Batter's Box Interactive Magazine

It's Over

The 2011 Toronto Blue Jays concluded their season with a 3-2 defeat of the Chicago White Sox this afternoon and finished the year at .500 on the nose. The White Sox held a 2-1 lead entering the ninth, but Chris Sale was unable to find the strike zone, allowing Mark Teahen and Adam Loewen to both draw walks with the bases loaded. Shawn Camp earned the win, as Brandon Morrow struggled with his control. Frank Francisco notched his 17th save, while Jose Bautista was held hitless, but drew his 132nd walk of the year.

However, fans of baseball still have a lot to look forward ago in 2011. It was unthinkable a month ago that there would be any playoff races this September, but there are two teams tied for each wild card spot entering this evening’s action and MLB could see a pair of play-in games for the first time in history. St. Louis faces Houston and Atlanta hosts Philadelphia with both clubs tied for the NL Wild Card. If one wins and the other loses, the winning team will join Roy Halladay’s Phillies, Shaun Marcum’s Brewers and Aaron Hill and John McDonald’s Diamondbacks in the NL playoffs. Meanwhile, the Red Sox may complete perhaps the most epic September collapse in history if they lose to Baltimore tonight and Tampa beats the Yankees. Jon Lester and David Price have each been handed the ball and oppose Alfredo Simon and Dellin Betances, respectively. If necessary, the play-in games will be held tomorrow with the AL game at 4:10 and the NL game beginning in the evening.

Posted by Thomas on Wednesday, September 28 2011 @ 05:38 PM EDT.

It's Over | 91 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

greenfrog - Wednesday, September 28 2011 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#244940) #

Tonight should be a great night for baseball fans. I'm definitely rooting for TB (I don't really have a favourite in the NL race - besides, both St. Louis and Atlanta have ex-Jays on the roster).

finch - Wednesday, September 28 2011 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#244943) #

Could someone please shed some light...is the Blue Jays' First Rounder protected next draft? I'm not sure where we needed to finish to have it protected against Signing a type-A free agent.

Looks like Francisco, Molina, Johnson, and Rauch will all net us Sandwich Picks, given they don't accept abr if offered.

James W - Wednesday, September 28 2011 @ 08:11 PM EDT (#244944) #

Toronto will finish 14th overall in MLB - Cleveland can tie them if they win tonight, but since Toronto was better last year, Cleveland will get the better pick next year anyway. So Toronto will pick 17th, and their first round pick is not protected. By giving up those 2 runs in the 9th, the White Sox win in the end.

finch - Wednesday, September 28 2011 @ 08:17 PM EDT (#244945) #

Thanks for the clarity. Damn, that sucks.

ayjackson - Wednesday, September 28 2011 @ 10:03 PM EDT (#244946) #

Oh but hey...we finished .500. That's gotta be worth something!

No? Oh well, it won't affect our offseason, just our draft.

ayjackson - Wednesday, September 28 2011 @ 10:07 PM EDT (#244947) #

I'd sure like to have Scutaro back here next year. At 2B if KJ doesn't return, in place of McCoy/JMac if he does.

scottt - Wednesday, September 28 2011 @ 10:15 PM EDT (#244948) #

Kinda ironic that the team that was accusing the Jays of cheating ends up throwing the game in the ninth.

Alex Obal - Wednesday, September 28 2011 @ 10:51 PM EDT (#244949) #

... this is actually happening, right?

dan gordon - Wednesday, September 28 2011 @ 11:25 PM EDT (#244950) #

The Yankees may regret not taking this game more seriously. If I were them, I'd much rather have Boston as one of the teams they might face in the league championship than TBay, who are playing great over the last month. Boston's been struggling, their pitching is in rough shape and Youkilis is out for the year. In fact, if TBay gets in, Zaunie just said he thinks they're the favourite to get to the Series. Can't say I disagree with that.

dan gordon - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#244952) #

Wow. Papelbon blows the save, then allows the winning run as high priced free agent Carl Crawford sort of helps out his former team as he can't make a tough catch then makes a poor throw home as the winning run scores. Longoria hits one out against the Yankees to finalize the comeback from a 7-0 deficit, and the Sox are out. The Rays are going to be tough to beat in the playoffs.

AWeb - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 12:16 AM EDT (#244953) #

Well, Tampa is in now. Congrats on the greatest September collapses ever, to Boston and Atlanta. You made it fun, now please go away.

Anders - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 12:17 AM EDT (#244954) #

I'm too young to remember touch em all Joe, but this was by far the greatest baseball watching experience of my life.

92-93 - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 12:23 AM EDT (#244955) #

Unbelievable night of baseball. You couldn't have scripted the Red Sox collapse any better - ex-Ray Carl Crawford misses a catchable ball as FA Papelbon blows the save, all while their hated rival Yankees cough up a 7-0 lead. Incredible. Shame too, cuz a BOS-TB play-in would've been a helluva game to watch.

Alex Obal - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 12:25 AM EDT (#244956) #

... as Longoria's homer sails over the Crawford fence in left. Yup.

melondough - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 12:33 AM EDT (#244958) #

Most fun I have had watching baseball since 1992. I am so happy for TB (and to a lesser degree St.Louis). "@Buster_ESPN: In the span of about 20 minutes, we saw the two worst September collapses in baseball history."

Just a side note....anyone notice how well Napoli did this year? .320 with 30 homers and 75 RBI in just 367 AB! I think AA lost this one but I guess you can't win them all.

Ron - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 12:38 AM EDT (#244959) #

I thought you couldn't win in the AL East with a low payroll? Making the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years kills that debate.

This was the most exciting regular season day in MLB history.

85bluejay - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 12:53 AM EDT (#244960) #

What a fantastic night of baseball, although I was hoping for a 1 game play-in in both leagues as a preview if they add a 2nd wild card team

I hope the Cardinals making the playoffs has a positive impact in the PTBNL that the Jays owe the Cardinals - maybe only cash will be required.

The Red Sox collapse brought me great joy - I remember the pain of the 1987 Jays collapse - I died a little every day with each one of those 7 losses starting with the kirk Gibson homer against Tom Henke - so this Red Sox collapse brought me joy thinking about the pain of Sox nation & besides I love what Tampa has done & the knowledge that AA is following that path.

DaveB - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 01:09 AM EDT (#244961) #

A 2-out, 2-strike game-tying PH HR by Dan Johnson (!!) and a 2-out, nobody-on blown save-loss by Papelbon. Both teams one strike away from opposite results. An unbelievable and enjoyable night of baseball.

hypobole - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 02:00 AM EDT (#244963) #

A 2-out, 2-strike game-tying PH HR by Dan Johnson (!!)

