Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
It's pretty simple. Win or go home.


The Twins and their fans were talking about how their defense won yesterday's game for them, and they did make a quantity of good plays. But two of them, obviously, were crucial.

The first, of course, was Correa throwing Bichette out at home to end the top of the fourth. Luis Rivera evidently held up a stop sign, but Bichette either didn't notice or ignored it. Aggressive baserunning often blows up in your face in the post-season, as those of us old enough to remember the 1985 Blue Jays remember all too well. Challenging a good player to make a good play isn't a winning strategy. But I don't think Bichette was being over-aggressive and Rivera's stop sign, if it was there, seems a little too cautious, if not downright timid. Correa didn't make a good play - I think he made an amazing play. He was standing near second base when the ball got through Polanco. He had to dash over to near third base on his sore foot, barehand the ball, and throw a strike to the catcher, off-balance and on the run. It was worthy of the late great Brooks Robinson, who did that sort of thing better than anyone.

But much more important was Michael A. Taylor's catch on Chapman's drive to the wall to end the top of the sixth. It wasn't as spectacular - Taylor is so smooth, so fast, and so graceful that he makes everything look pretty easy. But two runs score and the game is tied if he doesn't get to that ball. Or if Chapman had hit it 403 feet instead of 401... Well, we can all think about what needed to be done differently to squeeze out just an extra couple of feet on that drive, and slowly lose our collective minds. That way madness lies.

But I think George Springer was right afterwards. The Blue Jays played a pretty good game - they hit the ball well, made plays on defense, held the other team to three runs. But the Twins are a good team and played very well themselves. What it really came down to was Pablo Lopez being better than Kevin Gausman on the day. Well, Rocco didn't give Lopez the Game One start because of his sexy Latin looks.

Sonny Gray - who is that extremely rare creature, a short RH pitcher - had a season that in almost every respect was like all the other Sonny Gray seasons before. He's been a solid starting pitcher for a long time. What was different about him in 2023 was that no one could take him deep. He's always been able to keep the ball in the yard, but this season was exceptional. Gray didn't give up his first homer of the season until June 3, in his twelfth start, and he allowed just 8 long balls all season. That's the same number of homers as Erik Swanson and Yimi Garcia gave up.

The Report Card is nowhere near ready. Not even close. I need the season to continue a little longer.
Wild Card, Gme 2 | 238 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 10:05 AM EDT (#438429) #
I don't think the jays played terribly but all due respect to George it's hard to say they played well when the starting pitcher had one of his worst outings of the season, while the middle of the order wasted a late innings leadoff double in horrifying fashion.
scottt - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#438431) #
The Twins have 2 good defenders in Correa and Taylor. The others are either below average or just bad. Julien at 2B and Kiriloff in the outfield, for example. Unfortunately, the Jays focus on hitting the ball down the middle and that's where the defense is.

The Twins seem to have scouted the Jays well and the pitchers executed.
They did try to throw a low fasball away past KK and that let to the Jays lone run.

Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 10:30 AM EDT (#438433) #
FWIW, Statcast suggests that Sonny Gray has been remarkably consistent over the last 5 years with xwOBAs ranging between .279 and .304. (this year .297).  The xSLG has been similarly remarkably consistent (and low).   I looked carefully and I don't see any holes in his game to be exploited.  Polanco looked very weak at third base, and it sure would be nice if someone on the club could bunt.  Alas.  It is hard to be optimistic about the club's likelihood of scoring 4 runs or more today, but that's why they play the games.


Nigel - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#438435) #
It is one of my frustrations with this team that in games like yesterday they don’t try something different like bunting. Varsho is an excellent bunter and Belt is pretty good as well. Try something different- anything to get a man on, create some havoc, destroy rhythm. But they don’t - they keep hacking for HRs. They end up just meekly getting in the lineup to the slaughterhouse.

I really think this game turns on the early innings. Can the Jays get something early to ease the pressure and give Berrios some breathing room?
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 10:47 AM EDT (#438437) #
I kinda see it differently - can Berrios have a normal SP outing and not put the jays bats in an instant early hole to dig out of?
Joe - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 10:54 AM EDT (#438438) #
they keep hacking for HRs
I didn't see this at all yesterday. It's a common "armchair manager" complaint that just doesn't feel even slightly truthy. The Jays hit a few balls very well that found Michael A. Taylor's glove, and those weren't HR swings.
85bluejay - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 11:04 AM EDT (#438440) #
Berrios has given 25HR this year, Gray 8HR - does not bode well.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#438443) #
We need more positivity to bring back more original posters to Da Box. Too much negativity. I've been very down on Vladdy all season and upset at the prospect of this historically good team pitching wise might miss the playoffs. Now they are in the playoffs. They did not play bad last night. They are going against very good pitching rest of way which was always a question for this team success wise dating back to last years roster which struggled against Kyle Bradish multiple times.
Gerry - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#438444) #
I think the negativity relates to how this team has played versus expectations. I went back and looked at the predictions thread and I didn't see one post that picked the Jays to win fewer games than they did. All predictions were at least in the 90's and many in the mid nineties.

I think next season, if the same core is back, expectations will be lower.
ISLAND BOY - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 11:43 AM EDT (#438445) #
I think if we were told this spring that 4 starters would pitch at least 30 games and have ERA's between 3 and 4, we would have felt pretty good about our predictions. Even the experts (so-called) in different publications predicting the playoffs are confounded how almost a whole lineup has dropped at least 20 points in OPS in one season.
scottt - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 12:06 PM EDT (#438447) #
8 Blue Jays in the AFL this year.
This is the place for pitchers who missed time due to injuries.
So, Tiedemann, Connor Larkin, Trent Palmer, Fitz Stadler and CJ Van Eyk.
Van Eyk and Palmer were the 3nd and 3rd round pick from 2020, Larking was picked in the 9th round in 2019.
Stadler was picked in the 18th round way back in 2018.

On the position side, Palmegiani has been hitting a bit in AAA. He was a 14th round pick in 2021.
Robertson is a lefty batting outfielder who played in AA. He was drafted in the 4th round in 2019.
Dasan Brown is a speedy outfielder drafted in the 3rd round in 2019. Could be a future Cam Eden.

