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I was wasting my time scrolling through the Twitter when my beady eye lighted upon this particular image and I thought I would share.

Isn't that cool? Consider the most common item on the list, hitting for the cycle. It's not that common. There have been just five of them in some 3500 games played in Toronto over these forty plus years (Gruber and Frye for the Jays, Brett, Davis, and Betts for the visitors) and I managed to be there for one of them (Jeff Frye, attendance 22,384.)  The other one I can claim is one of the true rarities, the perfect game lost with one out remaining, known to history as the Roberto Kelly Game (attendance 48,789.)  I have no idea how many games I've been on hand to see - roughly five or six hundred - and I've got none of the others. Definitely never seen a no-hitter, definitely never seen someone hit a homer in his first career at bat.

I can claim a rarity that doesn't make this list, because we've been talking about it lately - the World Series walk-off homer. There have been just 15 of them, and five of them were hit in New York City (one at the Polo Grounds, the rest... well, you know.)  They squeezed in 52,195 that evening, so I shouldn't be alone.
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Magpie - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 02:09 PM EST (#426461) #
WHoa - I could have shrunk that image more than I did. Does it need to be smaller?
John Northey - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 03:01 PM EST (#426463) #
I'd love to know how often a no-no was lost on the final batter - poor Dave Stieb. 3 times (including the perfect game). If he had gotten that final out those 3 times he'd have had 4 no-no's and a far better shot at the HOF.
Magpie - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 03:14 PM EST (#426464) #
I'd love to know how often a no-no was lost on the final batter

As near as I can figure, it's 65 (I found a list of 60 that went up to Carlos Carrasco in 2015, and there's been another five since.) Sleepy Bill Burns is the only other multiple victim besides Stieb. He's best remembered for having something to do with the 1919 shenanigans. He may have been Rothstein's representative. He definitely met with Gandil and Cicotte before the games began.
JohnL - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 05:32 PM EST (#426465) #
Fascinating list. Like you, I saw one cycle (Gruber’s), and that walkoff WS-winning HR that didn’t make the list.

Also not on the list: triple play in the World Series. I was at one of only two ever. Though in that case, the umpire blew the call. Still… a special moment.
John Northey - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 06:16 PM EST (#426467) #
Walk off home runs to win a World Series - 2. Joe Carter and Bill Mazeroski. Just 15 walk off home runs in WS history according to this article. One of my favorites though has to be Kirk Gibson game 1 1988 on two bad knees, against the best closer in baseball history to that point at his peak. If you are too young to remember it - I strongly recommend watching. Saw it live on TV in university on a tiny 2 inch black and white TV. Couldn't believe it. It was amazing at the time.
Magpie - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 06:20 PM EST (#426468) #
I was a little surprised that 4 GIDPs has only happened twice: Goose Goslin in 1934 and Joe Torre in 1975. Victor Martinez did come very close. After grounding into three double plays, he came to bat with Cabrera on first and no one out. But he didn't ground into another one.

He lined out to first, and Cabrera was doubled off the bag.
Magpie - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 06:22 PM EST (#426469) #
Just 15 walk off home runs in WS history according to this article.

You have to feel for Dusty Rhodes. You hit a three-run pinch-hit walk-off HR in extra innings to win a World Series game - and no one cares. All anyone is talking about is a flyout to centre back in the eighth inning.
johnny was - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 06:24 PM EST (#426470) #
The 4 HR game is one that I find quite impressive because it really makes no sense at all to pitch to someone who has 3 HR in his first 3 or 4 ABs. Delgado had one, but so too did ex-Jays Mark Whiten (STL) and Shawn Green (LAD).
Magpie - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 06:31 PM EST (#426471) #
so too did ex-Jays Mark Whiten (STL) and Shawn Green (LAD)

The immortal Scooter Gennett hit 4 of his 87 career HRs in the same game.

Gibson's famous HR was the first WS walk-off in 13 years, since Carlton Fisk in 1975. Fisk's was the first since Mantle in 1964.

So naturally, three days after Gibson's we saw the next one, from Mark McGwire.
grjas - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 06:58 PM EST (#426472) #
Also not on the list: triple play in the World Series. I was at one of only two ever. Though in that case, the umpire blew the call. Still… a special moment.

Ugh. Brings back bad memories. Not only did the ump miss the call but Gruber blew out his shoulder which basically ended his career. "In the top of the (fourth) when I dove for (Deion Sanders), that's when everything just fell apart, because I dove for him and I blew out my left shoulder, because I'd just been playing so long and everything was so weak and finally it just gave."

If only he’d thrown the ball…
uglyone - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 08:07 PM EST (#426473) #
Not sure if you tried shrinking the pic but it seems like you somehow shrunk the font of the author info of this post on the front page.
JohnL - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 08:36 PM EST (#426474) #
That Gibson HR! I also watched it on TV (I'm old, but I don't remember 2" TVs!), and it's now perhaps my favourite YouTube baseball video - the Vin Scully version. All the drama (0-2, 2 out, Dodgers will have to face unhittable Hershiser in game 2), and Scully gives an absolute master class in baseball broadcasting.

His language & phrasing: brilliant. And then after the HR, more than a minute of silence! If only play-by-players today understood they don't have to talk through everything...

That 1+ minute is followed just by "In a year that has been so improbable, the impossible has happened." Then 30 more seconds of silence. The visuals, the crowd noise said far more than someone in the broadcast booth could.

Hall of Fame moment - for Gibson & for Scully.
John Northey - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 08:51 PM EST (#426475) #
Agreed JohnL - both Gibson and Scully had their brightest moment there. The cameramen too - getting Gibson's pumping around second on video live when most go to the crowd at that point.

As to the 2" TV - that was my Dad's portable TV in the 80's - he won it at a golf tournament (he won at least one tournament a year from 1969 to 2014 or so including a Canadian Super-Senior title). We watched the famous game 3 of Canada vs USSR in 1987 on it at the Jays game - my brother-in-law got us amazing tickets behind home plate so we had to go, but everyone around us was watching the hockey game with us. It was an amazing experience. The crowd going nuts whenever Canada scored totally confusing the players and coaches. Lots of fun! The scoreboard at the Ex was so poor it couldn't have shown even a photo from the game, let alone video (it was ugly whenever they tried). Very different time.
Gerry - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 09:40 PM EST (#426476) #
I'm with magpie. The 4 GIDP seemed wrong to me.
JohnL - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 09:55 PM EST (#426477) #
John Northey - that's a hell of a small TV! Re: your other comments: yup, that Exhibition Stadium video screen was pretty much useless!

I also have a favourite hockey/baseball memory of 1987 though. I'd grown up as a big Leafs' fan in the late 50s & 60s (got into their dressing room twice - autographs by all the Stanley Cup teams of Bower, Mahovolich, Kelly, Horton, Stanley, etc, etc), but by 1987, was leaning away from hockey to baseball.

One night, May 3 ,(I had to look it up), I decided I would split my TV viewing between the Blue Jays & Leafs. Although it was Game 7 for the Leafs (vs Detroit), and just an early season Jays game, as time went on, I realized I couldn't care less about the Leafs, and just stiuck with the Jays' game. I've never watched another hockey game since.
ISLAND BOY - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 09:59 PM EST (#426478) #
The Athletic had 3 articles around New Years highlighting the odd things that happened in the 2022 season. I wrote some down and thought they'd fit in this section.

Strange injuries:

1) Zack Plesac --Last year fractured his right thumb " aggressively opening his shirt".
--This year broke his little finger punching the mound after giving up a home run August 27.

2) Angel's reliever Archie Bradley -- hurt during a brawl, not by throwing or receiving a punch but rather by falling while climbing over the dugout railing and breaking his elbow.

Honorable Mention : Yankees reliever Arnoldis Chapman who suffered an infection after getting a tattoo.

Strange But True

Only 3 no-hitters thrown in MLB playoff history
1) Don Larsen for Yankees in 1956 World Series ( perfect game)
2) Roy Halladay for Phillies in 2010 NLDS
3) Houston -- combination of 4 pitchers in 2022 World Series final over Philadelphia
-- Last two in Citizen's Bank Park and Dusty Baker was the manager for the visiting team both times.
-- There have been two no-hitters in post season play at Citizen's Bank park but no regular season no-hitters in 19 years there.

Houston pitchers threw 2 immaculate innings ( 9 pitches) twice in the same game to the same 3 Texas batters.
--The Rangers hadn't had an imaculate inning against them since April 29, 1990, a total of 5060 games, then had two against them in the same game.

This one hurts. Blue Jay's regular season record in the last 10 years in games they led by 7 runs or more in the 6th inning or later 149-1.
Seattle Mariner's regular season record all-time in games trailing by 7 runs or more in 6th inning or later 3-239.
Of course we know that the Jays lost in the last game of the 2022 season after leading by 7 runs in the 6th inning, but do we remember that they won the first game of the season by coming back from being 7 runs down to beat the Texas Rangers?