Thanks to Dave Cameron at FG for this one:

Dan Johmson had the 2nd worst wOBA and the 2nd worst wRC+ among all MLB batters with 90 or more plate appearances this year. The only player to hit worse than Johnson? Roy Halladay.

Chuck - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 07:14 AM EDT (#244964) #

The playoffs are going to be hard pressed to provide the drama and entertainment of last night's games. I was simultaneously trying to watch 3 games once it was clear St. Louis would win handily. I eventually had to abandon the Atlanta game so that I could simply toggle between the two AL games.

The erstwhile invincible rookie Kimbrel blows a save facing 7-8-9. The Braves ultimately lose.

Papelbon blows a save with none on and two out. The Red Sox ultimately lose.

Wade blows a save with none on, two outs and two strikes. The Yankees ultimately lose.

Amazing.

Quick quiz... How many of us are going to schadenfreude hell for too fervently relishing Papelbon's demise?

rpriske - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 08:41 AM EDT (#244965) #

Now that THAT'S over with, I can move on to chearing for both the Yankees and the Rays to be eliminated in the first round.

Go Tigers and Rangers!

Mike Green - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 08:56 AM EDT (#244966) #

What is schaudenfreude hell like anyway?

Does Lucifer approach you on Sunday and say "aww heck, it's the day of rest, the heat is turned down and you don't have to work...your hemorrhoids aren't going away and that is enough for me"?

I wonder if TB Ray owner Stuart Sternberg, president Matthew Silverman and GM Andrew Friedman sat down somewhere together yesterday at about 5:30 p.m, dipped some bread in honey, wished each other a good and sweet year, skipped the synagogue for a ballgame and did not suffer any immediate noticeable consequences.

Gerry - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 08:59 AM EDT (#244967) #

I am on that hell bus too.

So:

Milwaukee decided they needed to make the playoffs, traded with the Jays, and they are in.

St. Louis decided they needed to make the playoffs, traded with the Jays, and they are in.

The Diamondbacks were struggling along, decided they needed to make the playoffs, traded with the Jays, and they are in.

Texas were looking for an extra piece to make the playoffs, they traded with the Jays, and they are in.

A couple of years ago the Phillies needed to upgrade for the playoffs, traded with the Jays, and they are in, again.

What does this mean?

AA should have a lot of GM's willing to deal with him, they were mostly win-win deals.

There will be a lot of former Jays to watch in the playoffs.

greenfrog - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 09:43 AM EDT (#244968) #

What an unbelievable night of baseball. I went to bed with the score 3-2 O's (rain delay) and 7-0 Rays. This morning I checked out the Boston score first, and thought: wow - we're going to have a one-game playoff after all. I started reading the game recap, and saw a quote from Lester: "It's just shocking. We should be playing a one-game playoff right now." Then I thought, wait a minute, what's going on - is that even possible? At which point I checked out the TB-NY score...

Chuck - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 10:15 AM EDT (#244970) #

A brief post-mortem on two players looking to rebound after a disappointing 2010 and hoping to return to their 2009 levels. Neither showed any real improvement at all.

1. Aaron Hill

2009: 734 PA, 286/330/499, OPS+ 114
2010: 580 PA, 205/271/394, OPS+ 78
2011: 571 PA, 246/299/356, OPS+ 77

He swapped out a bunch of homeruns for some batting average. And he ran (21 steals to best his previous career best of 6). Will Arizona bring him back? They might, but not via the expensive options I wouldn't think.

2. Adam Lind

2009: 654 PA, 305/370/562, OPS+ 141
2010: 613 PA, 237/287/425, OPS+ 90
2011: 542 PA, 251/295/439, OPS+ 95

While his HR rate climbed, his doubles rate dropped netting an almost identical ISO (neither he nor Hill are doubles machines any more). For two years he hasn't even been a league average hitter let alone average for his position (where the bar is higher). The hot stove league will see him replaced by one of Votto, Fielder or Pujols, but my gut is that he is next year's starting first baseman, producing at the same uninspiring level.

hypobole - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#244971) #

Theo Epstein is going to be feeling some major heat in Boston. Maybe from ownership, but definitely from the fanbase.

His big signings the past few years in Dice K, Lackey, Drew and Crawford contributed almost nothing this year.

Then at the trade deadline he didn't want to give up decent young prospects and settled for Eric Bedard and Connor Jackson, who helped about as much as his Free Agent busts.

Not going to be very pleasnt offseason for the Sox front office.

John Northey - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 10:42 AM EDT (#244972) #

That Tampa game was amazing to watch. I turned it on in the 8th (3 kids-had to get them to bed before I could tune in, heard the 7-0 and was watching Atlanta first). Had a feeling for some reason that they were either going to do it or the Sox were going to lose - the collapse story just had to have a good ending.

Just amazing to watch. Also interesting to see so many empty seats. And the Rays did something else amazing - they had as many 30k games this year (2) as the Expos did in their final season. Just 29,518 bothered to go to what was the most amazing game the Rays have ever played. Put that same game in pretty much any city, in the worst possible park for that city, and you'd get far more.

I want to cheer on the Rays - the players are fantastic, the front office is fantastic, but the complete lack of support that team sees from the locals is pathetic. In 1982, the last of 6 straight years in the AL East basement for the Jays and after a strike year, we saw more 30k+ games than the Rays did this year. Last year, with 3 games lost to Philly (thanks Harper) and yet another 4th place finish the Jays still had 9 games with 30k+.

This is a drum I keep beating - Tampa has to lose its team and it should move anywhere, ideally Montreal where winners get crowds at least - in 1996, the last year they seriously were good, they had 3 games with 40K+, and 11 more with 30k+ even though they were just 2 years past the strike that hurt the team to a massive degree.

bpoz - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 10:48 AM EDT (#244973) #

Shocking results last night.

NYY used a lot of pitchers as did the Phillies, but the IP for each starter was 2IP. It looked like a warm up for the playoffs or even just giving everyone a chance to play.

I have a simple question. Was this fair to Boston & St Louis? I know this is not cheating but where is the HONOR?

More questions/comments.

This can happen to anyone, so it could happen to us...For and Against. We played our best line up in meaningful games. I don't know if the majority of teams do this.

Last point. What does integrity of the game mean?

I would be interested in a Poll on this issue. Da Box has 20 year olds & 60 year olds and IMO we share something special. I know the world has changed but...Oh My Gosh how much.

hypobole - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#244974) #

my gut is that he is next year's starting first baseman, producing at the same uninspiring level.

