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Have we reached the point where we're grumpy and dissatisfied with a team that made it to the American League Championship Series?

I don't think so. I hope not, anyway.


The grades, as always, are extracted from my nether regions, by a process that can in no way whatsoever be described as scientific. And what the grades mean, more or less, is this:

A - Outstanding (in the MVP discussion)
B - Good (maybe an All-Star, who knows)
C - Average (generic regular)
D - Below Average (Replacement Level, more or less. A bench part)
E - Fail (Belongs in the minors)
F - Epic Fail (Needs to look for another line of work)

MANAGEMENT

John Gibbons C+

Like pretty well every manager who ever lived, there are things he does well and things he doesn't do so well. Gibbons doesn't panic. He keeps the team running on an even keel, he appears to have his players respect and he has them all pulling in the same direction. These abilities should never be underestimated. But Gibbons isn't a problem solver. When something goes sideways he doesn't really bring anything to the table that might fix it. Once again - shades of 2008 - John Gibbons found himself running a somewhat dysfunctional offense. You'll recall that when the offense was scuffling early in the year, it was the players who went to him with an idea.  And when they were scuffling again at the end of the year, it seems there was nothing anyone can do. So - what was weird about this year's offense? Well, they struck out a ton, but they also led the majors in GIDPs. It's an odd combination. The Angels hit into almost as many DPs as Toronto, but that makes sense - the Angels put the ball in play. They struck out less often than any other major league team. And on the other hand, there's Tampa Bay. The Rays' hitters struck out even more often than the Jays. And that's probably one of the reasons why Tampa hit into the  fewest DPs of any major league team, with barely half as many GIDPS as Toronto.  Somehow, the Blue Jays managed the worst of both worlds. And John Gibbons isn't a mechanic. He's a pilot. You always need a pilot, but sometimes you need to get under the hood and fix things as well.

Ross Atkins B-
I think you have to regard much of this year as a learning experience. This was a whole new group of players to get acquainted with - and by group of players, I mean the 150 or so guys under team control, not just the ones we saw with the major league team. Not to mention all the other people working for him throughout the organization. I did like that when the winter's bullpen moves (Storen, Chavez, Floyd) didn't work, he was able to make effective upgrades in mid-stream.

Rogers Media C

We weren't talking about ownership nearly as much as in past years. This is a good thing, and earns the corporation a gentleman's C. But let's serve notice - the Blue Jays just finished leading the league in attendance. I think there's now an obligation to do something to help the ball club with all that new money .

*************************************************************************************************************************

John Donaldson A
He was basically repeating his 2015 MVP season until injuries ground him down in September (.222/.391/.389). It may not have looked quite as impressive as the previous year, but that's mostly because we'd grown accustomed to it (although I suppose it really wasn't quite as awesome.)  A helluva ballplayer. He's obviously the best hitter at his position in franchise history, and I think only Scott Rolen was a better defender.

Edwin Encarnacion A
Edwin established new career highs in just about every counting category there is - runs, hits, HRs, RBIs, BB - which is exactly what you'd want to do in your walk year. He wasn't quite as effective per at bat as he had been in previous years, but he was in the lineup for 160 games and came to the plate 702 times. (Those were career highs as well.) And like lots of guys on this team, he struck out far more often than he ever had before (another career high! Along with GIDPs.)  He's improved considerably as a first baseman, especially at scooping the low throw. He's actually competent now.

J.A. Happ A
After the 2014 season, I wrote this about Happ: Something doesn't quite add up.  It's as if all the pieces are there, but they don't fit together... he ought to be a little better than this. Puzzles me. Well, if I knew what it was, I'd be a pitching coach, wouldn't I? And wouldn't you know it - in 2015, Happ hooked up with a pitching coach who found a way to help him put those pieces together. His consistency this season was a thing to behold. He started 32 times and just one of them was a stinker (vs Tampa on 16 May) - just five times did he have a Game Score below 50. He went 20-4 and there was nothing cheap about it - only one of those victories counts as a Cheap Win (Game Score below 50.) and Happ actually took a Tough Loss this season (when Gavin Floyd came out of the pen in a 2-2 tie in the eighth inning, hit a batter and then gave up a three-run HR to Eduardo Nunez.)

Aaron Sanchez A
Should emerge as the team's unquestioned ace next season. I would assume that there will no limitations on him anymore. His first full season as a starter was a learning experience of course, and Sanchez surely learned an awful lot about himself and the job, what he can do, what he can't. You sure have to like that he was able to lead the league in ERA in the course of this learning experience. Colour me impressed.  If anyone on this staff is going to come close to filling Roy Halladay's big spikes, he's the one. Sanchez had 1 Cheap Win this season, and no Tough Losses.

Joaquin Benoit B+
He's a free agent, and the team already has one ancient reliever on the roster. As well as Benoit pitched after arriving in Toronto I don't know if they'd want a second one. Sure enjoyed having him around, though. He pitched just great, and seems like a good fellow.

Troy Tulowitzki B

This is pretty much who Tulowitzki has always been, once you got him out of Coors Field and took the air out of his offensive numbers. He's a productive complementary bat and still a very good shortstop. I could watch him sling those bullets to first base all day long. Only Tony Fernandez came up with more interesting arm angles for throwing the ball, and while Tony had a strong arm when he was young, it still wasn't as strong as Tulo's. He's one of those guys, like Brooks Robinson and John Olerud, with no foot speed at all but exceptional first step quickness - that's what makes them such fine defensive players. He's a Blue Jay now, and accordingly he struck out more frequently this past year than at any time since his rookie year.

Marco Estrada B
Estrada picked up where he left off after his breakout season in 2015, and even got himself named to the All-Star Team. But about a month after the All-Star Break, pitching through his back injury caught up with Estrada and he stunk the joint out for about a month (1-4, 7.53 in six starts from mid-August through mid-September.) But he came out of it, finished the season strong and went to provide some very good post-season starts. The lesson, as always - if you can mess with the batter's timing, you will get the better of major league hitters. It's a fundamental truth of the game. Estrada took 3 Tough Losses this year, and no Cheap WIns.

Roberto Osuna B

He's good. He's not one of the league's great relievers, but he's a solid, quality reliever. I'm happy to have him continue doing what he's doing right now. I don't know if he could become a starter - he's got secondary pitches, but they don't strike me as all that exciting - certainly nowhere near as exciting as his fastball. Plus he's run out of gas in September two years in a row. I'm a little skeptical about his arm holding up under a starter's workload.

Russell Martin B
Surrounded by a multitude of RH sluggers, he got into the act as well and blew way past his previous career high for strikeouts. Well, he's always been an unpredictable hitter - he's had years as a line drive hitter with a decent BAVG and medium power - in his old age, he seems to have decided to become a minor slugger. His defensive tools are slipping, but he pretty clearly does a tremendous job working with his pitchers. And while he had a tough time throwing out baserunners, this group of starting pitchers was giving him as little help as the legal limit allows.

Jason Grilli B

Did a wonderful job after coming over from the Braves at the end of May, going 4-1, 1.42 with 14 Holds in his first 33 games with the team. He took over the eighth inning, and began to give the bullpen some shape and definition. And then he quite obviously ran out of gas, allowing 12 ER in 10.1 IP over his final 13 outings. He ain't getting any younger - none of us are - but age 39 does seem a strange time to post a career high with 67 game appearances. He'll be back, and he should still be effective, but he needs to be used just a little more judiciously. Grilli's fastball sits in the low 90s, which isn't all that impressive by the standard of modern relievers - nevertheless Grilli was the Blue Jay pitcher whose game most resembled that of Nolan Ryan. Grilli was the hardest pitcher on the team to get a hit against (just 6.0 per 9 IP),  he was the guy with the highest K rate (12.4 per 9) and he was also the guy who issued the most BB (4.1 per 9). That's exactly how the Express used to roll. Grilli's Achilles heel this year was the long ball, as he allowed 8 of them in his 42 IP - but half of them, as you might expect, came in the final month when he was pretty clearly running on fumes.

Devon Travis B
Yet another RH hitter who swings and misses an awful lot - if he'd played a full season, he'd have fanned about 130 times. It would be nice to see him actually play a full season at some point. His entire game seems a little streaky - he goes into slumps in the field as well as at the dish. Still young and growing, still in the process of becoming what he's going to be. Still looking quite promising indeed, but needs a little more durability, a little more consistency.

Joe Biagini B
Gave up more than 1 hit per inning, which is unusual if you're going to succeed as a major league relief pitcher. He got away with it because he doesn't walk very many batters, and he simply doesn't allow home runs. So you have to string hits together to score against him, which is never an easy task. Because of the type of pitcher he is, one would expect that Biagini would not be the man you'd want coming into a game when there are already people on base, as he's more likely to give up a base hit than most of his bullpen mates. But Biagini actually did a superb job at stranding the baserunners he inherited, allowing just 5 of 26 to cross the plate. He was good enough at this role that he's unlikely to find another - they're not going to send him to Buffalo and have him work on becoming a starter. The team needs him right where he is.

Michael Saunders B
Kind of a weird season.  This team has a crying, desperate need for LH hitting - and while Saunders hit quite a bit better than I think anyone had a right to expect, he hit better against LH pitching (.275/.358/.569). Go figure. That was probably a one-year fluke, but there ya go. As everyone noticed, he went right off the cliff after the All-Star Break (.178/.282/.357). There was no real reason for it that I know of - but he was coming off missing a year with knee surgery while playing the outfield full time on artifical turf. He may have just run down. He didn't play nearly as much in the second half - as his performance warranted - and his bat started coming back to life in the post-season. And on a team awash with hitters who struck out and struck out and struck out - no one struck out as often as Saunders. Finally, he was almost as bad in the outfield as Bautista, and with less excuse. It was an adventure, and the good times did outweigh the bad. I can't see him getting a qualifying offer - $17 million for Michael Saunders? Really? - so we'll have to see how this plays out.

Francisco Liriano B
His brief tenure with the team last year breaks very nicely into two halves. He began by making 4 starts and then a relief appearance, and he was pretty ordinary, going 1-1, 4.76 and allowing 16 runs in 22.1 IP. And then something clicked. Maybe he and Martin completed the Renewal of their Acquaintance because in his second half as a Jay (a relief appearance and then another 4 starts) he was simply sensational - he went 1-1, 1.35,  and allowed just 6 runs in 26.1 IP. He's still got that power arm and that vicious slider. I expect that over a full season, Liriano will be better next year than Stroman and Dickey were this year.

Kevin Pillar C+
I often find myself thinking -  look, the AL is teeming with excellent defensive players in CF (Jones, Bradley, Kiermaier, Cain, Martin, Trout). These players provide a lot with the glove themselves and some of them give you much more with the bat. I think we're now past the point where we can expect Pillar's bat to improve. He's simply not a good hitter, and he's not getting any better. The team can do better than this, surely. And then you watch Pillar play defense and you fall for him all over again. So he's Andrelton Simmons, in centre field. I know some will think the grade is a touch too low. But he's an outfielder with a .679 OPS - it's normally impossible for me to give such a player a grade higher than D+. It just goes against the grain, folks. But for Pillar, one has to make an exception. So one does.

Jose Bautista C
His skills are narrowing, but he's still Jose Bautista. He can still turn on a 99 mph fastball and he still has tremendous plate discipline. His work this year was most definitely not what you want to do in your walk year. Through April, Bautista was picking up more or less right where he left off after his outstanding 2015 season (.250/.393/.536). Then he hurt himself playing the outfield. He got back into the lineup, started shaking off the rust, and hurt himself again. All of this cost him about a third of his season. Like everyone else on the team, he struck out more frequently than he ever has before. It's also pretty clear that he's not a major league right fielder any more. He might be up to playing LF in a park with a small outfield, but how many of those are left anyway besides Fenway and Wrigley?  I think he's probably through in Toronto - I get the sense that everyone's just tired of him, the same way they were tired of George Bell by 1990. Well, I never got tired of George Bell and I'll never get tired of Jose Bautista either. I expect he and Encarnacion will both receive qualifying offers, and Bautista will be Plan B if they can't bring Encarnacion back. And if not - we'll always have the warm and fuzzy memory of one of the greatest trades in the history of the game, his rampage through the 2015 post-season, and a bat flip for the ages. We'll always have Game Five.

Marcus Stroman C
One doesn't really want to talk in terms of "what went wrong" about a team that had a post-season run, so let's talk about "what didn't go right" - and what didn't go right for the 2016 Blue Jays were disappointing performances by three players being counted on for much more than they delivered. One, obviously, was Bautista. The second was Stroman, who was expected to be an ace and instead turned into a league average innings-eater. Which was considerably less than was expected. Stroman ended up taking over R.A. Dickey's role on the team, as Dickey himself began to fade out of the picture. What happened? I think Stroman just fell in love with the sinker, and threw so many that he lost a bit of his feel for his other pitches. No pitcher in baseball got as many groundballs, and groundballs will find holes between the fielders. I expect he's learned something from the experience. As we know, and as we all appreciate about him, he's not the type of competitor who would be satisfied with this year's work. Like Estrada, Stroman took 3 Tough Losses this season, and had no Cheap Wins.

R.A. Dickey C-
I think he's almost done, folks. Superficially, his season doesn't look all that different from Stroman's. Dickey allows more HRs and more walks - not a lot more, but enough that he should give up quite a few more runs. (Dickey does catch a break on ERA compared to Stroman - Dickey's baserunners advance on passed balls, whereas Stroman's advance on stolen bases and wild pitches.) But the main reason their numbers were as close to each other as they were this year was almost entirely because of how they pitched with men on base. With the bases empty, Stroman (.235/.301/.394) was much better than Dickey (.279/.333/.489). But once they were working out of the stretch, Dickey toughened up considerably (.224/.318/.416) and Stroman went the other way (.280/.331/.425) - and with runners already on, it's the gap in BAVG that makes the difference here, that brought those runners across the plate. But here's the thing - I don't think what Dickey did there is sustainable. It saved his season from becoming a complete disaster but I don't think it's an ability. I think it's just something that happened. On the other hand, if he can just find himself a home field with a big outfield (and speedy outfielders), he could be effective for a while yet. Dickey took 5 Tough Losses this year, to lead the team, but he also got 3 Cheap Wins, again leading the team.

Ryan Tepera C-
Quite obviously has not earned the manager's trust. If the game hadn't already gone to extra innings, the Jays had to be either ahead by seven or down by four before Tepera would get a chance. Still, he generally did a good job when asked. His year must have been a strange experience. I don't know how many separate stints he had with the team - I lost count after five. Tepera was able to deal with the issue that hurt him so much in his taste of the majors in 2015 - namely the utterly absurd number of HRs hit against him. He gave up just one long ball this past year. There should be an opportunity for him next year - Benoit certainly and quite likely Cecil as well could both be gone. Tepera needs a good spring to make the team in the first place, and then he'll need to pitch well in his April opportunities to gain his manager's trust.

Darwin Barney D+
Hit unexpectedly well for a couple of months, but it turned out that he's still Darwin Barney and regression to the mean is still a cruel mistress. But he's a fine utility infielder - he's a good defensive player at three infield spots, and he's not a complete black hole at the plate. He didn't even look out of place in some emergency outfield appearances.

Ezequiel Carrera D+
You sure do see this a lot. A guy comes off the bench, full of energy and focus, and plays so well for a couple of weeks that you actually start to wonder if he can fill a larger role. They almost never can - the grind, the sheer drudgery of playing everyday always gets to them, and sends them back to the bench in due course. I think Carrera and Upton are both fourth outfielders, but I like Carrera  better. This team has no shortage of RH batters swinging from their heels. Carrera's a different kind of player than the other guys on this team - he hits left-handed, he can run, he can handle the bat - and if you gave him 600 ABs, he'd strike out 150 times. That, surely, makes him a True Blue Jay. Gibbons seems to love him, more than is probably good for the team, but managers often fall in love with guys like this.

Gavin Floyd D+
He can still pitch a little - he allowed just 23 H and 8 BB in 31 IP, which is certainly good enough to fill a role in a major league bullpen. But Floyd hasn't made it through a season unscathed since 2012, and if he can't do that it really doesn't matter how well he can pitch.

Justin Smoak D
Justin Smoak was one of six first basemen taken in the first 18 picks of the 2008 draft. Eric Hosmer (3rd overall) has clearly been the most successful, having now put in six years as a regular, providing pretty good offensive production in three of them while also picking up a couple of (undeserved) Gold Gloves. As for the rest - while Hosmer's career OPS is .763 is the best of the bunch, the second best was turned in by the unfortunate David Cooper (.750). But the doctors called off Cooper's career before it really got going and none of Brett Wallace, Ike Davis, or Yonder Alonso ever amounted to much of anything (Davis did hit 32 HRs one year, but it was pretty clearly a fluke.) So Justin Smoak has had the second best career of the bunch. And that's not saying much. He's not really as bad as he looks - no one is that bad - but he's not very good. He draws walks and he hits home runs - that's all he does and he just doesn't do it often enough.

Brett Cecil D
The year's third major disappointment, along with Bautista and Stroman. After his brilliant work in 2015, Cecil moved into a crucial bullpen role and just crapped the bed completely. He had himself just a dreadful, awful, horrible year and it could very well be the last we see of him around these parts as he heads for free agency. Cecil's disastrous April - pitching in key game situations, and pitching very, very badly - put the team in a big hole from the start. Gibbons eventually lost all faith in him, and more or less refused to use him in any kind of game situation until Benoit's late season injury forced his hand. He did pitch well in the post-season, so he salvaged some self-respect.

Melvin Upton D
Meh. Wonderfully fluid athlete, not much of a baseball player. He's now 32 years old, and when the athleticism begins to go, he will have nothing - nothing whatsoever - to sustain him. His job will be to serve as the fourth outfielder, filling in at all the spots, pinch-hitting and pinch-running - you know, Reed Johnson's old job. Which is kind of neat because Upton is, in almost every way possible, the exact opposite of Reed Johnson.

Jesse Chavez D
He's a pretty good pitcher in Oakland. We're not in Oakland.

Bo Schultz D
Schultz is a finesse pitcher. He doesn't have anything he can rely on to get swings and misses. So every time he comes into a game, he has to discover what's working for him that day. Starters have that luxury. Relievers generally don't.

Ryan Goins D-
Did a credible imitation of a major league hitter in 2015, but it all went by the wayside this past season. He reverted totally to his previous form, swinging the bat like an NL's pitcher - one of the better hitting ones, sure, but you'd still ask Strasburg or Wainwright or Bumgarner to pinch hit for him. In all likelihood, he's neither as awful as he looked this season nor as almost-useful as he looked in 2015.  He's probably not good enough to play regularly for anyone, and Barney has clearly passed him by as the backup infielder here - and Goins is only two and a half years younger than Barney.  A change of scene would be good for him. He might be of more use to some other team, one where he can play some shortstop, than he is to this one. Not that he has any real trade value.

Dioner Navarro D-
He's a free agent, the team needs someone to catch 40 or 50 games. You can do worse. The Jays have generally done worse, but we've seen the last of Josh Thole. I promise.

Drew Hutchison D-
Now with Pittsburgh. Maybe Ray Searage can teach him how to pitch. He doesn't need fixes or adjustments. He needs to learn his trade.

Aaron Loup E
I don't know what happened to this guy - after three useful seasons, he turned in his second bad year in a row. But he's still just 28 years old and, more importantly, he's still left-handed. It should keep getting him chances for the next five years at least. And in Toronto, there's obviously a very good chance that Brett Cecil won't be back.

Chad Girodo E
Did you see anything you liked? Besides being left-handed? I didn't.

Scott Feldman E
He was having himself a nice season, and then he came to Toronto. I don't know what he did to offend the goddess of BABiP, but that must have been some crime. I hope it was worth it, because that was ugly.

Junior Lake E
He looks like a baseball player. He's not.

Josh Thole E
Where the Dickey goes, there go I. Thole spent four years in Toronto, playing in 170 games and getting 473 plate appearances. He hit .200/.275/.248, which doesn't really require further explanation. He does do a legitimately good job of dealing with the knuckleball, so he may still be able to find a pitcher somewhere to whom he can hitch his wagon.

Drew Storen E

Seemed like a really good idea at the time.

Chris Colabello F
Busted.



Blue Jays Report Card | 261 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
ayjackson - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 08:11 AM EDT (#334400) #
Kevin Pillar. 3.2 WAR this year.

I don't know, tough to watch him at the plate. Does anyone "see" less pitches per PA?

I'd give Dalton Pompey every opportunity to take the job from him next Spring.
scottt - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 08:29 AM EDT (#334402) #
Biagini has a complete arsenal of pitches and there's no reason not to stretch him in Buffalo as the 6th starter.
There's tons of guys with only 2 pitches and many of these guys eventually figure out how to get hitters out in relief, as Andrew Miller has demonstrated. Biagini was doing great as a starter in AA when the Jays drafted him and they'll eventually need a 6th starter again.

Liriano replacing Dickey and Sanchez not being on inning limit sounds good.

Pompey would have probably done better than Bautista in October.
Pillar should remain the anchor in center and I wonder how an outfield of Upton, Pillar and Pompey would play out, but I wouldn't be surprised if they look for an outfielder with more power to replace Bautista.

The team seems to need more speed and more left bats, even though this year's right handed batters couldn't hit the generic soft tossing lefties. The only issue I have with that is I can't imagine Gibbons managing a team that wins close games. I just can't picture it.

scottt - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 08:39 AM EDT (#334403) #
I don't know what's wrong with Osuna's shoulder, but I think keeps him in the closer role.

