultimately irrelevant crusade against the Dowd Report.

This time? Have at it.

Bill James Pokes a Bee Hive | 28 comments | Create New Account
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Mike Green - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#203458) #
Remind me again why "recreational" drugs are illegal and steroids are not. 

Predicting the future is a mug's game.  We used to believe that the true bounces and weather-adaptibility of artificial turf would lead to its widespread adoption.  It hasn't worked out that way.  For my own part, I doubt that the future is going to be filled with more anti-aging pills with nasty side effects.  But then, I've always been an optimist.

Chuck - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#203460) #

My instinct is the opposite, Mike. I may be way off, but I am imagining that this is the best of all times to be a plastic surgeon. Yes, there's the steady stream of young women who want this bigger and that smaller, but there's also this big demographic bubble of monied baby boomers who are probably none too happy suffering the ravages of time. I'd love to see the stats but I imagine that there's a great deal of nipping and tucking going on. Anti-aging pills are just the next step, side effects be damned. Vanity knows no bounds.

As for the Bill James piece, I am reminded again -- for the Nth time -- why I enjoyed him so much in the early to mid 1980s and why, almost 30 years later, he's still worth listening to. Agree with him or not, the man is a thinker. I never tire of pondering his ruminations. The man could write a non-baseball book and I'd buy it.

Mike Green - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#203462) #
Why does my somewhat convoluted mind see the link between steroids in baseball and Michael Phelps' adventures with bongs and hi-tech swimsuits?
MatO - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#203466) #

As for the Bill James piece, I am reminded again -- for the Nth time -- why I enjoyed him so much in the early to mid 1980s and why, almost 30 years later, he's still worth listening to. Agree with him or not, the man is a thinker. I never tire of pondering his ruminations. The man could write a non-baseball book and I'd buy it.

Couldn't agree more.  My favourite still is an early 80's piece about how having the DH actually increases strategy whcih even today runs opposite to the standard perception that there is more strategy invloved in the National League.

Mike D - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#203467) #

In other words, it will prove impossible to describe as cheaters those who violated a rule to which they never consented, which was never included in the rule books, and for which there was no enforcement procedure.

I understand, I truly do, why well-meaning people make this argument.  I also don't accept it and never will.  First, the boring point -- steroid possession is a crime and people less well-connected than professional athletes can and do get arrested for it routinely.  "Consent" is irrelevant -- the democratic process has made it unlawful, and that's that.

As for "impossible to describe as cheaters"...to me, they are cheaters because they were cheating and specifically intended to cheat.  Some players have described their past use as a mistake, others have offered justifications such as injury rehab...but not one player has ever raised the argument that they, in good faith, analyzed the governing rules of baseball and concluded that steroids were allowed, by rule or in spirit, in baseball.  Zero. 

Indeed, it would be disingenuous to do so.  Clemens and Bonds are both currently denying under oath that they knowingly partook in steroid use despite massive physical evidence to the contrary.  If it's not cheating, then why has not a single player of the hundreds to take steroids made that argument?


 

Mike D - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#203468) #

And as for this --

"History is forgiving.  Statistics endure."

-- all I want to say is that the overwhelming preponderance of "betting hawks, steroid doves" among the stathead community very likely has something to do with Pete Rose being a "scrappy" singles hitter and the drug cheats being OPS+ and K/9 monsters.  With stats like those, how bad can a guy be?

Interesting thought experiment:  Imagine if PED's, rather than enhancing power hitting and power pitching, only enhanced foot speed and Omar Moreno types appeared in the late '90s with 150-steal seasons.  And instead of Pete Rose, imagine if Hank Aaron was accused of betting in favour of the team he managed.  Would Baseball Prospectus condemn Aaron and excuse the speedsters to the same extent?

Magpie - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#203475) #
steroid possession is a crime and people less well-connected than professional athletes can and do get arrested for it routinely.