My gut tells me if Adam Lind is hitting behind Jose again next year, any chances we have of contending are massively diminished. Maybe we won't get one of the big 3, but for the love of god, there must be someone, anyone, better than Lind available. Carlos freakin' Lee would be an upgreade.

hypobole - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#244975) #

bpoz, the Boston Red Sox put themselves into the position they were in and have no one to blame for their failure other than the Boston Red Sox.

greenfrog - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 11:03 AM EDT (#244976) #

Interested to see who among the Jays' pending FAs qualifies as a Type A, B. I assume that:

- Francisco, Rauch and Molina will be Type Bs

- Johnson could be a Type A or B

- Camp might be a Type B

- EE probably won't be a Type B

Am I missing anyone?

BalzacChieftain - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 11:14 AM EDT (#244977) #

bpoz - I don't buy the " upholding the integrity of the game" argument that is made about the Yanks not running out their top lineup for the whole game. The Yankees obligations, as an organization, are essentially to their fan base in hopes of winning the World Series. While I don't necessarily agree with the in-game management Girardi practiced last night, he is resting his big guns for Friday, which is all that matters. With all that said, there's 162 games in a regular season. They ran out their best lineup as often as possible throughout the full season and won the right to be in a situation that didn't require them to win the last game of the season.

John Northey - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 11:18 AM EDT (#244978) #

I hear Carl Crawford is available, maybe he could play first :)

Now that the regular season is over we can see where the 500 Jays ended up...

OPS+: 96
Lineup: 2 superstats (Bautista, Lawrie over 150), 3 solid above average bats (Escobar, Encarnacion, Thames), 2 mediocre bats (Lind, JPA), and 2 black holes (Hill & Davis - replaced at the end by Johnson's 111 and Rasmus' 37 but lifetime 103). If Johnson is resigned and Rasmus just reaches his career norm the closest to a black hole is Lind. The good news is Lind says he wore down due to using a too heavy workload (massive time working on defense) and he had a killer 1rst half (141 OPS+) vs the 2nd horrid half (59 OPS+). His September OPS+ was 72, which normally is horrid but was an improvement over July/August (62 + 45 respectively) once the manager sat him regularly.

No question, offensively, there are 4 big questions...
1) Will Lawrie continue to hit well above average
2) Will Johnson come back
3) Will Rasmus hit like he did before this year
4) Did Lind learn enough this year to have a solid 2012

Lind will be a major test for AA's scouts and talent evaluators. Is Lind a 120-140 OPS+ 1B/DH or is he a guy you gotta replace ASAP? His superficial numbers are good enough (26 HR, 87 RBI) that some GM would take him, especially if their scouts think 1st half Lind is the real one. The question is what do the Jays thinkers think.

The staff is a bigger question mark. Romero was great, Morrow seemed to have a strong finish but still had a 90 ERA+ and a 4.42 ERA in September to go with his usual strong FIP numbers, Cecil likewise was at 90 for ERA+ but his only good month was July. Alvarez is the control king, but a 4.33 ERA over his last 4 starts makes me a little nervous. Then there is the massive kiddie core coming up through the minors.

The more I look at it, the more I think one more year is needed to know what the Jays really have/need. However, there is a window of opportunity with two guys in the 20's in Darvish and Fielder available for nothing more than cash and one draft pick (for Fielder) or to send a few prospects to Cincinnati to get Votto. This will be AA's most important off-season (so far) - poor choices could cripple the team going forward (getting stars but using up the payroll space and trading away prospects), but delaying too long could cost the fan base and test Rogers patience while using up the cheap productive years of Bautista..

As to the pen - I figure that'll take care of itself. We have tons of starters pushing for a role, so some kids will move to the pen and a couple are bound to succeed. Closers are made, not born - no matter how frustrating it can be. Even $10+ million guys can blow the big one (see last night).

BlueJayWay - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#244979) #

Just an incredible finish. I can't imagine a last day of the regular season finishing in a more spectacular, exciting way.

And maybe it's good the sched ended on a Wednesday this year, instead of football Sunday.

Thomas - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#244981) #

Was this fair to Boston & St Louis?

I think both Charlie Manuel and Joe Girardi handled the games, and the entire series, quite well. I don't think any Red Sox or Cards fans could have objected to the way the games were handled.

The only person with cause for complaint may have been Scott Proctor's agent.

Anders - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#244982) #

As to the integrity of the game, I don't think there is any legitimate reason to complain about what the Yankees did. They started their regulars and kept them in the game until it was out of hand (theoretically any way.) Their first playoff game is on Friday, I don't think it's poor sportsmanship or whatever for them not to use pitchers they may have to use on Friday.

Fun fact: as the rain delay in Baltimore started, the combined odds of the Rays winning and Red Sox losing was about 0.1%, per Fangraphs live WP scoreboard. Maybe it's a bit higher if you take away a couple of points from the Yankees B-team, but still.

Chuck - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#244983) #

The only person with cause for complaint may have been Scott Proctor's agent.

Actually, his agent should be quite pleased that his client was afforded the opportunity to "showcase" his talents on a major league stage. Last night's outing dropped Proctor's WHIP below 3.

More random end-of-the-season observations... If there is evidence that this man is in decline, it it hard to see. His workload has been steadily decreasing, and one imagines that is by design. So perhaps that is the form his decline will take. Same quality, just less of it.

D. King - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 12:00 PM EDT (#244984) #

What an absurd night - it literally took me two minutes when I woke up to determine whether or not that had been a dream.

The stunning finish has already claimed one victim in Boston (Sons of Sam Horn is down). It's too bad, as I was looking forward to reading their comments at lunch today.

As Law tweeted last night: #fyeahbaseball.

stevieboy22 - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 12:25 PM EDT (#244985) #

Just amazing to watch. Also interesting to see so many empty seats. And the Rays did something else amazing - they had as many 30k games this year (2) as the Expos did in their final season. Just 29,518 bothered to go to what was the most amazing game the Rays have ever played. Put that same game in pretty much any city, in the worst possible park for that city, and you'd get far more.

Well said. I spend a lot of time in that area, and I just don't think its good for pro sports other than football. There is no central hub, it would be one thing to call it an urban sprawl, but that would be claiming that you can identify an urban centre. I don't know where you could put a stadium that 50 percent of the city could get to in under 30 minutes. Not to mention that the population is often young and poor or old and cheap.

This is a drum I keep beating - Tampa has to lose its team and it should move anywhere, ideally Montreal where winners get crowds at least - in 1996, the last year they seriously were good, they had 3 games with 40K+, and 11 more with 30k+ even though they were just 2 years past the strike that hurt the team to a massive degree.