Cecil is a funny one. I don't expect him to fetch much on the market, but I don't think he wants to be back. Those comments about the fans booing him, sounds like a change a venue is in order.
Chuck - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 08:48 AM EDT (#334404) #
I agree with the models that suggest that Pillar's glove currently carries his bat. I also agree that he is difficult to watch bat. Painful, in fact. After the 2015 season, I believed he had hit his offensive ceiling and believe that still. I figured that pitchers stood a better chance of figuring him out than vice versa. I can live with him in the 9-hole in 2017 and would expect more of the same of what we saw in 2016. Lots of outs. Lots of defense.

As for pitches per PA, I often have trouble with this stat. Power hitters who swing and miss a lot have long at-bats precisely because they have been unsuccessful in ending their at-bats earlier. This makes them look patient.

I'm more interested in these two questions: how many pitches out of the strike zone does a hitter swing at, and how many pitches in the strike zone does he take? In other words, how good a job does he do swinging at strikes and taking balls?

Looking at Fangraphs, we see:

O-Swing% (proclivity to swing at pitches out of the strike zone): Pillar worst, Travis 2nd worst, Bautista best.
Z-Swing% (proclivity to swing at pitches in the strike zone): Pillar was middling.
Swing% (proclivity to swing at all): Pillar and Travis were at the top.
Contact% (proclivity to make contact on a swing): Pillar and Travis were at the top.

So the profile for Pillar is this (and this is not news to anyone who watched him):

  • takes an average number of called strikes
  • swings at a lot of balls
  • "successfully" makes contact on a lot of his swings meaning a lot of outs on pitchers' pitches
  • doesn't walk because at-bats end early because of his ability to make contact
scottt - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 08:49 AM EDT (#334405) #
I don't know if Travis will ever be healthy. If he had been, it might have been possible to sell high on Goins.
Goins was hitting better a 2B in Buffalo then anyone not named Devon Travis, which isn't saying much.

rpriske - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 09:11 AM EDT (#334407) #
I disagree on Zeke Carrera. I think he has the makings of a solid regular.

There is one thing I really like about Brett Cecil... that he isn't Aaron Loup.

I didn't realize that Grilli wasn't a free agent. That makes 3 relievers I would like to see stay: Osuna, Grilli and Biagini.

I would keep Benoit as well, if he comes at a reasonable cost. And Cecil if that is what it takes for them to kick Loup to the curb.

pooks137 - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 09:20 AM EDT (#334408) #

So Gibbons gets a C+ and the reasoning is the offense stunk, struck out too much and was terrible at GIDP? And he didn't fix it ?

What was he supposed to do? Tell his slow, injured vets to run faster? To stop swinging at garbage? Bunt more? Start the runner more?

Chuck - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 09:23 AM EDT (#334409) #
I disagree on Zeke Carrera. I think he has the makings of a solid regular.

You sure that's not your heart speaking? He's basically Pillar without the defense.

uglyone - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 09:39 AM EDT (#334410) #
"Have we reached the point where we're grumpy and dissatisfied with a team that made it to the American League Championship Series? "

clearly yes.
Magpie - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#334411) #
Re Gibbons: The grade is somewhere between average and good, a judgement which seems pretty bland to me. But it was not really because the offense was such and such, although the way I wrote it up I can certainly see why someone would think that. My bad. At the last minute I came up with this pilot-mechanic distinction, which struck me as kind of useful, and attached it to a discussion of this year's weird offensive issues. There really are managers who fix things, and Gibbons isn't one of them.

But again- some of the guys who can fix things will also fly your plane right into a mountain. You always need a pilot.
Petey Baseball - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 09:59 AM EDT (#334412) #
I have a hunch the Shapkins bunch don't love the idea of Pillar as their everyday CF, nor should they. I'd reckon he'd bring back a decent bullpen piece, maybe similar to the Revere-Storen trade (err...potentially good bullpen piece).

Pompey had a pretty decent season in the minors (injuries shortened it), but it's a lot to ask to step in and play everyday in center. I reckon they flip Pillar for some bullpen help, and try to stopgap CF until they figure out what Pompey is.

I agree with Magpie, it just feels like Jose's time in Toronto is up.
uglyone - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:01 AM EDT (#334413) #
My 2 cents:

A: Donaldson, Sanchez, Happ, Estrada, Osuna, Biagini, Liriano, Benoit, Barney
B: Encarnacion, Pillar, Travis, Tulowitzki, Martin, Saunders, Carrera, (Grilli, Tepera)
C: Bautista, Stroman, Cecil, (Barnes)
D: Smoak, Dickey, Floyd, (Hutchison, Chavez, Loup)
F: Upton, Thole, Goins, Storen, (Feldman, Schultz)
uglyone - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:04 AM EDT (#334414) #
My 2 cents:

A: Donaldson, Sanchez, Happ, Estrada, Osuna, Biagini, Barney, (Liriano, Benoit)
B: Encarnacion, Pillar, Travis, Tulowitzki, Martin, Saunders, Carrera, (Grilli, Tepera)
C: Bautista, Stroman, Cecil, (Barnes)
D: Smoak, Dickey, Floyd, (Hutchison, Chavez, Loup)
F: Colabello, Upton, Thole, Goins, Storen, (Navarro, Feldman, Schultz, Girodo)
perlhack - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:07 AM EDT (#334415) #
In case anybody missed it, Gibbons is back for 2017.
Dave Till - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:08 AM EDT (#334416) #
Re grumpiness: people were grumbling on the Internet (or what there was of it) in 1992 and 1993 too.

Great article as always, Magpie. A few comments:

- Overall, I think that the Jays' problem on offense is that the league has adjusted to their approach, which is to look for a pitch in a particular zone and clobber it. Pitchers who can regularly hit the corners will get two strikes on batter after batter, and the Jays' hitters aren't good at defensive swings (except for Travis, who is exceptionally good at it). This happened yesterday with Merritt - he doesn't have overpowering stuff, but he kept hitting his spots, and the Jays kept falling behind.

- You would rate Rolen better on defense than Donaldson? Wow. I'll have to find old footage of Rolen playing third, then.

- I would rate Osuna higher than a B. He almost always got the job done. (Osuna Matata!) He only looks bad when compared with Andrew Miller, who gets a grade of A++. I agree that he is one tick lower than the best relievers in baseball, but just one.

- I like your comparison of Bautista to Bell: both men play(ed) with a great deal of emotion, which irritates some people more than it really should. It might be time for Joey Bats to go, but we will miss him. I still miss George.

- Justin Smoak's problem is that he is neurologically incapable of protecting the plate when he has two strikes on him. He can either dial it up for the fastball or anticipate a breaking pitch, but he can't do both at once. My mental image of him consists of his waving at a breaking pitch down in the zone and striking out yet again.
Kasi - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#334418) #
I think Gibbons was better this year. My only issue with him was predefined bullpen roles, and there are a lot of signs that both Toronto and especially baseball in general are going to put their best pitchers in earlier instead of running him out for the four run save.

I'm not grumpy with the current team and how they did this year. They should have been a playoff team with the talent they have. I am grumpy about the future of this team though. Even if they resigned EE and added a FA OF this offense would still be worse next year than this year. I don't know what they can do to address the holes in their lineup and the aging group they have there.

Biggest thing i hope for is health for Travis and return to his 2015 form. I think we've seen enough of Pillar that having a second guy who basically has the same batting profile is not a good thing. We need a healthy, more selective and less hacky Travis. That player does exist so I hope he finds it again.
Kasi - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#334419) #
Also agree they need to be less RH focused. Getting a competent LH bat in there would be big. Maybe they should keep Saunders because of that? Dunno who is available.
youngid - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:15 AM EDT (#334420) #
I think Pillar would bring back more than a decent bullpen piece Petey - he was worth 3.2 WAR this year, about the same as Ryan Braun and Yoenis Cespedes. Those guys are worth a bit more to other teams since offense seems to be valued more highly than defence, but Pillar is still a very good player. The team should focus on addressing the other OF positions.
SK in NJ - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#334422) #
The issue with how the league might be changing the way they use relievers is that Gibbons is only good when he has pre-defined roles. When he tries to get creative with bullpen usage, it leads to stuff like 2015, which was awful until August (when Sanchez moved to the pen). Gibbons not realizing that Stroman was going to face the Indians order for the 3rd time in Game 3 was a big reason why they lost the game, and I don't think he would ever manage the type of way that Francona did. Then there was using Osuna when they were down 2 in Game 3 and up 4 in Game 4, both of those situations were pretty low leverage to use the closer (though Game 4 was defensible since it was an elimination game for the Jays). If he can get a bit more progressive on how to use the pen, then he'd be fine overall, but that's clearly his weakness.

Gibby is probably a "C" level manager so that's where I'd rate him. He's not god awful but he's not good either. He's somewhere in the middle. His work in 2016 was remarkably better than 2015, though. I thought he was pretty bad overall in 2015, but fine in 2016 for the most part.
christaylor - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:29 AM EDT (#334423) #
"But again- some of the guys who can fix things will also fly your plane right into a mountain. You always need a pilot."

That sounds like Billy Martin.
Magpie - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:30 AM EDT (#334424) #
That's quite interesting, not-so-handsome-one, but you need to explain the curve you're marking on. Am I right in assuming Barney gets an A because he is the very model of a modern backup infielder and Edwin gets a B because he's a good but not great DH? (I did myself that one year, and found myself giving Johnny Mac a higher grade than Lyle Overbay.)
SK in NJ - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:37 AM EDT (#334425) #
Barney had a 1.5 WAR as a utility infielder off the bench in about 300 plate appearances (higher WAR than both Bautista and Saunders in 2016). That would definitely rate as an 'A' for me as well. He's exactly the type of bench player good teams have. Not a good hitter, but competent enough, and great/versatile on defense.
Mike Green - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:38 AM EDT (#334426) #
Very nicely done, Magpie. I have some longer thoughts, and I might as well put them here and then forget about it.

I have a few differences of opinion (with some repeating themes from past years) and some comments. I would, as always, have placed greater emphasis on defence and position than you did.  The strength of the Blue Jay club this year, in my opinion was down the middle and (of course) at third base.  The starting pitching was also good, but with a big assist from the defence. With that in mind, my comments on some of the player ratings:

THE CREAM

Donaldson- far and away the best player on the club; there has to be a separation between him and anyone else.  I'd give him an A+
Encarnacion- A-; he's a great hitter, but not a stupendous one; I admire his adaptability
Happ- A-; compare with Marcus Stroman- he threw fewer innings and had a higher FIP, but did what it takes...I don't think you can just look at the ERA and wins and pronounce him a Cy Young candidate
Sanchez- A: exactly right; he was a Cy Young candidate and would be a likely winner if he threw 20-30 more innings

THE OUTFIELDERS

Saunders- gave away with the glove as much as he gained with the bat- C
Pillar-  took back a lot more with the glove than he gave away with the bat- B
Bautista- gave away more with the glove than he gained with the bat- C-

DARWIN BARNEY

I did not start the season as a Darwin Barney fan.  I still think that Ryan Goins is about as good a player.  But.  If you are trying to measure what a player gave to a club in a season, D+ for Barney is the one grade that really sticks out for me.  He wasn't quite Tony Phillips, circa 1989, but he was the closest thing to it.  He played a fine second base and hit enough to be a competent everyday second baseman if the club needed that (i.e. when Travis was out), and was an excellent substitute at shortstop, third base and left-field.  BBRef had him at 1.8 WAR over 308 PAs.  I'd make him a B or a B+.


And turning to management...

JOHN GIBBONS

I agree with the grade.  He should be given some credit (along with Pete Walker who I have often criticized) for the health of the pitching staff; on the negative side, he's not a great manager of bullpens and he sometimes does the inexplicable- the Navarro DH move would not inspire confidence.  All that said, I was very disappointed when Shapiro announced that Gibbons would be back for next year.  He's not a bad manager, but he is conservative in his use of players and  I don't think he is the right manager to deal with the changes that the club needs to make, which naturally leads to ...

ROSS ADKINS/MARK SHAPIRO

At this point, they are a team (with Shapiro probably taking a very active role), and I agree with the grade.  I guess the word for this year would be "cautious", but that might change over time (remember when Pat Gillick's nickname was "Stand Pat").  That caution served them well when choosing to spread risk over 2 good starting pitchers (Estrada and Happ) rather than 1 potentially great one (Price).  It did not serve them as well when they picked up Dickey's option (from which it followed that Thole would return), and did not do enough at the deadline to deal with the problem behind the plate.

I love Russell Martin as a player, but he's a catcher and he is 33 years old.  Going into the season, the Blue Jays had nobody behind the plate in the minor leagues who could step in and be decent defensively and hit a little.  They did not have a Roberto Perez stashed in the high minors.  They needed a player (or two) like that.  Josh Thole/R.A. Dickey was a poor answer to the question, and the money could have been better spent on a pitcher who was as good and a better back-up.  It seems like a small point, but it turned out to be a big one when Martin ran out of gas at the end of the year.  Dioner Navarro on August 31 was an inadequate response to the problem. 

It should be noted that the Cleveland club that just advanced and Shapiro had a key hand in building made the key deadline acquisition that put them over the top (Andrew Miller). Shapiro's comment that Gibbons would be back suggested to me that he hasn't quite yet appreciated the value of taking the measure of a situation and adjusting the approach (caution vs. risk-taking) to the situation.  Somewhere in the middle is where you want to be.





uglyone - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:52 AM EDT (#334428) #
yeah magpie i tried to factor expectations into it as well as performance.

Edwin has been almost exactly a 150wrc+ hitter for 4 years running - but this year he dropped a good 15% down to 134. I know buck and pat kept raving all year about his RBI totals but I have a hard time giving him an A after a drop like that.

Meanwhile, on a per usage basis, Barney was actually every bit as good as EE this year - both actually put up the exact same 3.5 average war per 650pa pace this year. Getting that kind of performance from a cheap bench piece for me is a clear A, while getting that performance from a middle of the order Star is a bit of a letdown - even if EE gets credit for playing twice as much.
rpriske - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#334429) #
One thing about the Gibbons-bashing and Francona-beatification...

I am no Gibbons fan. I never have been. I DO like Francona, but let us remember that in the last two games of the series, Francona made two really questionable (which is charitable), bordering on stupid, moves. Once it cost him, once he got bailed out... but they won so it is forgotten.

The first one was in game 4, with runners on 1st and 3rd and NONE out, he chose to walk Josh Donaldson, putting ANOTHER runner in scoring position, to face Encarnacion. There is no defending this. This is just a stupid decision... and he paid for it as Bautista scored from second.

In Game five he pulled Merritt in the 5th, despite him yet to show ANY weakness (that hit he just gave up was a pure lucky drop), to bring in Bryan Shaw, who the Jays had battered the previous day. The sleeping Toronto bats kept on sleeping, so it looked like he was right. Nonsense.

As I said, I LIKE Francona, but it shows that no manager is perfect. (I like Showalter too, and we all know what HE did this post-season...)

I dislike Gibbons, but it isn't for his in-game decisions as much as his temperament.

Kasi - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#334430) #
Gibbons last year of his contract is next year. Now sure if his contract had just expired this would be a different thing. But why Mike would it be fair to fire your manager after an ALCS appearance? Sure he could be better, but he wasn't why this team lost. The hitting was.
uglyone - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:58 AM EDT (#334431) #
agreed rpiske - tito's decisions the last couple games were very questionable.
Kasi - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:58 AM EDT (#334432) #
rpriske I think I could agree with you on the EE vs Josh one, but I'm fine with what he did with Merritt. He had a 3-0 lead at that point and had made it clear that the bullpen was coming in at the first sign. Merritt was getting to the end of the second time through the order and he let a runner on base. Francona squashed it in the bud before it could go further. (lets say he lets Merritt have another at bat or two and gives up another single or two) Basically Francona was saying there is no way he is letting a big inning happen. Now maybe he should have brought in Miller instead of Shaw, but it's not like Shaw is a bad pitcher.
Magpie - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 11:17 AM EDT (#334436) #
I get a weird kind of kick about how every year I get completely blindsided by the response to one grade. (Please be assured, I'm not bringing the snark here. This is fun.)

So this year it's Darwin Barney, eh? I suppose I start from the assumption that if you're a bench player, you're probably a below average player. Of course, Barney was a good bench player. He also played his best ball in the first two months, which is when the team needed it most. Still, the season is six months long, and Barney did hit .215/.296/.315 in the second half of it. He wasn't an MVP candidate, and no one was talking about him as an All-Star. By my lights that eliminates him from the A and B discussion. Your own mileage may vary, of course. But OK, I could be persuaded to bump him up to C-. All the way to a straight C is a bit of a stretch, for me anyway.

Every year! It's always someone!
Dave Till - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 11:22 AM EDT (#334438) #

You always need a pilot, but sometimes you need to get under the hood and fix things as well.

Some of this is the hitting coach's responsibility, not just the manager's - if the hitters are broken and can't be fixed, it might be time to get another hitting coach in there.

Mike Green - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#334439) #
But why Mike would it be fair to fire your manager after an ALCS appearance?

...it's not a question of fairness.  Gibbons will get paid next year's salary regardless. It's about doing your best to put a winning team on the field, and part of that is the right manager to deal with the club as it will be.  I am not happy that Gibbons will be managing a club that ought to have a number of  Dalton Pompey, Rowdy Tellez, Reese McGuire, Harold Ramirez and Richard Urena around at some point next year. 
lexomatic - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 11:36 AM EDT (#334440) #
I would give Goins a D. I think this is mostly what you get. Good defender, no bat. That's maybe better than replacement and there's a place for that, but offense of 2015 levels will be the high end. If his defense is bad too, that's when you give him an F. This was what I expected but less than I hoped.

Pillar- B. His defense this season by all accounts was the best at the position. His bat was significantly worse than last year but I think 265 10 20 is not unrealistic. I think he has more value to the team add a low price starter as long as he's good defensively. If he gets too expensive, you let him go.you replace him when you have a better 2-way option. He let's you carry 2 bad gloves in the outfield.


I think when the jays aren't competitive, Donaldson gets traded, Tulo slides to 3b and Urena at Ss. I see that as 2019


Mike Green - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 11:47 AM EDT (#334442) #
So this year it's Darwin Barney, eh? I suppose I start from the assumption that if you're a bench player, you're probably a below average player. Of course, Barney was a good bench player. He also played his best ball in the first two months, which is when the team needed it most. Still, the season is six months long, and Barney did hit .215/.296/.315 in the second half of it. He wasn't an MVP candidate, and no one was talking about him as an All-Star. By my lights that eliminates him from the A and B discussion. Your own mileage may vary, of course. But OK, I could be persuaded to bump him up to C-. All the way to a straight C is a bit of a stretch, for me anyway.

You know what they say about assumptions.  Anyways I thought the point of the report card was not to measure whether a player is a great player, a good one, an average one, a below-average one or a sinkhole in general.  Rather, it was to look at what the player did that year.  We all know that Jose Bautista has been a much, much, much better player than Darwin Barney over his career, and is likely to be a better one next year even at 36.  In 2016, Barney was the better player and actually it wasn't particularly close. 

I don't get the idea about the bench in general.  Why would one think that a bench player who gets 300 PAs and performs well is less valuable than a reliever who throws 60-70 innings in a medium leverage role and performs well (Joe Biagini say)?  I love Biagini but I just don't see that he did more to help the club win in 2016 than Barney did. 
lexomatic - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 11:48 AM EDT (#334443) #
 that gives you time add well to finish replacements for Estrada and Happ.

maybe Nay makes it to be a 27-31 replacement for Tulo unless Jr can stick.
Anyways. No more speculating

SK in NJ - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#334445) #
Gibbons is signed through 2017 (no more rollover in his contract), so they will have to pay him in 2017 regardless. That's likely a big part of the rationale for keeping him in addition to making the ALCS again. I'd prefer they move on to someone else as well, but I think it's only a matter of time. The circumstances probably made it more logical in their eyes to keep Gibbons for 2017.
uglyone - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#334446) #
I think the key thing with Barney is that 300pa is much more than just a bench role - it's tantamount to being a platoon starter. he played as much this year as a guy like cola did last year.
pooks137 - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#334448) #

Re Gibbons: The grade is somewhere between average and good, a judgement which seems pretty bland to me. But it was not really because the offense was such and such, although the way I wrote it up I can certainly see why someone would think that. My bad. At the last minute I came up with this pilot-mechanic distinction, which struck me as kind of useful, and attached it to a discussion of this year's weird offensive issues. There really are managers who fix things, and Gibbons isn't one of them.

But again- some of the guys who can fix things will also fly your plane right into a mountain. You always need a pilot.

Thanks for the reply Magpie. I didn't mean to sound overly critical. I recognize the work that went into a piece like this. I also recognize it's all a matter of opinion and is meant to entertain

I do actually like the pilot-mechanic analogy and think it probably fits

I also think a lot less instruction and "fixing" happens in-season than people think. If you listen to player interviews, they do very little training other than BP or bullpens over the 162 games because it's such a grind and they have to conserve energy for travel and games. Most, if any, adjustments and corrections are going to be made in the offseason or ST or perhaps during rehab from an injury or during a minors stint when given something to work on.

ComebyDeanChance - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 12:11 PM EDT (#334450) #
The first one was in game 4, with runners on 1st and 3rd and NONE out, he chose to walk Josh Donaldson, putting ANOTHER runner in scoring position, to face Encarnacion. There is no defending this. This is just a stupid decision... and he paid for it as Bautista scored from second.