True, but what if you do have a doctor's prescription? Is it really unlikely that the drugs used by major league players were legally prescribed by medical professionals? It seems very possible to me. Does that change anything?

I'd certainly grant that being linked to illegal drugs has hurt the HoF candidacies of Tim Raines and Keith Hernandez.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#203478) #
It should be noted that James was not arguing "statistics endure" as a reason why steroid users ought to be eligible for the Hall, but as a reason why they will ultimately seen to be eligible. 

Joe Jackson is still out of the Hall notwithstanding pretty damn impressive statistics.  Will Jackson's actions be seen as worse than Bonds' or Clemens' in 30 years?  I have no idea about what the normative perspective of the average Hall voter will be in 2040, and I doubt that James does. 

Matthew E - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#203479) #

True, but there's one big difference between Jackson on one side and Rose and Clemens and Bonds on the other:

Jackson was trying to lose, and the others were trying to win.

An unfair competition is still a competition. But if one side is trying to lose then there's no competition at all.

Magpie - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 02:00 PM EDT (#203480) #
Imagine if PED's, rather than enhancing power hitting and power pitching, only enhanced foot speed

Well, they certainly do enhance foot speed, as far as I can tell. Those of us (of a certain age anyway!) from the Toronto area have vivid memories of Ben Johnson and the Dubin inquiry.

This was a baseball thing - base stealing goes down when home runs are being hit. Always has, always will.

There certainly hasn't been a Curt Flood of steroids, someone who did what he thought was right, stood up, and challenged the system. No one wants to make the argument, except maybe Jose Canseco. You may remember how much flak Mark McGwire received for using androstenedione - which was a completely legal, over-the-counter supplement. Who wanted the hassle? Curt Flood lost his case, his career was destroyed....

I don't know what they think of these guys at Baseball Prospectus or why. I do know I'd rather have had Pete Rose on my ball club than Barry Bonds.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 02:09 PM EDT (#203482) #
MatthewE, I understand the difference.  What I was saying is that a Hall of Fame voter in 2040 might think "Geez those steroids they took 50 years ago were just like the nice anti-aging pills we're taking now" or he/she/it might think "Geez those steroids they took 50 years ago were a lot worse than some of the harmless illegal drugs that players were taking 60 years ago" or who knows what else.  Current Hall of Fame voters have just indicated a preference for Jim Rice over Tim Raines; logic has little to do with it. 
Geoff - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 02:15 PM EDT (#203483) #
Cliff Lee is now a Phillie. Or Philly?

Anyhow, good news for those hoping that the Jays could pry Happ, Drabek and Taylor: those three guys are still in the Philly organization and a deal still could be made for them. Although it seems less likely they will sell prospects off to get Halladay and Lee.

For the price of Lee and Ben Francisco, Philly paid Jason Knapp, Carlos Carrasco, shortstop Jason Donald and catcher Lou Marson. And does anyone know what Philly needs another outfielder for? Matt Stairs no longer good enough for them?

Mike D - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 02:18 PM EDT (#203485) #

True, but what if you do have a doctor's prescription? Is it really unlikely that the drugs used by major league players were legally prescribed by medical professionals? It seems very possible to me. Does that change anything?

To me, not really, since such doctors are being arrested themselves for essentially renting out their medical licence to facilitate PED use.  I would make an exception to anyone who went to an honest doc and received an honest remedy to an honest condition.  Unless Manny has ovaries, he doesn't qualify here.

There certainly hasn't been a Curt Flood of steroids, someone who did what he thought was right, stood up, and challenged the system.

I believe that's because, Canseco possibly excepted, they don't think it's right.  They know it's wrong.

You may remember how much flak Mark McGwire received for using androstenedione - which was a completely legal, over-the-counter supplement.

Right.  He kept it openly in his locker -- it was legal and, at the time, not banned by baseball.  He wasn't and shouldn't have been punished for it.  But note that whatever it was he decided not to talk about to Congress was nowhere to be seen on the top shelf of his locker.  That was for his eyes only.