Brian Serven of the Colorado Rockies, on Mother's Day, fouled off the first pitch of his first MLB at-bat and it was caught by a fan sitting near Serven's mother who then gave the ball to her.

Jacb deGromm made 38 starts for the Mets in 3 years there and only gave up 4 earned runs or more once, last year to the Oakland A's to whom he surrendered 5 runs in 4 innings. The A's were the worst offensive team in 100 years in 2022, defined as the first team to hit.216 or less, having an OBP of .280 or worse, and scored less than 600 runs, the first team to do so since the 1910 Chicago White Stockings.

In a blowout, Ray's position player Brett Philips pitched in the 8th inning against LA Angels Anthony Rondon who had made 4,258 plate appearances as a right handed hitter. Rondon switched and batted left-handed for the first time ever-- and hit a home run.

Amazing stat from the Blue Jays 28-5 beat down of the Boston RedSox. No team had ever put up 28 runs in a road game, had a home run cycle ( 4 run homer, 3 run homer, 2 run homer, 1 run homer), hit an inside-the-park home run, and had any player have 6 hits in a 9 inning game all in the same season. The Jays did it all in one night!

On April 23, 2022, the Chicago Cubs blanked the Pittsburgh Pirates 21-0 at Wrigley Field. The last 21-0 game at Wrigley wasn't by the Cubs, or even their opponent, but rather by the NFL Chicago Bears who beat the Green Bay Packers 21-0 on Nov.5, 1944. The Bears played their last game at Wrigley in 1970. ( I always thought that Wrigley was a baseball only field.)
christaylor - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 10:52 PM EST (#426479) #
If we're going strange but true... Roy Halladay had his no-no HR caught by Dave Stieb. Total hat tip to the youTube doc but if we get to arbitrarily define rare... then that's happened once.
JohnL - Sunday, January 29 2023 @ 11:13 PM EST (#426481) #

I never witnessed a no-hitter. But I was at 3 games where the Jays broke one up in the 9th.

May 10, 1989. Key vs Mark Langston of the Mariners. Bob Brenly double, Jr Felix & Geo. Bell singles gave Jimy Williams his last Blue Jays win.

Sep 28, 1992. Devon White gets the only hit off Frank Viola/Red Sox. Jays lose, but win World Series. Good trade-off.

April 1995. Last exhibition game of the spring, at SkyDome, a make-it-up-to-the-fans-for-the-1994-strike game. Jays get 2 hits & a HBP. Lose the game, finish in last.

I also once gave a ticket to a co-worker who got to witness Dave Stewart no-hit the Jays.
Leaside Cowboy - Monday, January 30 2023 @ 12:08 PM EST (#426485) #
June 24th, 2008: the Blue Jays score 10 runs (all earned) against Reds' starter Bronson Arroyo, who completed just 1+ inning.

A starter with 1 inning pitched (or less) and surrendering 10+ earned runs. I think it was 1 of 10 such games in history.

Cito returned to Toronto as the new manager that night. I was only disappointed that he did not make a mound visit, so the crowd could properly welcome him back.

Cracka - Monday, January 30 2023 @ 01:19 PM EST (#426487) #
I'm fascinated by forfeits. They were quite common in the early years of baseball, but only five times in the expansion era. Four of them were related to some memorable ballpark theme or promotion: "RFK Final Game" (1971); "10 cent beer night" (1974); "Disco Demolition Night" (1979); and "Baseball giveaway night" (1995). The lone exception is the "Earl Weaver Tarp Incident" at Exhibition Stadium in 1977. Not sure if we will ever see another one? Beer is way more expensive, giveaways aren't projectiles, and security is much tighter.
soupman - Monday, January 30 2023 @ 05:19 PM EST (#426490) #
Just one Jay on Law's top 100.

"Tiedemann went undrafted out of high school in 2020, then went to junior college and ended up a third-round pick of the Jays in 2021. His velocity started to creep up as soon as instructional league. He topped out at 97-98 mph in 2022, although he tapered off over the course of the season and was sitting 93-94 when I saw him in September at Double-A Somerset, when the Jays had him on a strict three-inning limit to manage his workload. When fully healthy, he’s got power stuff, with big horizontal break to the slider that makes it a weapon against left- and right-handed batters, and an above-average changeup that he will need more as he gets to Triple A and the majors. He has a tough delivery to repeat, starting on the extreme first-base end of the rubber and never quite getting online, so locating to his glove side is a challenge. If he can develop his command and control — which might mean getting him more online to the plate — he has front-line starter potential. There’s also reliever risk here, although in that role he’d probably be an elite, 35-40 percent strikeout rate pitcher."
Petey Baseball - Monday, January 30 2023 @ 07:33 PM EST (#426491) #
Leaside to your point about Cito: I was in a bar in Huntsville, Ontario that summer when the news broke they had fired Gibby and hired Cito back. I still think that's the most shocked I've ever been in reaction to a Jays transcation, nay, perhaps the entirely of my sports fandom.

It just came so out of left field. Everyone knew JP and Gibby were pals so it seemed logical to assume the manager would stay, but it wasn't entirely a surprise. Then it was revealed it was Ricciardi's to replace him with Cito when it was assumed it was Godfrey or an ownership. Yeah, wow.
Leaside Cowboy - Monday, January 30 2023 @ 08:58 PM EST (#426492) #
The Level of Excellence. I wonder how that will be incorporated with the renovations?

I submit that Cito's name deserves to be alongside Jackie Robinson on the banner.
Glevin - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 11:13 AM EST (#426493) #
"Just one Jay on Law's top 100."

As I'd expect. Hopefully one of the guys in the low minors (Barreia, Toman, most likely but not only possibilites) can take a big step up.
ISLAND BOY - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 11:30 AM EST (#426494) #
I think Gabriel Martinez is another possibility.
Glevin - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 11:53 AM EST (#426495) #
"I think Gabriel Martinez is another possibility."

Absolutely. Probably next best bet but someone like Brown, Pinto, or Kasevich could also take a big step forward. Also, pitchers, some we may not have ever heard of, could come out of nowhere. Gain some miles on the fastball, etc...
uglyone - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 01:32 PM EST (#426498) #
I think we just signed Chad Green.

If he's healthy, he's a very good reliever.

2yr stats:

* RP Romano (30): 125gms, 51era-, 1.9war65
* RP Green (32): 81gms, 73era-, 1.6war65
* RP Swanson (29): 90gms, 59era-, 1.5war65
* RP Cimber (32): 149gms, 63era-, 0.9war65
* RP Bass (35): 143gms, 65era-, 0.8war65
* RP Mayza (31): 124gms, 78era-, 0.7war65
* RP Pop (26): 85gms, 88era-, 0.5war65
* RP Garcia (32): 123gms, 90era-, 0.5war65
* RP Richards (30): 115gms, 110era-, 0.1war65
uglyone - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 01:34 PM EST (#426499) #

Source: Chad Green in agreement on a deal with the Toronto Blue Jays.

— Michael Marino (@MarinoMLB) January 31, 2023
uglyone - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 01:48 PM EST (#426502) #

Blue Jays deal with Chad Green is $8.5m over two years, with options for '25 and '26, per source.

— Shi Davidi (@ShiDavidi) January 31, 2023
uglyone - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 01:50 PM EST (#426504) #
One more good bench add now please.
Gerry - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 01:52 PM EST (#426505) #
Green had Tommy John surgery in June. He is a possible late season addition, more of a 2024 signing.
uglyone - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 02:02 PM EST (#426507) #
that seems pessimistic.

he had surgery on like June 1 and its usually about a 12mos recovery time.

I just found this TJ spreadsheet ( and the most recent recovery times have been 8mos, 12, 12, 14, 11, 10, 13, 14, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 11....

All those recovery times have him back this year with plenty of time to spare.
uglyone - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 02:09 PM EST (#426510) #

Source confirms: Free-agent reliever Chad Green to Blue Jays on 2-year, $8.5M deal. Second year is conditional player option that Green can exercise if Jays decline 3-year club option. If both decline, Jays get 2-year club option at higher AAV. First: @MarinoMLB, @ShiDavidi.

— Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) January 31, 2023
uglyone - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 02:16 PM EST (#426512) #

Creative contract, per sources.
- Green gets $2.25m in '23.
- Jays option on 24-27 for $27m/3 w up to $1m in bonuses
-- If declined, Green has option for 24 at $6.25m w up to $2m in bonuses
-- If Green declines, Jays have $21m/2yr option on 24-25 w up to $1m in bonuses

— Shi Davidi (@ShiDavidi) January 31, 2023
uglyone - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 02:31 PM EST (#426514) #
uglyone - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 02:44 PM EST (#426515) #
greenfrog - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 02:50 PM EST (#426516) #
Guess the Jays learned a thing or two from their experience with Kirby Yates.
Glevin - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 03:01 PM EST (#426517) #
Nice pickup. He's great when healthy. If he isn't, it's a short deal and Jays can move on. End of year, Jays bullpen could be Romano, Green, Garcia, Swanson, Bass, Mayza, Cimber, and long man with Pearson, Zulueta, Pop, Richards, and others as options.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 04:27 PM EST (#426518) #
Green is an excellent reliever when he's healthy. From 2017 to 2021, he had a 7.0 WAR, 2.86 ERA (2.96 FIP), 11.67 K/9, and 2.00 BB/9 in 301 innings. Seems like a solid high upside/low risk type of deal for the team. The structure of the deal is strange, though. Sounds like after the 2023 season, the Jays will have a team option for 3yr/$27M, which if turned down will become a 2024 player option for Green at $6.25 million, and if that also gets turned down, then it goes back to a team option at 2yrs/$21M. It's going to come down to whether Green comes back in time to pitch meaningful games in 2023 and whether he looks like his old self which will determine what happens with those options.

