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Short Fat Fanny is on the loose


One last road series, and then homeward bound. To play out the string.


I want to talk about tonight's starter. You've probably noticed that Jose Berrios has already established a new career high with his 16 Wins. To this point he's also posted a career best 3.44 ERA. This has not been a typical Berrios season, but possibly not for the reasons you might expect. What strikes me is how much this current season has in common with the often ugly results we saw from him in 2022.

In his eight full seasons, since 2017, Berrios has generally been right around the league average in striking out hitters - the MLB average is 22.4% of the hitters, and Berrios' career mark is 22.7%. He's averaged at least 8.5 Ks per 9 innings over his career. This year, however, his K's were all the way down to 7.0 per 9. The only other time he failed to fan at least 8.5 per 9 over a full season was in 2022, when he was down to 7.9 per 9. Those are the only times he's failed to strike out at least 22% of the opposition, being down around 19% on both occasions.

Berrios has also been right around the MLB average in allowing Home Runs - 1.2 per 9 innings, a homer in 3.3% of the Plate Appearances. The two years when he gave up more long balls? That would be 2022 and 2024, iallowing a career high 29 HRs (so far) both times, 3.9% of opposition Plate Appearances..

What's going on?

It's the Balls In Play, of course. Over his career, the opposition has hit .291 on their Balls In Play against Berrios, which is mighty close to the MLB average of .295 over this period. You can probably guess which two years deviate quite sharply from that established level - in 2022, the opposition hit a robust .329 on their Balls In Play, which in combination with the additional Home Runs helped generate that ugly 5.23 ERA. The HRs haven't hurt nearly so much this season when the opposition, for whatever reason, is hitting only .250 on their Balls In Play. Hence the career best ERA.

Another thing. I don't think Berrios is anybody's idea of a true ace. I think he's generally regarded as a quality starting pitcher who always gives his teams a chance to win. And they do. The Blue Jays have  played .632 ball in his 108 starts for Toronto, a figure no one in franchise history even comes close to matching, and I'll bet no one even suspected that to be the case. But there have been 32 pitchers who have started 75 games for the Blue Jays, and here is how the team has fared in each man's starts:

Pitcher          STARTS   W      L    PCT     Rest of Team
                
Jose Berrios    106    67    39    .632 .521
Doyle Alexander    103    63    40    .612 .573
David Wells    138    83    55    .601 .543
Mark Buehrle    97    58    39    .598 .494
Roy Halladay    287   171   116    .596 .487
Alek Manoah    75    44    31    .587 .533
Jimmy Key    250   145   105    .580 .560
A.J. Burnett    80    45    35    .563 .549

Mike Flanagan    76    42    34    .553 .559
Dave Stieb    408   225   183    .551 .501
Kevin Gausman    91    50    41    .549 .527
Brandon Morrow    93    51    42    .548 .488
J.A. Happ    127    69    58    .543 .472
Juan Guzman    195   105    90    .538 .503
Shaun Marcum    95    51    44    .537 .524
Pat Hentgen    238   127   111    .534 .472

John Cerutti    108    57    51    .528 .551
Todd Stottlemyre   175    91    84    .520 .557
Luis Leal    151    78    73    .517 .499
Kelvim Escobar    101    52    49    .515 .520
Marco Estrada    120    61    59    .508 .508
Ricky Romero    127    64    63    .504 .480
Marcus Stroman    129    64    65    .496 .476
Jim Clancy    344   168   176    .488 .471

R.A. Dickey    130    63    67    .485 .533
Ted Lilly    89    43    46    .483 .482
Chris Carpenter    135    63    72    .467 .509
Aaron Sanchez    92    42    50    .457 .496
Josh Towers    89    39    50    .438 .506
Woody Williams    76    33    43    .434 .500
Dave Lemanczyk    82    29    53    .354 .362
Jesse Jefferson    91    32    59    .352 .362

All things are not created equal, which is the point of that final column which gives the team's winning percentage when some other guy was starting. As you can see,. Berrios has pitched for better teams than, say, Roy Halladay did during his Blue Jays career.  But even so, Berrios has risen further above his teams than Doc was able to do, and the fact that they were better teams actually increases the degree of difficulty. The Jays played .521 ball when Berrios wasn't the starter - their winning percentage improved .111 when he took the mound. Halladay comes so close that he essentially matches that performance - teams that played .487 ball behind the other starters improved by .109 when Doc was the starter. Mark Buehrle is the only other starter in the same area code as Berrios and Halladay, although Happ, Hentgen, Morrow, Wells, Manoah and Stieb were also significantly better than the rest of the team. (Woody Williams and Josh Towers were significantly worse; Marco Estrada and Ted Lilly was almost a perfect match.)

I am of course afraid that now I've gone and put a hex on him. All I can say in my defense is that it's 2024, so who cares, anyway?