If Montreal played in the AL East they would likely have a guarenteed 10 40k crowds with all those home games against New York and Boston. Whenever I go to party in Montreal, it feels like half the people there are 19 year olds from the States. I'm assuming all weekend series against Boston and New York would be massive successes.

Spookie Wookie - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#244986) #

Lind now has 2534 career plate appearances, is 28 years old, and has a 104 career wRC+. I can't think of a reason to have him on the team... the chances of him repeating the one good season he had seem small. Surely at this point the Jays are better off at the very least giving a cheap, relatively unknown quantity the job (whether that's Cooper or someone else).

D. King - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 01:17 PM EDT (#244987) #

Nuts to chasing Fielder or Pujols. I say we throw the bucks at Dan Johnson.

melondough - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 01:18 PM EDT (#244988) #

Lind now has 2534 career plate appearances, is 28 years old, and has a 104 career wRC+. I can't think of a reason to have him on the team...

I guess it would be nice if AA had held onto Napoli. All he did this year was hit .320 with 30 homers and 75 RBI in just 369 AB's

Glevin - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#244989) #

Maybe the best night of baseball ever. Simply amazing for anyone who loves the game.

Chuck - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 02:24 PM EDT (#244990) #

Mike Green - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#244992) #

The best of Sam Horn post-mortem:

"So Lackey is getting divorced. Leaving his wife while going through cancer. Nice stand up guy. Hopefully she kicked his ass to the curb. On the bright side at least half the money we are paying him will go to her. "

"Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Horseface had a prenup"

They should call it the "Intolerable Cruelty" thread and kill two birds with one stone.

Ron - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#244993) #

AA Season Ending Press Conference:

-inconsistent season

- won’t comment on own contract status, wants to stay as long as Beeston and ownership want him

- on going after big name fa’s, will be objective, value has to line-up

- regarding Encarnacion’s club option, haven’t made a determination on him

- shifting bautista to 3B and Lawrie to 2B is not in the plans

- Johnson is in the mix for 2B job

- Rasmus will be better next year, needs to clear his head in the off-season, lots of upside

- Regarding the MLB All-Stars tour in Taiwan, Romero was asked but declined. Jays didn’t want him to go because of all the innings pitched

- need middle to front of the rotation starter, doesn’t have to be a veteran, doesn’t guarantee they will get one

- arguably the best run organization in sports is the Rays

- bullpen needs to be improved, will be looking at free agents, not enough depth in the system for bullpen help

- sounds like another wildcard will be added, don’t know when

- AFL will have nobody from the Jays major league roster

- better core in place compared to last year

On Lang and Brady:

- Farrell gave himself a C but AA thinks he did a great job

- is more candid in conversations with fans in public, more guarded with the media

- will spend more than 62 million next season

- was after Lawrie for 2 years, Perry Minasian really wanted the Jays to get him, initially didn’t want to do Marcum trade

TamRa - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#244994) #

Mike Cormack, who had lots of details on the AA presser, tweets that it was said that Gose is going to the AFL

hypobole - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#244998) #

AA's press conference is here. Upper right. i had to turn the volume up to hear it.

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/index.jsp?c_id=tor&tcid=mm_mlb_sitelist

uglyone - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 07:17 PM EDT (#244999) #

As we head into the offseason, and end up debating what AA will do and whether he will spend, I will just flat out state that this roster here IMO would have a very good chance to contend for most of the next 5 years (with 2yr average numbers):

1) SS Y.Escobar (29): 1157pa, 10.1bb%, 11.0k%, .093iso, .299babip, .273avg, .353obp, .366slg, .719ops, .324woba, 100wRC+
2) 2B K.Johnson (30): 1284pa, 10.8bb%, 24.2k%, .202iso, .310babip, .254avg, .338obp, .456slg, .794ops, .348woba, 112wRC+
3) RF J.Bautista (31): 1338pa, 17.3bb%, 17.0k%, .333iso, .269babip, .280avg, .412obp, .613slg, 1.025ops, .431woba, 174wRC+
4) 1B P.Fielder (28): 1406pa, 15.7bb%, 17.4k%, .238iso, .299babip, .280avg, .408obp, .518slg, .926ops, .394woba, 149wRC+
5) 3B B.Lawrie (22): 171pa, 9.4bb%, 18.1k%, .287iso, .318babip, .293avg, .373obp, .580slg, .953ops, .413woba, 163wRC+
6) CF C.Rasmus (25): 1060pa, 10.7bb%, 24.9k%, .194iso, .307babip, .250avg, .330obp, .444slg, .774ops, .334woba, 109wRC+
7) DH E.Encarnacion (29): 897pa, 8.0bb%, 15.3k%, .204iso, .270babip, .261avg, .322obp, .465slg, .787ops, .342woba, 113wRC+
8) LF E.Thames (25): 394pa, 5.8bb%, 22.3k%, .193iso, .313babip, .262avg, .313obp, .456slg, .769ops, .333woba, 108wRC+
9) C J.Arencibia (26): 523pa, 7.3bb%, 27.5k%, .218iso, .247babip, .213avg, .275obp, .431slg, .706ops, .304woba, 88wRC+

UT) T.Snider (24): 521pa, 6.1bb%, 25.9k%, .175iso, .301babip, .243avg, .290obp, .419slg, .709ops, .309woba, 89wRC+
UT) D.Cooper (25): 81pa, 8.6bb%, 17.3k%, .183iso .228babip, .211avg, .284obp, .394wslg, .678ops, .295woba, 81wRC+
OF) R.Davis (31): 899pa, 4.6bb%, 15.7k%, .101iso, .311babip, .266avg, .302obp, .367slg, .669ops, .306woba, 90wRC+
OF) A.Loewen (28): 37pa, 8.1bb%, 35.1k%, .125iso, .2798abip, .188avg, .297obp, .313slg, .610ops, .282woba, 73wRC+
IF) M.McCoy (31): 318pa, 10.4bb%, 19.2k%, .065iso, .245babip, .197avg, .284obp, .262slg, .546ops, .261woba, 58wRC+
IF) A.Hechevarria (23): ---
C) J.Molina (38): 374pa, 6.4bb%, 21.4k%, .133iso, .321babip, .263avg, .323obp, .396slg, .719ops, .319woba, 97wRC+
C) T.D'Arnaud (23): ---