The bullpen is looking pretty good at the moment, especially the depth.
jerjapan - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 05:34 PM EST (#426519) #
Green was my top value signing left.

I like the competition for spots up and down the depth chart, and the green injury gives us a chance to rotate guys through that 8th slot.

I’m not even sure richards gets a spot.
greenfrog - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 06:08 PM EST (#426520) #
Orelvis is on Law’s list of 10 prospects who just missed the top 100. He thinks it’s “way too early” to give up on him, given his young age. He mentioned that Martinez played above-average defense at third base in 2022. If he can improve his plate discipline, his stock could really take off (I recognize that the hit tool is probably the hardest tool to improve through development).
Mike Green - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 06:33 PM EST (#426521) #
The Blue Jays keep only the best Greens around.
John Northey - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 07:46 PM EST (#426522) #
I like this deal for Green - no real risk - just a 40 man spot from now until spring, then if he works out woohoo, if not and he decides to stick around he costs the team $6.25 mil in '24 plus the $2.25 for this year = $8.5 mil total. Risk is the money, reward is a high end late inning reliever for up to 3 1/2 years. Not bad. Puts Richards on notice that he is at risk of being dumped mid-season, same for the rest of the non-Romano/Swanson/Garcia relievers. If he makes a full comeback the pen in the playoffs could be a massive asset. Plus this weakens the Yankees as he was in their pen.

Still would like a LH reliever added (Andrew Chafin would be nice), and a RH OF (Robbie Grossman), but this is a very good move.

Speaking of relievers - Mariners claimed Tayler Saucedo from the Mets. Plus Ryan Goins is now a minor league Royal after spending 2 years in Atlanta's minors.
greenfrog - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 07:53 PM EST (#426523) #
Shawn Green
Chad Green
Dasan Brown
Bud Black
Devon White
Mitch White

The Jays have had a broad spectrum of talent over the years.
Petey Baseball - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 08:39 PM EST (#426524) #
Jays getting creative...Bullpen so expensive at trade deadline...Ergo, acquire a guy who should be healthy right around that time.
Gerry - Tuesday, January 31 2023 @ 10:55 PM EST (#426528) #
Matt Gage has been DFA'd to make room for Green.
Jonny German - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 05:23 AM EST (#426529) #
If Green makes a full recovery this deal will likely be 3 years $23.25M or 4 years $29.25M, plus $1M in bonuses. Either way I believe that's the second-biggest contract the Jays have ever given to a reliever.
Magpie - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 06:20 AM EST (#426530) #
Jays getting creative...

My thought as well. I don't think I remember an arrangement like that - a team option to a player option if that's declined to a second team option if that's declined?
Magpie - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 06:55 AM EST (#426531) #
I suspect we've reached that time in off-season roster building when we're pretty much done. For the moment. There's simply not much left out there. I guess there's Andrew Chafin, who I assume is waiting to see who's going to guarantee him $20 million or so. (The Mets, surely?) Can't think of anyone else I'd offer more than a minor league deal.

Just for the moment. In the meantime we're going to have spring training "roster competitions" for those last roster spots. Everyone will really be waiting to see how rosters fill out in the spring and just who gets cut loose as we get closer to the regular season.
Jonny German - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 07:49 AM EST (#426532) #
In the next couple weeks (when pitchers and catchers report?) teams will be able to place players on the 60-day IL. That will open up room on the 40-man roster for several teams and may get a little action going with the remaining free agents. For the Jays it'll be Ryu and Green to the 60-day, and for my money they could very much use a Robbie Grossman.

Besides Chafin, Matt Moore and Zack Britton are also lefty relievers that could help the Jays.
greenfrog - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 07:59 AM EST (#426533) #
The Jays now have a nice group of players who might be able to contribute later in the season: Ryu, Green, Tiedemann, Zulueta. Maybe also Barger, if he keeps hitting the way he did last year. Lopez and Horwitz are two other potential contributors.
85bluejay - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 08:40 AM EST (#426534) #
Brendan Donovan does give me some hope for Otto Lopez.
jerjapan - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 08:57 AM EST (#426535) #
Dropping Gage makes me think we might add another lefty. Thornton and Hatch are holding their breathe. I hope he clears but doubt it ….

Next lefty up is, uhh, Brandon Eisert?

Clearly, They are prioritizing flexibility on the 40 man. they could’ve waited to sign the green deal and kept gage.
bpoz - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 11:04 AM EST (#426536) #
Romano and Mayza are the only 2 home grown bullpen arms. Hopefully we get more.

Atkins has had to trade to strengthen our pitching. If the farm provides some help, Atkins would not have to scramble to add via trades at the deadline. Would be very different if we traded pitching at the deadline. We already traded Max Castillo.
Cracka - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 11:07 AM EST (#426537) #
Jeff Ware has been named bullpen coach ("Assistant Pitching Coach – Bullpen") replacing Matt Buschmann. He took over as Buffalo's manager last year after Candaele joined the big team. In keeping with the Unusual Occurrences topic theme, I'll offer the following: Only 3 pitchers in minor league history surrendered home runs to NBA Hall-of-Famers Michael Jordan... and Jeff Ware is one of them (pitching for Knoxville in 1994). And the next day Ware asked Jordan to autograph a few baseballs... not sure if kept them, but they'd be worth a mint today.
uglyone - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 11:45 AM EST (#426538) #
fangraphs finally added Zips to their Steamer/zips combined projections. Here's how we look:

* RF Springer (33): 595pa, 135wrc+, 4.7war650
* SS Bichette (25): 658pa, 128wrc+, 4.4war650
* 1B Guerrero (24): 637pa, 154wrc+, 4.7war650
* DH Kirk (24): 496pa, 133wrc+, 5.2war650
* LF Varsho (26): 573pa, 123wrc+, 4.2war650
* 3B Chapman (30): 665pa, 119wrc+, 4.5war650
* C Jansen (28): 467pa, 118wrc+, 4.0war650
* 2B Espinal (28): 511pa, 104wrc+, 3.1war650
* CF Kiermaier (33): 434pa, 87wrc+, 2.6war650

* DH Belt (35): 364pa, 122wrc+, 2.1war650
* UT Biggio (28): 210pa, 106wrc+, 1.9war650
* UT Merrifield (34): 511pa, 95wrc+, 1.4war650

* SP Gausman (32): 31gms, 3.56era, 3.5war32
* SP Manoah (25): 32gms, 3.74era, 3.0war32
* SP Bassitt (34): 31gms, 3.81era, 2.6war32
* SP Berrios (28): 31gms, 4.26era, 1.7war32

* SW Kikuchi (32): 42gms, 4.17era, 0.7war32
* SW Ryu (36): 14gms, 3.79era, 0.3war32
* SW White (28): 42gs, 4.38era, 0.3war32

* RP Romano (30): 66gms, 3.52era, 0.8war65
* RP Swanson (29): 65gms, 3.77era, 0.6war65
* RP Bass (35): 62gms, 3.76era, 0.3war65
* RP Mayza (31): 57gms, 3.55era, 0.2war65
* RP Cimber (32): 60gms, 3.98era, 0.1war65
* RP Garcia (32): 70gms, 4.05era, 0.1war65
* RP Green (32): 20gms, 3.77era, 0.0war65
* RP Richards (30): 54gms, 4.06era, 0.0war65
* RP Pop (26): 46gms, 4.07era, 0.0war65

- the projections are very much in love with our position players

- they are only lukewarm on our starting pitching

- they seem pretty pessimistic about the bullpen - though this may be just the way projections treat relievers, I havent checked the other teams
scottt - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 11:55 AM EST (#426539) #
They obviously didn't think highly of Gage.
They seem to value experience in the pen, which I find strange.
Young guys are as likely to be dominant as older guys who have been through rough spots.

jerjapan - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 12:58 PM EST (#426540) #
Not sure they think more or less highly of Gage than Hatch, Thornton and Lukes, off the top of my head. 

It's all mlb depth chart and org depth for those last few spots on the 40 man - which is how they should be using those spots. 

over/under on how many transactions we see till the games start to count?
Lylemcr - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 01:59 PM EST (#426541) #
Zach Britton is still available
Glevin - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 02:08 PM EST (#426542) #
"They obviously didn't think highly of Gage.
They seem to value experience in the pen, which I find strange.
Young guys are as likely to be dominant as older guys who have been through rough spots."