As it often does, context provides some clues. The play you were talking about came in the bottom of the 7th inning with Cleveland already down 2-1. There were none out. He could have easily played for the double play, but the problem was the runner on third. He'd score making it a 3-1 game with runs scarce. So Francona put the force on at home. And he took the bat out of the hands of the guy who'd already homered that game, and who was turning the game into a highlight reel.
ComebyDeanChance - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 12:17 PM EDT (#334451) #
I think it would have been extraordinary to release Gibbons after making it to the ALCS for a second year in a row. There is also the fact mentioned already that he is signed through next year.

Also, Joaquin Benoit asks, "What does a relief pitcher have to do to get an A around here?' An ERA+ of 1135 apparently ain't good enough.
rpriske - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 12:18 PM EDT (#334452) #
The play was already at home... or look the guy back and get the guy at 1st.

And walking Donaldson to get to Encarnacion is rarely going to work out well for you.

Mike Green - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 12:23 PM EDT (#334453) #
UO, 300 PAs is not a huge amount for a bench player.  Javier Baez had 425.  Seattle had a couple of them. 

The key thing is to recognize that both that the role is significant, and that defence and position matter a lot.  Franklin Gutierrez had 283 PAs for Seattle and hit a lot better than Barney, but at this point in his career is a poor fielder rather than a great one and hence added a lot less value than Barney. 

Mike Green - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 12:35 PM EDT (#334454) #
Extraordinary, CBDC?

Davey Johnson. Casey Stengel.  Yogi Berra.  Billy Martin.  It is true that usually managers who win don't get fired if they get along with the General Manager and owner reasonably well.  Personally, I don't think that it was a great achievement to take the talent that Gibbons has had and bring them to the ALCS twice (Ned Yost's achievement in 2014-15 was more impressive to me, and he's a worse manager in my opinion). 

It's funny.  The players on this club had all kinds of edge to them, and could use a little less.  The management team had very little edge and could use a little more. 

Magpie - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#334455) #
I thought the point of the report card

You thought there was a point? Beyond waving my own prejudices and blind spots for all to see?

Hey, you know me. I almost always under-value defense. In my own defense, they never put defensive numbers on a bubble-gum card. Which is - honest and true - where I first made my acquaintance with All The Numbers.
uglyone - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 12:55 PM EDT (#334456) #
true 300pa isn't huge but imo it's more than just a strict bench usage.
Magpie - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 12:58 PM EDT (#334457) #
Davey Johnson. Casey Stengel. Yogi Berra. Billy Martin.

Those four guys represent two specific conditions: a) Yankees who lost the World Series (is that an organization with a sense of entitlement or what? The mind boggles!) and b) difficult men to get along with, Johnson being a notorious grump and Martin being a drunken lunatic who always blamed his problems on the world.

There's got to be more. Anyone come to mind?
Chuck - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#334458) #
Also, Joaquin Benoit asks, "What does a relief pitcher have to do to get an A around here?"

Pitch more than 24 innings?

Magpie - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 02:00 PM EDT (#334459) #
So naturally, I just went trawling through the Franchise Encyclopaedias of every franchise looking for teams who had replaced their managers after a trip to the post-season. Here's my list:

Ken Macha, A's, 2006 (lost ALCS)
Grady Little, Red Sox 2003 (lost ALCS)
Larry Dierker, Houston 2001 (lost NLDS)
Mike Hargrove, Cleveland 1999 (lost ALDS)
Dave Johnson, Cincinnati 1995 (lost NLCS)
Bob Lemon, Yankees 1982 (lost WS)
Dick Howser, Yankees 1980 (lost ALCS)
Al Dark, A's 1975 (lost ALCS)
Billy Martin, Minnesota 1969 (lost ALCS)
Yogi Berra, Yankees 1964 (lost WS)
Casey Stengel, Yankees 1960 (lost WS)

We've also seen the manager replaced midway through the season after a trip to the post-season:

Charlie Manuel, Cleveland 2002 (lost ALDS)
Bob Rodgers, Milwaukee 1982 (lost ALDS)
Bill Virdon, Houston 1982 (lost NLDS)
Jim Frey, Kansas City 1981 (lost WS)
Bob Lemon, Yankees 1979 (won WS)
Danny Ozark, Philadelphia 1979 (lost NLCS)
Billy Martin, Yankees 1978 (won WS)
Darrell Johnson, Boston 1976 (lost WS)
Bill Virdon, Pittsburgh 1973 (lost NLCS)
Billy Martin, Detroit 1973 (lost ALCS)
Jake Stahl, Boston 1913 (won WS)

And then there are managers who don't return after a dispute with management:

Art Howe, A's, 2002 (lost ALDS)
Dave Johnson, Baltimore 1997 (lost ALCS)
Buck Showalter, Yankees 1995 (lost ALDS)
Johnny Keane, St. Louis 1964 (won WS)
Charlie Dressen, Dodgers 1953 (lost WS)
Rogers Hornsby, St. Louis 1926 (won WS)

I think I got 'em all. This would be a much shorter list if there had never been a Steinbrenner. The Art Howe situation in Oakland is a little fuzzy - Howe wanted out, and Beane didn't want him around. I don't know if he was actually fired or not.
Magpie - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#334460) #
I'm just amazed that the name "Durocher" never turned up.
CeeBee - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 02:21 PM EDT (#334463) #
Billy Martin made up for that :)
PeterG - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#334465) #
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-blue-jays-should-rebuild/

Discuss.
Mike Green - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#334466) #
Discussions about the advisability of rebuilding after two pretty good seasons turn on both age of the roster and the financial side.  I have to admit that it will irritate me if both of the following occur:
- no increase to payroll
- a partial re-build aimed at 2018

It would fit with Shapiro's cautious approach, but I don't think that it will work.  The options seem to me to be either to go for it with a decent increase in payroll reflective of the additional revenue brought in the last two years, or a larger rebuild which would likely take a year or two longer. 

As for the list of managers who were fired after playoff appearances, I don't think that the list is quite complete.  Wasn't Davey Johnson also fired in Baltimore after a fight with Angelos?  There are definitely a couple of themes lurking in the list Magpie provided (thank you).  It is unusual for a reasonably well-liked manager to be fired after a winning season, let alone one where the team made the playoffs.  And, the Yankees are a special case.
rpriske - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#334468) #
This team's pitching is too good to need to rebuild.

Magpie - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#334469) #
Wasn't Davey Johnson also fired in Baltimore after a fight with Angelos?

I thought so as well, but he actually resigned. It was a fight with Angelos, with whom he was barely on speaking terms.
Mike Green - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#334471) #
In my own defense, they never put defensive numbers on a bubble-gum card. Which is - honest and true - where I first made my acquaintance with All The Numbers.

Me too.  Made my dentist rich when I was 6 what with all the bubble gum they unnecessarily put with the card. 
Magpie - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 03:14 PM EDT (#334472) #
I'm just amazed that the name "Durocher" never turned up.

And here's why. Durocher managed 24 seasons, but he only made it into the post-season three times.
ComebyDeanChance - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#334473) #
Grady Little, Red Sox 2003 (lost ALCS)

Grady was skewered near and far for leaving Pedro in and blamed for losing the ALCS. Skewered so badly that I recall Epstein saying after the game that he had no explanation. There's no s

Billy Martin was fired after his 'one's a liar and the other convicted' comments about Jackson and Martin.

These are certainly not comparable to Gibbons. I'm not a Gibbons defender, but I think it would be 'highly unusual' if extraordinary offends, to replace a guy after consecutive trips to the ALCS who wasn't being directly blamed for the loss or else where there were no aggravating personal circumstances.
Mike Green - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#334474) #
Fair enough, CBDC.  Shapiro is definitely a cautious GM at this point and it's not reasonable of me to anticipate that he would depart from the convention in this way. 
Alex Obal - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 03:25 PM EDT (#334476) #
The Blue Jays' current popularity is hard-won and precarious. I think a full rebuild would be an unnecessary risk.
Four Seamer - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#334477) #
Fair enough, CBDC.  Shapiro is definitely a cautious GM at this point and it's not reasonable of me to anticipate that he would depart from the convention in this way.    It's possible he also learned from the hue and cry that erupted last year when AA decided to depart for warmer pastures that it isn't worth the trouble with the fanbase at this point to replace a manager with another who might only add 1-2 wins tops.  On the other hand, a manager on the last year of his contract makes an excellent scapegoat if the team stumbles out of the gate. 
85bluejay - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#334479) #
I think that Shapkins did a solid job this year and have earned my trust - what the FO does will be shaped in a large measure by the budget that ownership provides and with uncertainty at the top I expect a status quo budget.I'm open to whatever direction the FO takes but if it's a rebuild, I want a full rebuild that includes moving Josh Donaldson.
rpriske - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#334480) #
If they do a full rebuild now... moving Donaldson... fan support would absolutely tank.
Parker - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#334481) #
Edwin has been almost exactly a 150wrc+ hitter for 4 years running - but this year he dropped a good 15% down to 134. I know buck and pat kept raving all year about his RBI totals but I have a hard time giving him an A after a drop like that.

Meanwhile, on a per usage basis, Barney was actually every bit as good as EE this year - both actually put up the exact same 3.5 average war per 650pa pace this year. Getting that kind of performance from a cheap bench piece for me is a clear A, while getting that performance from a middle of the order Star is a bit of a letdown - even if EE gets credit for playing twice as much.


This might be a new career high in disingenuous analysis, ugly.

Barney has been as good at Encarnacion, but you advocate spending whatever it takes to extend Encarnacion. Couldn't you just start producing statistics proving to every everyone that you'd give Darwin Barney $100M and save everyone the trouble of shaking their heads?

At least that would be funny...
Parker - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#334482) #
Sorry for the typos. Still getting used to the new phone. And laughing my ass off.
Magpie - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#334484) #
These are certainly not comparable to Gibbons.

Most of the actual firings wouldn't be. Many of them are Yankees being Yankees (Berra and Stengel) or the Whims of Ownership (Dark, Howser, Lemon. Davey Johnson, too - Marge Schott couldn't stand him.) And Billy Martin was just being Billy - I think that was the year he got into a fistfight with Dave Boswell, one of his starting pitchers. He'd pull that one again. And yes, Grady Little basically got canned for Gross Incompetence.

Which leaves Macha, Dierker, and Hargrove. I don't remember what bothered Beane about Macha. In the cases of Dierker and Hargrove, the teams kept making the post-season but never won the big prize. I guess John Hart in Cleveland and Gerry Hunsicker in Houston just wanted to try something new.

I think Gibbons is pretty safe for 2017, but no further. Management will go in one of two directions. If they decide they need to take a step back next season (say EE and Bautista both leave, and the replacements aren't inspiring), the lowering of expectations would keep him safe through 2017 (barring a total meltdown like 2004.) But the ice will be thin. And if they do go all-in on contending in 2017, Gibbons has to make the post-season at the very least or he's done. He may need to make it to the WS in that case.
Mike Green - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#334486) #
The Blue Jays' current popularity is hard-won and precarious. I think a full rebuild would be an unnecessary risk.

...which is precisely what Shapiro should be telling the suits, but he should also tell them that a partial rebuild is not likely to work in 2017 and 2018 (Donaldson is arb-eligible in 2018 and then a free agent in 2019). 

I rush to point out that you can make changes without a rebuild.  You can spread around the risk associated with a large contract for Encarnacion by acquiring two lesser players perhaps with more D and less O (one in the outfield and one first baseman).  That isn't what Cameron is talking about.  It's about sacrificing chances of winning in 2017 (and in my opinion 2018) in order to finance an extension for Donaldson.  I don't think that will go over well with the fans either. 
uglyone - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#334487) #
"This might be a new career high in disingenuous analysis, ugly."

You ever wonder if your struggle to understand basic concepts is more of your problem, not mine?
Parker - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#334488) #
You ever wonder if your struggle to understand basic concepts is more of your problem, not mine?

Nope!
Magpie - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#334489) #
Agreed. I think that with this starting rotation, you're automatically a contender. I don't even think they need to improve the offense so much as diversify it.

I just checked - including his mid-1978 removal (technically a resignation, but he was ordered to resign) - Billy Martin was fired as manager nine different times.

That's got to be the record, surely.
Parker - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#334490) #
What I mean is that of course a versatile infield defender is going to be able to produce more value per-at-bat than a slugger with no defensive value, without being a comparable hitter. Your post seemed to imply that this wasn't self-evident.

Players with no defensive value NEED to be good hitters to provide value. Nobody doesn't get that. Perhaps you could explain what other understanding of basic concepts is required for you to respond like that.
Magpie - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#334491) #
I was agreeing with Mike there!

What did they do last season? Did they put all their eggs in the David Price basket? They did not. They diversified. It's like an investor's styrategy, isn't it? Anyway, maybe look for that type of move again.
Parker - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#334492) #
Sorry Magpie, I thought I threaded my response to ugly's post. I'm 100% in agreement with your posts (pretty much all of them!)
PeterG - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#334493) #
I think that moving Donaldson is almost a certainty. That does not mean it would be just prospects in return but perhaps 2 young major league players and 2 high level prospects.
Parker - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#334494) #
Seinfeld LOVED all the Billy Martin firings. :)

Billy Martin. Stump Merrill. Billy Martin. Bob Lemon. Billy Martin...
Mike Green - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#334495) #
I don't even think they need to improve the offense so much as diversify it.

More left/right balance would be good.  A little more speed would be good.  They don't have go full-on 1987 Cardinals...
China fan - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#334496) #
"....This team's pitching is too good to need to rebuild...."

I fully agree.  The Jays have an excellent 5-man rotation under contract for a very reasonable price in 2017.  Assuming they pick up Grilli's option, which they should, they have most of an excellent bullpen under contract in 2017 too.  (Osuna, Grilli, Biagini, Tepera, Barnes etc, and they can probably sign Cecil too if they want him.)  It was a rotation and bullpen that held Cleveland to one of the worst hitting performances ever in a league championship series.  Why on earth would the Jays want to toss away the opportunity to exploit that pitching next season? Other teams would dream of having that calibre of pitching.  The Jays should take steps to improve the hitting lineup (in the outfield and 1B) and see where the pitching takes them in 2017.

With good health, there's a decent chance that Russell Martin puts up better hitting numbers in 2017, and Tulo is too good (defensively and offensively) to discard.  I don't believe either of them are automatic candidates for declines in 2017.   And the Jays don't really have any financial need to free up their salaries, assuming that Rogers doesn't just pocket the profits from all of the revenue streams of this season. 

I hate to bring up "intangibles" but I honestly do believe that Martin and Tulo bring a level of toughness and experience and leadership and defensive skill and pitcher-handling ability that truly benefits the Jays immeasurably.  I believe we actually witnessed the benefits of those factors in 2015 and 2016, even though it was difficult or impossible to measure it precisely.   I don't think it's a complete coincidence that the arrival of Martin and Tulo (and of course Donaldson) has coincided with playoff appearances in both of their seasons here.  That's the impact of the toughness and leadership and focus that they bring to the team.  Why would the Jays want to lose that, simply for financial reasons?  We're not in an era of cost-cutting and penny-pinching any more.

If the Jays want to bring in cheaper younger players, there will be room to do so in the outfield and 1B positions.  But there is no overwhelming reason to get rid of Martin and Tulo, and to do so would ignore the many benefits that they bring the team.
uglyone - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#334497) #
""Perhaps you could explain what other understanding of basic concepts is required for you to respond like that."

just a few basic misunderstandings needed for your post to make any kind of sense:

- the "factoring in expectations" I put in my post about grading players this year
- the difference between a grade for performance this year and a determination of the value of a player
- the difference between per game value and total value
- the fact that there is obviously nothing "self evident" to a defensive player being more valuable than an offensive one.

probably more basic fails in there but that'll do.
uglyone - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 04:57 PM EDT (#334498) #
""I don't even think they need to improve the offense so much as diversify it."

imo the most efficient way to upgrade the team for next year would be via corner OF defense, which was so atrocious this year it would be very easy to add a few wins of value for cheap.

versatility offensively is nice too - it made a huge difference to the team's offense this year when travis was in the lineup and healthy. his high contact skills were a nice complement to the patience/pop of the rest of the lineup.
Parker - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#334500) #
just a few basic misunderstandings needed for your post to make any kind of sense:

- the "factoring in expectations" I put in my post about grading players this year
- the difference between a grade for performance this year and a determination of the value of a player
- the difference between per game value and total value
- the fact that there is obviously nothing "self evident" to a defensive player being more valuable than an offensive one.


By clearly ignoring Magpie's explicitly-stated criteria, your first three points have been refuted before you tried to argue them. Nobody other than you actually cares a whit about what a player could have done if he'd gotten a full season worth of at-bats when he didn't actually do it, especially since better players on the 25-man contributed far greater value per-AB at those same defensive positions. Your determination of a player's value is as subjective as your mom's basement allows you to make it, as my previous sentence explained. Your third point reinforces your ignorance in this matter. You said absolutely nothing about your fourth point in that post.

probably more basic fails in there but that'll do.

No matter how pleased you are with yourself, I'd still be interested in all the other basic fails you didn't bother to mention.
jerjapan - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 05:30 PM EDT (#334502) #
I agree with Jeff Sullivan over Cameron on this one:  http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/against-the-idea-of-the-blue-jays-rebuilding/

In terms of retooling, I would love to see this team with a deeper bench so we can max out platoon scenarios - we could cover roster holes on the cheap that way.  Why not sign a relief ace?  FA relief ace, Osuna, Grilli, Biagini, Cecil (who I could see back on a reasonable deal) and the kids from the Buffalo shuttle - with two elite relievers, we could run with a 6 man pen at times.   Chapman, Jensen and Melancon are all FA closers.

We could sign a Steve Pearce / Rajai Davis type to platoon with Carrera in LF, and give Pompey some serious run in right.  Bring back EE.  There are plenty of solid veteran catchers who might be willing to accept a large backup role on a winner like the Jays.   I think we've got the money for this type of retooling, although it would require a spike in the budget.  If it doesn't work, flip Estrada / Liriano and others at the deadline and try again in 2018 when the kids from the farm start arriving in numbers.

Since Zeke Carrera has been deemed a dollar-store pocket knife, I'd love to see a Tony Phillips / Ben Zobrist swiss army knife type who could play multiple positions and add serious depth to the bench, but I just don't see one of those players on FA lists or in the high minors.  Am I missing anyone?  Perhaps a Japanese/Korean player?  I feel like we've sat out of the Asian market far too long, but I'm not really sure who is out there this year.

Parker - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 05:38 PM EDT (#334503) #
We'd all love a deeper bench but Gibbons loves his eight-man bullpen, which leaves only a backup catcher, whichever of Upton/Carrera isn't starting, and one other guy. I'd like to see what Pompey can do, but Gibbons only seems confident using him as a pinch-runner, and with that short a bench, it's hard to justify that kind of specialist. If the Jays signed someone who could do more than just 1B/DH then Smoak could ride the bench as a PH, I suppose.

Maybe if Gibbons is worried about his job he'd be open to more flexibility on the bench while sacrificing a bullpen arm, but I dunno.
uglyone - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#334504) #
"By clearly ignoring Magpie's explicitly-stated criteria, your first three points have been refuted before you tried to argue them"

Magpie has his criteria. I daresay even he wouldn't claim they were universal, nor would he be interested in having every response on this thread follow his criteria only. In fact I'm not sure i've ever seen someone post on a season player grades thread on any forum on the interwebs who assumes there is only one criteria worth looking, so there's yet another basic misunderstanding on your part. And for another basic misunderstanding - you claim you and nobody else but me cares about rate stats, yet you care very much about batting average and the like. just basic misunderstanding after basic misunderstanding with you.

Your basic misunderstandings are clear and still stand, as is usually the case. But I enjoy that you keep goong out of your way to do this to yourself.
Kasi - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 06:30 PM EDT (#334506) #
I would caution anyone to think that the rotation/relievers next year will casually repeat their performances from this year. Without even getting into injury concerns all the starting pitchers minus Sanchez are fairly volatile. We've seen this with Stroman and Liriano. How good Estrada is is balanced on a very fine edge between his high fly ball rate and keeping those fly balls in the park. And as for Happ he had some pretty good luck this year and peripherals in general suggest he'll return to being a 3/4 guy next year. Which is fine but the Jays are not going to have a rotation near a half run in front of every team in the AL in ERA with almost no injury issues.

As for the position players my concern is the group as a whole is just not good enough. Donaldson is great for sure, but the bats after that are pretty poor. When Travis has the most similar scores for plate discipline to Pillar you know that's an issue. EE or Jose would obviously help the offense not go down as fast but they have their own issues. I feel fairly confident the Jays WRC as a team next year will be sub 100. Donaldson might be their only +120 WRC player.
scottt - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#334508) #
Cameron clearly does not understand the Blue Jays market. The idea of saving money one year to invest the next is probably a necessity for small market teams, but Rogers operates quarter to quarter and saving money one year to spend the next is the last thing they want. After losing EE and JB, trade away the other recognizable stars and  the losses at the gates will probably exceed the savings.

The time to trade a veteran is when you have young players ready to replace them. Besides, all the trades are happening mid-year now because there's more buyers than sellers.

Also, next year might be a great year for free agency, but that holds true for all 30 teams. I can't imagine the Blue Jays outbidding, on not one, but on 4 or 5 star players to compete in 2018. That's not really what the fans want anyway. They established stars that they already know.