SP1) LH R.Romero (27): 64gs, 6.8ip/gs, 7.3k/9, 3.4bb/9, 0.9hr/9, .265babip, 54.9gb%, 3.31era, 3.93fip, 3.72xfip
SP2) RH Y.Darvish (25): ---
SP3) RH B.Morrow (27): 56gs, 5.8ip/gs, 10.5k/9, 3.7bb/9, 0.9hr/9, .318babip, 37.9gb%, 4.62era, 3.42fip, 3.51xfip
SP4) LH B.Cecil (25): 48gs, 6.2ip/gs, 6.2k/9, 2.9bb/9, 1.2hr/9, .282babip, 41.7gb%, 4.43era, 4.48fip, 4.28xfip
SP5) RH D.McGowan (30): 4gs, 4.3ip/gs, 7.9k/9, 5.3bb/9, 1.6hr/9, .255babip, 50.0gb%, 6.35era, 5.50fip, 4.46xfip
SP6) RH H.Alvarez (22): 10gs, 6.3ip/gs, 5.7k/9, 1.1bb/9, 1.1hr/9, .281babip, 53.5gb%, 3.53era, 3.97fip, 3.38xfip
SP7) RH K.Drabek (24): 17gs, 5.3ip/gs, 6.0k/9, 5.7bb/9, 1.1hr/9, .309babip, 47.9gb%, 5.52era, 5.23fip, 4.84xfip
SP8) RH N.Molina (23): ---
SP9) RH D.Hutchison (21): ---
SP10) RH D.McGuire (23): ---

CL) RH H.Street (29): 105.2ip, 8.5k/9, 1.7bb/9, 1.3hr/9, .299babip, 35.7gb%, 3.75era, 3.65fip, 3.33xfip
SU) RH C.Janssen (30): 124.1ip, 8.4k/9, 2.5bb/9, 0.7hr/9, .314babip, 46.9gb%, 3.04era, 3.22fip, 3.29xfip
SU) RH F.Francisco (32): 103.1ip, 9.8k/9, 3.1bb/9, 1.1hr/9, .310babip, 39.0gb%, 3.66era, 3.45fip, 3.26xfip
MR) RH C.Villanueva (28): 86.1ip, 9.7k/9, 4.0bb/9, 1.0hr/9, .260babip, 36.8gb%, 3.44era, 3.87fip, 3.72xfip
MR) RH J.Litsch (27): 28.2ip, 9.4k/9, 3.1bb/9, 1.3hr/9, .243babip, 41.9gb%, 4.08era, 3.79fip, 2.99xfip
MR) RH J.Carreno (25): 15.2ip, 8.0k/9, 2.3bb/9, 0.6hr/9, .250babip, 53.7gb%, 1.15era, 2.83fip, 3.13xfip
MR) LH L.Perez (27): 46.1ip, 7.6k/9, 3.1bb/9, 1.2hr/9, .324babip, 65.8gb%, 4.27era, 4.39fip, 3.54xfip

If they choose to open the vaults, they can compete now, and with a roster built to compete longterm to boot.

electric carrot - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#245000) #

uglyone for GM!

Richard S.S. - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 08:29 PM EDT (#245001) #

In an article I read today: http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=377053 "It's definitely an area that we need to improve and you like to have someone who start to finish is a bona fide closer." Anthopoulos said. "That's something we're going to look to add if we can."

People wave the 'B.J. Ryan Contract' flag as a warning about just this statement. When B. J. Ryan http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ryanb.01.shtml signed his big contract he was a one-year wonder and Ricciardi was slightly desparate. Why don't they try to think about who A.A. might sign. Or is the act of thinking actually possible for some.

John Northey - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 08:39 PM EDT (#245002) #

Now that the season is over I thought I'd check what Jay records have been set/made top 10.

WAR: Jose Bautista's 8.6 beats John Olerud '93's 8.2
Other Bautista 2011 stuff...
OBP: 3rd best season for a Jay (Olerud 93 and Delgado 00)
Slg: 3rd best season for a Jay (Delgado 00 and Bautista 10)
OPS: 3rd best season for a Jay (Delgado 00 and Olerud 93)
Home Runs: 5th best ever
Walks: Best ever for a Jay (Delgado 00 had 9 fewer)
OPS+: 2nd best ever (Olerud '93 was 4 points higher)
Runs Created: 4th all time
Intentional walks: 2nd ever (Olerud '93 had 9 more)
AB/HR: 2nd to his 2010 season
WPA: #1 by far at 8.0 vs Delgado 00's 6.6

Non-Bautista: all pitching
Morrow: 4th highest K/IP ratio (he has the best for a starter last year), strikouts is #7 all time, hit by pitch 8th
Romero: hit by pitch is #3 behind Carpenter 01 and Stieb 86. Up to #7 for ERA lifetime

Yeah, Bautista had a heck of a year I'd say.

greenfrog - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 09:22 PM EDT (#245004) #

Thanks John. Also a nice reminder of just how good those Delgado and Olerud seasons were.

Ron - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 09:44 PM EDT (#245005) #

According to Buster Olney, there's some people within the Braves organization that think the Braves might be better off trading Jason Heyward. If this is true, I hope AA gives Wren a call to see if he's available

The Braves currently have 9 starting pitchers (Hudson, Hanson, Jurrjens, Beachy, Lowe, Minor, Teheran, Delgado, Vizcaino ) for 5 rotation spots next season. Frankly, the Braves have too much pitching. I would love to see Mike Minor in a Jays uni next season. I wouldn't even be opposed to getting Lowe under the right deal.

Anthony Gose for Mike Minor looks like a trade that would help both teams.

Gerry - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 10:05 PM EDT (#245006) #

MLB trade rumors reverse engineered Elias rankings have Camp as a type B.

Doom Service - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 10:58 PM EDT (#245007) #

Brian Jeroloman: Recalled August 23. 0 games played. I feel this needs to be noted in any recap of the year, though I'm not clear why.

Jonny German - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 11:27 PM EDT (#245008) #

Some catchers of interest:

Rod Barajas: 336 PA, 230/287/430, OPS+ 97
John Buck: 530 PA, 227/316/367, OPS+ 87 (first year of 3/18MM)
JP Arencibia: 486 PA, 219/282/438, OPS+ 91

Definitely animals of the same ilk.

Chuck, you're better than that. Your 3 catchers at age 25:

Rod Barajas: 110 PA, 160/191/274, OPS+ 15
John Buck: 409 PA, 245/306/396, OPS+ 80
JP Arencibia: 486 PA, 219/282/438, OPS+ 91

John Northey - Thursday, September 29 2011 @ 11:42 PM EDT (#245009) #

Ron - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 12:30 AM EDT (#245011) #

Atlanta is interesting. Every last guy listed as an outfielder on their B-R page had an OPS+ of 100 or less (one at 100, rest below). If they trade Heyward though they are insane - at age 20 he had an OPS+ of 131 (full season). At 21 he slumped to a 95. I'd take him over any hitter in the system not named 'Bautista' or 'Lawrie' - and I'd consider it for either of them as well.