Gage is 29 with middling success in the minors. Green has been the 8th most valuable reliever in baseball over the past 5 years despite missing almost the entire year last year. I don't find it strange the Jays would prefer the latter over the former.
jerjapan - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 03:01 PM EST (#426543) #
Gage lost out to Thornton and hatch and empty 40 man spots, not green
Glevin - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 03:16 PM EST (#426544) #
"Gage lost out to Thornton and hatch and empty 40 man spots, not green"

Who cares really? I mean, like Gage isn't any good and doesn't throw hard even. Hatch and Thornton at least can work as mop-up men or pitch innings in Buffalo.

soupman - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 05:56 PM EST (#426545) #
just on the eye test - WAR huh good god, y'all. what is it good for?

Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 07:21 PM EST (#426546) #
Unusual occurrences. Home run records can be peculiar due to asterisks and the evolution of baseball.

I find it interesting that only Álex Rodríguez (25) broke Lou Gehrig's (23) record for most grand slams. Manny Ramírez (21) is third.

Likewise, Babe Ruth (70 / 72) still leads the record books for most 2-homer / multi-homer performances. Barry Bonds (67 / 71) is second.

Murderer's Row was very real!

John Northey - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 07:33 PM EST (#426547) #
The 3 LH relievers who are being talked about - Zack Britton is interesting due to his recovering from injury - last threw over 20 IP in a season in 2019. He'd be low on my list unless he'd take a deal like Green did. Andrew Chafin has been solid for awhile but can be wild (3.5 BB/9 lifetime, but 2.7 over the past 2 years). Matt Moore is the 3rd LH reliever people are talking about - but is wilder (4.7 BB/9 past 2 years) but also K's more (10.1 K/9 last year).

In truth the more I look the less I like of those 3. Odds are they'd take Richards slot (Romano-Swanson-Garcia-Bass-Cimber-Mayza I'd rank higher than Richards, and Kikuchi/White will be #5 starter/long man in pen). So really there isn't much room right now. Especially with Green coming mid-season. In truth for the pen the Jays need to sign top AAAA guys who can fill in for 2 weeks when someone gets hurt now. If one of those 3 falls into their laps, so be it (ie: for sub $5 mil) but otherwise I don't see the point as odds are they'd only be marginally more effective than Richards, if that.

Similar for the OF situation now - there are good guys there but will they really provide a lot more value than using Merrifield in the OF while Espinal/Biggio share 2B? Maybe, but I doubt it would amount to much. Again, fall into the lap at a good price, why not, but otherwise using Nathan Lukes as the 5th OF or Otto Lopez as a backup everything isn't bad for that 26th man slot. Ideally they'd be used about as often as Zimmer was last year. A pure hitter who could hit for KK late isn't a bad idea but how often will that make a big difference? Not often unless they are like a prime Cliff Johnson (had the record for pinch hit home runs for awhile at 20) or Matt Stairs (holds the current record of 23).

At this stage I mainly see spring invites/AAAA guys coming in along with kids from the minors. Hard to see the point of spending a ton on more bench strength. As I said, unless it falls into the Jays laps. I guarantee they are in touch with the agents for guys still out there.

I guess the big question is 'what if' on injuries. C: Kirk/Jansen then...? 1B: Vlad/Belt/Biggio/Horwitz 2B: Merrifield/Espinal/Biggio/Lopez/... SS: Bo/Espinal/Lopez/Barger/Orelvis Martinez 3B: Chapman/Espinal/Biggio/Lopez/Barger/Orelvis Martinez CF: KK/Varsho/Springer/Merrifield/Lukes while LF/RF after Varsho/Springer is Merrifield/Biggio/Lukes SP: Manoah-Gausman-Bassitt-Berrios-Kikuchi-White-Thompson-Pearson-Hatch-Thornton-...-Tiedemann-Robberse-Zulueta RP: Romano-Swanson-Garcia-Bass-Cimber-Mayza-Richards-White-Green (mid season)-Pop-Pearson-Thornton-Zulueta-etc. (lots of etc.)

Catcher is the only area where injury issues are a total question mark it seems. NRIs at catcher are Stevie Berman [734 OPS in AAA last year at age 27], Rob Brantly [8 yrs ML experience 68 OPS+ over 456 PA, classic all defense AAAA catcher], Zach Britton [826 OPS in A+/AA last year], Phil Clarke [662 OPS in AA last year], Andres Sosa [801 OPS in A+ last year] (you always invite a ton of catchers as you need them to work out the pitchers along with coaches and others). I don't see Varsho going behind the plate outside of emergency in-game situations. IE: if Jansen or Kirk get hurt he won't go back there except for during that game. I suspect Brantly is the emergency guy who'd get 2 weeks up while Kirk or Jansen recover from an injury, with Berman the #2 guy on that list while the Jays hope at least one of Britton, Clarke, or Sosa can develop into a solid hitting catcher.
bpoz - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 07:52 PM EST (#426548) #
Agreed John N about C depth in case of an injury.

H Danner can catch but as the full time backup (40%)? You mentioned all the others. None is a proven ML hitter. D is more important anyway. Danner probably has the best arm.
John Northey - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 07:56 PM EST (#426549) #
Wow, if those projections are right the Jays could have 7 hitters with 4+ fWAR which would easily be a team record. 3 in 2022 (Chapman-Bo-Springer), 4 in 2021 (Vlad-Semien-Bo-Teoscar), just Donaldson in 2016, 4 in 2015 (Donaldson-Bautista-Encarnacion-Martin), 4 in 1993 (Olerud-Alomar-White-Molitor, 2 in 1992 (Alomar-White), 3 in 1991 (White-Carter-Alomar), 3 in 1990 (McGriff-Fernandez-Gruber), 1 in '89 while winning the division (McGriff), 3 in '88 (McGriff-Gruber-Fernandez), 3 in '87 (Bell-Fernandez-Barfield), 2 in '85 (Barfield-Fernandez). All other years were 1 or 2 at most with many at 0. So never more than 4 (2021, 2015, 1993) Kind of surprised we didn't see more in 1985 given the 99 wins, or 1987 when the team seemed unstoppable until the final week.

In 2021 the closest to 4 without reaching was George Springer at 2.5, in 2015 it was Kevin Pillar at 3.7 (sooo close). 1993 was Tony Fernandez at 2.8 (over a full season he might have reached but was traded for part way through) - Joe Carter was just a 2.0 but that home run was the biggest positive in Jays history and didn't count towards his overall fWAR.
John Northey - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 08:00 PM EST (#426550) #
Don't see Danner as a backup catcher given he is now a reliever. He'd be an emergency catcher if ever called up though I suspect. His last time behind the plate was in 2019, kind of surprised that after a 12 HR season he switched to pitching. But if he makes it as a pitcher then it was the right move for him.
scottt - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 08:10 PM EST (#426551) #
Gage had only 2 earned runs in 13 innings but lost out to guys like Banda, Lawrence and Romo.
I think it's the experience rather than the results that brought Dolis in the first place.
Bryan Baker only got 1 inning, but Carl Edwards Jr. got into 6 games.
Chatwood, Phelps, Tommy Milone, Jacob Barnes. They seem to like gambling on guys with long roadmaps who are coming off though years.  (Phelps was great, but he was coming off a horrible time in Philadelphia.
The other guys haven't fared so well.

Chad Green, on the other hand, is on an other level.
He's still young. He's never had a bad year. He's pitched in the division.
Nothing wrong with that move. 

Green will go on the 60IL and they might use Gage's spot for a waiver claim.

scottt - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 08:14 PM EST (#426552) #
I don't expect them to try it, but if Danner catches enough in blowouts, he could become a 2-way player and a reliever who counts as a position player.

Most teams are too afraid of pitchers getting injured on the field now which is fine, but pitchers injure themselves just throwing the ball.

John Northey - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 08:38 PM EST (#426553) #
scottt - love the concept but the question is can Danner be a good enough hitter to justify it? He hasn't swung a bat in a game since 2019 and that was in A ball. Two way players are cool and I'd love it if he could be good enough to do it, but the requirement is at least 20 MLB innings pitched. Appearing in at least 20 MLB games as a position player or designated hitter, with at least 3 plate appearances in each of the 20 games. It is the 3 PA in 20+ games that would be hard for him to do unless he was an excellent backup catcher which I doubt given his limited time. I'd love to be wrong, but at this point I see him as a pure reliever with the bonus of being a '3rd catcher' for emergencies.
Magpie - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 09:20 PM EST (#426554) #
I think it's the experience rather than the results that brought Dolis in the first place.