We're talking Trump territory here.

Chuck - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#334509) #
We could sign a Steve Pearce / Rajai Davis type to platoon with Carrera in LF

If Carerra profiled as a Matt Joyce-type hitter, with respect to his platoon splits, that would be something to consider. But people are probably sick of me saying this about him: he cannot hit RHP! His career splits are 711/649 (824/626 this year). The fact that he is a LHB means nothing. He accrues no advantage from his lefthandedness. It's only that he's a good bunter that his numbers against RHP are even as "good" as they are.

Alex Obal - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 06:48 PM EDT (#334510) #
Re the full and partial rebuilds, I think they can in theory field a team with no holdovers from 2016 other than Martin and Sanchez and remain popular, as long as the new team doesn't suck on paper. My impression is that people have braced themselves for upheaval, but not suckage. Will a dreary 46-52 Jays team really sell out the Dome against Minnesota on a weekend in July? I mean, nobody knows for sure until we find out, but my guess is nnnnnoooooo. Need a couple more years to really make the ballpark a habit. The fans are with you, Rogers, but you are not the Cubs yet.

Rogers needs to invest in the team and do it now. The social contract requires them to. It'll look terrible if they don't. The problem is that the most visible and immediate way to invest is the free agent market, which is mostly a sucker bet. Mostly. Unless you're the only 1 of 30 GMs to see the Happotheosis coming like we all did.

This winter is wide open. I hope Shapiro and Atkins are open minded about their options. I think I'm more optimistic than Mike that they will be.
jerjapan - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 06:52 PM EDT (#334511) #
Chuck, clearly I'm not sick of you saying that Carerra's splits don't work in a traditional platoon since I didn't actually realize that till I read your post!   but the point still stands IMO, despite my error - a platoon or two may be a more cost-effective solution than looking for a full-time player in a poor FA class. 

Worked for Cleveland!
Chuck - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 07:09 PM EDT (#334513) #
Worked for Cleveland!

Because Naquin and Chisenhall can hit RHP. I have no objections to platoons, unless the LHB can't actually hit RHP. Then you're just punting 400 AB.

Parker - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 07:37 PM EDT (#334514) #
Magpie has his criteria. I daresay even he wouldn't claim they were universal, nor would he be interested in having every response on this thread follow his criteria only. In fact I'm not sure i've ever seen someone post on a season player grades thread on any forum on the interwebs who assumes there is only one criteria worth looking, so there's yet another basic misunderstanding on your part. And for another basic misunderstanding - you claim you and nobody else but me cares about rate stats, yet you care very much about batting average and the like. just basic misunderstanding after basic misunderstanding with you.

Magpie is a very respected poster here, and I don't think you have any business even bringing him into the conversation in that regard. I don't care about rate stats any more than any other intelligent poster, because they're only meaningful within proper context. Since you either consistently choose to ignore context or you actually somehow don't even understand its significance, I think we're about done here. The second rule of the internet is to not feed the trolls, and I think what saddens me the most about the time I've spent responding to you is that you don't even seem to be intelligent enough to realize that you're a troll. I will not bother responding to your posts anymore.

Best of luck with whatever it is that you do.
Magpie - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 07:39 PM EDT (#334515) #
Magpie has his criteria.

I haz criteria? You flatter me. I pull all this stuff of out of my hindparts, and my reasons and justifications shift from minute to minute...

Diversifying the offense. Some of this would be obvious - more LH presence in the lineup, more speed. But what I'm really thinking of is some diversity in approach. I just suspect it has to be easier to pitch to a lineup where everybody's trying to do the same thing - work the count and blast away, from the RH batter's box. A pitcher can take a one-size-fits-all approach. I don't think the Jays set out to build that type of lineup, but it's what they have. The closest thing they have to a contact hitter is Pillar, and even he would have fanned 100 times if he hadn't hit the DL for a couple of weeks.

I may be showing my age here. Back in the day, when rock stars were rock stars, a team might have one or two guys who cleared 100 Ks. The 1985 Jays had one (Barfield) and those guys scored some runs. The 2016 Jays had seven - and it was only DL time that kept Travis and Pillar from joining them. My head exploded, and the Jays didn't even lead the league in batter K's.

Well, game done changed. I'm pretty sure I've complained about it before, in the universal fashion of old men remembering the Way Things Were. In 1985, you were likely to see 10.7 strikeouts (total, both teams) if you watched a ball game. This past year, you would have seen 16.1, which is a pretty hefty increase. We all know why - all the hitters grip the bat down the end and swing for the fences, every game a hitter usuallly sees at least three different pitchers, and almost everyone coming out of the pen throws 95. I maintain it's not a good thing for the game on purely aesthetic grounds. Strikeouts can be immensely exciting, but too many of them is just boring.
Mike Green - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#334517) #
In the "did you know" department.  Devon Travis faced a LHP 100 times this year.  He did not walk once and struck out 20 times.  He has had trouble with LHPs in his career both in the majors and minors.
SK in NJ - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 08:20 PM EDT (#334518) #
Improving the defense in the OF corners will definitely have a positive impact next season. Bautista and Saunders were two DH's playing the OF. Getting more range and athleticism out there will make a quantifiable difference.

I'm glad someone mentioned Carrera's splits. He can't hit RHP. The only difference between his usual self and his 2016 performance was that his defense actually graded out positively this season. Otherwise, he was essentially the same old replacement level player he's always been except with a hot streak to end the season. I hope the FO chooses between him and Upton (preferably Upton since he's a better overall player) rather than keeping both on board.

I think Pearce would be a good target. He's versatile, underrated, and can hit LHP while holding his own against RHP. From a value standpoint, he would be a good free agent to target. I'm sure there will be other suitors though.
uglyone - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 08:23 PM EDT (#334519) #
""
Magpie is a very respected poster here, and I don't think you have any business even bringing him into the conversation in that regard. I don't care about rate stats any more than any other intelligent poster, because they're only meaningful within proper context. Since you either consistently choose to ignore context or you actually somehow don't even understand its significance, I think we're about done here. The second rule of the internet is to not feed the trolls, and I think what saddens me the most about the time I've spent responding to you is that you don't even seem to be intelligent enough to realize that you're a troll. I will not bother responding to your posts anymore.

Best of luck with whatever it is that you do."



I mean you know you are the one who follows me around attacking ME, not vice versa, right? I've never attacked you - in fact I think I've bent over backwards to treat your attacks with good humour.

All I did was contribute my two cents to the grade thread and then responded to a question about my grades from Magpie. That's it. And then you came flying in with yet another one of your ignorant unhinged personal attacks. And yet not only do you think I'm the troll, but you think I'm the one too stupid to realize that I'm a troll. But that's you. in both regards. This is all getting very weird.

and you most certainly like rate stats, you just don't seem to know it. You look at ERA, not total earned runs. You look at batting average, not total hits. Rate stats have value in their own right, without context - and as all here are relatively informed fans we are all pretty aware of the context of usage type and sample size that serves as a caveat in these comps. You choose to believe that I use these rate stats out of context, but that's only because you continually fail to grasp basic logic.
scottt - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 08:25 PM EDT (#334520) #
Re the full and partial rebuilds, I think they can in theory field a team with no holdovers from 2016 other than Martin and Sanchez and remain popular, as long as the new team doesn't suck on paper. My impression is that people have braced themselves for upheaval, but not suckage. Will a dreary 46-52 Jays team really sell out the Dome against Minnesota on a weekend in July? I mean, nobody knows for sure until we find out, but my guess is nnnnnoooooo. Need a couple more years to really make the ballpark a habit. The fans are with you, Rogers, but you are not the Cubs yet.

With people flying off the east cost and the west to catch a game in Toronto like this year? No way.

Everybody can sell off the opener and weekend games. To sell off a Wednesday afternoon game, you need a competitive team.
uglyone - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#334522) #
Brunt insisting today that the Jays will be upping payroll, and I've heard the same myself from someone I think would know (but not something i'd wager too much on).

So let's try a different tack - Let's just assume that the Jays WILL SPEND $40m this offseason on top of the ~$115m committed already - who exactly should they spend it on?
vw_fan17 - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 10:49 PM EDT (#334525) #
So let's try a different tack - Let's just assume that the Jays WILL SPEND $40m this offseason on top of the ~$115m committed already - who exactly should they spend it on?

Sounds like the Tigers are about to hold a fire sale, according to MLBTR..
DH - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 11:00 PM EDT (#334526) #
$40 million burning a hole in your pocket?

How about ...

1. $20m to get Edwin back to play 1B
2. $10m to get Boone Logan in the pen (Travis Wood)
3. $10m to have Ian Desmond in RF (Carlos Gomez)

And if you've earned some interest on your investments,

4. Eric Thames in LF/DH, Benoit back in the pen.
John Northey - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 11:32 PM EDT (#334527) #
As to trades, lets start with a few assumptions
1) None of the current free agents are re-signed. Seems a safe assumption as someone thinking they need 'veteran leadership' to get over the top along with power will chase Bautista and we all know Boston will open the vault for Encarnacion. No idea what happens with Saunders, might be a reasonably cheap resign. Cecil lands under that too. Dickey/Thole are gone.

2) They will get a 6th starter/long reliever - no idea who but someone will be signed for this role

3) Tellez & Pompey are pure 'if we can't do better this winter' choices as are Smoak, Upton, and Carrera. All are good backups but none should be the #1 choice at a position going into spring. I could see a mix of them in LF but not more than one position.

4) There is at least $25 million available to spend as projected payrolls put the Jays around $125 mil for 2016 right now. I could see $50 being made available for the right situation. Shapkins suggested (forget which of them) that money is not an issue right now.


So who do the Jays chase? Ideally they grab someone like Yoenis Cespedes and trade for Joey Votto but that ain't gonna happen unless payroll is ready to go nuts. I see Ryan Braun as a reasonable target as the Brewers are in full rebuild mode and he has 4 more years plus a buyout left worth about $80 mil which nowadays seems reasonable for an aging corner outfielder who had a 136 OPS+ last year and 131 the year before, in fact has been below 130 only once in his career (2014) and was a 4.4 bWAR guy last year. He'd fit in nicely in either LF or RF with some DH time.

To help think through the value of hitters last year in all of the major leagues (note: if a guy played for 2+ teams the data was merged)...

8+ fWAR: 2 guys: Trout & Bryant
5-7.9 fWAR: 21 guys including Donaldson and Joey Votto
3-4.9 fWAR: 48 guys including Encarancion, Pillar
2's: 59 guys including Tulo, Travis, Chris Davis of the O's (got a big FA contract last winter)
1's: 84 guys including Martin, Barney, Bautista, Saunders, Upton, Valencia, Alex Gordon (another big FA deal) and Joe Mauer.
0's: 530 guys including Carerra, Pompey, most Jay pitchers as hitters, ex Jay Adeiny Hechavarria, Jay Bruce, Albert Pujols, Victor Martinez - a few 'oh crap' FA deals there
sub 0: 311 guys: Junior Lake, Smoak, Dominguez, Colabello, Thole, Ceciliani, Goins (worst Jay at -1.0). Alexei Ramirez gets the 'worst player in baseball' award for a -2.4 fWAR season.

Pitchers are...
8+: no one
5-7.9: 9 guys: led by Noah Syndergaard (sigh) tied with Clayton Kershaw.
3-4.9: 33 guys: Sanchez, Stroman, Happ, Estrada (nice, the big 4 all there), David Price also in that group
2's: 49 guys: no Jays but ex-Jay Anthony DeSclafani makes it as do giant contracts that many would've like the Jays to take on Yu Darvish, Zack Greinke plus big deal CC Sabathia.
1's: 74 guys: Osuna, Dickey, Biagini plus a few ex-Jays like Sam Dyson, Daniel Norris
0's: 366 guys: pretty much everyone else who didn't suck
sub 0: 211 guys: worst was Chris Young for the Royals at -1.2

Interesting to see how grouped things are. 5+ WAR guys are few and far between with 23 hitters and 9 pitchers so 1 per team plus 2 extras. 3's and 4's more common with 81 so 2.7 per team (Jays had EE, Pillar, Sanchez, Stroman, Happ, Estrada - this is where the Jays shine). 2's are important (108 in majors or 3.6 per team) and the Jays had Tulo, Travis and that was it. Guess our 2's were promoted to 3's with Osuna just shy at 1.8

Clearly for 2016 the Jays need to find at least one 3+ to replace EE and better than 1 fWAR level for Bautista, Dickey, Saunders ideally guys who can perform at 3+ level.
Petey Baseball - Thursday, October 20 2016 @ 11:56 PM EDT (#334528) #
It is really crazy how off-seasons evolve, and how one team's potential fire sale could affect several others. The Jays-Marlins blockbuster in Nov 2012 doesn't happen without the wildcard that is Jeffrey Loria. It appears that Mike Illitch will no longer have the last word on baseball matters in Detroit.

If the Tigers pick up some money, I'd love to have Victor Martinez DH'ing for the next two years with Eddie at first.
Petey Baseball - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 03:12 AM EDT (#334529) #
VMart doesn't make them younger, but he still appears durable (played 154 games last year with the Tigers), and had a solid .826 OPS playing at Comerica. He's also a switch hitter, and is virtually the same guy from both sides. With Tulo, Martin, Travis, and Donaldson forming the core, Martinez would balance the lineup a bit and recovers a lot of the offense lost with Bautista's departure.

There's the obvious Cleveland connection with Shapiro as well.

scottt - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 07:59 AM EDT (#334530) #
If Estrada has an other good year, he's an easy QO (We should know the day after the Wordl Series what the new agreement actually is and there is still such a thing). He's the kind of guy GMs are worried about offering  a long term deal, so that could work out well for Toronto.

Btw, Estrada was telling Biagini "We'll do it again next year" after the game. I don't see how he could be traded to save money without a huge backlash. Only in some weird parallel universe. 

Mike Green - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 08:56 AM EDT (#334531) #
Here is Sportrac's calculation of 2016 payrolls.  2015 is here.  And here is a fascinating article on the luxury tax limit and players' declining share of MLB revenues.  38% is a terrible number.  Millionaires of the baseball world unite!
Glevin - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#334532) #
The Tigers need to have a fire sale. They made the mistake that some on here want to make the Jays to make which is invest heavily in older older players and using free agency and prospects to keep competing. It's a terrrrible model and I am happy that the Iays will not go in that direction. I have no interest in Victor Martinez. His WAR in the past two years has been 0 and cost $32m over that period.

The two fangraphs articles on the Jays are very interesting. I like Sullivan's point that trading Tulo and Martin wouldn't get you much back so they don't help a rebuild enough to trade, neither writer see pa Encarnnacion or Bautista coming back which I agree is likely. I see the Jays making some smaller moves improving the defence and bullpen and getting a lesser DH and seeing where the team is in July. If they are in it, they can go out and get some help, if they aren't, a full rebuild isn't out of the question.
Mike Green - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 10:11 AM EDT (#334533) #
The free agent who I like is Josh Reddick.  I have no idea what the financial deal with him would be, but what I like about him as a player is the broad range of skills.  He's knocked his swinging strike rate down to an excellent 6% in the last couple of years.  He's got some power, he is a good fielder and he steals bases occasionally but effectively.  His top BBRef comp is Paul O'Neill and I think that it's a good comp.   I think that he'd do well in the RC (his career line here is .333/.380/.773 in 71 PAs). 

Chuck - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 10:11 AM EDT (#334534) #
$10m to get Boone Logan

I did a spit take on this one.

Chuck - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 10:13 AM EDT (#334535) #
I maintain it's not a good thing for the game on purely aesthetic grounds. Strikeouts can be immensely exciting, but too many of them is just boring.

I hear you grandpa. I'm on the same page. Remember when it used to be about the music?

Chuck - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 10:20 AM EDT (#334536) #
The free agent who I like is Josh Reddick.

Agreed. He'd be a nice platoon partner for Upton.

Vulg - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 10:20 AM EDT (#334537) #
The Tigers need to have a fire sale. They made the mistake that some on here want to make the Jays to make which is invest heavily in older older players and using free agency and prospects to keep competing. It's a terrrrible model and I am happy that the Iays will not go in that direction. I have no interest in Victor Martinez. His WAR in the past two years has been 0 and cost $32m over that period.

There's a big difference between wanting the team to "spend on older players" and simply wanting the team to do what MLSE does for their NBA and NHL franchises, which is spend up to the salary tax threshold. I think most would agree that Happ and Estrada were wise investments. I think it's too general to shut off consideration of FAs who are 30ish; as with all business decisions, it's more about allocating your resources wisely vs. a wasteful fashion. My argument is just that the FOs sandbox should have been larger (especially after seeing how effectively they deployed their monies in the end).

Personally, I was hopeful the Jays would be in on Maeda (probably good) and Zimmerman (probably not so smart!) during last offseason, and maybe one of those $5M bullpen arms that were changing teams. This would have placed them roughly in the top 8 for payroll rather than 14th, which is where they started the season (they moved up to 11th at the deadline).

The great thing about MLB from a risk mitigation perspective is that you don't have salary-matching (NBA) or a hard cap (NHL) constraining player movement. If a team makes a mistake in FA, you can back out of it easier.

From a grades perspective, I might have Estrada and Pillar (C+) and Estrada (B) a touch higher, but it's hard to argue with the overall rankings and comments. I would actually give Team Shapkins a B+ instead of a B-, as I was quite impressed with their value moves and working with the budget they had. I would give Rogers Media a D rather than a C, basically for letting payroll slip out of the top 10 during a year where the team was poised to make a deep run.
Paul D - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#334538) #
I see no reason to make any rebuild type trades this offseason. Even if you think that's the right play, why not work on a rebuild, and then trade players at the deadline if the rebuild doesn't work out?
Mike Green - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#334539) #
I agree that there is a certain sameness that is boring.  Bill James levied the same criticism about the baseball of the early 50s.  In that case, it was the walks that dominated the era.  Too many of them are boring too. 

The small game- the confrontation between batter and pitcher- has interest, but if it dominates baseball day after day, something is lost.  Why have all those fielders out there, if their main job is to watch the two principals fight it out to decide which of the three true outcomes will occur?
uglyone - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#334540) #
thanks for the sportrac link, Mike.

That imo exposes the key flaw in Cameron's argument - he thought this year's payroll was around $140, when in fact it was near $160. That changes his entire calculus as to ho many wins we should be able to buy this offseason, even just by maintain payroll, never mind the likly raising of it.
uglyone - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#334541) #
And I still think doubling down on our pitching+defense combo is the smartest way to gain value this offseason, especially in the corner OF spots.

Here's fangraphs final updated Depth Chart combo projections for our offense, btw - these will change before next season but it's still a useful barometer imo:

3B Donaldson 140wrc+
DH
1B
SS Tulowitzki 106
2B Travis 104
C Martin 100
CF Pillar 87
RF Upton 83
LF Pompey 79

UT Smoak 93
OF Carrera 78
IF Goins 58
C Thole 58

It's a real luxury to have a good defensive middle infield and catcher that all project to be average to above bats. And there's only a handful of players who will project higher than Donaldson''s 140.

1B/DH should be the easiest place to find plus offense from. Get a couple good bats there and this offense should be good again no matter what the OF situation is. And this doesn't even have to be the 140-150wrc we used to get from EE and Joey - even a couple 120 bats there makes us a solid offense again.

And even if we just stick with those 4 OF - while their lack of offense will most likely prevent us from being an elite offensive team their defense and speed should provide plenty of value to make up for it.

Really that would be arguably the best defense in baseball here.

and of course an upgrade on goins and thole would be a good idea.
SK in NJ - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 11:21 AM EDT (#334542) #
Reddick would be a good fit, especially since he won't be a qualified free agent so the Jays wouldn't lose a pick for signing him, but it depends on his asking price. With the down free agent market, he will be highly sought after and likely pretty expensive. I recall reading that the Jays were apparently "scouting" him at the deadline when they were looking at a potential Hill/Reddick trade, so there will probably be interest there. Again, it will come down to cost and term.
AWeb - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#334543) #
Offseason planning - find an expensive veteran another team is willing to part with (Votto would be the dream, I think he's got years left of great hitting) or resign Encarnacion to play first. I can't help but think Smoak would get increasingly worse the more teams scouted him, and a 1B platoon is unworkable with an 8 man pen. Anyway, the Jays should follow the 2002-2012 Yankees plan - old good players are still good - and only look at selloffs and rebuilds in midseason if things are going poorly. The Yankees were "too old" for basically an entire decade, and they kept winning. This strategy is tied heavily to a large payroll of course. And once you develop a few position players, they bump out the old guy placeholders.

Pitching - all set. Weird right? I mean, the pitching next year will almost certainly be worse than this year, where everyone was relatively healthy and performed stunningly well. Sure, a bullpen arm or two, but Biagini wasn't exactly on the radar last year, those arms come from literally anywhere. Osuna might get stretched out, I guess? Spend a year or two using him as a bullpen ace type to up his innings and see if he can handle it?

Thole is gone, I assume. Someone in a MLB outfield should be able to hit, but I don't see who. Someone like Pillar, with a relatively low K%, could have "one of those years" where he hits .310 (which would make him an MVP candidate if his defense holds), but certainly can't be planned for from this group of solidly below average hitters.

I don't think a lot analysts out there (and on here) have made the mental adjustment to just how good the pitching/defense was for the Jays. Fewest runs in the league allowed, highest defensive efficiency. You don't rebuild the team who gives up the fewest runs in the league, you figure out how make it work.
rpriske - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 12:39 PM EDT (#334544) #
" I mean, the pitching next year will almost certainly be worse than this year,"

I disagree with this.