With respect to the rule 5. Van Eyk is eligible this year, along with Brown and Palmer.
Robertson and Stadler went unclaimed.
They other guys will have to wait a year or two.

dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 12:08 PM EDT (#438448) #
Scottt,

There was an AFL thread posted right before your post.
Glevin - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#438450) #
It's just so hard to believe how bad the hitting is. Chapman was on fire early in the year and Vlad was hitting briefly and Schneider was a monster when he came up but there have barely even been good offensive months by players. Just consistently mediocre every month. It's crazy that the Jays were hitting someone with a 103 WRC+ 5th in the playoff game. What's even worse, is that I am not sure there is anyone better to hit there. Just a massive underperformance offensively by the entire team.
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#438451) #
My comment about the bunting was actually forward-thinking.  Gray gets a lot of ground balls and controls the running game very well- opponents only tried to steal 12 times this year.  A number of Blue Jay hitters are vulnerable to the double play and it would be handy if the bunt was an option for them.  Kevin Kiermaier grounded into quite a few double plays this year, and looks to have his head right in the game now; I can easily see him laying one down toward third base if he comes up with a runner on first.  If he draws the third baseman in, then slap it by him.  Kirk makes contact and you can hit and run with him.  Springer and Guerrero Jr. will just have to swing away and cross fingers- the right-field stands are reachable at Target Field, and that's a good, um, location, for them to shoot for. 
SK in NJ - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#438452) #
The hitting approach is not good. For whatever reason the organization has determined that hitting the ball to dead center or the other way is the right way to hit, and it's suppressed the team's ability to hit for power consistently all season. The hits and the outs in Game 1 felt like they all went to center or the other way. It's not an offense that has any chance of doing damage in the post season. I don't care who the opponent is. Stringing 3-4 hits together just to get on the board is not a strategy that will work in a playoff environment when the pitching is a lot better. The Jays basically have to hope the SP's don't give up any runs in order to win these games, much like the regular season.

Regardless of what happens during this post season, they need to clean house on the hitting coaches on this team.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#438453) #
Jays wore their blue jerseys last year in WC loss to Seattle.

Jays wore Baby Blue to WC loss to Minnesota yesterday.

Will they switch to road greys today?
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 02:08 PM EDT (#438454) #
The hitting coach is a "middle hitting coach" meaning he takes orders from the FO every game. Same way Jon Schneider is a "middle manager," which is a term Jason Stark came up with.
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#438456) #
The 2023 Jays lack an offensive identity.

They don't have any compelling offensive attributes (hit, hit for power, walk, bunt, steal bases, run the bases well, extend at-bats, execute generally). They're kind of a mediocre mishmash on all fronts.
85bluejay - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#438457) #
I wonder who has booked tee times for tomorrow?
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#438458) #
Maybe a good time to leave this here. In 2021, Vladdy was hitting plenty of home runs to center and some to right.  Watch and enjoy.  

He doesn't seem to be able to hit it as far and as often the last 2 years, and especially this year.  It's an adjustment. 
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#438459) #
The Jays are by no means near the top among teams hitting the ball to RF or even to centre. I'd argue Springer and Kirk both started hitting better when they began using the whole field more often later in the year.

If you pull everything, pitchers are just going to work the outside of the plate consistently and you'll see a ton of weak ground balls to the SS and 3B.

You're going to see Gray chew up the Jays today if he's commanding his fastball and using both his sweeper and cutter away from the RHHs.

You have to show a willingness to, at times, hit the ball hard the other way or you're just too easy to pitch to in this slider/sweeper/cutter crazy world. Unless you have strong discipline to lay off those pitches, which the Jays lineup features very few of...
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#438460) #
Also wanted to add... I wonder if Kirk is partially to blame for Gausman's tipping. I was watching the D-Backs game last night and the Brewers catcher William Contreras was tipping Devin Williams (a twp-pitch pitcher) pitch selection. He was super quick on the pitchcom for the change up given the lack of a need to choose location while he took noticeably longer on fastballs while relaying location.

For guys like Gausman and even Richards, you don't need location as much on the change and splitters because they're always low in the zone and you more or less try to throw it down the middle and let the natural movement take over...

In Contreras' case he was also giving away the pitch with his glove by holding it up longer for the fastball. For the change, he'd hold it up but then drop it down to the ground...
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#438461) #
Except for Bo Bichette, who goes to RF effectively and manages to avoid hitting fly balls to straight-away centerfield too often.  With Michael Taylor out there and the expanse in center at Target Field, that's a good thing. 
Dewey - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 03:38 PM EDT (#438463) #
Hey, it’s 2023. This is corporate baseball. Jason Stark is right: Schneider is merely a middle manager. The F.O.”team” calls the shots (and is designated a ‘team’ so nobody in particular is seen as the one responsible. Like my car dealer.) That’s how we do it these days in Mr. Rogers’ neighbourhood. And that’s what Mr. Shapiro knows.

Francona, Showalter, Gabe Kapler already announced as not returning next year, at least not with their current teams. So lots of middle-manager revolving to be done this off-season. Lots more redesigning, and head-office busyness and brain-storming to be done as well (And don’t forget those major revenue-spinning stadium renovations: the playoffs are only interfering with those, anyway.)
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#438464) #
Naturally, we’ll all be feeling somewhat better if the Jays win today.
SK in NJ - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#438465) #
Springer and Chapman both saw an 18% drop in pull % this season from last season. Someone in the organization is preaching hitting the ball to center and/or the other way. If it’s not the hitting coaches and it’s the front office, then that presents a major issue because 3m in attendance and a playoff appearance won’t create an urgency for change. The approach needs to be fixed. It works for Bichette but it’s not going to work for everyone.
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#438466) #
" Just Bring It. "
Nigel - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#438467) #
Chapman is the player whose approach seems to have suffered the most with a shift away from pull and lift. For much of the year he was among the leaders in flyballs over x feet (I think the number was 390) that lead to outs. He's hit a ton of deep flys to C and right C this year to no avail. It would be interesting to know how much diversity there is in hitting philosophy being preached at the individual player level. Different horses for different courses and all that.

Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 04:31 PM EDT (#438468) #
Evan Carter is having a nice wild card series for Texas.   He had 75 major league PAs this season with a 180 wRC+ and a 32% K rate. 
krose - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#438469) #
Same lineup as yesterday. Hoping for a different result.
Kasi - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#438470) #
At least we’re not being eliminated first. :p
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#438471) #
What a chance here for Toronto. Two on, two out in the first. No pressure!
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 04:51 PM EDT (#438472) #
Painful. Biggio took a hittable 3-2 pitch for strike three. The Jays aren’t going to get many chances as good as that one.
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#438473) #
Nice pitch to go the other way on- with really only Polanco on the left side of the bag (Correa about a foot on the left).  A single would have been sweet. 
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#438474) #
One batter in, Berrios looks sharp.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#438475) #
That's more like it Berrios. We don't have to be on the ropes every inning from the very start.
Polite Nate - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#438476) #
Ump's justification for that "foul" ball seemed pretty sketch to me.
krose - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#438477) #
Biggio not well suited to be a five hole hitter. Looked overmatched. Can’t help but wonder if Schneider would be better. With the scoring difficulty of this team…
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#438478) #
"Biggio took a hittable 3-2 pitch for strike three"