Both probably. But to be clear, it was experience and results in Japan. He hadn't pitched in the majors for seven years, and he hadn't pitched very much or very well when he had.
John Northey - Wednesday, February 01 2023 @ 11:20 PM EST (#426555) #
In the end Dolis was the right guy at the right time in 2020. He flopped in 2021 but without him in 2020 no playoff I suspect.
John Northey - Friday, February 03 2023 @ 06:47 PM EST (#426556) #
Not sure if many of you listen to the podcast "Deep Left Field" by Mike Wilner - quite good, strongly recommend. This week he interviewed Jesse Barfield which was fun to listen to, but a bit sad when he said why he was traded - he asked to be after twice being disrespected by Jimy Williams, Williams benched Barfield in '88 (which he understood) but didn't tell Jesse he was being benched for a series until asked during game 3. Then the next year he did the same thing, benching but not talking about it and that was the last straw. Barfield asked his agent to talk with Gillick about getting him out of Toronto as that was just too much, but he didn't want it in the media due to his fondness of Toronto's fans and most of the front office/coaches. It really helps explain why the '86-early '89 teams did worse than expected - the #1 job of a manager is communication imo, and Williams clearly failed miserably at it.

A few good stories too - like how as a teen he hit a ball through a fence when the Jays scout was at the game which is a big reason he was signed (he hit it off Bill Gullickson (future Expo)). Lots of other good stuff too.
soupman - Friday, February 03 2023 @ 10:05 PM EST (#426557) #
I think you’re into something. Didn’t Wilner used to claim up and down that emotions never impact play on the field? I’m not sure he’d share the same analysis- curious if he weighed in on the topic.
JohnL - Friday, February 03 2023 @ 10:16 PM EST (#426558) #
"the podcast 'Deep Left Field' by Mike Wilner - quite good, strongly recommend."
Unfortunately, it features Mike Wilner. Plus I'm not a podcast guy at all. The only time I braved listening to DLF was when John Lott was interviewed.

For all his energy & dedication, i really find Wilner - on air or online - very, very hard to take.
John Northey - Saturday, February 04 2023 @ 02:20 AM EST (#426559) #
Different strokes for different folks. I quite enjoy his podcast with the interviews with players, past and present, and with coaches both major league and minor league. Nice to listen to when driving around. Does anyone else here listen to any baseball podcasts? Wilner's is the only one I have right now, but it'd be fun to have others on the list for days when I have to go a bit further or traffic is bad. My car has unlimited internet for radio which is very nice (2013 Tesla Model S - bought used and love it even though I can't stand the guy who runs it).
Jonny German - Saturday, February 04 2023 @ 04:19 AM EST (#426560) #
Unfortunately, it features Mike Wilner.

Exactly. He was okay as a play-by-play guy and he does interview lots of interesting people… but he’s just insufferable.

There are two very good Jays podcasts that I know of - Artificial Turf Wars and At The Letters.
85bluejay - Saturday, February 04 2023 @ 07:52 AM EST (#426561) #

3 podcasts that I recommend -

- Nothing personal with former Marlins President David Samson who is terrific - about sports in general

-Redlegnation is about cincinnati reds baseball and gives a funny perspective of another team - critical of Reds ownership

- Amazin' Avenue for New York Mets - A pod of their own - women talking about Mets baseball amongst other things - a different perspective.

Cracka - Saturday, February 04 2023 @ 10:38 AM EST (#426562) #
Does anyone else here listen to any baseball podcasts?

Yes! I highly, highly recommend Ricky Romero's "Let's Go with Ricky Ro" podcast; the newest episodes have Josh Thole as a co-host, but some of the older episodes are absolute gems (Noe Ramirez, coach John Schnieder, Alex (Drop) Andreopoulos, JP Arencibia, Sergio Romo, Vernon Wells). He's on hiatus, but there are over 80 episodes to choose from. John Gibbons started a podcast last fall - it wasn't very good, but the two-part episode with AA was very interesting. I also listen sometimes to the R2C2 podcast - I have a ton of respect for CC Sabathia and he gets some 1st class guests.
Magpie - Saturday, February 04 2023 @ 11:56 AM EST (#426563) #
Plus I'm not a podcast guy at all.

Me neither. I just don't want to spend an hour and change listening to anybody talk about anything. Too many new records to catch up on.

I don't mind looking at a transcript, if available. I can read a transcript in ten minutes.
JohnL - Saturday, February 04 2023 @ 12:30 PM EST (#426564) #
I'm with Magpie on the podcast thing. Reading an article or transcript, I can skim or skip as I feel like. I have better things to do for an hour.

And back to our old friend Wilner; someone mentioned his play-by-play. One thing I hate about some broadcasters is their reliance on yelling - screaming occasionally - to convey excitement or drama. I wish they could have enrolled in the Vin Scully school of broadcasting. Wilner was one of the worst for that offence.
uglyone - Saturday, February 04 2023 @ 01:01 PM EST (#426565) #
yeah I'm with you guys - podcasts take an hour to say something you can read in a few minutes. and the podcasters themselves are rarely charming (or expert) enough to make it worth it.

Joe - Saturday, February 04 2023 @ 01:33 PM EST (#426566) #
My #1 baseball podcast recommendation is always Effectively Wild, hosted by Ben Lindbergh (ex-Baseball Prospectus, Grantland, currently of The Ringer) and Meg Rowley (managing editor of Fangraphs). It's exactly the right mix of light-hearted and informative, and generally very funny.

I understand everybody else's views on reading vs listening, because it's exactly how I feel about watching a video vs reading an article, but I listen to podcasts a lot because 1) I can multitask: they're perfect for chores and travelling of any sort, and 2) I think it's impossible to capture the humour and joy of listening to people with good chemistry have an engaging conversation in text form.

Honestly, I've got very little time for purely-informative podcasts: things I listen to regularly have to be at least a little funny and lighthearted or I would prefer to read it.

Steve02 - Saturday, February 04 2023 @ 02:07 PM EST (#426567) #
I'm of the same mind of the broadcasters and their yelling to convey excitement/drama. Wilner did which I didn't like but I found him alright otherwise. I find Wagner very much his equal in this regard - to me he sounds so angry every time the Jays hit a home run. Actually I dislike Wagner's style so much I can't tune in - him using his own odd (to me, anyway) vocabulary grates me down too. I miss Jerry. Vin Scully was amazing.
Kasi - Saturday, February 04 2023 @ 05:05 PM EST (#426568) #
I both work at a computer and do workouts in my basement gym and I occasionally listen to podcasts while doing so. Good to have something that doesn’t require watching.
bpoz - Saturday, February 04 2023 @ 05:31 PM EST (#426569) #
I have been busy checking the prospect list of Scott Mitchell. I found he did good research for example C Carlos Vasquez "the left handed Gabriel Moreno".
vw_fan17 - Saturday, February 04 2023 @ 09:12 PM EST (#426570) #
Another "no podcasts" person. I can't really listen to anything when working (software) - I can't focus enough. And otherwise, such as exercising, I want something to watch, even partially. Leafs/Jays are good for that. You don't miss a crucial plot element if you can't pay attention for 30 seconds now and again. Plus, after-the-fact, skipping intermissions / breaks / commercials lets me condense a game into 60-75 minutes.

I'll watch playoff games live, but otherwise - 3+ hours to watch a game? I'm not 10 years old with no homework anymore..
Leaside Cowboy - Saturday, February 04 2023 @ 10:12 PM EST (#426571) #
I agree David Samson is terrific. I sheepishly confess that I like Jeff Blair and Kevin Barker. Freddie Coleman and Ian Fitzsimmons have the best show on ESPN radio. Jody McDonald (son of Joe McDonald) is the best host on CBS radio.

Joe Bowen and Jim Ralph broadcast Maple Leafs road games from a Toronto studio. Ben Wagner follows the same routine. I have a quite a quibble with this infernal practice by sinister telecom megacorps.

I would rather hear the television audio (live from the stadium) played over the radio. Argonauts and TFC games are broadcast this way. The Blue Jays were doing so for a while.

* * *

Dunedin reporting dates:

Thursday, February 16th - pitchers and catchers
Tuesday, February 21st - position players

" People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. "

grjas - Sunday, February 05 2023 @ 12:12 PM EST (#426572) #
Flipping through Fan Graphs depth charts by position (based on WAR) is interesting. Includes ratings of all players on the teams that play at least some innings at each position. Here are the rankings by position- within the majors (30 teams), within the ALE (6 teams):

Total team- 6,2

Catcher- 1,1
First- 3,1
Second- 18,4
SS- 7, 2
Third- 7,2
LF- 8,3
CF- 12, 2
RF- 6, 2
SP- 11, 3
RP- 16, 4

Random observations:
. Overall the team ranks well - second best in the division, 6th in baseball(and 3rd within the AL)
. FG is still not happy with our relievers, and of course second bas looks weak
. CF is a weakness across the ALE
. I think we are under-rated at 3rd and LF, and perhaps our pitching... at least by a bit... Rodon and Cole are at 9.2 vs Manoah and Gasuman at 6.2 which looks extreme
Petey Baseball - Sunday, February 05 2023 @ 02:34 PM EST (#426573) #
Wonder when they will announce who they hired in Pat Tabler's place. If it were a perfect world it'd be Dan and Buck for all 162 (or 158, minus the ones on Apple and Peacock). But with Buck's health and withShulman understandably allowed to partly choose his schedule, that's not what will happen. My guess they will hire someone younger and cheaper and we'll be left to experience the growing pains.
Petey Baseball - Sunday, February 05 2023 @ 02:50 PM EST (#426574) #
And count me in on the Wagner skeptics. He sounds a bit over anxious...a bit angry...a bit over-caffienated, perhaps? It's a weird delivery. It's gotta be hard not having a regular partner to add analysis and levity to a broadcast. I'm sure the brass at Sportsnet have strongly considered just simulcasting the TV feed. If it's Dan and Buck most of the time, I'm
fine with it.

dalimon5 - Sunday, February 05 2023 @ 03:18 PM EST (#426575) #
Bob Mcown Podcast (they dedicate it to baseball usually once a week and that's the episode I listen to). They always have Morosi, Shulman, Davidi or Gibbons on and sometimes they have newspaper curmudgeons on like Dave Perkins, Simmons and hockey now baseball guy Dave Hodge.