A mix and match of outfielders and a shortstop would probably work - thus you'd be starting at Gose and Hechavarria mixed with a pitcher or two, and probably climb up from there. Unless, of course, Atlanta wants to do another Escobar type trade :)

Atlanta is worth watching this winter. If they take the collapse too seriously they could royally screw up their team long term. Lets hope AA takes full advantage.

Even with Heyward the Braves are really thin in the OF right now. Prado is their starting LF and he was awful this season. Michael Bourne is going to be a free agent after next season. The Braves are also very thin in OF prospects and could really use a player like Gose. The Jays need starting pitching and the Braves have what the Jays need. A Gose for Minor trade makes sense for both teams. If the Braves were willing to eat some of Lowe's salary, I would also be interested in him. He had a horrible ERA this season but his xFIP was 3.65, is a proven innings eater (10 straight years of 180+ innings), is still an extreme groundball pitcher, and is in his contract year.

How about Gose/Cecil for Minor/Lowe with the Braves kicking in 7 million.

A starting rotation of:

Romero
Minor
Morrow
Alvarez
Lowe

doesn't look that bad.

John Northey - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 12:58 AM EDT (#245012) #

Speaking of interesting...
The Giants have holes at CF and SS. The Jays have two young all-stars at those positions and 2 hot prospects in the minors at those positions. The Giants also have a major budget issue ($124 mil and climbing) plus a lot of expensive pitching.

Zito is the albatross, $46 million over the next 2 years (including buyout for 2014). Lincecum hasn't a deal for next year and has just 2 left before free agency. Cain is signed for $15 next year then is a free agent. Vogelsong is in arbitration and has just 2 years pre free agency (I think). That is one expensive rotation.

Interesting possibilities exist there for a team with cash available and a creative GM.

Spookie Wookie - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 01:20 AM EDT (#245013) #

Ron - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 01:48 AM EDT (#245014) #

Regarding trading Gose for pitching, aren't the Jays a little thin in the outfield as well? Other than Rasmus and Bautista, there's Snider (7 hrs in 479 PA), Thames (-15.9 UZR/150), Davis, Teahen and Loewen. Gose might be the best bet to fill that 3rd outfield spot, in say, 2013, and that assumes Rasmus succeeds.

Minor has a good strikeout rate, but gives up a lot of hits, and with a fastball at only 91 mph, not sure how well he works out as a top-of-the-rotation guy in the AL East.

The Jays already have too many OF's at the major league level (This is taking into account Teahen being bought out and Loewen playing for another team). By 2013, there's a chance Marisnick will be close to the majors. It's time to sell high on Gose right now.

I'm not worried that Minor's fastball is 91mph. Romero's fastball is only 1mph faster than Minor's. I like the whole package (good stuff, young, cheap, won't be a FA for a long time).

uglyone - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 02:53 AM EDT (#245015) #

OF is definitely a position of depth.

Bautista 30
(Loewen 27)
Rasmus 24
Thames 24
Snider 23
Sierra 22
Gose 20
Marisnick 20
Knecht 20
Crouse 20
Anderson 18
Smith 18

bball12 - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 04:03 AM EDT (#245016) #

I look at it more as "potential" depth - than actual depth.
Here is why:

(With the obvious exception of Bautista - who operates in a different universe)

Loewen - I really like Adam alot - but basically - he has had one good 6 month period (in Vegas - home of the fly balls that never stop flying) - He is also 27 - if 27 is old for others - it must be old for Adam as well.
Rasmus - 3 years - more headlines than hits. Has shown potential - but no consistent performance.
Thames - more potential - reasons to be hopeful - but lotsof holes in his game - (he is a DH).
Snider - Potential - Again - 3 years - ugh.
The rest - lots of great potential - with alot more experience needed in every case.

The thing I like best about the younger guys on this list is that you could see most of these players bringing a better balance to the outfield.
A move away from the "Homer Happy - I can olny do one thing well" mentality.

AA is moving in the right direction with the young guys he has.
I think he knows that in order to be truly competitive you need a more balanced team.
Guys that can do more than one thing well.
Several of these young guys may fit that mold - years from now.

By the way - I would like to congratulate the Red Sox - they made my winter.

TamRa - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 04:40 AM EDT (#245017) #

Brian Jeroloman: Recalled August 23. 0 games played. I feel this needs to be noted in any recap of the year, though I'm not clear why.

Apparently JPA tweeted at some point that Jereoloman wasn't completely healthy. So I've heard.

Magpie - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 06:56 AM EDT (#245018) #

JPA tweeted at some point that Jereoloman wasn't completely healthy.

Indeed he did, tweeting "He's hurt," in response to a fan asking why Jeroloman hadn't played.

Chuck - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 08:40 AM EDT (#245021) #

Chuck, you're better than that. Your 3 catchers at age 25:

Rod Barajas: 110 PA, 160/191/274, OPS+ 15
John Buck: 409 PA, 245/306/396, OPS+ 80
JP Arencibia: 486 PA, 219/282/438, OPS+ 91

Oh, I wasn't trying to suggest that they are interchangable. I'm just saying that the hitting profiles of Toronto's catchers has been the same for quite a while now: low OBP, good ISO/SLG. I'm glad that the organization was smart enough to let Buck walk away after his career year, and to let Barajas walk away before him.

I'm pleased with Arencibia's rookie season and think he has a much higher ceiling than the other two. I don't think he'll ever be a star, but he should be a decent major leaguer for years to come.

baagcur - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 08:49 AM EDT (#245022) #

Indeed he did, tweeting "He's hurt," in response to a fan asking why Jeroloman hadn't played.

I'd be hurt too

Denoit - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 08:50 AM EDT (#245023) #

There is a lot of hate for Adam Lind. He was right back on track the first half of the season before injuries caught up to him. Yes you look at his overall stats and it was another down year. But if you disect them further you will see that the first half was very reminicient of 2009. I for one believe in the talent and believe in that swing. Is he the offensive threat that Prince Feilder is? No. But at 5M$ over the next three years your probably looking at close to 15M$ savings at that position.
I would love to see that money put towards a legitimate top of the rotation pitcher.
I would be very surprised if Lind didnt have a few more .290/.350/.500 seasons in him.