did the same on the 2-2 pitch!
Nigel - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#438479) #
So far, the hitting approach as been excellent.
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#438480) #
The previous pitch to Biggio was a borderline strike—not very hittable. The pitch that was actually called strike three was a similar pitch, but located well within the strike zone. I was surprised Biggio let it go by.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#438481) #
keep eating up that pitch count please.
krose - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#438482) #
Really need to get something here.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#438483) #
not gonna get Gray looking this vulnerable very often. better capitalize soon.
Nigel - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#438484) #
Other than getting a clutch hit, they've done everything right so far.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#438485) #
ok hitters your starter showed up for you today. no excuses this second time through.
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#438486) #
What is that weird swing VGJ has put on the ball his first two PAs?
christaylor - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#438487) #
I am enjoying ARod as a color commentator. It'd be nice if there could be a changing of the guard in the Jays booth to a former player. Bautista would be a hard get, given he has young kids, and it seems SportsNet is grooming Caleb Joeseph.

If the Jays make the playoffs next year, perhaps Bautista could be persuaded.
krose - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#438488) #
This is the team’s pattern. Getting the clutch is a problem.
Chuck - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#438489) #
it seems SportsNet is grooming Caleb Joeseph

I would think that Joe Siddall would be next in line for the job. He's already serving as the primary substitute. Joseph seems to be next in line to be Siddall's regular replacement at the Budweiser Zero Non-Alcoholic Swill of the Eighth Inning desk.

Nigel - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#438490) #
I like Siddall as the colour analyst - I've learned a great deal from him over the years.
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#438491) #
Zero taste, zero alcohol.  By the time the 8th inning rolls around, we might all need something. 
christaylor - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#438492) #
Ah, I forgot about him; I can see that. It'd be nice to have a player doing color who has played in the majors in the current century and has at least some success in the majors.

Failing that, I wonder what it'd take for Rogers to hire away Cone from the Yankees. He didn't have success in the 21st century, but he is entertaining and seems to have a grasp on analytics.

This is all wishful thinking, but a more entertaining broadcast might have mitigated this season's frustrating aspects. I didn't exactly like the AppleTV broadcasts but at least they were entertaining in how different they are from the same same we've been experiencing for going on 20ish years.
Chuck - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#438493) #
I like Siddall, too. He's calm and lets the game breathe, choosing to be quiet when talk isn't warranted. And, while a homer, he is objective. A fresh change.
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#438494) #
They aren’t really going to pull Berrios, are they?
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#438495) #
Dewey, help me out. Do you think there are any more "real" managers left? I can only think of Bruce Bochy.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:41 PM EDT (#438496) #
Buck Martinez > Jays FO/manager
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#438497) #
This is infuriating.
Cracka - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#438498) #
Nope. Don't like this AT ALL. This is a career-defining decision for Schneider - this was 100% planned despite Berrios having his good stuff today... if they don't win today, this will never be forgotten.
#2JBrumfield - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#438499) #
Galaxy-brained! It's the 2023 version of Matt Shoemaker and Robbie Ray. What could possibly go wrong?
Gerry - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#438500) #
I am shocked, Berrios looked great.

I have to think this was pre-planned, maybe a front office directive.
Magpie - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:44 PM EDT (#438501) #
This had better work.
krose - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#438502) #
Wonder if this was Schneider’s decision or came from above. Just seems sooo dumb.
soupman - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#438503) #
I’ll just also go on the record saying that this is stupid
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#438504) #
Definitely pre-planned.  It's not what I would do either.  Kikuchi still has to face RHBs, and who knows what he will have.
Nigel - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#438505) #
I can only think that this was pre-planned - no one in their right mind would make that call based on the first 3 innings.
vw_fan17 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#438506) #
Just joined - had a job interview, and then forgot about the game for a bit..
Was dreading it being 4-0 for the Twins already. At least we're still in the game.

Don't like this move, though. Unless, I guess, it gets all the LHB out of the game, and helps us win by attrition. But, it will depend on how Kikuchi is coming out of the pen. Not a great start (although bad luck) so far.
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#438507) #
This has the making of a disaster, maybe even in this inning.

Too cute by half.
Katie - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:48 PM EDT (#438508) #
This was pre-planned and I think they should have deviated based on how Berrios was pitching. I don't like it.
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#438509) #
By the time the 8th inning rolls around, we might all need something.

Batter's Box is a dry forum.

uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#438510) #
Pulling a guy pitching so well is just friggin dumb.
Nigel - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#438511) #
One of the more breath takingly bad decisions I've seen in a long time.
vw_fan17 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#438512) #
Need to pull a rabbit out of a hat here...
soupman - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#438513) #
Let’s assume the worst for a second and the season ends here. Schneider takes the fall? How many managers does Atkins get to go through? And let’s be serious Shapiro is the one that needs to go- I called this the day they got hired. He’s a management school nepo baby that uses best practices to minimize risks, but also limits upside.
Nigel - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#438514) #
Game over
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#438515) #
This is arguably worse than Grady Little/Pedro Martinez.

Would not be surprised to see the Jays fail to score more than one run.
AWeb - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#438516) #
This team actively wants me to hate them. Maybe they can make a run at the Twins unfathomable 18 game playoff losing streak. Turning this off now.
vw_fan17 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#438517) #
Game over
Well, it is in Tampa..
Kasi - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#438518) #
Why the hell are they pulling a pitcher who was doing well? This seems to be kinda dumb.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:54 PM EDT (#438519) #
Im done with this FO. It's crystal clear to me that Schneider has no control over real decisions.
SK in NJ - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:54 PM EDT (#438520) #
The front office shouldn't be brought back after a decision like that. No way that was Schneider's call. He had pitchers warming up early. This was pre-planned before the game. Absolutely inexcusable and shows no feel for the game being played.
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:54 PM EDT (#438521) #
Jeffers kills LH pitching. 
krose - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:55 PM EDT (#438522) #
Have been playing and watching baseball for 65 years. This might be the most egregious decision by management I can remember. Oh! Wait there was a lefty reliever and Buck Showalter…
Kasi - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:55 PM EDT (#438523) #
Well that could have been worse I suppose. Like I was saying start with Kikuchi but don’t bring in a pitcher mid inning. That doesn’t seem right at all for a starter who is not used to it.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#438524) #
Ending the season on an early pull would be completely appropriate of course.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:57 PM EDT (#438525) #
of course, it would have been nice if Batters Box favourite son Cavan Biggio made that easy play on the first hitter he faced.
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#438526) #
Giving analytics a bad name.