I listened to the podcast from Thursday today and found out about a Nolan Ryan doc on Netflix which I hasn't known about and watched it today. I also found out about how Cito helped Bautista become a better hitter.

The next best podcast I listen to is The Walkoff. It's relatively new but growing. I listen to it because they are starting to get better guests and because I get my news from them. I listen when I'm driving or getting ready for bed and I find it VERY rewarding to learn about news from sound rather than staring at a screen like before which was either my phone or computer. I love how I can turn the screen off and listen to podcasts so I'm disengaged from the electronics.

Cynicalguy - Sunday, February 05 2023 @ 04:46 PM EST (#426576) #
"Does anyone else here listen to any baseball podcasts?"

I like the Walkoff Podcast, particularly the ones where they are interviewing Jays prospects over the years like Joey Murray, Sem Robberse, Groshans, Kloffenstein....some are a couple of years old, but interesting in understanding the minor league lifestyle and insight on what goes when developing as prospects.
Mike Green - Tuesday, February 07 2023 @ 10:03 AM EST (#426577) #
Keith Law has his review of the Blue Jays top 20 prospects over at the Athletic. Highly recommended, despite some important differences of opinion.

Law has the issues right for the prospects. For me, this is more important than opinions about how likely the prospect is to overcome the issues. And there is welcome humour in the writing.
Joe - Tuesday, February 07 2023 @ 11:40 AM EST (#426578) #
Mike, there was some good humour, but also this groaner on Hayden Juenger:
The Jays really should call him up this year. After all, he’s not getting any Juenger.
I sighed so loudly.
Gerry - Tuesday, February 07 2023 @ 11:59 AM EST (#426579) #
I have been in touch with Keith and he graciously agreed to answer a few questions. Hopefully it will be up by Monday.
ISLAND BOY - Tuesday, February 07 2023 @ 12:07 PM EST (#426580) #
Yeah, that Juenger pun was a groaner. I thought it was a good list, but I'd only argue about Leo Jimenez being a bit high, especially ahead of Addison Barger. Here is the full list:

1) Ricky Tiedemann
2) Orelvis Martinez
3) Brandon Barriera
4) Tucker Toman
5) Sem Robberse
6) Yosver Zulueta
7) Hayden Juenger
8) Gabriel Martinez
9) Leo Jimenez
10) Addison Barger
11) Dasan Brown
12) Josh Kasevich
13) Cade Doughty
14) Adam Macko
15) Dahian Santos
16) Adrian Pinto
17) Manuel Beltre
18) Alex de Jesus
19) Otto Lopez
20) Rainer Nunez
bpoz - Tuesday, February 07 2023 @ 12:55 PM EST (#426581) #
I like Keith law's list.

Zulueta, Jeunger, Barger, Leo Jimenez and O Lopez all have a chance to graduate this year. Lopez and Leo Jimenez may not because I don't see Lopez getting to 150 ABs with the Jays ever really. He is a pinch runner and bench utility player. Jimenez is polished defensively so he is probably a good replacement if Bo gets injured. Of course Jimenez has to be healthy enough to get ABs in the minors.

I have T Morris, S Horowitz, Z Britton and Devonte Brown as #17,18,19 and 20. Morris and Horowitz should dominate AAA early. Britton should be in AAA soon. Devonte Brown impressed me and I expect him to get to AA this year.
uglyone - Tuesday, February 07 2023 @ 08:38 PM EST (#426582) #

Per sources, #BlueJays have now avoided arb with Bo Bichette on a multi-year deal.

Terms still unclear but sources said a three-year term was under active discussion this week.

— Ben Nicholson-Smith (@bnicholsonsmith) February 8, 2023
greenfrog - Tuesday, February 07 2023 @ 09:00 PM EST (#426583) #
If it’s a three-year contract, it would seem to be a way to have some cost certainty and avoid the acrimony of annual arbitration hearings — and thereby improve the odds of a future extension (however slight those odds might be).
John Northey - Tuesday, February 07 2023 @ 09:41 PM EST (#426584) #
Bo's 3 year deal has been confirmed via 2 sources now. An excellent thing for the team as it removes the potential ill feelings of an arbitration hearing for 3 years for Bo. I'm guessing it is around $35-40 million total for the 3 years. They now can start negotiating on years after that but probably nothing will happen until next winter at the earliest. Now to get Vlad signed for those 3 years and hopefully beyond.
uglyone - Tuesday, February 07 2023 @ 09:53 PM EST (#426585) #
Guess they found the sweet spot.
greenfrog - Tuesday, February 07 2023 @ 10:44 PM EST (#426586) #
It’s a tactical move. The front office has had a pretty good off-season, in my opinion. They’ve made a slew of creative short- and medium-term moves, but they’re also playing the long game.
bpoz - Wednesday, February 08 2023 @ 10:04 AM EST (#426587) #
The Jays have done a great job of keeping their plans secret IMO.

I did not see the Moreno trade coming. Atkins said he may keep all 3.

Teo trade. Bassitt, Belt & KK signings.

Exchanging the O for D in the OF reflects the stadium changes and the shifting changes which makes a lot of sense.
Parker - Wednesday, February 08 2023 @ 10:23 AM EST (#426588) #
Agreed, greenfrog. Not just the org-player acrimony, but now the team also won't have to try to explain each year to the casual fan why they're talking out of one side of their mouth about money not being a problem while having the optics of repeatedly trying to nickel & dime one of their best young players in arbitration. This is a great look for the team.
greenfrog - Wednesday, February 08 2023 @ 12:06 PM EST (#426589) #
Maybe the front office feels it needs more information before it decides whether to make a big offer to Bichette and/or VGJ. That information could include how well the team and the farm system perform this year, and what free agents are available to the Jays next off-season.
ISLAND BOY - Wednesday, February 08 2023 @ 12:11 PM EST (#426590) #
Also, in a couple of years the Jays will have a better idea of whether or not to extend Bo to a long term deal. ( I'm saying a couple because I don't think they would want to wait until the deal ends to make a decision) Does his defense continue to be an issue, or even get worse, prompting a move to second? Does his violent swings lead to injury, or the threat of injury as he gets older? Do the Jays win a World Series with Bo as a key contributor and the front office says, " Hey, let's resign Bo and go for more!" It remains to be seen.
85bluejay - Wednesday, February 08 2023 @ 12:23 PM EST (#426591) #
I am optimistic the jays will sign Vlad to a longterm deal - he's their golden boy - Pessimistic on extending Bo and I'm ok with that.
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, February 08 2023 @ 03:49 PM EST (#426592) #
All home spring games are going to be on Sportsnet.
grjas - Wednesday, February 08 2023 @ 04:05 PM EST (#426593) #
Agree on being hesitant with an LT contract for Bo. There has been a big difference between top contracts for second basemen and shortstops so far, and I’m not convinced Bo will be a serviceable shortstop through his 20s. To his credit, he has worked his tail off to get better at SS…but so far it hasn’t worked.

If he doesn’t improve but insists on staying there, it may be more effective to sign a very good hitting second basemen and a good defensive SS, and leverage the savings for other needs. And of course some of that May hopefully sourced through the minors.

We seemed to do just fine with Manny Lee at SS for 200 games in 92 and 93.
scottt - Wednesday, February 08 2023 @ 04:51 PM EST (#426594) #
Bo is an elite hitter for a shortstop, but might not be a shortstop long term.

I am not sure he plays better without the pressure of arbitration.
Cost certainty.

I think there will be no point of discussing contract with him for 3 years.
In the meanwhile, the Jays will continue to try to develop another good middle infielder.

Bo was a second round pick. Vlad was a record signing.
They were very different from the first day.

Magpie - Wednesday, February 08 2023 @ 05:16 PM EST (#426595) #
I’m not convinced Bo will be a serviceable shortstop through his 20s

If he's as serviceable as Derek Jeter, I figure that'll be good enough.

In my mind, Jeter is the parallel case, and by happy coincidence the year just past was the third season for each as the team's starting shortstop from Day One, it was the age 24 season for both guys, and they both posted an OPS+ of 127.