Estrada and Happ have both pushed aside the 'small sample size' concerns about their upswings, but even if they DO regress somewhat, Sanchez appears to only be getting better, Stroman is more likely to 'regress' upwards than downwards after an off year, and Liriano seems to be a clear upgrade over 2016 Dickey.

The rotation looks like it could be really great.
Kasi - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#334545) #
We're not going to be a half run in front of the second team in the AL. We're likely not going to have basically one DL stint (Estrada this year) for the entire rotation all year. Sure we lose Dickey but we had a lot of positive luck this year. I'm sure if you go back a year ago you'd have seen posts talking about how awesome our offense would continue to be next year. And yet our offense wasn't awesome, just good. You can't just assume players won't decline, young players will get better and that injuries won't happen.
Chuck - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#334546) #
I disagree with this.

People also disagreed a year ago about the offense regressing. I'd say that in general, if you lead the league in something big (like RF or RA), a regression is likely. It doesn't have to be disastrous, but the disproportionate amount of good luck that contributed to your success will likely be doled out more normally moving forward.

Kasi - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#334547) #
Exactly. If you go by ERA from this year we have this.

1. Toronto - 3.64
2. Cleveland - 4.08

That's not happening. Now I'm not saying that starting pitching won't be a strength here. It will continue to be good I think because there are good arms and some decent depth. But strength != not decline. Our SP is almost certain to decline.
uglyone - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 02:39 PM EDT (#334548) #
Fangraphs Depth Chart Updated Rest of Season projection:

Stroman 3.71era
Sanchez 3.74
Estrada 3.99
Liriano 3.99
Happ 4.09

Osuna 2.97
Grilli 3.56
Loup 3.56
Biagini 3.74
Tepera 3.89

projections like the Jays for a comfortably below 4 era.
Kasi - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#334549) #
But even those numbers don't come out to a 3.64 ERA for starters. That's more like 3.9 or so.
Chuck - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 02:46 PM EDT (#334550) #
projections like the Jays for a comfortably below 4 era.

Sure, predicated on good health. The Jays only gave 2 starts to Plan B pitchers in 2016. They were terrifically lucky in the health department.

Mike Green - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#334551) #
People also disagreed a year ago about the offense regressing. I'd say that in general, if you lead the league in something big (like RF or RA), a regression is likely. It doesn't have to be disastrous, but the disproportionate amount of good luck that contributed to your success will likely be doled out more normally moving forward.

Only a few people thought that the offence would not regress at all, Chuck.  The club had sequencing success in 2015 that was not likely to be repeatable.  Most people felt that the offence would regress, but almost nobody expected the degree of regression (and I certainly count myself in that camp).  It was surprising in light of the overall increase in offence in the league. 

You are absolutely right that the pitchers were uncommonly healthy in 2016., and it is not reasonable to project that to happen again.   Marking Liriano down for an ERA of 4.09 and 200 innings is not a good idea, given that he hasn't pitched since the concussion (what is now called mild traumatic brain injury in the biz).  Further Pillar, Donaldson and Tulo are at an age where a small decline in defensive ability is to be expected.   There are some upsides in the run prevention department though:
- Stroman and Sanchez are young and could get better
- the relief behind Osuna was not particularly good and it should be possible to get reinforcements at a reasonable cost
- Martin had the worst season by far of his career throwing out baserunners due to the neck injury; perhaps it will be better in 2017 after some off-season treatment

How about putting it this way?  The Blue Jays are in an enviable position with their pitching staff.  They have 4 names to write in the first 4 spots in the rotation and one decent possible option for the #5 spot, and an ace reliever and some possibilities for higher leverage work on hand.  The defence is likely to be at least good.  On the other hand, they do have some significant depth needs in the staff.
Chuck - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#334552) #
Only a few people thought that the offence would not regress at all, Chuck.

Fair enough. But the term "elite offense" was still used pretty liberally in 2016.

Mike Green - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#334553) #
Yep.  It was a funny season.  April was a nightmare, but from mid-May until the end of August, the offence looked like a reasonable facsimile of the 2015 offence but without the sequencing.  And then they ran out of gas.  As of September 1, you could easily and reasonably believe that the Jays had one of the best offences in the league. 

Personally, I had been hoping at the outset of the season that Pompey would find his way onto the big club and add some much needed youth at the end (other clubs did benefit from these kinds of youthful talent injections).  It didn't work out that way. 

Parker - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#334554) #
Dalton Wheat. He shows up to work!
vw_fan17 - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 05:47 PM EDT (#334556) #
I pretty much (at a high level) agree with Lott's article. Not saying I couldn't find bits to quibble with if I looked. But, overall, IMHO, he does a decent job summing up the state of the franchise - I'm sure you could easily find a less correct article somewhere..

The one thing I disagree with is bit at the end: that the fans will expect a playoff contender, year-after-year. I understand his point. I think what _I_ want as a fan, is for Rogers to re-invest in the team. Do something. Even if it's stuff similar to what they did with Liriano: take on "dead" salary to get more prospects, or, to also get desirable players. To take an example from the past: take Ryan Howard off the Phillies' hands to get Chase Utley as well, and just DFA Howard, or something.. Not sure if there's a deal like that to be made with Detroit?

In other words, don't just let the money sit, unless it's to invest it for later. And you would have a VERY hard time convincing me that it will actually be saved for later. Hire better coaches. Be in on any decent player posted from Japan, etc.. Buy "equalization" credits from teams to trade later (can we do this?).

I guess underlying all this is the new CBA, right? That's released right after the WS is over? Any leaks yet as to major changes?

scottt - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#334557) #
Rogers as a corporation doesn't save money for later. Everything has a budget and those budgets don't go up because they were down the previous year. They go up when it improves the bottom line.  If they made more money from the team in last 2 years than in the previous 10 than the budget needs to go up. If they made less, than it needs to go down. That's how it works.

It seems unlikely that any changes would have an impact this year.
There might be some changes in draft, but I'd be surprised if anything happens before that.

scottt - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#334558) #
Here's a long article from late August which concludes with the intrigue of returning Biagini to the rotation.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2016/8/28/12619456/joe-biagini-toronto-blue-jays-best-rule-5-pick

scottt - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 06:32 PM EDT (#334559) #
1. Toronto - 3.64
2. Cleveland - 4.08

The key there is that Trevor Bauer and Josh Tomlin have career ERA of 4.42 and 4.58.

The Jays are better than that.

Health is a risk for every pitcher. Some are obviously more prone to injury than other.
On the Jays, only Osuna is a red flag for me.

Rotation insurance is exactly why they should send Biagini to Buffalo and find out if he's a 5M Reliever (Miller makes 9M) or a substitute for Liriano's 13.6M.

One thing I like is that every Jays starter is different and Biagini's over the top delivery is also unique.
John Northey - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#334560) #
I think stretching out Biagini in spring makes a ton of sense and seeing if there is something there. Try to find 5 relievers to add to Grilli and Osuna. Osuna being limited to closing is OK as the leverage is high but Biagini limited to middle relief seems a waste unless the team is limited in that area in a contending year. I'd do it as a '6th starter' option with a plan to call him up in August regardless to do relief if not needed in the rotation by then. I'd try to resign Cecil, give Barnes a full shot in spring to make the team, sign a few quality AAAA guys and maybe see if there are any other good rule 5 guys out there. Give Benoit a reasonable offer but don't go nuts with him (he is 38 so he'll want a 2-3 year deal to finish his career with - he will put a premium on being with a contender as he has no WS ring).

Watch out for AA starters who are young. Conner Greene (21, 4.72 ERA in AA), Shane Dawson (22, 4.22 ERA in AA), Jeremy Gabryszwski (23, 5.23 ERA in AA) - none look great on the surface but are young for AA so they could suddenly develop as others have in the past.
Ishai - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 07:26 PM EDT (#334561) #
I am going to express an opinion that is not adequately grounded in fact, and is probably indefensible, but I think might be in the best long term interests of the franchise: move Stroman to the bullpen.

He is heavily reliant on one pitch with a lot of movement (his sinker), and he really only has one game plan (pound the bottom of the strike zone). He struggles to keep hitters off balance multiple times through the order. He is great at getting ground balls, and could be a good guy to bring in when you need a high leverage double play. The way he uses intensity and adrenaline to pitch play well as a reliever.

I understand that a starter is throwing more innings, and therefore has a larger potential impact. But I highly doubt Stroman is going to improve as a starter, and I personally would not be surprised if he continue to slide. I realize I don't have any sound basis for this, so I certainly can't defend it. But I thought I'd throw it out there and see if anyone was thinking along the same lines.
Richard S.S. - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#334562) #
If you've caught John Gibbons' Jeff Blair appearance http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/jeff-blair-show/ or read the Mike Johnson article http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/john-gibbons-blue-jays-lineup-needs-better-balance-speed/ several things are readily apparent.
1) The Jays were much too easy to pitch to.
2) The Jays were too slow.
3) The Bullpen needs work.

First Base can and should get filled by a quality LHB, but finding one with speed might not be possible. Right Field can and should get filled by a quality LHB with speed. Left Field should be filled by a quality LHB with speed. D.H. can and should get filled by a quality LHB, but finding one with speed might not be possible.

Acquiring one or more quality LHBs with speed may not be possible via Free Agency. It's more likely a trade is necessary and pricey.
Parker - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#334563) #
Quality left-handed analysis with speed as always, Richard.

Does anyone actually listen to either Blair or Gibbons?
Richard S.S. - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 09:44 PM EDT (#334564) #
Working 12-hour shifts, no internet available, no wifi available, current music sucks, Podcasts use zero data, so yeah, I listen.
Jdog - Friday, October 21 2016 @ 10:32 PM EDT (#334565) #
Did Justin Smoak really get a 2 year contract extension midseason?. Why on earth would they need to give him a 2 year extension. I can't get over that decision, it makes no sense.
China fan - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 07:08 AM EDT (#334566) #
"....You can't just assume players won't decline, young players will get better and that injuries won't happen..."

I agree that the pitching is likely to regress, but I also think it's likely to remain a big strength for the team.  Those two statements aren't incompatible.  The regression could be relatively small, or it could be primarily a result of having less luck on the health front.  And it's certainly possible that some pitchers could improve too.

In any event, it's imbalanced to worry about the pitchers regressing without simultaneously noting that some of the hitters could improve, and the Jays could be more fortunate with better health among the hitters.  We often forget about the number of Jays hitters who were hobbled or impacted by some form of health problem in 2016:  especially Travis, Martin, Bautista, Donaldson, Saunders, and even Tulo to some extent.  I'm not talking only about DL stints, but also the nagging and lingering injuries that affected a lot of them.  Of course every team has injuries, but my impression is that the Jays were worse-affected by those lingering injury issues than many other teams.  They could easily have better luck on that front in 2016.  That factor, alone, could very conceivably lead to an improvement in their offense in 2017 (assuming that the departing free agents are reasonably replaced).  It's simplistic to assume that "age" will lead to "inevitable decline" in every veteran.  Lots of veterans have bounce-back seasons in their 30s, and we can't assume that will never happen among the Jays.

Of course the front office will have to be smart in its off-season moves, and a lot will depend on whom they're able to acquire.  But I think the worry about pitching regression is a little over-blown, and it needs to be balanced with the possibility of improvement from some of the hitters.
scottt - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 07:10 AM EDT (#334567) #
Smoak is cheap. It's pretty simple.
scottt - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 07:20 AM EDT (#334568) #
I could see them try to get another pen arm from the rule 5 draft.
Often a middling prospect will find succes by focusing on an upticked fasball and putting their secondary offerings on the back burner. Maybe a lefty.
ISLAND BOY - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 07:34 AM EDT (#334569) #
I was ok with the Smoak extension at the time, but he seemed to turn into an offensive black hole after that. You'd think a player being paid millions could hire a hitting coach in the off season and work on pitch recognition so he wouldn't spend the next season flailing away at breaking balls low and outside for yet another strike out.
scottt - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 08:03 AM EDT (#334570) #
Maybe they just use Smoak as  a late inning replacement in the 8th or 9th inning. It's not enough money to matter. It's like the money they gave to Morales.



Chuck - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 08:49 AM EDT (#334571) #
Being a player in your 30s means dealing with the nagging injuries that your body has withstood over a lifetime of playing. That's all part of ageing-related decline. And take any group of players in their 30s and it's reasonable to assume that collectively they will decline. Some individuals may improve, but not likely the group as a whole.

Both Martin and Tulowitzki logged the most plate appearances in a season since they were 26. And it was the 4th highest totals in each of their careers. Whatever they suffered through didn't keep them off the field. Though in Martin's case, a stronger backup catcher would likely have resulted in less playing time for him, which almost certainly would have benefited him.

Bautista lost a lot of playing time for the 3rd time in 5 years, so this is probably more normal than his incredible run of good health in 2014-15, at ages 33-34.

Donaldson was clearly hampered by less than perfect health. That was obvious for all to see. Still, he exactly matched his OPS+ from 2015 so didn't suffer too badly from his aches.

Saunders, after a career of poor health, logged his personal high in plate appearances. This was especially impressive given his knee situation and his general proclivity to become injured in one way or another. He seemed unduly gifted with good health.

As for Travis, yes indeed, the young man has been snakebit. Let's hope he's not looking at a Bob Horner career path of chronic injury. He's the only member of the team who I feel comfortable claiming suffered from undue bad luck with regards to health.

Chuck - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 08:59 AM EDT (#334572) #
Maybe they just use Smoak as a late inning replacement in the 8th or 9th inning.

On a short bench, there is hardly room for someone with that job description, particularly at first base.

Kasi - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 09:26 AM EDT (#334573) #
Sure CF you can run a team on anecdotes. Yeah some old hitters might improve and some pitchers might not regress and you can construct a narrative looking at the Jays players that they could rebound collectively next year. But that's just anecdotal. Like Chuck said there is a lot of science on how players age. The Jays profile to have a lot of 30+ year old players, and science tells us that makes it likely they will regress. It doesn't make it a guarantee no. But projections on data show that just bringing back our current FAs isn't enough. The Jays need to bring in more talent to compensate for the decline of the team. I just don't see where that talent is available.
ISLAND BOY - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 09:51 AM EDT (#334574) #
Maybe the front office will sign a couple of outfielders that we will react to like the J Happ signing, but will turn out nearly as well. I am very interested to see what will happen, and I agree with those that say the Jays are going to retool, not rebuild.
Kasi - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 09:57 AM EDT (#334575) #
Yep, it's what I said when the season is over. They need an OF version of Happ, someone who is signed on a 1.5 WAR rate but gives us a 3 WAR season.

I do think Upton has a chance to be better next year if platooned properly. Tulo's bat his first few months here was also bad and I think it can take a bit for a hitter to get accustomed to new team/environment,
uglyone - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 09:58 AM EDT (#334576) #
The age argument would be more convincing if you factored in improvement from young players. When you don't, it just ends up sounding pessimistic, not realistic.

The Jays have a handful of guys over 30 signed at the moment, not "a lot" of them.
dalimon5 - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:05 AM EDT (#334577) #
Last year the front office acted very quickly, which was a nice breath of fresh air compared to AA. They knew they wanted Happ and jumped the market to sign him.

If I were GM I'd:
*Let everyone walk except Grilli
*Drop a wad of cash for Chapman and Hill
*Trade for Votto by giving up one of my young SP not named Sanchez or Reid Foley and taking on all the salary
*Spend the rest on back up catcher, bullpen and places holders for Rowdy and Pompey and Reid Foley

If we're really lucky we will get new grass. BTW, the Rogers Centre had a completely new level that was renovated and set up for the post season, above the West Jet sign, that entire 4th level was fixed up with pot lights and bars.
Kasi - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#334578) #
What improvements from what young players? Stroman I can see some improvement if he keeps doing what he does in the second half. Sanchez's innings will go up, but I don't see him improving in overall numbers since I don't expect him to lead the league in ERA again. Osuna is not going to be any better as a reliever so that's out. Pillar yeah I think a profile depandant on defense and base running is likely to decline since he can't hit. And Travis is injured all the time and his bat is heading in the wrong direction. 2016 Travis is much different than 2015 one. So yeah I see of the above two who could improve our of five. We have no one from the minors ready to step in so of course I'm pessimistic. Projections of the curent team minus EE and Jose have us pegged as a 80-82 win team next year, so I think realism in this argument lies more on my side than yours uo. five young players isn't a whole lot to bet the future on compared to the rest of the team.
uglyone - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:24 AM EDT (#334579) #
Do you honestly not see the unfairness in automatically assuming old players will get worse regardess of context, while making excuses as to why every young player won't benefit from that very same aging curve?
Kasi - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#334580) #
Just take a step back from the closeness of being a fan of the team and stop constructing narrative of how you think players will develop and decline. Look instead at the numbers and profiles of the players involved and you'll see that this team has a lot more chance to go down than improve. Counteracting that will take significant payroll expenditures, something I'm not sure the Jays are willing to do. Lotts article goes a lot into breaking down why that's fairly unlikely.
China fan - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#334581) #
"....I just don't see where that talent is available...."

That's an incredibly pessimistic statement.  I mean, you are known for pessimism here, but that one is quite amazing.
uglyone - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:30 AM EDT (#334582) #
p.s. there are no actual projections for next year yet, and if you are referring to the fangraphs articles well of course if we let all our FA go and don't replace them we'll be worse - but that has nothing to do with aging.

And again, you keep implying the team is older than it is. Next year ages - Martin 34, Happ 34, Estrada 33, Tulo 32, Liriano 32, Donaldson 31.

That's all of the "old" guys. 6 names.And they're not all that old.

Kasi - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:30 AM EDT (#334583) #
http://www.fangraphs.com/library/the-beginners-guide-to-aging-curves/

As you can see from the young studies the idea lately of players getting better in aging curves is false. Generally within a year of breaking into the big leagues is the best a player will ever be. Aging curves define where players start to break down. This idea of improvement in young players in years 2/3/4 before they hit 28 isn't really born out by facts. So yes Osuna and Pillar are young and under that number. It doesn't mean they're going to get better.
Kasi - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#334584) #
FA market CF is considered to be the worst in years and our minor league players aren't ready. I don't see why that is a shocking statement. Any improvements that are dramatic are going to be diamond in the rough type signings like Happ or from trades.
China fan - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:35 AM EDT (#334585) #
"....He seemed unduly gifted with good health..."

I disagree with that statement.  Saunders did get a lot of plate appearances, it's true.  But the Jays were clearly uncomfortable with having him play in the outfield.  They replaced him often for defensive purposes in the late innings, or put him at DH.  And they tried to trade him for another outfielder at the beginning of the season, which suggests that they knew that he'd have defensive problems in 2016. 

If you're saying he seemed unduly healthy for someone who had 60 per cent of his meniscus removed, I might agree.
uglyone - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:35 AM EDT (#334586) #
Look at the curves in that fangraphs article, chop off everything to the right of age 34 as the jays don't have anyone who fits beyond that, and tell me what you see.

You aren't being objective.
China fan - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#334587) #
Kasi, your original statement wasn't that the FA market was weak.  Your original statement was that you couldn't see any place where talent was available.  There's an entire world of talent out there, and there are many ways to acquire that talent.  The Jays have money, they have scouts who can spot talent anywhere in the majors or the minors or the international countries, and they have trading chips, including roster players and low-level minor players.  They are restricted only by their imagination. 
Kasi - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:40 AM EDT (#334588) #
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/hitters-no-longer-peak-only-decline/

This is what I'm referring to. Stats bear out this idea of players improving after they hit the majors is false. So yeah it's quite likely we've seen the best Travis and Pillar we will ever see.
Kasi - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#334589) #
I feel quite objective after looking the team over and listening to what baseball writers say about our team going forward. I'm sure when Szymborksi comes out with his projections that they'll align closely with mine.

On your point CF sure I agree with that in general. My point isn't with the general future but with the composition of next years roster. Trades are the big unknown there. I just don't think FA and our minors will be able to add enough talent. But sure with the right trade it could change things a lot. We know Donaldson did.
jerjapan - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#334590) #
I remain very optimistic about next year - this is what I'd do.

Grilli's option appears to be a no-brainer and I've mentioned targetting Chapman or a similar reliever before, but given that we have don't have unlimited resources, I can't figure out the appeal of Votto whatsoever.  If any team is going to be able to get a good price on EE, it's Toronto.  not a 'hometown discount', per se but I could see him going with Toronto over 'top dollar'.  He can handle 1b with Smoak as his defensive caddy before shifting over to DH for Tellez, who is close to the bigs.  why go and get a monster contract - $179 milion guaranteed till his age 40 season! - to block our closest position player aside from Pompey?  Votto, who has never been a plus defender according to Fangraphs and was a whopping 18.7 defensive runs below average this year?

In other words, why in the world would we pay a prospect premium to acquire the decline years of an older DH when we have those players already willing to resign at, I suspect reasonable prices.  Even if they are hugely market inflated prices, they aren't Votto prices.   It's easy to imagine us with an affordable solution at DH / 1b from among our current FAs.

I'm dramatically less concerned about a sixth starter than the rest of the Box seems to be.   Biagini can be stretched out in-season, so the only real risk is a few starts where he's not ready for any length and we have to use a bullpen game.  With the proximity to Buffalo and the seeming surplus of AAAA relievers who could contribute a quality season sometime, I almost prefer a bullpen game.  We already have Mike Bolsinger and presumably a few AAA vets will be signed for the Buffalo rotation.  And I wouldn't rule out SRF of Jon Harris being ready for big-league starts in the second half of the year. 