Dewey - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 09:10 AM EDT (#245026) #

Hey guys, thought you might like a postcard from here in schadenfreude hell. It’s a quaintly familiar, ages-old principality. That large, quivering gelatinous mass you see in the photo is apparently the Sons of Sam Horn, exuding contempt, loathing and general ill-will. Our group had buckets of schaden for everybody, especially Jonathan P., who insisted this wouldn’t define him as a player. Sort of like Mitch Williams. Or Dick Cheney. We slopped some of it on that smug little weasel, Pedroia, whose homer early in the game the announcers were suggesting had settled it all. He has no sense of humour. And we saved some for the ugly, buzzard-like pate of Youk, who’s still sitting there on the bench, sulking. I have to confess that we couldn’t stop ourselves from breaking out in choruses of “Sweet Caroline” whenever we met up with tidy, well-groomed members of Red Sox Nation, all decked out in their expensive panoply of Red Sox Regalia. And we would sway a little bit, just to rub it in. Saw Chuck a while ago, having a grand time; and Gerry, with his ‘tape recorder’; but nobody would talk to him. Again, no sense of humour. Gene Mauch sends his best wishes from the ’64 Phillies; and Leo sends something from the sad end of summer for the ’69 Cubs. Even poor Billy B. is no longer so poor. Oh sweet, sweet. . . . Suh weet caare oh line . [swaying, with feeling]

Chuck - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 09:15 AM EDT (#245027) #

Dewey, good times never seemed so good. And when I hurt? Hurting runs off my shoulders.

Chuck - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 09:25 AM EDT (#245028) #

But at 5M$ over the next three years your probably looking at close to 15M$ savings at that position.

I'm not necessarily arguing that the team needs to spend 20MM a year for a first baseman, but this argument of savings introduces a false dichotomy, i.e., that money has to be spent here or spent there, not in both places. Rogers has the money to spend here and there. They just choose not to.

And if savings is the key, you can spend $400K per position and save a bundle. Then you can collect revenue sharing bounty from the other owners and call yourself the Marlins. And then extort funds from the taxpayers to fund a new stadium. And save even more money.

As for Lind's swing... it is a nice swing. The trouble is, he uses it indiscriminately. And that leads to sub-300 OBPs. If he could regulate its usage, he'd be more than a player in the bottom of the league at his position. But he doesn't seem to be able to exercise the requisite discipline.

Chuck - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 09:28 AM EDT (#245029) #

in the bottom of the league at his position

in the bottom HALF of the league at his position

John Northey - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 09:35 AM EDT (#245030) #

While it is fun to see one of the two evil empires collapse in such a big way, I can identify with the fans. Just ask anyone who was here for it in 1987. Watching Ernie Whitt on the bench with a bat in hand praying for a chance to hit, seeing all those close games in a row being lost despite a killer pen, having a guy run the team who just couldn't figure anything out. Ouch.

finch - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 09:56 AM EDT (#245033) #

With the end of the season, I was thinking what our top 20 prospect list would look like. Here are my thoughts of what it would be:

1 Travis d'Arnaud
2 Drew Hutchison
3 Jacob Marisnick
4 Anthony Gose
5 Justin Nicolino
6 Noah Syndergaard
7 Deck McGuire
8 Nestor Molina
9 Daniel Norris
10 Aaron Sanchez
11 Chris Hawkins
12 Carlos Perez
13 Hechavarria
14 Chad Jenkins
15 Jacob Anderson
16 Asher Wojciechowski
17 Michael Crouse
18 AJ Jimenez
19 Cardona
20 Matthew Dean

That is my attempt at the top 20.

Mike Green - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 10:09 AM EDT (#245035) #

finch, that's a good effort. I have no idea how I would rank the pitchers, and where exactly they would slot in. I do disagree that Hawkins is a better prospect than Jimenez at this point.

Dewey - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 10:21 AM EDT (#245036) #

Oh, John, for Pete’s sake! There’s no comparison between contemporary Red Sox Nation and the Jays fans in the stands at the Ex in 1987. I was there for every game. (Damned Kirk Gibson. And the games weren’t merely “close”: every single one with the Tigers was decided by one effing run.) We were all *hoping* we could win. But we didn’t know we were destined to win. Entitled to win. None of our pitchers had predicted 100 wins for us in the Spring. C’mon. You’re going soft.

John Northey - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#245039) #

It is more the pain of losing. 1987 hurt. A lot. Of course, I was working with a Detroit Tiger fanatic so that just made it a whole lot worse.

It did help to see them killed in the first round though :)

Chuck - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#245040) #

Dewey, I agree with your take. Beantowners, with two recent championships under their belt and a preternatural sense of self-worth, believe Providence to be on their side. The meek Canadians sitting on cold, tin benches 24 years ago were hopeful, cautiously optimistic and ultimately disappointed. But at no point did we presume Destiny to be riding shotgun on our journey.

John Northey - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#245041) #

This gets me thinking about the past few years top 30...
2010's list
2009
2008

The #1 those years...

2008: Travis Snider - also top 10 were 2011 contributors Cecil, JPA, Cooper, Mills, Romero and Rzep
2009: Zach Stewart - also top 10 were 2011's Alvarez, JPA, Coooper, Farquhar and traded away Collins and Pastornicky
2010: Drabek and 2011's JPA, Stewart, Alvarez, and Thames.

Interesting to see the BB crew called it with Alvarez and Thames in the top 10 (although call up times were off by a bit).

John Northey - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 10:51 AM EDT (#245042) #

Hey Chuck, speak for yourself. Going into 1987 (and 1986 and 1988 through 1994) I know I was certain, as was virtually everyone I knew, that the Jays were the best around and should win the World Series if we'd just get a decent manager (#&&! Jimy Williams) and a bit of luck. The Jays back then were the class of the AL - able to keep anyone we wanted to, a bit of a challenge to get free agents but if the Jays really wanted a guy they got him it seemed like.

Hard for fans today to remember/imagine, but I still have a copy of USA Today from the early 90's with the headline 'Damn Blue Jays' thanks to the massive payroll and ability to get anyone and win with them. The Jays had the cash, the talent, and the fan support to do anything then and everyone knew it. Just seemed we kept having bizarre things happen (Fernandez arm getting broken, Whitt's ribs injured in 1987, the bizarre DH Bell mess, not playing Fielder or making him play 3B, a knuckleballer who wouldn't throw his knuckleball, ...) until 1992.

Chuck - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 11:00 AM EDT (#245044) #

Hey Chuck, speak for yourself.