For Jeter this was a step forward. He'd improved his plate discipline, added a little more power. Bichette seems mostly to be be maintaining what he has, but in a baseball universe where offense is falling, this represents improvement as well.
JohnL - Wednesday, February 08 2023 @ 06:48 PM EST (#426596) #
A bit more about Sportsnet:
- All spring, season, & post-season games will have radio play-by-play available on and their app. A first. But it looks like Ben is alone again in the radio booth.

- On TV, Siddall will split time between colour & Blue Jays Central. Caleb Joseph also on BJC (I assume when Joe isn't.)

- Arden Zwelling replacing Arash.

And a qualification about Manuel Lee: of those 200 games he played at short in 92-93, The 72 games he played in 93 were for Texas. He only got one WS ring from Toronto.
Eephus - Wednesday, February 08 2023 @ 10:22 PM EST (#426597) #
We seemed to do just fine with Manny Lee at SS for 200 games in 92 and 93.

I wasn't exactly paying attention when it happened (being in preschool and all) but re-watching the 92 World Series a few times... geez... I'd much rather have had John McDonald up there as a hitter than Manny Lee. At least McDonald was a superb defender... I'm frankly astonished they won the thing with that 1992 version of Lee.

Eephus - Wednesday, February 08 2023 @ 10:37 PM EST (#426598) #
As for Bo... I don't get the hate. He isn't a good shortstop and his misplays do glare brightly... but I've seen worse (the carousel of shortstops the team rotated through from Alex Gonzalez to Reyes, for instance) and the dude can clearly hit. Like, really hit. It isn't pretty, sure, and Bo will swing at pitches Pillar-style to drive us nuts, but the eagerness to drive him far out of town or to second base (where we currently have three MLB quality players) seems hasty. Bo Bichettes don't grow on the bushes in your backyard, to amend a cliche.
Parker - Thursday, February 09 2023 @ 09:47 AM EST (#426599) #
Let's also not forget that Bo's not even supposed to BE here. His swing was way too noisy as a prospect, it was bound to get exposed at the higher minors. No? Well don't worry, MLB pitching is gonna make him look foolish pretty quickly. No? Rookie fluke; he'll collapse next year. No? He's still hitting like a guy on a HoF shortstop career path but a one-year sample of his D has been awful so he's not even REALLY a shortstop... think of how much less impressive that bat will look in LF, etc. NO.

I'm with Magpie - let's enjoy the fact that the Jays have a player whose career so far can legitimately be compared to Derek Jeter's.
JohnL - Thursday, February 09 2023 @ 10:17 AM EST (#426600) #
For sure, Lee was a terrible hitter & mediocre fielder as I remember, but he was a weird, two-way "star" on the last weekend of 1987 - the Jays Grand Collapse.

He wouldn’t have even been on the roster if Fernandez hadn’t been injured. In those 3 games in Detroit, the Jays managed only 3 extra base hits: a Lee double, Lee triple, and Lee HR.

Those were nicely balanced by his defensive work. A bad throw mid-game led to a Tiger run, which led to extra innings, which led to Trammel's game-winning hit, right through Manny's legs.

Ya win some, ya lose some.
Magpie - Thursday, February 09 2023 @ 10:18 AM EST (#426601) #
a player whose career so far can legitimately be compared to Derek Jeter's.

Through their age 24 seasons:

Year        G    PA    AB    R    H   2B  3B   HR  RBI  SB  CS   BB   SO  BAVG   OBP   SLG   OPS  OPS+    
Jeter    480  2147  1910  352  588   85  22   39  239  67  25  182  357  .308  .373  .437  .809  109   
Bichette  393  1727  1611  262  478  100   3   69  239  46  14  100  369  .297  .340  .491  .831  127

I think the historical record is pretty clear that you can win an awful lot of games with a shortstop who hits like that.
grjas - Thursday, February 09 2023 @ 11:58 AM EST (#426602) #
I doubt anyone on the site “hates” BB. He works his butt off, complains little, and does excellent work in the community.

IMHO the issue is the market has exploded when it comes to SS compensation. As a result, while BB could possibly be an outstanding second baseman- and provide more value to the team there-he would be paid more as a SS with a great bat and mediocre defence.
bpoz - Thursday, February 09 2023 @ 12:15 PM EST (#426603) #
I hear Bo's deal is $6mil, $11.5mil and $16mil. Fairly affordable for the Jays IMO.
greenfrog - Thursday, February 09 2023 @ 12:16 PM EST (#426604) #
Bo is an exceptional player, but will he be valuable through his age-38 season, as Jeter was? (Jeter was worth 3.3 WAR that season.) Most shortstops don’t have that type of longevity. This is something to consider if Bo is looking for a huge contract that runs through his late 30s.
Magpie - Thursday, February 09 2023 @ 12:33 PM EST (#426605) #
Most shortstops don’t have that type of longevity.

No kidding. Jeter's peak lasted twelve years (1998-2009), from age 24 through 35, and his durability and consistency during that period were likewise miraculous. Twelve years, and you can hardly tell one season from another.

Dude was a freak.
Mike Green - Thursday, February 09 2023 @ 01:38 PM EST (#426606) #
Except defensively.  Jeter's defensive career was strange.  He was an average defender at the beginning of his career until age 24, and then lost his first step (hence Pasta Diving Jeter) and was downright terrible as a shortstop for 10 years.  The Gold Gloves he won during those years were a total joke.  But then he worked on his mobility issues prior to the 2008 season and was almost average for four years from ages 34-37 (2008-11) before hip and ankle injuries finished him off.  It's important to bear in mind that while his defence was terrible, he continued to improve as a hitter and was great as a baserunner.  In mid-career (2001-2) while playing terrible defence, he went 59-6 stealing bases.  The odds are strongly against Bichette doing anything like that, but he might hit 40 homers one year. 

The BBRef most comparable shortstops for Bichette are Troy Tulowitzki (oh irony!), Corey Seager, Nomar Garciaparra, Ernie Banks, Hanley Ramirez and Vern Stephens.  Bichette is more like these guys than Jeter in regards to the shape of his offence- less on-base ability and more pop. 

Here are the ZiPS AL projected standings.  Houston leads the table with 90 projected wins, the Yankees second with 89 and the Jays third with 88.  Tampa with 86 and Seattle and the Angels with 85 wins follow.  The AL Central leader is Cleveland with 83 wins.  The Jays start the season with an 7% chance of winning a World Series. 

soupman - Thursday, February 09 2023 @ 02:49 PM EST (#426607) #
Jeter: bad range, but I only saw him throw a ball away one time. Also..the flip. IMO he was better than fine at short. I do think it's interesting that he's viewed as the consummate team player when it probably made more sense to play A-Rod at short..and then he also chased the batting crown in '06 when that stretch he was definitely playing for the MVP. I guess that seemed like more of a big deal at the time in Yankees land than it really is in retrospect...he probably should have accumulated a couple more hits so non-canadians wouldn't have to remember Justin Morneau's name
bpoz - Thursday, February 09 2023 @ 06:10 PM EST (#426608) #
Yu Darvish $108mil/6 with SD.
John Northey - Thursday, February 09 2023 @ 10:23 PM EST (#426609) #
The latest says Bo is guaranteed $33.6 million over 3 years, but has incentives that could push it to $40.65 million.

IMO a good deal all around. I figured the Jays were looking at closer to $35-40 if they went year to year, and this sets it up so Bo has the safety of $33 mil even if he breaks his leg tomorrow, but if he performs he could get up to $40 mil. The Jays get to go through those years feeling like they know what their budget is and not having to alienate a major player on the team. Now the trick is to figure out long term deals, but Bo has always said stuff about wanting to go to free agency, as is his right, while Vlad seems more willing to sign now. Of course, the public face we see could be 100% different from the real one behind the scenes.
John Northey - Thursday, February 09 2023 @ 10:33 PM EST (#426610) #
Odd deal for Darvish - he is entering his age 36 season so 6 years takes him through age 41. By fWAR he is worth it - 2.6+ fWAR each year for the past 4 years INCLUDING 2020 (2.9 that shortened year). If he does 2+ WAR per year for 5 years he'd be worth it easily, even if year 6 is a write off. But at his age this is a very risky deal. His HOF creds are getting to the interesting level, 32 fWAR, 30 bWAR. Very short by just that, but add in 93 wins and a 1.99 ERA in Japan and you have a guy who has to be seriously considered. If he averages 2 WAR per year for those 6 he'd be up to the 40's in MLB which is marginal on its own. But factor in other elements and he moves into the grey zone imo. A Cy Young award would help a lot at this point. He doesn't need a Verlander finish but something in eyeshot of that to reach the Hall. This contract will go a long way to making it possible though as odds are it locks in 30 starts a year if healthy.
John Northey - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 12:02 AM EST (#426611) #
BP is changing their defense using more batted ball information - a full description is at their site. For 2022 it shows Bo as among the worst SS's in "Range Defense Added" - -9 in Range Outs Made, -2.1 in Range Out Score, and -1 in Attempted Range. Basically Bo has average range but is poor at converting balls he gets to into outs.