If we can sign an elite reliever, we don't need much more money on the pen - see if we can get Benoit / Cecil back at reasonable prices, try to get a quality platoon set up in the OF and find a quality backup catcher.

Anyone have specific backup catchers in mind?  David Ross?  Rene Rivera?  Both had good framing numbers this year and would be affordable.  Chris Iannetta?  poor framing this year, but a quality defensive player.  Overall, it's an underwhelming list of names out there.

http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/free-agents/catcher/

BTW, suggesting Osuna won't improve because he's just a reliever seems really odd to me.
 
China fan - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#334591) #
"....this team has a lot more chance to go down than improve....."

If the team does absolutely nothing in the off-season, yes.  But why would we bother with that unlikely scenario?  We know that the Jays are going to make personnel changes in the off-season.  Why not wait and see the changes, and then debate whether it's enough?

"....Sure CF you can run a team on anecdotes....."


You call it "anecdotes" but I call it "looking at specific players on the roster rather than making a sweeping generalization about all players in baseball."  By your logic, we should get rid of all veterans in their 30s because of the chance of decline.  There's going to be a mix of veterans and younger players on any team.  It's a matter of which veterans are kept on the team, and whether they contribute enough to the team.  The Jays will probably have fewer of those aging or unhealthy veterans on the team next year, since some of them are inevitably departing, so let's see which ones are kept.  That's not an "anecdote" -- that's dealing with reality, rather than statistical generalizations.  The Jays shouldn't get rid of Estrada or Happ or Liriano or Martin or Tulowitzki just because of their age, and certainly not because of generalizations about veterans of that age. 
Kasi - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 11:03 AM EDT (#334592) #
Osuna won't improve because in general pitchers don't improve after making the majors. Now if he gets changed to a starter sure, but I'm unconvinced his shoulder will hold up to it. And regardless doing a risky transition seems to be at odds if we're trying to compete next year. Rather have a guaranteed solid closer than a percent chance on a starter.

CF I never said get rid of all old players. I said they decline. That's fact especially as they get more years past thirty. The roster is what it is and expecting those old players to improve as a group is where I agree with Chuck. Cameron went over it in his article but it won't be easy to replace the declining contribution of players and FAs unless payroll goes up.

Given the weakness of the FA market and our farm system the only way right now to bring talent in to compete for the AL east is trades, which will further depress the chance of our minor league system contributing young players. Sure let's see what the offseason brings but I have a feeling a lot of you are going to be very disappointed when big talents aren't brought in when the FO decides to not shop prospects. It will be more Happ/Estrada type signings. I just hope it's enough to compete next year.

Look guys you can keep piling on me for not being optimistic. But unlike you I'm thousands of miles away and not enmeshed in the fandom of the team. All I see are numbers. And when number projections like ZIPs and others get run I think they'll align closely with my views.

uglyone - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 11:06 AM EDT (#334593) #
Kasi, you can't be objective when you claim that a team is old due to having 6 players between ages 31-34 next year.
uglyone - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 11:10 AM EDT (#334594) #
And again, Cameron had the basics of our payroll wrong - he said it was $140 this year when in fact it was $160. That's a good 3 wins worth.

He also made other mistakes liie claiming guys like Liriano were older than they are.
Kasi - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 11:18 AM EDT (#334595) #
Any FA brought in will be in decline already. It's not that you have six players between that age (a number I disagree with) but that the number of players not in decline age is 5-6. Thus 75-%+ of the players on next years team will be at risk. Anyway I'll table this discussion until we see the projections come in. I envy you guys your rose colored glasses.
uglyone - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#334596) #
Kasi,

a) I don't get how you can "disagree" with that real factual number;
b) it wasn't my rose coloured glasses that got the jays to the ALCS this year, though your glasses prevented you from seeing it, whatever colour they were.
Kasi - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#334597) #
Every player on this team not named Pillar, Osuna, Travis, Sanchez and Stroman is in that age range. Add Pompey if you want and think he'll be good. Everyone else (including any FAs they bring in) will be in the decline curve. So in my view 19 players are at risk.

Like I said before I'm thousands of miles away. There is no Jays fans to celebrate with here. I'm of the opinion it's title or bust. For people who can celebrate the journey that's cool because they had that experience. Otherwise it's just if they won the title or not. I'm also a Flames fan and they're not terribly happy in general about how the 2003 Playoffs went down. Also a Ducks fan and no one fondly remembers losing to Ohio State two years ago.

Like John Madden said: "The only yardstick for success our society has is being a champion. No one remembers anything else."
jerjapan - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#334598) #
Osuna won't improve because in general pitchers don't improve after making the majors.

???

This statement deserves a bit more evidence than the tossed-off truism that you think it is.  How in the world do you define this?  How do you control for usage patterns?

I arbitrariyl looked at the Jays and the Red Sox starting rotation and relief aces to see how those pitching staffs emerged.  I left out the knuckleballers, because knuckleballers. 

Price took a full season to become an elite starter.  Pomeranz finally emerged as a quality stater this year - his 5th season.  Bucholtz had 34 starts before his breakout 2010 campaign.  Porcello just had his best campaign in year 8.  Only Craig Kimbrel started off at basically his peak fWAR.

On the Jays, Stro may validate your narrative, but Estrada and Happ sure don't.   Would Sanchez have been a elite starter out of the gate?  Highly unlikely - he added 20 pounds of muscle this past offseason.  Liriano's had a crazy career due to injuries, and emerged as a future ace, but his best season by fWAR came five years after his debut.

And don't forget, Osuna had all of 109 IPs stateside in the minors, and is still 21.

Frankly Kasi, I think we could pick any team randomly and disprove that statement, unless you care to qualify it further.  No 'rose-coloured glasses' required to see an argument that needs work. 
Kasi - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 12:05 PM EDT (#334599) #
Look at what I linked above Jerjapan.

"In the past, people used to hope for improvement and growth as the player aged. These days, people should expect to see the player performing at his career best immediately."

Anyway like I said before with anecdotes. If you want to disprove Zimmermans article based on exhaustive numerical analysis go ahead. All I was saying earlier on in this thread is it's very easy to take the rosy view of players in specific and look at how they've improve. Analysis (not to mention the results of this past year in regards to the Jays offense). Statistics say for every player that does improve another will decline. You can't just assume all of ours will end up on the better side. Hence rose colored glasses.
jerjapan - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#334600) #
You mean your link to an article on hitters?  Not sure that applies to pitchers.

You keep talking as if your points are objective facts, yet all the evidence you've presented on this point is a three year old article on hitters - so the burden of proof appears to be on you.  Like I said, pick any team and let's look at it.  I took two teams I'm interested in and in no way does your point appear valid based on those two.

You don't want to bother to find evidence, fine, but perhaps then recognize that your opinion - like all of ours - is equally valid conjecture.

Chuck - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#334601) #
If you're saying he seemed unduly healthy for someone who had 60 per cent of his meniscus removed, I might agree.

I'm pretty sure that's what I said.

"Saunders, after a career of poor health, logged his personal high in plate appearances. This was especially impressive given his knee situation and his general proclivity to become injured in one way or another. He seemed unduly gifted with good health."

uglyone - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 12:50 PM EDT (#334602) #
Currently signed Jays, age as of next year

Martin 34
Happ 34
Estrada 33
Liriano 32
Tulowitzki 32
(Upton 32)
Donaldson 31
(Thole 31)
(Smoak 30)
Carrera 29
(Goins 29)
Loup 29
Pillar 28
Tepera 28
Biagini 27
Barnes 27
Stroman 26
Travis 26
Sanchez 24
Pompey 24
Osuna 22

missing a 1B, DH, and a few RP.
Kasi - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 12:55 PM EDT (#334603) #
It would help if you read the article.

"For years, pitcher performance declined as those players aged, but hitters seemed to have an up and down performance curve. In the past few seasons, hitters no longer improve once they arrive in the majors. Instead, their performance is constant until they begin to decline, which, on average, is at 26 years old."

Pitchers have always been that way.. I'm sorry that statistical evidence taken over fifty plus years doesn't disprove your anecdotal evidence. I'm done with this debate since I can't argue emotion and anecdotes. (Hint: this article being three years old doesn't disprove it) You guys can all return to the time honored BB tradition of predicting why our players will improve and the opponents won't.
vw_fan17 - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#334604) #
"In the past, people used to hope for improvement and growth as the player aged. These days, people should expect to see the player performing at his career best immediately."

So, any successful rookie should be traded ASAP, because he'll never be any better? To get the best performance, the entire team should be made of ONLY rookies. No sense keeping 'em for next year, because they'll never get any better, only decline with age.

Except, of course, for (not looking at Travis and Pillar because they're too young):
Russell Martin - 5.5 WAR season 7 years after his other big season of 5.6.
Edwin - didn't have a "good" season until age 29, then 5 straight "good" seasons
Josh D - a 7.7 WAR in his first full year, 2 years later, 8.8 WAR
Saunders - career best 2.4 WAR came after 6 seasons in the majors
Bautista - yup, never did better than those first 5 seasons of negative WAR..

The ONLY Jays position starter who may have followed this pattern is Tulo (2nd year was his best so far). And maybe Upton, if 2 really bad seasons, then a good season counts.

Also, by this argument, Pompey had his shot, failed, and should be discarded.

I'm sure the article goes into more details, but to me, that premise (players never improve) is really faulty. Unless somehow we managed to get all the stats-defying players.

Not to mention the pitchers who improved long after breaking in: Estrada, Happ, Dickey all were better than their first few years. Grilli and Benoit also took several years to have their best years.

Just how many players is this supposed to apply to? 51%? It seems to me that easily HALF our "older" players had mid/late-career improvements/peaks. When our team is full of players who disprove this rule, not just one or two anecdotes, I really have to question this research.. I'm sure it's true, but, it feels much more wrong than the "players decline as they age" - that one seems obvious.
Parker - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#334605) #
Kasi's right. Old players are expected to decline from production levels where they've already proven themselves. Those are the players who prop up the aging curves that show how guys get better up until age 29. Because they DID get better during those years. Assuming any player on the upside of that traditional curve is going to get better based on that is foolish. You're predicting someone is going to do something they've never done before, as opposed to predicting someone who's already done it is going to get worse at it as they get older. How much better has Pillar gotten along his aging curve? Goins? Carrera?

A player has to show a curve of consistent improvement for several years before intelligent analysis can assume he hasn't already topped out. And by several years they mean more than two or three.
Parker - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 01:34 PM EDT (#334606) #
So, any successful rookie should be traded ASAP, because he'll never be any better? To get the best performance, the entire team should be made of ONLY rookies. No sense keeping 'em for next year, because they'll never get any better, only decline with age.

That's foolish and intentionally antagonistic.

The players you mentioned actually DID those things. I must've missed the posts where you predicted those specific players were going to do the things you've listed. Why isn't Brett Lawrie getting better each year? Why isn't Yan Gomes?
CeeBee - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#334607) #
The last part of this thread is making my eyes roll so bad I can barely see straight enough to type this.
BlueJayWay - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#334608) #
Maybe we should just go with the plan of filling the entire roster with LHB. With speed.
jerjapan - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 02:27 PM EDT (#334609) #
Kasi, I did read your article.  It contains nowhere near the evidence you need to be as definitive as you are in your posts.  Dismissing contrary reports as 'anecdotal' when the only evidence you every generate is a link to the same few Fangraphs posts over and over again is laughable.  I doubt I'm alone in questioning an article on hitter aging curves (and damn man, we ALL know about aging curves) as evidence on pitcher aging curves!    I at least invite you to present further evidence to shore up your weaknesses, but you resort to ad hominem comments about the naivety of the posters who disagree with you. Not to mention your relentless inability not to straw man. 

The consensus on pitcher aging seems to be that their velocity will diminish from their MLB debuts, and by their thirties performance will decline.  But that's it for consensus on pitcher aging curves.  Obviously, that's highly significant, but the use of aging curves is such a crude measure when talking about individuals that it bears noting that not all pitchers rely on velocity to the same extent.  Here are tons of alternatives to your POV.  This first is a 'classic' article from 2010 - and yes, a few years makes a significant difference when understanding of the topic is evolving so rapidly.  Why I like this article is that it addresses so many of the confounding factors on understanding aging that you seem to be willfully ignoring.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9933

a key quote that addresses the noise:  "strikeout ability peaks around 24, while walk prevention peaks nine years later. Again, veteran know-how appears to be playing a role in improving performance to compensate for diminishing physical skills. This is consistent with something that exercise physiologists have documented"

this one addresses some of the same issues I have with thinking about aging:

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2014/2/25/5437902/pitching-aging-curves

Here's one that is closer aligned to Kasi's argument, and yet it sill demonstrates that while the skills that make pitchers effective are declining with age, the performance of the pitchers is not markedly impacted until their mid to late 20s. Because velocity is not the only measure of effectiveness!

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/72512952/major-league-baseball-pitchers-velocity-peaks-at-an-early-age

At the end of the day, there are WAY to many variables in play to resort to truisms that suggest that Robert Osuna won't improve because he's an MLB pitcher, and they don't improve.

I'd love to here from other posters on this subject if anyone cares to weigh in?

uglyone - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#334610) #
Again a simple ask - look at the aging curves in Kasi's first posted articee and cut it off at age 34, which is our oldest players.

You will see what looks like a perfect rainbow.
scottt - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#334611) #
Average curves are nice, but a team is made up of 25+ players with their own anecdotal performance.

Has Estrada lost some velocity? It seems he's down 1mph from his break out year in 2015. Could be due to the games in which he threw out of the pen. Has that affected his ERA? It's up from 3.13 to 3.48, but that might have more to do with the 6 man rotation and his back issues. He was awful for a month and amazing the rest of the time. Did he get tired? He looked fine in October.

Happ's velocity was down 0.2 mph from last year and a full 1 mph from 2014, a year in which he tried to throw as hard as he could before he figured out how to generate weak contact. He threw harder this year than every year from 2008 to 2013.

Liriano is a funny case. His fastball velocity went 90, 90.5, 94.2, 91.8, 93.3, 93.0, 92;7, 92.1, and 92.4 this year. He was bad in Pittsburgh, but his overall number in Toronto were much better than his career average.

Stroman could easily improve just based on his babip. Sanchez could have a Cy Young year.

The rotation looks great to me.

Richard S.S. - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#334612) #
First Base:
Edwin Encarnacion http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/e/encared01.shtml
or
Joey Votto http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vottojo01.shtml Who should it be?

Joey Votto is a far superior First Baseman. He's very good defensively, has an amazing OBP and is a LHB. Edwin Encarnacion is none of the above.

Both players are exceptional offensive players, real heart of the lineup talent. The next three or four years could be played at First Base with the remaining years at D.H.

Edwin Encarnacion will be cheaper in $$$ and in term. He will only cost cash and the loss of a draft pick. I think Joey Votto is a far superior player and well worth those costs.
Oceanbound - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#334613) #
Zimmerman's article raised some interesting ideas, but you can't just look at it blindly. MGL pointed out some serious problems with his methodology in comments to a later article, and as far as I can tell Zimmerman never really addressed those concerns. I would take that "new" aging curve with a fairly large grain of salt.
Richard S.S. - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#334614) #
How to reconcile aging curves and perceived improvement?
Players get more experienced, are healthier, become more effective, become more consistent. They are seen as being better, despite aging curves.
Nolan Ryan and Mariano Rivera and others invalidate aging curves to a degree because they can't be explained.
Projections lean heavily on aging curves, but never consider if experience, health, effectiveness and consistency could make them better.
Aging Curves is a fine tool to use, but it's not the only answer.
Kasi - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#334615) #
Once again the hostility of this board shines through, see you guys next year and enjoy the offseason. Enjoy the echo chamber!
lexomatic - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 06:05 PM EDT (#334616) #
Why isn't Brett Lawrie getting better each year? Why isn't Yan Gomes?

Those are terrible examples to illustrate a point - there's very obvious reasons.

Lawrie is pretty clearly a headcase, and doesn't have a good work ethic.
Gomes has been injured.

Those are two very common reasons for players not to improve.
jerjapan - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#334617) #
Enjoy the echo chamber!

are you kidding?  these aren't even your bugbear posters talking here.  just people discussing ideas.

if you don't dig intellectual challenges, happy not to hear from you!

vw_fan17 - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#334618) #
The players you mentioned actually DID those things. I must've missed the posts where you predicted those specific players were going to do the things you've listed. Why isn't Brett Lawrie getting better each year? Why isn't Yan Gomes?

Then how DID Bautista and Encarnacion have bad-to-ok years until age 29, and then have good-to-great years? Did they - gasp - improve?

I'm not trying to argue that this will happen to ALL players. But you seem to be arguing that it happens to NO players. Or at least, infrequently enough that it should never even be considered in player evaluation (i.e. "he's young, he has room to grow" should NEVER be uttered). I'm saying half our team seems to defy that argument. Which seems like a really high number if it's almost never true.
John Northey - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 08:12 PM EDT (#334619) #
The aging curves is interesting but the fact is players do decline, quickly often once they hit 32. For example....
1985 Jays: seen as a dynasty so what happened? They did go 500+ from 1983 to 1993 but it took a drastic overhaul to win the WS.
CA: Ernie Whitt peaked in WAR at 31, kept it up to 37, then was traded and collapsed (from +2.7 to -1.2 in a year)
1B: Willie Upshaw Peaked at 26, done at 31.
2B: Damaso Garcia Peaked at 25, negative WAR from 29 on
3B: Rance Mulliniks: peaked at 29, last 1+ WAR at 32
SS: Tony Fernandez: peaked at 24/25 (same both years), second peak at 37 then in Japan for a year (never did figure that one out - 728 OPS in 2nd half but 977 in the first half - replaced by Tony Batista) with a tiny bit of negative WAR when he came back.
LF: George Bell peak at 27, negative WAR at 32/33 then done
CF: Lloyd Moseby peak at 24, done at 31.
RF: Jesse Barfield peak at 26, negative WAR at 32 and done
DH: Jeff Burroughs peak at 27, also his last year over 2 WAR, done at 34

So we see 2 guys who were regulars in '85 who were in the majors after age 34 from a team with 99 wins. I'm not talking regulars, just in the majors. Most were done like dinner by 30. Strangely the two who lasted were the catcher and the shortstop, the two who had serious injuries in 1987.

Kids under 25 on that team who weren't regulars...
Cecil Fielder: peak at 26, under 2 WAR a year from 29 on, done at 34 (was at Jays spring training at 35 but didn't make the team).
Lou Thornton: 0 WAR lifetime so doesn't matter
Manny Lee: peaked at 27 (Jays first WS), done at 30 with 1 PA.
Ron Shepherd: never developed
Kelly Gruber: Peak at 26, done at 31
Jeff Hearron: never developed

A good warning about betting against age curves. Yeah, some guys (Whitt, Fernandez) beat it but the vast majority don't. I'd bet you could check any season's regulars on the Jays and get a similar result.
eudaimon - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 08:50 PM EDT (#334620) #
I'd be happy to not hear about aging curves for the rest of the offseason.

There's no denying that aging curves exist. But trying to predict the future in baseball is a fools game. There are no absolutes. Some veterans will fall off a cliff, while others will perform at a high level into their late 30s and even early 40s. Do we know when it's going to happen? No way in hell. The best we can do is guess based on scouting, and analysis of peripheral stats. For example, I think a lot of the league knew that Ryan Howard was not going to live up to that last contract he signed, due to the worrying trends in his batting line and the fact that he had a big body that couldn't field even in his prime. Same with Prince Fielder. Albert Pujols is a similar example I suppose, though I'd say it wasn't as bad of a signing. You have to trust the front office (which I do) to judge which deals are worth the risk (and there's always some risk) and which ones aren't.

It's pretty clear that, even if a few articles say such and such a thing, that there are many exceptions to the "rules". Jerjapan noted many such examples, so I won't go into that so much. But again, claiming to know anything for sure in baseball is silly.

Petey Baseball - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#334621) #
My top 5 players the Jays could realistically acquire:

1. Votto
2. Encarnacion
3. Reddick
4. Kenley Jansen
5. Adam Eaton
Cynicalguy - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 10:50 PM EDT (#334622) #
This is what the Jays have going into the offseason.

Lineup

DH
C Martin R
1B
2B Travis R
SS Tulowitzki R
3B Donaldson R
LF Pompey S
CF Pillar R
RF

Bench
1B Colabello R
1B Smoak S
IF Barney R
IF Goins L
OF Carerra L
OF Upton R

RHP Sanchez
RHP Estrada
LHP Happ
RHP Stroman
LHP Liriano

RHP Osuna
RHP Grilli
RHP Biagini

Offseason Priority
1. Sign Encarnacion or Bautista to DH and play some 1B
2. An above average outfielder who is good at defense (i.e not Saunders)
3. 2 above average back of the bullpen arms with at least one being a lefty
4. Big bat to play 1B
5. Backup Catcher
scottt - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 11:13 PM EDT (#334623) #
Votto is owned 172M. That's a lot of US dollars. Since signing his contract, they have finished, 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 5th. And for the most part they've only paid him around 15M for 6 WAR. Now he's at 4 WAR and next year will cost 22M. Votto is interesting if the Reds picks up half the tab or maybe send around several of those top picks they've been drafting along.

Reddick would make a great platoon with Upton.