 

Magpie - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 02:27 PM EDT (#203489) #
doctors are being arrested themselves for essentially renting out their medical licence

By Gosh, sir! You malign an honest profession! Michael Jackson needed those meds! Just like Elvis did...
Magpie - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#203493) #
Here's another perspective - what's the difference between using steroids and using amphetamines? As a legal and moral issue?

I'm pretty sure amphetamines  were just as illegal unless some tame practitioner was helping you out. I know they're not good for you. Were they widespread? Well, ballplayers used to call playing without them "playing naked." No one was willing to fess up to them, either (except, again, an eccentric who wrote a book - in this case, Jim Bouton.)

Alex Obal - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 03:02 PM EDT (#203497) #
I'd be much more interested in hearing what James has to say about steroid use right now.

Mike D, I agree with you on many points, but I don't buy this:

If it's not cheating, then why has not a single player of the hundreds to take steroids made that argument?

I don't think they care enough. I'll be shocked if an active player ever does that. (And Magpie beats me to the Curt Flood namecheck, surprise.) That would be foregoing a lot of money to take an unpopular public stance. How many players do that for any reason? I'll also be surprised if a retired player, or a non-steroid user, does - I think players just don't want to talk about it, and it might even make current players feel more uncomfortable than liberated. It's poking a beehive. I think players can accept steroid use as an unfortunate reality without thinking it's 'cheating.'

(Also, say the top 0.001% of baseball players in any given era should make the Hall on pre-steroid talent and effort and intangibles. If 90% of players in the steroid era are using PEDs, and they improve your performance by some huge factor, then it would be impossible for the best players from that era to get into the Hall without cheating. I don't know how to feel about that.)

I don't like steroids but not because of anything to do with 'morality,' at least principled morality. Steroid use is an example of the multi-party prisoner's dilemma, assuming that steroids have nasty side effects (NSEs). The total relative baseball talent of everyone in the world is unaffected by the use of PEDs. It's zero sum. But the total NSE prevalence increases with PED use. Paternalism sucks, but so do NSEs, and somebody has to protect baseball players' right to compete at the highest level they can reach without incurring NSEs. (And yes I do believe there's a distinction between chemical NSEs and 'social' NSEs that might result from baseball monomania.) Without explicit rules against PED use, and punishments which are draconian in theory and in practice, how else are you going to do this? And if every fan, player and owner publicly acknowledged that PED use is 'cheating,' what would that accomplish? If there are absolutely no adverse side effects associated with steroids, I'll give this position up.

Without thinking too hard about it (steroids? HOF? not my thing), I've always felt like the ideal solution is giving amnesty for past steroid use, judging the 'pioneers' on their achievements, putting non-vindictive mentions of their steroid use on their HOF plaques, and using Jedi mind tricks to get the union to agree to very strong anti-steroid rules. Is that too much to ask? (What? It is?) I'm not sure how that would go over. But to enshrine the McGwires and Sosas of the world while blithely failing to note the context they played in would be irresponsible.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 03:03 PM EDT (#203498) #
The early 90s Bonds vs. the late 60s Rose, Magpie?  Before all the extraneous nonsense?  I myself would take the early 90s Bonds.  If you make Bonds a leadoff hitter for the Reds of the late 60s (Bench, May, Pinson, Perez, Alex Johnson...) when Rose was at his best, he scores 125+ runs every season, not to mention driving in a bunch more than Rose. 
Mick Doherty - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#203504) #

Just like Elvis did...

Don't you malign the Texas kid shortstop! He's having a wonderful rookie year, PED-unaided!

Magpie - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#203505) #
The early 90s Bonds vs. the late 60s Rose

I know, I know. I'd still rather have Rose than Bonds. Or Cobb. Or Hornsby.

Some guys are such colossal jerks that it almost gets hard to win with them, no matter how great they play, and even when you do it's just no damned fun anyway!