Details are: Range Outs Score = the percent above- or below-average that the player successfully converts a charged play to an out, so Bo was 9% below average for making outs. Attempted Range basically says he attempted 1 fewer play than he should've vs an average shortstop. The best in MLB was Willy Adames at +17.2 ROM, and 16 extra attempts vs average. Ha-Seong Kim who should've been a Jay (grr) was 4th at 11.1 ROM, with 12 extra attempts. The vast majority of infielders should be +-3 or 4 for ROM. Thus Bo is very poor by this measure which according to them is extremely accurate long term and is a strong indicator of future performance. Yikes. Wonder if the extreme shifting hurt him last year or helped him. Guess we'll find out.
bpoz - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 06:25 AM EST (#426612) #
Thanks John N for the analysis.

A team should build good O and good D. Obviously easier said than done. Bo, Vlad, Kirk are young and will give us very good O for the next 3 years. Their D should not hurt much in those 3 years. Also the pitching staff seems very good if healthy for the next 3 years.

Springer is the only long term regular that is getting old.
mathesond - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 08:14 AM EST (#426613) #
"Springer is the only long term regular that is getting old."

I hate to break it to you, bpoz, but everyone is getting old.
Mike Green - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 09:14 AM EST (#426614) #
Speak for yourself, mathesond. I'm doing the time warp, and it won't be long until I get up early on Saturday to watch cartoons. Never mind, that's a perfectly sensible dystopia survival strategy for adults.

Bo Bichette's Statcast defensive card tells a consistent story that I find credible. He is average at everything except coming in on the ball when playing in typical non-shift position. Arm accuracy is the main issue. The arm strength is adequate. VGJ did a much better job this past year scooping for him, but he does need to work on that. I am sure he knows it. He may not be suited to the Tulo approach, but that is probably an easier thing to fix than Jeter's first step issues were.

Bo has been consistently slightly above average when LHBs are at the plate and consistently well below average when RHB are at the plate. It's the long throw coming in that plagues him.
BlueJayWay - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 09:56 AM EST (#426615) #
Most of us are older than we used to be.
Leaside Cowboy - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 10:46 AM EST (#426616) #
Art Schallock is the oldest living ballplayer, born April 25th, 1924.

Willie Mays is the oldest living member of the Hall of Fame, born May 6th, 1931.

bpoz - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 11:08 AM EST (#426617) #
Really nice that we are enjoying the age angle. I am having a laugh.

To join in I searched to see if Atkins has added any older players. He has added a few. Anyway I clicked on C Jamie Ritchie for the 1st time. He is 29 years old with a high Avg and V good bb/k ratio but no power. I am wondering about his D.
ISLAND BOY - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 11:35 AM EST (#426618) #
The oldest player to ever appear in a MLB game was, of course, the great Satchel Paige at age 59. Julio Franco is the oldest player to hit a home run in a MLB game at age 48.( Off of Randy Johnson who was 43 at the time.) I guess I posted this to make myself feel better because I see some young guys playing in the majors who were born after the year 2000.
jgadfly - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 11:47 AM EST (#426619) #
Sportsnet has posted broadcasting schedule for 16 home spring training games starting with Yankee$ visiting on February 16th at 1:00 pm plus some away games with home team broadcasts ... it seems to be warming up!
scottt - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 12:35 PM EST (#426620) #
Bo doesn't stop. He throws on the run. So he gets to a lot of balls but often he can't make the play.
The diving plays? He doesn't even attempt those.

Hopefully, the shift rule won't impact him.

I wonder if they'll try to give him more rest. Or even use a defensive replacement on occasion.
He had a horribly slow start last year, so it was hard to give him a rest.

I think this team could do OK with Espinal at SS for an extended period.
Catcher could be the spot with the least depth now, ironically.

Magpie - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 02:19 PM EST (#426621) #
Julio Franco is the oldest player to hit a home run in a MLB game at age 48.

He was 49 by the time he got his last hit (pinch-hit RBI single in his last MLB at bat.)
Eephus - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 03:48 PM EST (#426622) #
Is Minnie Minoso the oldest player to record a hit in an MLB game? I know he's the only player to appear in five decades, and Minoso seems to have gone 1-8 in one of his brief late career stints.
Magpie - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 03:58 PM EST (#426623) #
Is Minnie Minoso the oldest player to record a hit in an MLB game?

Charlie O'Leary, a coach for the St.Louis Browns, came out of retirement to pinch hit in the 1934 season finale and singled off Eldon Auker. O'Leary was 58 years old and it had been 21 years since his last game in the majors. He had been the Detroit shortstop on the teams that lost to the Cubs in the 1907-08 World Series.
John Northey - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 04:47 PM EST (#426624) #
For age I look at who was the last guy from the year I was born. Mariano Rivera. 1981 is the most recent year with no one left - Adam Wainwright and Oliver Perez were the last ones from that year (guess they could make a comeback though). 7 still kicking from 1982 (Cano for example) but that could end quickly. When I was younger it was exciting to see Ken Griffey, Jr. reach the majors (first from '69 to do so). What is sad is seeing guys from the year you were born dying (Kenny Robinson the first from '69 who died in 1999. 7 have died who were born that year so far). FYI: Robinson (came up a Blue Jay) was killed by a drunk driver - a teammate who got off due to the cops not letting him call his dad who was a lawyer.

1924 seems to be the furthest back I can go and find living ex-players. 2 still kicking from then, Bill Greason and Art Schallock (Schallock is the oldest, born in April vs Greason in September).
Cynicalguy - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 06:05 PM EST (#426625) #
Great news that all 16 spring training home games would be televised. Plus some road games...not sure if the road games would be produced by Sportsnet or just picking up the feed from other teams' broadcast.
John Northey - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 08:48 PM EST (#426626) #
I'd bet strongly road games will be by their teams broadcaster, so odds are Yankee games will be the only ones on the road (as they often are picked up by the Jays). Maybe the Phillies and Atlanta will be televised by their local stations, but I'd be surprised if road games are by anyone but the local teams. I'd figure then the Pirates are out (who wants to watch them in the regular season, let alone pre-season?).
vw_fan17 - Friday, February 10 2023 @ 09:06 PM EST (#426627) #
'71 for me, and I suspect there are a bunch of us of a similar age..
John Northey - Saturday, February 11 2023 @ 01:45 PM EST (#426628) #
FYI: Bo Bichette's incentives are... winning an MVP in either of the first two seasons, his salary would escalate by $2.25 Mil for any future seasons. Future salaries would escalate by $1.25 Mil for a second or third place finish and by $250K for a fourth or fifth place tally. Let's hope he earns the maximum there.
Mike Green - Sunday, February 12 2023 @ 06:08 AM EST (#426629) #
I wish John Tory a happy retirement even if the precipitating cause was sordid. The city could certainly use new leadership, and the retirement was spectacularly well-timed, allowing me to watch Blue Jay games in good conscience right from the outset of spring training.

In a world of a pandemic that won't quit, a war in Europe again, and spy balloons, we take our mercies wherever we find them.
85bluejay - Sunday, February 12 2023 @ 08:34 AM EST (#426630) #
"The city could certainly use new leadership" - be careful what you wish for - I'm sure the developers are meeting to decide whom will be the next Mayor, money almost always wins - Come on John Sewell, you are only 82 & I'll campaign for you again - let me relive my youth!
JohnL - Sunday, February 12 2023 @ 04:25 PM EST (#426631) #
I also campaigned for Sewell for mayor (twice.) My mayoral campaign record is a solid .500. Three wins, three losses, and one dropped-out-before-the-election. I am happy to say I've campaigned against John Tory every time he ran, with a 1-2-1 record.
Leaside Cowboy - Sunday, February 12 2023 @ 04:50 PM EST (#426632) #
I remember being at study hall, across the street from the university faculty club, where I saw the media assemble for John Tory's resignation as leader of the Ontario PC party.
Leaside Cowboy - Sunday, February 12 2023 @ 05:43 PM EST (#426633) #
Today, I went down to Leafs practice at Nathan Phillips Square. I looked at the players. I thought about the body types for hockey and compared that to baseball. I like ballplayers tall and slender, generally speaking, especially pitchers. Some players on the Blue Jays roster are different body types and all those conversations. George Bell was fined $100 per pound over-weight by Jimy Williams. When camp opens, we can see how the boys look.
Mike Green - Monday, February 13 2023 @ 10:51 AM EST (#426634) #
Pitchers and catchers report on Thursday.  BSOHL time sure beats the long nap from November. 
85bluejay - Monday, February 13 2023 @ 11:38 AM EST (#426635) #
The football season keeps getting longer and I expect eventually that pitchers and catchers will report before the Super Bowl is played.
Mike Green - Monday, February 13 2023 @ 12:13 PM EST (#426636) #
What is this game you call football?  And why?
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