Jansen made 10M this year. The price will be crazy and Osuna has blown only 3 saves this year.

Eaton is the best player on his team and has a team friendly contract. I'd take him, but I have no idea how he would end up here.

pubster - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 11:35 PM EDT (#334624) #
Aging curves are a real thing.

However, nothing is certain.

If you take 100 players that are 30 years old, you can say something like "75% of these players will decline over the next 3 years" (I'm making this up) but it is difficult saying which 75%.

So knowing this would you want to sign a 30 year old to a long term expensive contract?
John Northey - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 11:37 PM EDT (#334625) #
What we do know for certain is that if you take a group of 10 random players who are 32+ years old odds are extremely high that 7-9 will be out of baseball by the time a 3 year contract is over. The Jays outfield of the 80's were extremely athletic yet the one who lasted the longest (George Bell) was the least all-around player of the group (weakest defense of the group). None made it to 35.

Jay career leaders in WAR...
Jose Bautista: still active but just 1 WAR at age 35
Tony Fernandez: peaked at 24/25 lasted into late 30's but during the steroid era (I loved him as a player but honestly have to suspect he was a steroid guy)
Carlos Delgado: last 'wow' year was 31, last solid year at 34, done at 37
Jesse Barfield: peak at 26, negative WAR at 32 and done
Vernon Wells: last good year at 31, just 1 WAR after that done at 34
Lloyd Moseby: peak at 24, done at 31.
Edwin Encarnacion: still active, entering age 34 season
John Olerud: last good year at 34, lasted to 36
Roberto Alomar: last half decent season at 34, done at 36 (don't get much more athletic than him)
Devon White: last good year at 35, lasted to 38

So I just took the 8 most elite players in Jays history and only one had a good year after age 35. That was Tony Fernandez and that was highly likely to be steroid induced (it is extremely odd that he only did well after coming back here in '98 when Canseco and Clemens were here then was allowed to go to Japan after two wow years).

Still think it is a good idea to sign Bautista or EE to seasons 35 years old and up? I sure don't. I hoped to see something different. A few exceptions but I don't see them. I could hunt around the majors and get David Ortiz and other HOF'ers or near HOF'ers and maybe Bautista or Encarnacion will be one of those but the Jays would be nuts to bet $100+ mil on something like that. Maybe Boston thinks it has a magic formula or thinks FanGraphs estimate of EE being worth $30 mil this year will hold for 2 more years then he drops to the $20 level for 2 more thus making a $100 over 4 year deal make sense.

Sheesh - looking at FanGraphs the Jays made out like bandits with EE: $43 million for 2011-2016 EE produced $156.1 million. Nice profit margin there. $18.85 mil a year profit for the Jays off EE. I could see them resigning him for $20 a year for 4 or 5 years and writing off the last 2 so it is 3 @ $33.3 mil per for all intents covering 34/35/36 seasons with 37/38 as bonus years and even if he flops they basically would break even over the 11 years total. Don't see them doing that though as that'd be dumb - right now they have banked $113 mil, don't want to risk tossing out most of that. If someone else offers him that then so be it, they can take the very likely loss.

Lets hope either the Jays get lucky and he signs for 4 years at $20 per (thus not a massive loss if he collapses as is likely, as much as I'd love to see him be an exception), or someone else blows the wad on him 5 years at $25+ per thus hurting their budget and giving EE a great retirement gift.
scottt - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 11:43 PM EDT (#334626) #
I don't have a crystal ball, so for now, I've just been looking at the Cleveland Club and how it was put together.
Maybe there's something to learn there.

First the rotation.

Corey Kluber was a 4th round pick from the Padres. They got him in an amazing 3 team trade by offloading Jake Westbrook. He didn't start in Cleveland until he was 26. Bad the first year. Average the second. Then he won the Cy Young and has not really declined since despite being 30.

Carrasco is an international signing from the Phillies. They got him by trading Cliff Lee, whom they got by trading Bartolo Colon, the only ex-Expos still in the biz. Signed at 16, Carrasco was traded at 22 and the Cleveland Club gave him 5 starts that year and he was very bad. Another stint at 23. 21 starts at 24 (Still mediocre). Injured the next year. Another bad year and then he finally improved at 27 and has been good since. They got him for another year at 8M and 2 options year at 9M each if he doesn't regress too much since he's already over 30.

Salazar was an international signing at 16. They brought him up at 23 and he's has been good off the bat, so to speak.
He's 26 and will be going to arbitration for the first time.

Bauer was the 3rd pick overall in 2011. They got him from Arizona in a 3 team trade.
He was brought in the majors at 21 and this year was his first being better than average. This will only be his first year of arbitration at 26.

Tomlin was a 19th round pick. He reached the majors at 25 and pitched poorly for 5 years until he put 2 decent years together upon reaching 30. He signed an extension when he sucked so he only makes 2M.

After writing this, I feel even better about the Jays rotation.

TangledUpInBlue - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 11:47 PM EDT (#334627) #
I'm not sure whether Kasi's argument is right or not but if you're only looking at current rosters to try to disprove it, there's going to be survivorship bias. Think of Ricky Romero.
scottt - Saturday, October 22 2016 @ 11:53 PM EDT (#334628) #
Despite having a good rotation, Cleveland seems to suck at drafting and developing pitchers.
Especially if you take into consideration that they've been drafting early some of those years.
It would make sense for Shapiro to hang on to what he has here.

Richard S.S. - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 12:08 AM EDT (#334629) #
Votto is owned 172M.

And apparently the cost of WAR has or is going up, again. People are willing to pay a barely average 1B named Edwin Encarnacion $20.0 million a year, but don't want to pay a much superior 1B named Joey Votto $2.0 more. Strange.
scottt - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 12:16 AM EDT (#334630) #
The article Kasi linked was only saying that position players aged 21 to 25 haven't improved. This seems to be related to using WOBA, a normalized metric. At any rate, Toronto has no position players aged 21 to 25, so I see nothing worth arguing there.

As I just pointed out, the Cleveland rotation has improved from 21 to 25. I know Baltimore and NYY have had problems with young pitchers, but I think it's all a case by case. Ricky Romero had a great year than lost the plate. Nobody can plan for that. When you have a pitcher who is an all-star, you can only expect him to perform. That's why I think Biagini at AAA to cover in case of injury in the first half makes the most sense. They've added Chris Smith to the 40 roster, he could be a good bullpen guy and will likely get his shot next year. He's 28 and throw a 98 mph fastball with a slider.

Glevin - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 02:13 AM EDT (#334631) #
Ageing curves are not about certainty but about likelihood. It's looking at thousands of players and saying what is likely or very likely. People tend to use outliers as examples but they are outliers for a reason. So a right handler pitcher who throws 89 mph might be The next Maddux, and the 35 yo DH might be gave the career path of Ortiz but counting on either is simply stupid management. Those are cases that are extreme outliers of course. You expect older players to generally get worse and younger players to generally get better but the former is inevitable and the latter isn't. The question for ageing players is when they will lose their value and how much. For example, Tulo has gone from a 5 WAR player to.a 3 WAR player very quickly. What will he do in the next four years? You can expect a decline obviously but he could stay at a 2-3 WAR player for th next few years or he could start losing his value more gradually or he could fall off a cliff but he will not get better.

Younger players are trickier. Younger players who struggle or have holes in their game you can expect improvement but younger players who are great often don't improve. So, I expect Stroman to be better but I don't think Sanchez has a lot of room for improvement. But he doesn't need to improve as he is already one of the best pitchers in the league. Or to put it this way, Mookie Betts was very likely to improve this season but not particularly likely to improve next season.
jerjapan - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 04:38 AM EDT (#334632) #
Good points!  enjoying hearing from everyone about this topic.

The survivorship bias TUIB mentioned is very interesting, although I'm not statistically minded enough to know how best to address it.   the links I posted discuss the topic.

The thing I'll say about EE and aging is that he is still operating at peak level.  since 2012 he's posted fWARs of 4.30, 4.0, 3.6, 4.5 and 3.9.  cherry pick those numbers and he's maybe declining but his baserunning and fielding seems to be consistent as well although his K% is up this year.

I think a players previous season is more predictive than factoring in an inevitable decline based on age.   Like Glevin predicting Betts will stabilize next year, I think EE will remain stable for the next few years, and could easily be worth the contract.

Richard, nothing strange whatsoever about not wanting Votto.  Look at the first sentence of your post! 

Glevin - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 07:39 AM EDT (#334633) #
Ther s a big differwife nice between saying a 25 yo will stabilize and a 34 yo. I think it was Ron Shandler who used to put players in categories of chance of staying the same/improving/getting worse/falling off a cliff. If you look at Encarnacion I'd say tge most likely scenario by far is either the same or a slight decline but that's for one year. The further you go, the more inevitable the decline and the more likely the complete collapse. he had a 3.7 WAR this year with a career high in PAs. This was his worst year since 2011. He's a great hitter so even as he declines if he declines slowly, ,he will be very valuable but I think someone is going to pay him way more money than he will be worth. He will be paid for four or five years for being the hitter he is now and I can't see him being that hitter for more than a year or two and there's a chance where he will be overpaid almost immediately.
scottt - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 08:59 AM EDT (#334635) #
So a right handler pitcher who throws 89 mph might be The next Maddux, and the 35 yo DH might be gave the career path of Ortiz but counting on either is simply stupid management.

Well, there's a huge difference between individual expectations and averages. The declining curb looks like a rainbow, but it doesn't mean that older player decline faster. It means that players who contribute less decline faster. An 8 WAR player this year would profile for 7 WAR next year, no matter his age. The individual expectation for a player is like a bell curve whose center lies half a WAR lower than his last performance unless that player is still in his early 20s, than that center would be his last performance.

You retain the players who contributed the most WAR to your team and you replace the one who didn't contribute with ones you expect to contribute. The age is not a factor in year to year decision. The craziest thing is to sign long back loaded contracts to players expecting them not to decline for 5 or 10 years.

All the Jays starting pitchers are good and signed to short term contract. Great expectations and little risks. So, let's plug the holes and see how things are midyear. Should they sign long term contracts to plug those holes? Only if they can trade those guys away as soon as they find a cheaper/younger option. DH might be an exception because you're sheltered from the player's defensive decay, but 5 years and beyond is just crazy.
BlueJayWay - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 09:03 AM EDT (#334636) #
On the roundtable they did a few days ago with Blair, Brunt, Davidi and Zwelling, someone (I think it was Davidi) said that based on what he's heard, a team trading for Votto would probably only have to pick up ~$100MM of that contract, with the Reds eating the rest. So basically you're trading prospects to get Votto for 7 years at $100MM. I think in that scenario it would be the term that would scare me more than the money.
lexomatic - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 09:12 AM EDT (#334637) #
John, I find raising the issue of steroids with Fernandez to be completely unfounded, even though you've expressed it as only your opinion. I really hate what that whole witch hunt had done to fandom. I wouldn't be surprised if the time away playing on more grass helped his longevity. I'm pretty sure bmb all had a few more years of playing if mostly on grass

He your age table.   I'm on a phone so editing is hard. I still would be fine with Bautista on a qo but I'd have a hard time signing EE for 4/80.

greenfrog - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 09:15 AM EDT (#334638) #
I would like to see the Jays sign Hill, keep Biagini in the 'pen (for now), and use Liriano as the sixth starter. Hill is likely to be better value than Votto, Encarnacion, Reddick, or Trumbo, in my opinion. Or heck, the Jays could sign Hill and trade for Votto.

The extra rotation depth will almost certainly come in handy in 2017 (because of injuries and/or underperformance by one or more starters) and will definitely be valuable in 2018 (because of the departure of Estrada and Liriano). If it turns out that the team has an excess of pitching, an asset or two can always be traded to fill other needs.

I recognize that this is a contrarian view that is unlikely to get much traction among the "spend big on a DH/1B" crowd.
John Northey - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 09:35 AM EDT (#334639) #
Fernandez is actually my favorite all-time Jay and I hate accusing him of PED's but you look at normal aging, his career and the painfully obvious bump mid-1998 to mid-1999 and something is very, very fishy there. He went from a decent 2B to a poor 3B defensively quickly, his offense went from mid-90's OPS+ over a 9 year stretch to the 120's for 2 years (age 36/37) at the same time he joined a team with a notorious PED user (Canseco) and a guy being kept out of the HOF over a Jay trainer claiming to have started him on a PED routine (Roger Clemens). It just stands out like a sore thumb and I'm amazed we haven't heard stronger rumours, although I suspect it is because he is viewed as a nice guy by most and is a 'who cares' now as he was never going to the HOF. I agree the witch hunt for PED's is nuts but when examining for guys who performed late in their careers you have to put a big * beside anyone who looks likely to have done PEDs especially in the 90's when it was the wild west.

EE 4/80 I could see if the team feels confident he is in good enough shape to hold his performance for 2 more years after which he'd be a 2 WAR player most likely. So 2 years of 3 WAR, 2 more around 2 would give you 10 WAR for $80 mil or $8 mil a WAR which is about as far as I'd push it. 3.7 WAR last year, cut 1/2 a WAR a year and you get 3.2, 2.7, 2.2, 1.7 over 4 years = 9.8 so about my estimate and acceptable at $80 over 4. If someone gives him 5 years or $100 million then walk away and wish him the best of luck.

Same with Votto, after a 7.6 in 2015 he dropped to 4.0 last year. Using 0.5 cuts per year you get 3.5, 3.0, 2.5, 2.0, 1.5, 1, 0.5 over his 7 year contact or 14 WAR for $179 million or $12.8 mil per WAR - ick. If Cin covers $79 mil then it is $100 mil or $7.14 mil per WAR which is a good deal. I could see the Jays saying Cincinnati only has to cover $50 mil and the Jays give up a non-prospect or two and maybe get a half decent one ala the deal to get Liriano. Of course, with a no-trade clause Votto could demand his last year get fully picked up so it ups the cost by $13 mil for a 0 WAR year most likely. The deal could be done but not easily. Still, the Jays are probably the best positioned other than the Yankees to do it right now (with Teixeira & A-Rod retiring). Heck, thinking about it the Yankees are probably the best place for Bautista & EE as DH/1B are open although Gary Sanchez might take DH.
ComebyDeanChance - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 11:04 AM EDT (#334640) #
a guy being kept out of the HOF over a Jay trainer claiming to have started him on a PED routine (Roger Clemens)

McNamee didn't work for the Jays. He was Clemens' personal trainer.
scottt - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#334641) #
Liriano makes too much to go to the pen. He's also a potential QO target following a good year.
He could end up in the pen if he's got an ERA over 5 after a couple of month, but certainly not in April.
Estrada is also a potential QO target. Not a guy anybody wants to sign for more than 2 years.
At any rate, having too many starters already, it would require a premium to sign more, since it's pretty clear that nobody would have a guaranteed rotation spot.

I hope the new market efficiency is not to sign starters at 15M per year and put them in the pen.
Otherwise, we have no chances of competing with NYY and Boston.

Parker - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#334642) #
Then how DID Bautista and Encarnacion have bad-to-ok years until age 29, and then have good-to-great years? Did they - gasp - improve?

I'm not trying to argue that this will happen to ALL players. But you seem to be arguing that it happens to NO players. Or at least, infrequently enough that it should never even be considered in player evaluation (i.e. "he's young, he has room to grow" should NEVER be uttered). I'm saying half our team seems to defy that argument. Which seems like a really high number if it's almost never true.


That's fair, and it's a legitimate criticism of my position. You're absolutely right - you can't count on either side of the spectrum because there are always going to be outliers; guys who beat the curve.

At the risk of Monday morning quarterbacking, though, most people thought the Diaz-Bautista trade was a big loss for the Jays (at least until Bautista broke out, which NOBODY predicted, or that anyone really COULD predict.) Encarnacion could've been grabbed by any team in the league after he was waived, picked up by Oakland, and then almost immediately waived by Oakland.

There are always going to be outliers on both sides of the curve. Arrieta for the Cubs - he didn't look like anything until age 28. Justin Turner, even - he was a league-average platoon guy from 26-28, then all of a sudden broke out at 29. I'm just saying that for every Bautista or Encarnacion or Arrieta, there are four or five dozen players with similar career numbers who don't break out, and are out of MLB far before these outliers are hitting free agency and getting giant paydays. Nobody remembers these guys. It's almost impossible to predict one vs. the other, as evidenced by both Bautista and Encarnacion - one who was traded for a mid-range prospect in a deal that almost everyone panned at the time, and one who could've been picked up for free by any team in baseball. They worked out great for the Jays, and thank God they did, because could you imagine what this team would've looked like for the last five seasons WITHOUT those two guys as their best pure hitters?

I'd also point out that the hitting coaches credited with turning them into superstars are no longer working for the Blue Jays, and the current hitting coach who preaches all-field gap hitting presided over a team that managed to be at or near the top in both striking out AND hitting into double plays. Expecting young hitters to improve (at least based on coaching) might not be a safe bet for the near future. On the other side of the coin, though, the pitching has been very good, and barring injuries, should continue to be very good for at least the next couple seasons.
scottt - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 12:26 PM EDT (#334643) #
It's factual that McNamee was a PED dealer hired by Clemens.
You can choose to believe that Clemens hired him to work on his wife.
It's enough bad judgment to keep someone out of the HOF at any rate.

In French, they use the word Temple to describe the Hall.
It's not the Brothel of overachievers.
greenfrog - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#334644) #
having too many starters already

In my view, your basic premise is wrong. The Jays do not have too many starting pitchers.
scottt - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#334645) #
Quick look at the Cleveland position players.

At Catcher we find Yan Gomes, a cleverly traded player that the Jays drafted in the 10th round but didn't value. Probably because he's more a contact hitter than a slugger.

There's also Roberto Perez, a 33rd round draft. Mostly a defensive backup playing because he's cheap.

At first, we have Mike Napoli who signed a one year 7M contract following a bad year (for the whole team) in Boston.
Napoli is an other guy that AA didn't seem to value.

Second is manned by Kipnis, average defensively, mostly hit for average with just enough pop to produce 4~5 WAR of offense. They drafted him in the second round.

At third, there is Jose Ramirez, a converted shortstop from the Dominican Republic. He's having a breakout year a 23, but he's now got 3 years of service time and yes, he's improved from 0 WAR to 4.

At shortstop they have Lindor, their star. Drafted 8th overall and only 22. He's been good from the start.

They win by platooning an outfield of replacement level players. I'm just going to to skip them.

At DH, we find Carlos Santana. Oye Como Va. Came to Cleveland as the result of a July deadline trade. Originally a weak catcher, he has spent some time at first and left field. He's a lot like Encarnation except he's a switch hitter and he's about 3 years younger.

Well, I'm off to ponder how we lost to those guys. They could easily finish 3rd if their offense regress a bit.

bpoz - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 02:45 PM EDT (#334646) #
No help from the farm in 2017 it seems. Maybe a 4th OF that surprises us. D Pompey, Dwight Smith Jr or Harold Ramirez.

The pen may also get a surprise boost. Another A Loup. I would like to see someones castoff like S Dyson or D Farquar come to the Jays and blossom.

I am counting on a surprise or 2.
Jdog - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#334647) #
Danny Barnes...after the year this guy had in AAA , would love to see him get a bullpen spot and run with it.
jerjapan - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#334648) #
Ther s a big differwife nice between saying a 25 yo will stabilize and a 34 yo. 

Of course true, but I still think that the previous year is more significant than the age of the player, and I find it hard to describe last year as Edwin's worst year since 2011.  at least by fWAR, his last five years have been remarkably consistent.  sure, it's a counting stat, but his health is a positive IMO. 

If we get the team friendly 4x20 million contract - best case scenario - he'll be worth it easily.  30.8 million in value this year per Fangraphs. 

Glevin, do you think that FO's actually overpay FA's on purpose?  I sense a real distrust of free agency from lots of posters here and I wonder what makes people think that it's inherently a bad idea to sign a big ticket FA.  I'm talking expensive FAs - obviously everyone is in favour of the Happ / Estrada contracts. 

Also, to the posters that think we need more starting pitching, can you tell me which teams you think have the right model?  what is the right model - 6 legit starters?
Cracka - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#334649) #
No help from the farm in 2017 it seems.

I think Rowdy Tellez could play in 2017 - he may even have a shot of making the team in April depending on what happens in free agency. He's far from a "sure bet", but there was a lot to like about his 2016 season: consistency, late season power surge, good walk % and K %, started using the whole field, improved defensively. If he keeps it up in the spring AND if there's a roster spot open, he could find himself getting a shot.
bpoz - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#334650) #
I too think that Tellez could be a big power bat for the Jays quite soon. He is a lefty and has all the good abilities that you mentioned. But as mentioned by many 2017 may be 1 year early.
vw_fan17 - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 10:49 PM EDT (#334651) #
That's fair, and it's a legitimate criticism of my position. You're absolutely right - you can't count on either side of the spectrum because there are always going to be outliers; guys who beat the curve.

At the risk of Monday morning quarterbacking, though, most people thought the Diaz-Bautista trade was a big loss for the Jays (at least until Bautista broke out, which NOBODY predicted, or that anyone really COULD predict.) Encarnacion could've been grabbed by any team in the league after he was waived, picked up by Oakland, and then almost immediately waived by Oakland.


Fair enough. And I had not thought of the survivorship bias either. It just _seems_ (which means, I haven't done the stats, and am just going by gut feeling, which is usually wrong) that there are a LOT of players who did improve. Perhaps only those who do improve are likely to stick past 28, unless they have a HUGE rookie/1st year. And that it's actually not true in general, but we only see the survivors. Much like the legendary high-school-dropout-self-made-millionaire. It happens. But you never hear about those who never go anywhere.