Matchups

Fri 20 Sep - Berrios (16-9, 3.44) vs TBD
Sat 21 Sep - Rodriguez (1-6, 4.29) vs Bradley (6-11, 4.39)
Sun 22 Sep - Bassitt (10-13, 4.16) vs Baz (3-3, 4.21)

Toronto at Tampa Bay, September 20-22 | 67 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Ducey - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#452775) #
We will see if the curse of the Trop continues.

Continuing the discussion from the last game thread, the bullpen might be fine without many additions.

Keepers:

1. Cabrera
2. Green
3. Swanson (he is pitching much better recently)
4. Little

Maybes:

5. Nance
6. Romano

Some assembly required:
7. Pop
8. Burr
9. Danner
10. Macko

Just a guy - 40 man, but could be on waivers any second:

Robertson
Tate
Ramirez
De Geus
Eisert
Frias
Lucas

AAA roster not on 40 man, some hope:
Schultz
Quinones
Fluharty
Bash
Juenger
Cooke
Pardinho

You might cycle through some of these guys for an upgrade, but I'd only add one or two FA relievers.

You just dont know who is going to be good/ healthy next year.
Glevin - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 12:23 PM EDT (#452777) #
Keepers:

1. Cabrera
2. Green
3. Swanson (he is pitching much better recently)
4. Little


Nothing about Cabrera says keeper. Horrible K/BB ratio, bad underlying numbers, and not improving in second half. (His XFIP has been 4.40-4.90 basically every year of his career). Little too isn't a keeper. He's been not bad but you don't keep a guy who has been not bad for a few innings. Cabrera and Little have combined for -0.9 FWAR. These guys can compete for a spot and Jays can hope they can be more, sure, but these aren't the kind of guys Jays should be having in their bullpen if they want to succeed. (Closest is probably Burr who can at least K some guys). They need to get a closer-type, another 7th/8th inning sort of guy, and some other legitimate options to vie for spots in spring.
soupman - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#452778) #
Yimi might be a good guy to bring back. He's been bad since the trade, but was consistently good-great in a Jays uniform for 3 years. He's 33 now, so maybe it's the end of the road, but seems like a reasonable bet and I assume a reunion would be welcome on both sides.

There will be guys - I think this year injuries to the back end really hurt the bullpen. Romano is coming back, Swanson looks better. Green has been good - he's had 3 bad outings, all of them in September. his last few outings have been fine. maybe just shut him down while confidence is back.

I don't think the jays pen repeats as the worst in baseball next year. just as I didn't think it was nearly as good as it was last year.

Romano has been an underrated asset. hopefully he returns to form. he's been great at converting saves, while never looking totally dominant...I definitely under rate him because I always expect the worst, but he comes through. maybe a case of someone that somehow outperforms the underlying predictive metrics...you love to see it...except with the closer that always seems to load the bases to start the inning and then eek out the save by the skin of his teeth. love the result but not the process, I guess.
SK in NJ - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 02:58 PM EDT (#452780) #
"the bullpen might be fine without many additions."


I feel the exact opposite. The team needs to upgrade practically every spot in the pen this winter. Green is the only keeper, and that's only because the Jays have $10.5M reasons to keep him in 2025. The only RP's on the team with a positive WAR this season are Yimi (0.8), Burr (0.2), and Tate (0.1) who has only thrown 1 inning. Literally every other RP they have tried this season is either at 0 or negative WAR. I haven't looked it up, but this might be one of the worst pens in franchise history. It's that bad.

Green, Swanson, and then find upgrades everywhere else, IMO.
Magpie - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#452781) #
I haven't looked it up, but this might be one of the worst pens in franchise history.

I'm planning to look it up once the season's over! But I agree - Green and Swanson I feel okay about, solid depth relievers. I hope Romano is back to being himself. And that's about it, going forward.
uglyone - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 03:41 PM EDT (#452782) #
I actually would bet on Romano / Green / Swanson being a solid group of relievers next year again.

But i wouldn't bet the house on it.


the rest of the names.....meh, who knows. all absolute lottery tickets. keep them replace them whatever - probably need a scouting upgrade to start picking out the right arms i dunno.

I think Yariel and Yarborough could give some nice depth to the pen too.



scottt - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#452783) #
Since all the free agents are already gone, they will have to drop a few relievers before the rule 5 crush.

There is also a chance that Bo has already played his last game in a Jays uniform.
It all depends on what teams will be offering.
Nigel - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#452784) #
Swanson is 30 and has had 5 full or partial MLB seasons of sufficient length to matter. In that span, he's had one year (2022) of being an elite/high leverage reliever, one year (last year) of being a pretty good/medium leverage reliever and three years of being somewhere between ok for low leverage innings and a dumpster fire. I'm not betting on him for next year but he has looked better recently so he'd be in the mix of guys that you throw at the wall to see what sticks.
lexomatic - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#452787) #
If you take the non expansion starters with the worst team win % Happ, Hentgen,Romero, Stroman, Clancy would give you a terrible bullpen to bring the team win % back down to about 475.
greenfrog - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#452788) #
Here’s a question. Why are many if not most relievers so variable from year to year? I seem to remember there was some suggestion that relievers who get overworked one year commonly have performance and/or health issues the next year.