John, yours was just a Canadian's version of swagger! Very different than its counterpart south of the border. Or perhaps you weren't old enough yet to know better. ;)

Mylegacy - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 02:28 PM EDT (#245093) #

John - I remember 87 too. It is seared in my mind...

I'm pretty sure we were 4.5 up with 7 games to go and we lost all 7 by - I think - 1 run each game. Tony's elbow was mangled by the wooden frame of the artificial turf where it met the dirt around 2nd. We had such a good team that year - truly a wonderful team.

Sigh.

Spookie Wookie - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#245104) #

I was 9 years old in '87 and that final game of the season was the first time I learned of the pain and heartbreak that goes along with being a fan of a sports team. I definitely saw the collapse as shocking at the time. A very talented team that had won the AL East already in '85. The '86 team was good as well but had some starting pitching problems (e.g., Stieb injured).

Living in New England now, I'm very happy about what happened with the Red Sox. These fans deserve every bit of disappointment that comes their way.

uglyone - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 03:33 PM EDT (#245114) #

I look at it more as "potential" depth - than actual depth.

Not that I didn't call it a position of STRENGTH, but only a position of DEPTH. Which is what IMO it definitely is. Every guy on that list (minus maybe the guy in brackets - Loewen) is a legit MLB talent or a legit potential MLB talent with trade value, IMO.

Richard S.S. - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#245122) #

On September 24,1987, Tony Fernandez was out for the season. It was the 1st game of a 7-game home stand, a Mike Flannigan start: 4-3 win over Detroit and a 1.5 game lead. On the 25th, a Jimmy Key start, Toronto won in the bottom of the 9th: 3-2 over Detroit. Their Magic Number is 7. On the 26th, a Dave Stieb start, Toronto won in the bottom of the 9th: 10-9 over Detroit. It was their 7th win in a row, their last of the season. The 27th, a Jim Clancy start, Toronto lost to Detroit: 3-2 in the 13th. Toronto's lead in the division was just 2.5 games.

On September 28, a Mike Flannigan start, Toronto lost to Milwaukee 6-4 in 9. Their lead was still 2.5. On the 29th, a Jimmy Key start, Ernie Whitt was injured, out for the season. The Jays lost 5-3 to Milwaukee. On the 30th, a Dave Stieb start, the Jays finish off their homestand with a 5-2 loss to Milwaukee. Their Magic Number is down to 3. It should be noted that Flannigan, Key and Stieb have all pitched on just 3 days rest. So, just maybe the Fernandez injury / Whitt injury wasn't the only reason for the collapse.

The final 3 games, at Detriot, Toronto need two wins to clinch the Division. They need one win to clinch a 163rd game playoff. They lose 4-3 in 8.5 innings on the 2nd of October, a Jim Clancy start. On the 3rd, Mike Flannigan pitches 11 innings; they lose 3-2 in the 12th. Finally, on the 4th, a Jimmy Key start, in 8.5, they lose 1-0. This is where the CHOKE label originated.

Magpie - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#245128) #

This is where the CHOKE label originated.

It was really the combination of the blowing the 3-1 lead in the 1985 ALCS and losing 3.5 game lead with 7 to play that created the "Blow Jays." The franchise's reputation could have survived either of these by itself - after all, the 1985 Royals did the exact same thing (rally from 3-1 down) against St Louis in the World Series, and the 1987 Jays were crippled by injury at the two most important positions. But they couldn't get away with both disasters.

John Northey - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#245138) #

As I've said many times, Jimy Williams was a disaster as manager. Look back at that '87 team and see the weirdness...
1B: Upshaw played in 150 games despite a 87 OPS+ while McGriff and Fielder platooned at DH (130/133 OPS+)
2B: Iorg (44 OPS+ in final season) was the everyday 2B after dumping Sharperson after just 32 games (43 OPS+ in rookie season). Manny Lee was far superior defensively and had a 67 OPS+, Liriano was finally called up in late August and had a 72 OPS+. Yet Iorg was the final out for the season.
3B: Gruber's 77 OPS+ kept getting in there while Mulliniks' 127 was platooned with Gruber or Iorg depending.

Rotation? Key, Clancy, and Stieb had great years, Flanagan was great once acquired, but 14 starts wasted on Joe Johnson (88 ERA+ after a 110 the year before, but with a 4.0 K rate), 9 on Nunez (a rule 5 pick), 21 for Cerutti (4.75 ERA as a starter, a bit below average), just 3 starts for Niekro with 7 days rest each time (knuckleballers need regular starts to be effective), 2 for David Wells (we all know how good he became) and so on.

The pen had Henke at his peak and Eichhorn at his (127 IP with a 143 ERA+).

For that team to lose required a lot of effort on Williams part. At the end if they used Key/Stieb/Clancy/Flanagan/Cerutti skipping Cerutti whenever an off day happened they might have made it. If they benched Upshaw once it was obvious he was done and played Fielder & McGriff they might have made it. If they stopped being slaves to platooning Mulliniks just because they always did they might have made it. If Sharperson was left at 2B or Lee was left there they might have made it. If Niekro was allowed to pitch on regular rest instead of extended...

Sigh. So many 'what ifs'. Lets hope we start having new ones next year as that would require the Jays to be there at the end.

Magpie - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#245143) #

A little revisionism, John? Niekro was toast by this time, and Stieb actually had a pretty mediocre year. Agree about Upshaw. Iorg basically sat on the bench once Liriano came up. He was playing 3b on that final day, against the LH Tanana (Rance never could hit a LHP, which prolonged Garth's career by several years.) I thought at the time that they pulled the plug much too soon on Sharperson (but they did trade him for Juan Guzman.)

grjas - Friday, September 30 2011 @ 08:46 PM EDT (#245156) #

"As I've said many times, Jimy Williams was a disaster as manager. Look back at that '87 team and see the weirdness..."

My worst memory of that year is in, I think it was the last game where Flanagan was pitching his heart out and the team was down only 1-0. The camera panned to the dugout in the 6th or 7th inning and Williams was staring at the ground looking dejected. Jays were only down by one run and that bozo had the look of defeat on his face. How inspirational for his team.

(Of course a close second was the Madlock slide that took out Fernandez. "Just aggressive base running" the pundits said. Total BS- Tony was standing back of the bag and Madlock slid well clear of the bag taking him out at the knees. i was astonished none of the Jays went after him. If I was the pitcher i would have been throwing at the f*****'s head.)

adrianveidt - Saturday, October 01 2011 @ 12:48 PM EDT (#245169) #

Vernon Wells' contract just cost another gm his job.

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