It's a dynamic process, if you do it right.  And if you know what Berrios has done, that ought to be factored into your decision-making.  From an analytics perspective. 
krose - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:59 PM EDT (#438527) #
Wonder if we’ll find out later that this decision was foisted on Schneider.
Kasi - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 05:59 PM EDT (#438528) #
I don’t think Shapiro had anything to do with it. He like Beeston is fairly hands off on that side. Atkins though (or his hires) most certainly. I think they should fire Atkins and replace him with the guy we got from Houston. And fire Schneider too and overhaul the coaching staff.
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#438529) #
The 2023 Blue Jays, ladies and gentlemen.
#2JBrumfield - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#438530) #
Best line on Twitter in a Josh Goldberg thread. 'Good thing Atkins wasn’t the Yankees GM in '56 or he would have had Larsen out of there after 4 innings……'
Nigel - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:05 PM EDT (#438531) #
I think that decision was worse than the Showalter decision (which was pretty bad).
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#438532) #
C'mon now.  Big wallop.
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#438533) #
Nicely done by Guerrero Jr.  If they bring on the lefty to face Biggio, is it finally Davis Time? 
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#438534) #
a little wallopette would be just fine.
Ryan Day - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:07 PM EDT (#438535) #
The Berrios/Kikuch swap maybe made sense if Berrios was struggling, but he brought his A-Game today. Pulling him is just showing off how clever you think you can be.
Chuck - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:07 PM EDT (#438536) #
Umpie is trying to help.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:08 PM EDT (#438537) #
swinging for the fences when all we need is a gdamn single.
krose - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:08 PM EDT (#438538) #
Will we Davis?
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#438539) #
OMG Guerrero
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#438540) #
oh my sweet dear baby jesus
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#438541) #
Oh dear, Vladimir.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#438542) #
he's safe
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#438543) #
Worst.Team.Ever.
soupman - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#438544) #
How many times do you need to be made to look like a moron before you learn?
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#438545) #
they just had to go out in utter humiliation again.

no hard fought well played losses for this team.
krose - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#438546) #
Humbling season for Vlad.
Nigel - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#438547) #
Safe or not - these two games have been a complete microcosm of the team's issues this year.
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#438548) #
Oh dear, Vladimir.

So sad, young Vlad.
vw_fan17 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#438549) #
During the last couple of Maple Leafs playoff runs, a common complaint was that the team looked like just didn't care.

I humbly take back every bad thing I said about the Leafs not caring / not being intense enough. I've played on softball teams with more intensity..
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#438550) #
at least we got kikuchi.
christaylor - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#438551) #
What's the opposite of the bat-flip moment? I think we just saw it.
Nigel - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#438552) #
In '85 and '87 I thought the baseball gods shafted the Jays. This ain't '85 or '87.
krose - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#438553) #
Still 4 innings to get back into the game. They just might do it.
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#438554) #
Terrible play by Vlad, but what about the pre-game coaching? Were the Jays players not briefed about Gray’s pickoff move?

Minus the Springer injury, this WC series has been as devastating as last year’s, and an equal (or worse) indictment of the manager and front office. To think pf the colossal effort to get here that was potentially frittered away over the last couple of innings.
Gerry - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#438555) #
Kikuchi got five outs but gave up three hits and a walk. I think Berrios would have been better than that.
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:24 PM EDT (#438556) #
The odds were pretty good, Gerry.  A .444 OBP is a pretty low bar. 
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:26 PM EDT (#438557) #
a 2 run deficit in a battle of the bullpens still leaves us no excuse not to win it.



but I'm guessing they quit.
Polite Nate - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#438558) #
The pickoff was worse than the pitching change. Twins almost got caught out for not pulling their starter fast enough.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#438559) #
omg are we going to see schneider???



or more whit.
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#438560) #
Merrifield, rather than Davis Schneider, with a bat in his hands, to pinch-hit for Kiermaier with the lefty coming on and 2 on.  Whose decision is this one? 
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:30 PM EDT (#438561) #
would be perfect of the jays to pull off a win only after absolutely enraging the entire fanbase.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:31 PM EDT (#438562) #
espinal lmao

please do something good.
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:31 PM EDT (#438563) #
OK. Espinal is not a bad choice against a LHP. 
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:32 PM EDT (#438564) #
absolute genius pinch hit.

never doubted it for a second.
vw_fan17 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:32 PM EDT (#438565) #
Here's Chapman's chance to significantly increase his next contract...
vw_fan17 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#438566) #
Aaaand, we're done..
lexomatic - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#438567) #
Damn Chapman
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#438568) #
amazing. just amazing.
Gerry - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#438569) #
Game of inches
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:34 PM EDT (#438570) #
Speechless
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#438571) #
The Berrios pull will go down in Jays history as "The Sweetspot of Shared Risk".
Magpie - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#438572) #
Just as I'm thinking "Well, Chapman will probably strike out but at least he won't hit into a double play...."
Gerry - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#438573) #
Chapman was two feet and two plays away from being the MVP. instead he has nothing to show for his efforts.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#438574) #
we have had so many breaks in this 2gms, both from the umps and from the bounces. and against the team lowest in the standings. and we can't do diddley.
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#438575) #
It’s a game of inches but it’s also a game of probabilities. The best teams work the probabilities in their favour. The worst ones do the opposite.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#438576) #
There's no way KK is returning to this team now after they show no confidence im his bat or value for his late inning defense.
krose - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#438577) #
Baseball is a wildly strange game. I’d love this team’s play if they were upside down.
Gerry - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:43 PM EDT (#438578) #
Did Berrios know he was only going to face 12 hitters and if so was he able to go all out for a shorter stint?