Rose, weirdly enough, became one of those guys once he was no longer even good enough to make a roster.
TimberLee - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#203508) #
Both Jackson and Rose have been given "lifetime" bans from baseball, as I have always understood it.  Since Shoeless Joe has been dead for some time, why is he still banned and considered ineligible for the Hall of Fame?  I assume I am missing something here.  A " lifetime ban " means that it ends when the life ends, doesn't it?  I certainly believe that Rose's threat to the integrity of the Game was enough to keep him away from any connection with it as long as he is alive, but once he's dead, I'd accept him in the Hall for his on-field accomplishments.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#203509) #
I don't remember the Rose of the late 60s much, but the one of the 70s was a 6-7 on the unlikeability scale and Bonds was perhaps an 8-8.5.  Neither was truly disruptive to team morale. 
Paul D - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#203512) #

 

Rose and Jackson don't have lifetime bans, they have permanent bans - they're banned whether they're alive or dead.

Dewey - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#203517) #
There seems to be widepread ignorance about “steroids” and their uses and negative side-effects.  Legitimate doctors prescribe, for example, testosterone to men and women (yes, women have testosterone, too) for a number of conditions.  There can be side effects, not necessarily very “nasty” ones  (shrinking testicles is the one most men might know about;  though not that the shrinkage is reversible).  I can see that PEDs are an advantage to an athlete in possibly accelerating the healing process, and in creating muscle mass, thereby adding a few feet to formerly warning-track fly-balls or helping an arm to heal.   But the entire matter of the actual medical effects of all the various PEDs is shrouded in misinformation and, more generally, ignorance.  Like most human matters of dispute.

Does any bauxite actually know what the specific use and effects of any specific "steroid" might be?

dan gordon - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 07:07 PM EDT (#203522) #
There are a vast number of different types of steroids.  There are plant steroids, fungal steroids, and various animal steroids.  Cholesterol is a steroid.  There are many different sex steroids like estrogen, progesterone and testosterone.  There are corticosteroids like cortisone, which have many different medical uses.  The term steroid has come be used by many people to refer to anabolic steroids, which are the type of steroids used by atheletes to build muscle mass, but that is only one small subgroup of steroids.  Anabolic steroids do have legitimate medical uses as well.
Magpie - Wednesday, July 29 2009 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#203537) #
There are corticosteroids like cortisone

I actually didn't know cortisone was a steroid (which shows you just how little I know.)

I simply thought cortisone was... that MIRACLE drug, that heaven-sent substance that restored to me the full and normal use of my left wrist. Very, very big deal for a guitar player.
TimberLee - Thursday, July 30 2009 @ 10:37 AM EDT (#203556) #
    And we should probably remember that Bill James has generally proven to be, in the long run, seldom very wrong.
Mike Green - Thursday, July 30 2009 @ 08:22 PM EDT (#203618) #
The publishing of this article is well-timed with the Ortiz/Ramirez revelations.  I wondered about the estimate of the number of users.  2003 seems to have been a banner year for "named" users.  The HR leaders in the AL that year were A-Rod, Delgado, Thomas, Giambi, Palmeiro, Soriano, Ramirez, Boone, Huff, Wells.   The HR leaders in the NL that year were Thome, Sexson, Bonds, Pujols, Lopez, Sosa, Sheffield, Edmonds, Bagwell, Preston Wilson and Chipper Jones.

I still think that the overall number of users in MLB, even at the height of the era was under 50%.  It matters to the Hall of Fame argument. 

John Northey - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 01:35 AM EDT (#203651) #
The raw number can never truly be known but I'd bet it jumped drastically after 98 when the home run race was so clearly steroid (or something) induced and the media pretty much ignored it. Bonds juicing after seeing that makes perfect sense, as does any other player going deep into it. I'm surprised the number caught in the sample that got Ortiz/A-Rod/etc. wasn't far, far higher than 104.
Bill James Pokes a Bee Hive | 28 comments | Create New Account
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