"left-handed pitchers often take a few years to click" is a baseball-ism that also _seems_ to have some truth to it. Which is why a lot of lefties get a lot of chances. Warranted or not.

I'm not trying to claim that the studies are 100% wrong, and my gut is 100% right - that would be foolish. I guess what I'm saying is: I accept aging curves, and that players over 30/32 (whatever age) decline for the most part. Heck, I've LIVED it - I think my best softball season was at 31 or 32. And I'm still "hanging on" at 45 :-) Age-based decline (there's that word again) _seems_ to me to be more often the case than that players don't improve between 21-25. I know I improved a lot between my age 16 rookie year and my (I think) career year at 31..
DH - Sunday, October 23 2016 @ 11:23 PM EDT (#334652) #
Would you take Ryan Braun in LF? $80M in salary over next 4 seasons. One might assume the Brewers would take little in terms of return if you ate the whole contract, with a sliding scale afterwards in terms of salary vs. prospects.
AWeb - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 08:53 AM EDT (#334653) #
If Votto was available with the Reds eating ~$70 million of his contract (mentioned upthread), that would be a no brainer if the Jays only had to throw out a couple of lottery ticket prospects. I'd give Votto a $100 million over 4, so the same over 7 would be amazing. Votto is the best non-Trout hitter in baseball and left-handed, basically exactly what the Jays need. If his defense wasn't so terrible in 2016, his WAR would have been up around 6. Not sure what happened to him this year in the field, but I have seen a quote or two of him acknowledging he needs to work on it. Terrible defense might be a bad sign, but he was as good as Ortiz this year batting if he ends up being a DH. He managed to be the best hitter in the NL despite not getting to face the Reds pitching staff. No extra credit for stinking in the first two months, but he just hit .408/.490/.668 after the all-star break.

I'd take a chance on Braun if the Brewers picked up some contract there too. Braun at 4x20 doesn't look great, but 4x15 would. The Jays need offense from the OF somewhere. I think the best use of payroll space that the Jays very clearly should have is to take on guys like Votto and Braun if the price is reasonable. Free Agency looks terrible this year, and likely will a lot of years in the future as teams lock guys up in advance of it so much more often. Old and good is still good though, the Jays don't have to win "best franchise projection in 2020" to win in 2017.
jensan - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 09:03 AM EDT (#334654) #
Makes for an old team together
SK in NJ - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 10:03 AM EDT (#334655) #
Votto is locked up until age 40. I don't see why the Jays would have any interest there when they don't even want to extend their own free agents because of age. Re-signing Bautista or Encarnacion wouldn't cost prospects either, which obviously trading for Votto would (especially if the Reds are picking up a big part of the contract). I think this front office cares more about term than AAV. Seven years is a long time for any player, much less one who is already 33.

If the Jays sign/trade for any older players, it will probably be very short-term (ex. Matt Holliday/Carlos Beltran types to DH for a year, etc). I wouldn't expect them to get tied up long-term for any players in their mid-30's.
pubster - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#334656) #
"I don't see why the Jays would have any interest there when they don't even want to extend their own free agents because of age"

The Jays will extend players if they feel they are getting good value.

For example, I'm sure they Jays would sign Bautista to a 10 year contract if the entire contract was worth $10mil.


It doesn't have to do with the players age as much as the value of the contract.
uglyone - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#334657) #
The "survivors bias" is real, but there are other biases as well.

Many youngsters break into the league hot, but with the insane thoroughness of scouting and analytics nowadays its imo easier to find and expose holes in a player, and youngsters often can't match their initial surge due to this, and it has absolutely nothing to do with aging curves.


But if I have one wish this offseason is that we stop caring about age as if it it's the most important thing in the world. it's not. let's worry about getting better, first. worry about things like balance, health, age a distant second.
John Northey - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 11:30 AM EDT (#334658) #
Braun makes a ton of sense imo. 4.4 bWAR last year after a 3.8 the year before. He plays LF and RF thus fills a hole and even was a 3B when first called up way back in 2007 thus fitting the 3B to star route of EE & Bautista (more a cute thing than anything else).

His contract is very nice at $20 for 2017/18, $19 for 2019, $17 for 2020, $15 for 2021 (or $4 mil buyout - mutual option). At 4.4 WAR this year using the old 0.5 drop per year method you get 3.9 next, 3.4 2018, 2.9 2019, 2.4 2020, 1.9 2021. Easily worth the contract and then some. So why would Milwaukee dump him? PED issues as I suspect local fans haven't forgiven him plus Milwaukee is a very small market (about as small as it gets in MLB). Given their small budget they might be willing to send Chris Carter off too as he is in arbitration years and might be pushing their budget thanks to a 41 HR year. Their other big contact (sorta) is Matt Garza at $12.5 mil plus $5 mil buyout for 2018. In Milwaukee he has an 87 ERA+ so he has been poor for them but could be a good #6 here (expensive #6 but #6 none the less). Take all 3 and you are looking at around $40 mil next year which would end the Jays shopping for this winter but would fill RF/1B nicely and #6 starter. Plus given Milwaukee is cheap they might want little in return if the Jays ate all that extra payroll. Plus the only long term deal to deal with is Braun thus not limiting the Jays badly beyond 2017.

I suspect that massive deal would depend on payroll parameters going forward and how the team feels about pushing payroll for 2017 then dropping a bit in 2018 and beyond.
Beyonder - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#334659) #
Are we seriously at the point where we are prepared to discuss adding Ryan Braun in sterile cost-benefit terms? It's one thing to take on a repentant cheater like Melky; I think it's another altogether to welcome a guy who cheated, lied repeatedly about it, never properly apologized for or explained what he did, and tried to ruin the life and impugn the character of the dude who collected his urine.
Parker - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 12:35 PM EDT (#334660) #
Yeah. For totally subjective terms, I don't want the Blue Jays to have anything to do with Ryan Braun. The guy is scum. His "apology" absolutely reeked of "I'm sorry I got caught."
AWeb - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 01:05 PM EDT (#334661) #
Little harsh with the "scum". Braun did what lots of other major leaguers have done, but got caught. Like anyone with tens of millions of dollars on the line, he fought against it as long as he could. It would be great, but a "guess you caught me, I concede" attitude isn't generally associated with pro athletes. Why Melky is on the "better cheater" list baffles me, that guy set up fake websites trying to evade punishment. That it looked funny in retrospect doesn't make it better...

Braun does come with a rather large risk of missing a year due to suspension that most players simply don't have, which should drive his value down. There aren't too many hitters as good as him though, especially on teams who may not want them.
Beyonder - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 01:15 PM EDT (#334662) #
AWeb. Not really harsh. Read either of these articles below and tell me if you're still baffled.

After the initial denial, Melky apologized for using. Braun has never done so.

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2013/07/dino_laurenzi_jr_ryan_braun_yes_the_brewers_star_is_a_drug_cheat_but_there.html

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ryan-braun-doped--lied-and-cared-only-for-himself-050550708.html
eudaimon - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#334663) #
I don't think it's harsh. I don't judge the actual cheating that much - I can understand the temptation to get better and make more money (and in some cases it might actually be honourable if you're helping family or whoever). Melky's fake website hurt no one and I actually respect the innovation involved. But Braun actually attacked the guy who collected the sample, and put his life through hell for a while until he was caught again. In my view Braun is a great example of a "human stain" and I don't want him anywhere near our clubhouse. Cares about no one but himself.

AWeb - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#334664) #
I guess I just see "scum" as a lot harsher term for somebody, probably my own thing. Braun might be a self-interested narcissistic jerk, a liar, sure. His urine sample was handled slightly improperly, and MLB didn't exactly cover itself in glory in how it obtained the evidence, but he was almost certainly guilty of his offense.

But he did apologize, as much as anyone does these days.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/9592973/ryan-braun-full-statement-admitting-ped-use

Following grand tradition of literally everyone who was ever caught doing anything that might be illegal at some level, he admitted to exactly as little as he could get away with (see also: Andy Pettitte, Gary Sheffield, etc.). Then he served his suspension, and has come back to play well. I'll save my outrage for those who committed violent or dangerous crimes (hi Matt Bush!), or whose lies to the public might actually impact the public (hi every politician ever!) but you can't build the best team while removing a segment of the players who other teams are able to employ.
eudaimon - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#334665) #
I agree that there are other biases involved uglyone. In particular the one you mentioned, where a young player starts off their career well before the league realizes how to get them out / hit them. The Blue Jays have a few recent examples, like JP Arencibia (started off as a sort of serviceable hitter, at least for a catcher, then reverted to being totally useless), Brett Lawrie (had a great quarter of a season before settling in as a largely mediocre hitter), Russ Adams (had a barely passable season with the bat to start his career, but fell out of the league within a few years), and Randy Ruiz. I'm sure there's more examples as well.

To be honest I'm not quite interested enough to look at that article and see how they calculated their data, but survivorship bias and this (non survivorship bias?) are definitely things that should be considered when assessing aging curves and the like. In general though I think that assuming X player will never get better, or that Y player is going to fall off a cliff next year because they're old is a losing battle. Really, you have to trust your scouts, look at the stats, and determine on a case to case basis what you think is the most likely outcome. And even then there will always be some risk involved.

uglyone - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 02:18 PM EDT (#334666) #
the guy who never apologized after being caught was David Ortiz.
Parker - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#334667) #
If I got caught doing something explicitly against the rules of my chosen profession, not only would I never find work again in that industry, but I'd most likely be facing criminal fraud, misappropriation, or breach of trust charges.

When clients offered me the opportunity to do so for greater personal wealth, I immediately suspended my contract and threatened legal action, which the client did not pursue, as the paper trail for their illegal activity was several miles long.

Yeah, I'm not a baseball player, and taking steroids doesn't make me better at my job. But right is right, and wrong is wrong, and I don't think any amount of creative semantics are ever going to change that.

People who intentionally break the rules are scum. People who intentionally break the rules and then try to blame others when they get caught are a type of scum that thankfully I've yet to encounter in my profession.

Feel free to judge.
bpoz - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 03:02 PM EDT (#334668) #
Do we ever get a clear answer about the yearly budget?

With Richardi it used to be a fixed number if I recall correctly. He also used every penny of it.

Budget speculation is my least favorite topic. I usually skim through the posts and often feel that the poster does not have facts to base their post on. It is an opinion and then reasons to back up their opinion.

A media personality may say going up or down but I think it is made up to stimulate interest.

But I believe I have heard B McCowan ask the question directly. But the response had no answer.

This is probably Trolling on my part. Trolling... Attempting to get a response on a subject. So yes I am doing that.

Parker - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#334669) #
Sorry, what I meant to say was that after suspending the contracts they suggested I'd be subject to legal action until I threatened to counter-sue and shared with them documentation that would've made them liable for criminal prosecution. They chose to pay out my contracts and considered the matter closed, instead. My clients were not on the hook for anywhere near what the Brewers are paying Braun, though.

Braun might be a great ballplayer but he has no business playing ball in a league that puts on a show as if it cares about role models and fair play. Maybe MLB needs to introduce an enforce a default contract clause that automatically voids any contract of a player caught in violation of certain rules.
SK in NJ - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#334670) #
Atkins is speaking to the media today. Nothing he said was too shocking, but main takeaways were:

- Will qualify both Bautista and Encarnacion.
- Still deciding on Saunders.
- Will pick up option on Grilli.
- No intention of stretching Osuna out as a starter
- Biagini could be stretched out if he's open to it.
- Coaching staff will return except Eric Owens (assistant hitting coach).
- No word on payroll yet.
- Open to 3+ years for "right reliever".
- Likes the free agent market based on team needs (lots of 1B/OF/DH types).
- Mentioned Pompey, Jimenez, and AAA relievers as players who could contribute in 2017.

A lot of fluff, and obviously we won't know their real intentions until moves are made, but it's Blue Jays related baseball stuff.
uglyone - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#334671) #
Biagini has about as good a chance of being a good MLB SP as brett cecil.
Parker - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#334672) #
I love the Grilli option, as long as Gibbons can be reined in as to his usage. Less usage of any one high-leverage reliever two out of every three days, on average. When you need to carry eight bullpen arms, one would think this would be self-evident.
scottt - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#334673) #
As a starter, Cecil mixed in a slider and a change up, threw his fastball  more often and his less used pitch was a curve.

As a reliever, he dropped the slider, barely uses the change and his curveball has become his number 1 pitch.

Biagini mixes 3 pitches curve, slider  and change up with his fastball, while Osuna has only 3 pitches, fastball, slider and change up. Osuna will often crank his fastball up to 97 mph, while Biagini doesn't throw as hard and rely more on command.

scottt - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#334674) #
I don't see why they would need to publicize the budget.

They've shown that they like to keep some money available to make deals during the year rather than spend every dollar in the spring.

scottt - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 06:26 PM EDT (#334675) #
On top of knowing what we know, they have access to Osuna's medical history.

But "right reliever" does he mean lefty?

Is Jimenez still considered a good defensive catcher with a plus arm? They could use him as backup and either trade to replace him or promote McGuire if he's hitting at AAA if they need an upgrade at the deadline.

Same with Pompey.

Letting Biagini choose is an awful lot of goodwill.

uglyone - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#334676) #
Pitch F/X

Osuna 60.9% FB, 20.7% SL, 7.3% CH, 6.6% SP, 4.5% CT

Biagini 60.2% FB, 17.4% CU, 15.3% SL, 7.0% CH
Cecil 45.5% CU, 26.4% FB, 21.2% SI, 6.0% CH

and all 5 of Osuna's pitches grade as good to great, while Cecil and Biagini both have 2 pitches that grade well and 2 poorly:

Value/100 pitches

Osuna CT +2.57, SL +2.11, FB +1.27, SP +0.85, CH +0.84

Biagini SL +1.21, FB +0.65, CU -0.20, CH -0.42
Cecil CH +5.46, CU +0.56, SI -0.77, FB -1.14

but pitch mix is only one factor. Osuna was a great milb SP even while very young for his level, Cecil was very good to at a solid age....Biagini was a mediocre milb SP even while far too old for his level.
Glevin - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#334678) #
" Osuna was a great milb SP even while very young for his level, "

No he wasn't. Career minor league era of 4.38, WHIP of 1.23, in his last year in the minors, he has the fourth worst era on the team. In his last two seasons in the minors he had eras over 5.50. He struck out a lot of guys and he was young enough to improve as a starter but calling him even a good pitcher in the minors would be a huge stretch.
SK in NJ - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 08:32 PM EDT (#334679) #
Osuna became a reliever before he had a chance to perform as a SP in the minors. I wouldn't say he was great in the minors either, but he was injured and/or coming back from injury for a bulk of his minor league time. I did not agree with promoting Osuna in 2015, and a part of me still doesn't, but in hindsight, he's been so good as a reliever the past two years that you could argue the Jays maximized his potential given the volatility of young arms and Osuna in particular coming with red flags (TJS, not great mechanics, lack of innings, etc).

I'm fine with keeping him as a reliever. What I would keep an eye on is potentially trading him when he gets into his expensive arbitration years. Young relievers, with a few exceptions, do not have long shelf lives. Osuna is great now, but who knows how long that will last. It's just a very volatile position (relievers).
uglyone - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 08:41 PM EDT (#334681) #
he was nothing short of incredible, actually - while 2 years young for each level.

Rk+ (17): 7gms, 25.3k%, 6.3bb%, 1.50era, 3.25fip
A- (17): 5gms, 29.4k%, 10.6bb%, 3.20era, 2.97fip
A (18): 7gms, 33.1k%, 3.9bb%, 2.43era, 2.83fip

and then he got injured. he tried to pitch through it for 3 more starts that year before getting surgery:

A (18): 3gms, 18.4k%, 12.2bb%, 17.00era, 6.89fip

and then showed a lack of command upon return the next year:

A+ (19): 4gms, 25.0k%, 13.3bb%, 10.03era, 5.62fip

before finishing off back to his dominant self:

A+ (19): 3gms, 36.6k%, 2.4bb%, 2.61era, 2.33fip

aside from a short stretch after blowing out his arm, he showed an astonishing level of dominance for a kid 2 years young for each level - the kind of performance you get from only the elite of elite prospects.

It's why he cracked top 100 lists as an unknown 17yr old, and why a stats based projection like KATOH saw him as a top 5 prospect in baseball despite not pitching higher than A ball.

bpoz - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 09:23 PM EDT (#334682) #
I agree totally with uglyone.

Osuna was signed at a very young age by the Jays. I could not find the stats, but I believe that Vancouver won the championship in 2012 and Osuna was the playoff Ace.

In 2013 he had 10 bad starts at Lansing and then TJ. In 2014 he had 23 bad innings in the minors after the TJ.

I had faith in him. I am an optimist. So me Uglyone and a few others, maybe more, believed that he was going to be good.

In 2015 and 2016 he was great as the Jays closer. I have to admit that I did not know he was going to be this good so fast at such a young age.

Osuna as a SP is a different story. I think that he will start next year, 30%. As an optimist I think he will be good in either role.

uglyone - Monday, October 24 2016 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#334683) #
But again, in 2013 in lansing he actually had 7 great dominant starts...and then got injured, and tried to pitch thru it for 3 horrific starts which made the 10 starts look bad collectively.

here's an article from that season before he was injured: http://m.milb.com/news/article/2013042545825506
cybercavalier - Tuesday, October 25 2016 @ 02:13 PM EDT (#334714) #
I am just putting these comments to see if they could catch on. Pittsburgh seems to help aging or struggling veterans to return to a satisfactory contribution to team performance: Liriano, A.J. Burnett. Bautista's batting struggles in Pittsburgh was on a TSN broadcast that his batting timing had been off.

Does trading Bautista to Pittsburgh in this offseason make sense if his QO shall fall through ? In extension, shall a Pirates, Reds and Jays trade rearrange Votto to Toronto in taking EE's place shall EE leave T.O., Bautista to Pittsburgh, and maybe EE to the Reds.

Some readers may think this is a revised edition of Lind-Votto or EE-Votto trade discussion. However, given a new non-AA management and Donaldson takes major contributions in numbers from the maturing core of EE and Bautista, the trade idea makes sense again, in my humble opionion.
ComebyDeanChance - Tuesday, October 25 2016 @ 02:58 PM EDT (#334715) #
The age argument would be more convincing.....

Other arguments that "would be more convincing".

1. The gravity argument.
2. The earth-going-round-the-sun argument.
3. The evolution argument.
4. The flat earth argument.

Hopefully fangraphs can clarify.
James W - Tuesday, October 25 2016 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#334716) #
Does trading Bautista to Pittsburgh in this offseason make sense

Under current realistic circumstances, you can't trade free agents.
Chuck - Tuesday, October 25 2016 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#334717) #
Does trading Bautista to Pittsburgh

Bautista, Encarnacion, Saunders and Cecil are no longer under contract with Toronto and thus cannot be traded.

Mike Green - Tuesday, October 25 2016 @ 03:38 PM EDT (#334718) #

Does trading Bautista to Pittsburgh in this offseason make sense if his QO shall fall through

Get back.  Get back.  Get back to where you once belonged. 
cybercavalier - Tuesday, October 25 2016 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#334722) #
Good to learn from CBDC, James and Chuck as meanings are straightforward. However, are Jimenez and Pompey are minor league free agents ? If not, where to find information about how long a minor leaguer remains under contract before becoming a minor league free ageent. As for Jimenez himself, I think I read (uglyone's ?) comments in this season that Jimenez has regained consideration as a potential MLB callup candidate with his performance as a Bisons. Thole and Dickey are likely to be gone. Shall bringing in the backup catcher from outside of the organization help ease Jimenez to MLB ?
Chuck - Tuesday, October 25 2016 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#334724) #
Neither Jimenez nor Pompey are free agents. A google search yielded this explanation of how a minor leaguer can become a free agent.

My guess is that the team signs a current major leaguer to be Martin's backup, very possibly Navarro. I'd be surprised to see Jimenez viewed as anything more than an emergency major league catcher.

Chuck - Tuesday, October 25 2016 @ 05:47 PM EDT (#334725) #
I wonder if I have misspoken, and whether Jimenez is indeed a free agent. Pompey isn't, that's for sure. But Jimenez has been toiling away in the minors for a good long time now.
cybercavalier - Tuesday, October 25 2016 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#334726) #
I would like to guess that Navarro wants more than a backup role. At the moment, Jimenez is an emergency catcher candidate but players with his age (26-27) can break out soon. Then the Jays shall capitalize on that break out; a good timing would be he being the 3rd catcher after number one Martin; in other words, Jimenez likely be the emergency catcher to begin 2017 season and this perspective of breaking out correlates with Chuck's observation.
bpoz - Tuesday, October 25 2016 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#334727) #
I think Pompey cannot be a minor league FA because he is on the 40 man roster.
Jimminez is a minor league FA because he is not on the 40 man roster.
Dwight Smith Jr, I am not sure. He has spent 6 years in the minors as Jays property and unless added to the 40 man roster this year, he is a minor league FA.
cybercavalier - Wednesday, October 26 2016 @ 09:58 PM EDT (#334783) #
Maybe the Jays would have kept Ryan Schimpf, who then break out as a Padres. Given his case, baseball america mentioned Art Charles as the best hitter in his independent league, and Charles is a 1B left handed bat. It makes sense to taking chance of him in Buffalo 2017.
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