Would he have been as good if he knew he had to go 7 innings?
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:43 PM EDT (#438579) #
I still can’t believe Vladdy took the bat out of Bichette’s hands with runners ans second and third with two out and a 3-2 count on Bo. Truly shocking.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:46 PM EDT (#438580) #

Series so far: 15 innings, 17 jays runners left stranded
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:46 PM EDT (#438581) #
It's taken a full season but I think consensus on Vladdy has gone from "no longer the superstar we thought he might be" to "there is something seriously wrong with his approach to the game."
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:48 PM EDT (#438582) #

A-Rod broke down how Sonny Gray tipped Carlos Correa off that he was gonna try to pick off Vladdy pic.twitter.com/gTUKtg3zCo

— Jomboy Media (@JomboyMedia) October 4, 2023
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#438583) #
What were the chances Bichette would have come through with a hit or walk in that situation? 35%?
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#438584) #
Belt wants NOISE
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:52 PM EDT (#438585) #
It's certainly possible that it was a kind of tandem start, and that Berrios was told (which helped him).  It didn't look like the club knew when Kikuchi would come on.  They had him warming, then sitting with Cabrera warming, and then warming with intensity, and then coming in with a runner on.  This isn't a good way to do a tandem start. 
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:54 PM EDT (#438586) #

3D tracking: Stick Figure Sonny Gray picks off Vlad Jr. at second base

Vlad had a 16-foot primary lead and Gray's pickoff throw was 79.8 mph, if you're curious about such things pic.twitter.com/8taEkBFwDY

— David Adler (@_dadler) October 4, 2023
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:54 PM EDT (#438587) #
"Belt wants NOISE"

Hahaha
vw_fan17 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#438588) #
Did Vlad truly think he was safe on that pickoff?
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 06:59 PM EDT (#438589) #
Vladdy wasn't fast enough grtting back to the base there. He didnt have his foot at the corner of the bag like he should have.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#438590) #
Romano does not inspire confidence.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#438591) #
runs here to make the last 2 innings even less interesting would be unfortunate.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:02 PM EDT (#438592) #
This team reminds me of a MAD TV sketch...
soupman - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:02 PM EDT (#438593) #
he's a little leaguer. he always thinks anything he's involved in should be reviewed. he's cost the team many many many challenges because he always gestures to have them review plays and often the chinless manager acquiesces. his antics are annoying to watch on tv, i can't imagine being a co-worker with a grown man with children that acts like he's 12
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#438594) #
meat of the order due up next inning! we got this.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#438595) #
Legacy-making or maybe -sealing inning for Vlad and Bo here.

their jays legacy, at least.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:07 PM EDT (#438596) #
I think 2022 and 2023 and nearly 1400 AB's is enough of a sample of who Vladdy is.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:10 PM EDT (#438597) #
Pitches down the middle of the plate and they're fouled off and popped up by the "meat" of the order.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#438598) #
buck and dan praising correa for fielding a feeble bloop from bo is kinda making me sick.
vw_fan17 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#438599) #
Kind of appropriate that we got Vlad, Bo and Cavan in order here. Only thing more fitting would be if it was the 9th. Feels like the "goodbye" song for the one-time "future core".
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#438600) #
I think the real lesson to take from this season is that those garsh darn jays fans are just too damn negative.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:13 PM EDT (#438601) #
Griffin Jax, Cy Young candidate.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#438602) #
Vladdy Sr., Dante, and Craig are going to be too busy to answer the phone tonight.
Paul D - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#438603) #
At least they don't wear a jacket after they hit home runs
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:17 PM EDT (#438604) #
When the Astros annihilate this Twins team we will realize how far this Jays core is. Reminder: core expires in 2 years.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#438605) #
in retrospect, it's a bit cringeworthy that we entered the playoffs with Cavan Biggio as our #5 hitter.
vw_fan17 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:22 PM EDT (#438606) #
I mean, I think we were probably in the top-10 of MLB this year.. But still a long way to be top-5 or top-3.

It will be interesting to see what the FO does in the off-season.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:24 PM EDT (#438607) #
Atkins and Shapiro dive in October.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:26 PM EDT (#438608) #
That's it Schneider, eat up more time for Duran to keep warming up.
vw_fan17 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:26 PM EDT (#438609) #
So, think fastball more than breaking ball from Duran?
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#438610) #
HR or DP?
vw_fan17 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#438611) #
Tying run at the plate.. Both games have been close / down to the wire in some sense..
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#438612) #
season's gonna come down to Daulton Varsho.
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#438613) #
Would love to see Davis here
electric carrot - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#438614) #
i put in davis here.
Kasi - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:33 PM EDT (#438615) #
Lol Varsho ending the year striking out versus 100 mph heat is kinda fitting.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:33 PM EDT (#438616) #
lol. perfect end to the season.

unreal.

Astros are gonna destroy this twins team.
lexomatic - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:34 PM EDT (#438617) #
This team has too many hackers (yes to Davis, butbitbwoukd never happen).
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#438618) #
I think year 9 will be the year for Shapiro/Atkins.
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#438619) #
Very disappointing game. I think it will be remembered mainly for three things:

-Schneider pulling Berrios while he was pitching extremely well
-Vladdy getting picked off in a key situation
-Continued inability to get a hit with RISP
Glevin - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:37 PM EDT (#438620) #
Fire this team into the sun.
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:37 PM EDT (#438621) #
Tough series loss.  They could easily have won this game. Some bad planning, some bad play and some bad luck all contributed to the result.  As everyone knows, I would have started Davis Schneider in this series and in the games leading up to it, but I have no idea whether that would have worked out better.  We'll see about the post-season.

Extension granted for the report cards, Magpie. 
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#438622) #
The non non-alcoholic beverage of the eighth inning is definitely a good idea.  I've got something sour on the go, and it feels entirely appropriate. 
Magpie - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:42 PM EDT (#438623) #
I'm looking on the bright side. The Replacements, the Hold Steady, Weird Old Bob going back on my phone...

So who should be more disappointed... Jays fans or Rays fans (nothing like winning 99 games and completely crapping the bed.)

Oh wait, the Rays don't have any fans.
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#438624) #
I prefer to experience my season-ending loss unfiltered. No alcohol.
Nigel - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#438625) #
I enjoyed this year of Jays baseball on the whole but I didn't enjoy that game. So many aspects of the team's year long issues manifested today: poor base running; poor situational hitting; some head scratching personnel decisions and of course no RISP hitting. Justice was served (unfortunately).
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#438626) #
Smoke if you got 'em.
SK in NJ - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#438627) #
This should be the end of Ross Atkins as GM. It probably won't be, but it should. Rogers is not going to want to rebuild, but then find a better GM that can maximize the team's competitiveness. Atkins isn't it.
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#438628) #
Jays fans should be more disappointed.  The Rays, when healthy, were the best team in the American League, and they were just hit with a barrage of injuries that ultimately led to their defeat.  And the Rangers are the second best team in the league; I expect them to emerge as AL champions and to defeat Atlanta or Los Angeles in the World Series.  Which will make me happy for Marcus Semien, who deserves a ring. 
Nigel - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:46 PM EDT (#438629) #
Truthfully, if I were a Rays fan today I would feel exactly as I did in '87 at the season's end. I'd feel like the baseball gods had piled one too many injuries on the cart and the wheels had fallen off just as we crossed the pass and started on the 20% downhill section. A healthy Rays squad was the best team in the AL this year.
Nigel - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#438630) #
Or what Mike just said
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#438631) #
"I enjoyed this year of Jays baseball on the whole"

Mm hmm
soupman - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:54 PM EDT (#438632) #
“Playoffs are a crapshoot” sayers…how many more years of this do you need to see before you réalise the AA way of building teams is superior?
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:54 PM EDT (#438633) #
Well we'll always have these moderate stadium renos at least.
soupman - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#438634) #
They played at 92 win pace after their hot start. Good, but not elite. Texas is the best team in the AL even without Scherzer. The Braves could catch another bad week, but I don’t think it’s likely.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#438635) #
Ya won't hear me criticizing AA again.
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:00 PM EDT (#438636) #
“Playoffs are a crapshoot” sayers…how many more years of this do you need to see before you réalise the AA way of building teams is superior?

Playoffs are a crapshoot, but better teams do have a somewhat better chance of advancing than lesser teams.  And yes, the bye is worth something.  So, yes, build a better team.  89 wins is not 100 wins.  The Rays have played .593 (97 wins), .666, .617, .531 and .611 ball the last 5 years.  They have one World Series appearance (a loss) and four playoff losses to show for that run of excellence. 
Gerry - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#438637) #
Two years in a row with the season ending with Schneider facing questions about his managing. Not a good look.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:07 PM EDT (#438638) #
I'm not sure that showing that the rays also fail in the playoffs goes against the point he was making tho.
soupman - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:11 PM EDT (#438639) #
Teams with 100+ wins or the best record in their league more often make the World Series. Those teams also tend to stay good longer, which gives them more chances. They also tend to avoid play ins which I find particularly frustrating given they are effectively coin tosses (when you don’t just hand the other team outs).
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:12 PM EDT (#438640) #
Atkins and Shapiro deserve credit for assembling a strong pitching staff (even after Manoah went south). But something went seriously wrong on the offensive side this year. Power, patience, execution, baserunning. Pretty much every player regressed this year. And, as UO pointed out, this is not a young team.

I think the team missed having Jansen on the postseason roster. I would have liked to see him come to the plate in a few runners-on situations.
Magpie - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#438641) #
this is not a young team.

It''ll probably look a little younger when Belt, Kiermaier, Merrifield, Chapman, and Ryu move on.
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:17 PM EDT (#438642) #
Nope.  AA's teams are no different.  In 2021, they were  team like this year's Blue Jays (who could have won despite being far from the best team in baseball).  Over the years, Atlanta has a few times had a great team but still only won 2 World Series in the last 60 years.  After not winning for over 80 years, the Red Sox won 4 World Series in 15 years.  Bad luck for 80 years and good luck for 15. 

greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#438643) #
True. And we’ll probably see Tiedemann, Orelvis and Roden (among other prospects?) on the roster at some point next year.
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:19 PM EDT (#438644) #
There are just as many questions about Atkins as John Schneider.  The handling of Manoah- his slow demotion and quick return- had the FO's fingerprints on it too, for one thing. 
Petey Baseball - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:20 PM EDT (#438645) #
I felt a lot of meh about this '23 edition of the team, mostly because it was the second straight meh season from Guerrero Jr. I don't think the team can bank on him being elite, or even bouncing back to somewhere close to that MVP level he played at in '21. The teams needs an elite bat, maybe even two, to truly be a championship team along with keeping the pitching strong again.

I would definitely look to resign Jordan Hicks, but Belt, Chapman, Merrifield and Kiermaier failed to move the needle.

Obviously landing Ohtani would be a franchise altering accomplishment but there's just such a small chance of that happening despite Toronto being a realistic market for him.

Wouldn't mind if they changed managers. Schneider certainly hasn't distinguished himself much from his predecessor. But if they were able to add a couple more big bats or while keeping the pitching staff intact I could live with him another year.

Speaking of adding big bats, it looks like the team will need to either spend big in free agency or empty the prospect pool again in order to acquire said big bats. Very tough task.

And also, if the team wanted to move Atkins aside and hire more of a risk taking gunslinger as a GM I'd be fine with that too. Then again, with Atkins probably on his last leg (a la AA at the '15 deadline) Atkins may well decide to go for broke.

Should be an interesting post-mortem and offseason.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:23 PM EDT (#438646) #
they'll overcompensate for more offense in the offseason, only for the pitching and defense to then fall apart.

I expect Shapiro to be here for at least another decade, tho. Maybe he replaces Atkins and schneider with other errand boys, maybe not.
Glevin - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:35 PM EDT (#438647) #
This year is so much worse than last year because last year there was clear and obvious plan of action. Improve defense and bullpen. This year, the issue is fundamental. The core just isn't good enough. I don't know what the team can do. It's also hard for me to blame the front office. I'm fine if Atkins goes. The Jays have disappointed two years in a row, but what exactly could they have done differently? The free agent signings were good. Trades were fine. The supporting cast was good enough. By far the biggest issue is just Bo and Vlad going from 12 WAR to 5 WAR in what should be the prime of their careers. How do you deal with that? I have no idea.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:38 PM EDT (#438648) #
I think the "we'll fix it next year" approach might be the problem.
Magpie - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:38 PM EDT (#438649) #
Extension granted for the report cards, Magpie.

Gonna need it. I still have 19 players I need to think of something to say about. Plus the manager. Plus the GM.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:40 PM EDT (#438650) #
I say you do those report cards when your anger is fresh, Magpie!
John Northey - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#438651) #
So, how do the Jays get fans to forget that they are now 0-6 in the playoffs under the Vlad/Bo period? I'm guessing they go big this winter and chase Ohtani full throttle.
soupman - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#438652) #
We’ve all probably been on at least one side of a team choking. As fans we saw it in 2015 in front of our eyes. The Cubs blamed that fan for their choking. It isn’t simply “luck” that makes a team commit error after error in a single inning.

What “analytics” does is remove even more accountability. ‘Oh Schneider is doing what the analytics department framed up before and sticking to the plan’…so it’s not the manager, it’s just playing the percentages. Don’t worry if you don’t perform because…the numbers were against it. It’s evident to me that there’s no accountability from how Vlad plays. We can see he isn’t held to account. He acts like the game is entirely on him, but he doesn’t walk the walk because he’s never held to account. Now that I’ve seen the trailer, movie and sequel, I’m not sure I care to see any more.
soupman - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:49 PM EDT (#438653) #
Do you think Grichuk said nice things about us?
Magpie - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:57 PM EDT (#438654) #
when your anger is fresh

LOL!

I don't seem to get angry. I have never called for the team to fire the manager - and I was here for Jimy Williams! - and it took years and years and years before I finally called for Ricciardi's head (I think it was 2008.) Is it not important enough for me to get angry about? Am I really that old?

Granted, I had the secret suspicion all season long that this was a Team of Destiny precisely because everyone seemed to dislike them so much. This was a notion both utterly perverse and completely irresistible. I didn't dare say it out loud, but I did confess it to Eephus. Who snorted in disgust, and talked about how he hated this team!

Oh, and now I've told everyone. Oops.

But this is really the first time in recent years the experience of watching the Jays reminded me of watching them in the 1980s. The Glory Days of blessed memory! I wrote about this a while ago - but the 1980s were mostly year after year of frustration and disappointment. Why do these guys play so stupid? Why are their fundamentals so bad? Why do they always choke in a big situation?
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#438655) #
I would attempt to capitalize on Bichette and VGJ's perceived potential. One of them is probably going to be a Hall of Famer. But the chance that you.will get enough from the two of them over the next two years is pretty small.

Obviously you have to have willing buyers.

The chance that they are going to do this is, again, next to nothing. It's "risky" n terms of the finances and they are risk-averse. Except when it comes to silly use of "analytics".
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#438656) #
let the hate flow through you, Magpie!

maybe I can help:


Ages Next Year

* C Jansen 29
* DH Horwitz 26
* 1B Guerrero 25
* 2B Schneider 25
* SS Bichette 26
* 3B Espinal 29
* LF Biggio 29
* RF Springer 34
* CF Varsho 27

* UT
* IF Clement 28
* OF Lukes 29
* C Kirk 25



* SP Gausman 33
* SP Berrios 30
* SP Bassitt 35
* SP Kikuchi 33
* SP Manoah 26

* RP Romano 31
* RP Mayza 32
* RP Swanson 30
* RP Garcia 33
* RP Richards 31
* RP Cimber 33
* RP Cabrera 27
* RP Francis 28
Mike Green - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#438657) #
You didn't call for the team to fire Jimy Williams? Isn't this a corollary to the saying on the Globe's masthead "the subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures"? I was sure that this was just bafflegab to get us aware of the dangers of Jimy-One-M.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#438658) #

Whit Merrifield on #BlueJays taking José Berríos out early:

"I hated it, frankly. It's not what cost us the game, but it's the kind of baseball decisions that are taking away from managers and baseball, at this stage of the game."

— Mitch Bannon (@MitchBannon) October 5, 2023
uglyone - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 09:09 PM EDT (#438659) #
interesting that he hints that it wasn't really schneider's call.
Nigel - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#438660) #
That quote is interesting. I was just musing that that decision might have some fallout with Berrios and maybe some of the other players. If I was Berrios I’d be pretty upset about the message that pull sent about management’s confidence in me.
85bluejay - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#438661) #
The Jays exceeded my expectations - the team scored 1 more run than I predicted - Kudos and well done team!

Please subject us this winter to endless reams of analytic data that shows the Jays were a great offensive team - just darn unlucky!
greenfrog - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 09:45 PM EDT (#438662) #
On a positive note, I have a lot of respect for Jose Berrios, not only for how he pitched today, but also for what a model teammate he was throughout the game and during his post-game comments to the media.
Paul D - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#438663) #
The 2015 team did not choke.
John Northey - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 10:29 PM EDT (#438664) #
This team reminds me so much of 1989's in a couple of respects - a team that is damn good but has underperformed for years (or been perceived to) with some home grown stars who just seem to be unable to push to the next level. The question becomes what do you do to get to the next level, not just reaching the playoffs but getting to round 2 and beyond?

We are losing a lot this winter no matter what as I don't see them resigning all of Chapman, Belt, Merrifield, Ryu, Kiermaier, and Cimber (OK, minor one there). Ryu is 100% gone I figure, Chapman 90%, Merrifield 85%, Belt around 75%, Kiermaier around 40% (depends on other moves and evaluations), Cimber lands under 'who cares' as much as I enjoy a sidearmer.

In 1989 we started to see the team shift - Barfield traded, Moseby left as free agent, Whitt traded, Liriano traded in 1990, Cerutti & Flannagan gone after 1990 (free agent). Those guys were all key parts of some of the '83-89 teams that made the playoffs twice, and flopped in the final week of '87 (3 1/2 game lead with a week to go).

Now, this team is 2019-2023, or 5 years (4 contending), more like 1982-1986, or 3 years from going 'crap, time to break up the band'. 1986 was a very frustrating year, strong team that flopped and no one knew why - they just couldn't do anything right (sound familiar?) which they followed with a 'wow' year that ended in disappointment (96 wins wasn't enough then if another team won 98 in your division, but an 85 win team won it all). So do they wait until Vlad/Bo/Biggio go free agency or do they do the shift this winter or next? I guess it all depends on finding the right dance partner for a trade or getting that big free agent (Ohtani & Bellinger being the only hitters worth the cost) while still chasing down a 5th starter and seeing if the kids can take over at least one of 3B/2B/backup OF (Biggio/Espinal could cover 2 of those if needed, but that would land under 'oh crap').

Expect Schneider to get a shot in 2024, along with Eden having a shot at 4th OF (with others in the mix). It'll be an interesting winter with the dome getting the rest of the fixes put in place and Rogers needing a team that does more to justify the costs involved. Atkins will feel a lot more pressure much like Gillick did from '89-'92 after 'standing Pat' too long.
James W - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 10:41 PM EDT (#438665) #
Of course it wasn't Schneider's call.
John Northey - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#438666) #
In truth for the pitching if they had pulled Berrios after 3, then put in Kikuchi for up to 3, then whatever I'd have been good with that. It was letting Berrios start the 4th, give up a hit, then bringing in a starting pitcher instead of using one of the LH relievers who are used to that situation and letting Kikuchi get a clean inning instead that bugged me most.
Four Seamer - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 11:25 PM EDT (#438667) #
Good riddance to this season, and to Matt Chapman as well.
John Northey - Wednesday, October 04 2023 @ 11:26 PM EDT (#438668) #
FYI: Twitter is going nuts over this - demands for various peoples heads. From Shapiro to Atkins to Schneider mainly. But bottom line, no matter what those guys did this team scored 1 run over 2 playoff games. That won't win anything.

11 players used, Schneider left on the bench with the most potent bat (even factoring in his 0-31 stretch he still had a 1.007 OPS, #1 on the team). Speed demon Cam Eden left on the bench, and so was Heineman (811 OPS). Merrifield got in both games despite slumping badly at the end as well, and was 0-1 with a walk. Belt was 0-8 with 5 K's. Varsho 0-5 with 3 K's. How Bo got 4 hits in 8 ABs but didn't drive in a run is an inditement on the rest of the team. Positive surprise to me was Espinal going 2-2.

Pitching wise - Gausman being the worst was a surprise, 3 runs in 4 innings, Kikuchi was 2nd worst with his 5.40 ERA and letting the runner on first for Berrios come around to score. The pen was 'wow' though (outside of Kikuchi who isn't really a reliever) 7 1/3 IP with 0 R, 3 H 6 BB (3 Swanson), 11 K's. 10 of the 12 pitchers were used, with Bassitt and Richards the only ones left on the bench - no complaints on that part.

The Jays did improve where they wanted to - pitching and defense. Now to regain some of that offense this winter.
Polite Nate - Thursday, October 05 2023 @ 12:25 AM EDT (#438669) #
I think Dan Szymborski has it pegged tonight at Fangraphs: "When you lose 2–0, I’d submit that the offense is always primarily at fault, not any pitching change; with zero runs, the Jays wouldn’t have done any worse if Mayor McCheese had relieved Berríos. But history isn’t written by the losers and is definitely unconcerned with being fair, and Game 2 of the 2023 AL Wild Card Series will always be the Yusei Kikuchi Game."
There's a phrase you hear a lot these days around baseball, and that's "trust the process". Kikuchi coming in when he did was clearly part of the script based on his warmup routine throughout the game. The point of a process is to protect you from your gut because your gut will lead you astray just as often as it will lead you to success.

Here's something I haven't seen anyone notice. And maybe someone else will go watch a replay to confirm this for me. But the first batter Kikuchi faces, who reaches base and advances Lewis to 2nd. And there was a fleeting moment on the SportsNet broadcast, where Lewis leans in to say something to Bo above the crowd noise. And Bo gives him a look that I cannot interpret as meaning anything but "Yeah, man, I dunno...". 
I don't *know* what Lewis said, but I would bet good money it was something like, "Why on earth did you guys pull Berrios?"
But still, they don't have a tie-breaker that lets you win a baseball game 0-0. But at least I can now shove the 2023 Blue Jays into the face of everyone who insists that "pitching and defence wins championships". Dingers. Dingers win championships and this has been true since Babe Ruth and don't let anyone ever tell you different.
Eephus - Thursday, October 05 2023 @ 12:59 AM EDT (#438670) #
Good riddance to this season, and to Matt Chapman as well.

I feel strongly towards the former. The latter... I doubt we find anyone nearly as good to replace him but yeah, shake hands, pat on the back and best of luck out there.

Legitimately can't quite grip how bizarre all of this was. Plenty of blame to go around and axes will be ground if you're into that kind of thing... but from a detached point of view it's simply absurd how they botched situations in this game. Like overthinking and underthinking collided, and I while I'm somewhat peeved, discouraged at their various abilities of ill-timed baserunning whimsy, occasional ineptitude and well a baseball season is like almost..... is almost... almost.. al...  yeah no what the #@#% is going on here. Just..... wow.
Michael - Thursday, October 05 2023 @ 01:59 AM EDT (#438671) #
If you could have taken the Twins to only score 5 runs in the series, I think you'd take that.

The Jays also had more hits than the twins in the series: Blue Jays 15 hits, Twins 12 hits. The Twins had more of the walks 12 BB to 5 BB for Jays. On the pitching side, the Jays pitchers had 21 KO, the Twins had 19 KO.

It was pretty even overall when you look at those components other than the facts the Jays left more runners on, made more outs on the base path, and failed to score as many.
StephenT - Thursday, October 05 2023 @ 02:15 AM EDT (#438672) #
MLB Network says it is replaying Jay@Twins Game 2 at 9pm ET Thursday (9-11pm I think).

I've set my PVR in hopes of hearing some MKay/ARod commentary.
ISLAND BOY - Thursday, October 05 2023 @ 05:37 AM EDT (#438673) #
Being a Blue Jay and Maple Leaf fan, I'm really starting to detest the playoffs. To me what the Jays need is a game breaker. They need that fearsome bat that crushes a home run at a pivotal point in the game, not hit into a double play. They need that bat behind Vlad and Bo to make them better players, but how they get this big bat I have no idea.

It wasn't the Twins that beat the Jays. The Jays beat the Jays. You shouldn't get swept having 5 runs total scored against you in 2 games. It was the pitchers that got them into the playoffs and the hitters just did what they did all season - struggle against good pitching, fail to get the big hit with men on base, make mistakes when they do get on base. It is almost hilarious, if not predictable, that all these things were on display in the two playoff games.

I just hope the Jays don't do what the Leafs continue to do year after year, make small changes around the edges of the roster and hope things will turn out different. It's not going to happen.
scottt - Thursday, October 05 2023 @ 07:47 AM EDT (#438674) #
Early on, Buck was lamenting that they were swinging on pitchers' pitches.
That was a really bad take on it. Gray was throwing on the corners and it was better to have a whack at it early on then when there is 2 strikes and he's throwing balls that are close to the strike zone.

Belt was 0-8. Biggio had similar problems. Against good pitching if you wait for a good pitch to hit you might never get one. Biggio stared at several breaking balls over the middle of the plate.

You can win without the homeruns, but I think you need a team that runs the bases well and steal lots of bases.
Varsho 0-5 with Ks. Should have been pulled for the last AB, I think.

It's clear that everyone has figured out that Chapman and KK are really good fastball hitters and don't throw them any. Not even the 103mph ones. So when I look at the production we got from them, I remember that a lot of it came early and I don't know if it would every come back.

They still need that elusive middle of the lineup left bat. I hear that Soto is available, but I shudder at the price.

bpoz - Thursday, October 05 2023 @ 07:52 AM EDT (#438675) #
I too am frustrated but will not rant if I can help it.

I do think we should have a discussion on the Analytics team. Maybe Magpie would consider putting them in his report card. Schneider is the middle manager or messenger. So this is not his fault. Merrifield basically said that Schneider was not making the decisions.

Pull Berrios early! UO was correct in claiming all season that the SP was pulled too early. But then somehow our pitching was very good. Hitting the ball the other way is good for those that can do that well not for those whose strength is pulling the ball. These are examples.

Bochy in Texas probably demanded that he manage his own game. I don't know. Others too like Melvin in SD.
Jonny German - Thursday, October 05 2023 @ 07:58 AM EDT (#438676) #
The Immaculate Grid has a cruel sense of humour, with Jays, Rays, and Brewers all represented today. Plus the Twins, for extra Toronto spite.

I scored 0.4% in the Twins-Jays box. My guy was acquired in a mid-season trade for a guy who got MVP votes as a Twin, and he was shipped out in the offseason for a guy who was an All Star as a Jay.
soupman - Thursday, October 05 2023 @ 08:39 AM EDT (#438677) #
The Rangers did. And the star player delivered.
Wild Card, Gme 2 | 238 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.