Obviously this phenomenon doesn’t apply to all relievers, as some are pretty consistently good from year to year.
Kelekin - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 07:19 PM EDT (#452789) #
There's enough good bullpen options in FA that I do hope we consider 2-3 arms.

Not including closers, any of the following would be solid, steady options:

Likely 1-Yr:
Chris Martin
Daniel Hudson
Blake Treinen

Likely 2-Yr:
Tommy Kahnle
Brent Suter
Andrew Kittredge
Paul Seward
Yimi Garcia

Likely 3-Yr:
A.J. Minter
Jeff Hoffman
Aaron Bummer
Jose Leclerc
uglyone - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 07:22 PM EDT (#452790) #
"Why are many if not most relievers so variable from year to year?"

The answer is probably the boring one: small sample random variation
Gerry - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 07:23 PM EDT (#452791) #
That was interesting about Berrios's win percentage. I was thinking recently that when Berrios is going to start you assume the Jays have a good chance to win. He seems the steadiest of the starters, I would assume with the lowest volatility between his good and bad starts. Other than Roy, obviously, I think of Buehrle who nearly always gave the Jays a good start.
Nigel - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#452792) #
I think uo has that right. Relievers are throwing 60 innings or so a year. Take any sample size of 60 innings from most starters and you'd find some pretty wide swings - and I think that becomes more likely the farther away from being elite (where most 60 game samples will be good) the pitcher is (which sums up the vast majority of relievers).
Magpie - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#452793) #
Relievers are throwing 60 innings or so a year.

It also means that two bad weeks can poison your numbers for the whole season. Consider Chad Green, who allowed 9 runs all season, from March through the end of August. Then he allowed 11 runs in two weeks in five September games.
soupman - Friday, September 20 2024 @ 08:45 PM EDT (#452796) #
Leclerc might be a nice bounce-back candidate. seems to have been hurt by bad luck this year. K-rate is back up over 12. Hoffman would be a nice reunion. Treinen has been effective despite lower velocity coming off shoulder surgery.
John Northey - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 12:43 AM EDT (#452798) #
For the pen, coming into today, BR has the relief stats split from starter stats so lets see what we had...
  • 2 with 50+ IP: Cabrera, Green (Pop might get there)
  • 4 with 40-49 IP: Richards, Pop, Little, Pearson
  • 2 in the 30's: Swanson, Garcia
  • 4 in the 20's: Francis, Burr, Mayza, Yarbrough
  • 3 in the 10's: Nance, Romano, White
  • 9 under 10 IP: Parsons, Yerry Rodriguez, Eisert, Espino, Frias, Cuas, IKF, Tate, and Clement.
So a total of 24 relievers used, 22 were actual pitchers (3 IP by the 2 hitters pitching allowing 2 runs out of the 305 the pen allowed so far).

If pre-season you said those top 8 for IP would be the top 8 in IP in relief you'd have gone 'oh crap' and been right. Especially considering Little, Pearson, and Swanson all had time in AAA due to non-injury reasons, and Richards & Garcia were traded away in July yet still are among the 8 most IP in relief despite that. Last year 3 guys had 60+ IP (Swanson, Garcia, and Richards), with Romano & Mazya in the 50's - Mayza, Romano, and Swanson all sub 3 for ERA. To get to 8 you added in Pearson, Francis, and Jay Jackson. Sadly Jackson had a horrid year - released July 26th (June 20th was his last pro game this year - was demoted and put on the inactive list). Kinda disappointed the Jays didn't give him a call after that given how desperate our pen was/still is. Maybe he just didn't want to try again at that point, as he did have a bad year (giving up HR at a very high pace, over 2 per 9 IP). Next on the IP list was Jordan Hicks who looked great here but demanded to be a starter when signed by the Giants - but after 20 starts with a 4.01 ERA (last 9 starts 40 2/3 IP 6.42 ERA) and now is back in the pen (9 games, 4.91 ERA 1 save, 2 holds, 0 blown, 947 OPS against). So those 2 who were so effective for us last year sucked this year for the teams they were on.

It is scary if you dig into the relievers of last year and see how they did this year. Cimber went from bad to horrid (7.03 ERA), Bass didn't get any bites, White sucked worse for 2 more teams than he did here, Hatch was Meh for Pittsburgh (113 ERA+ 3 holds, 0 saves, 1 blown), Thornton was decent for Seattle then slumped (97 ERA+ now 10 holds, 1 save, 0 blown), Mayza has a 99 ERA+ for the Yanks, Richards a 103 ERA+ for the Twins, Garcia 9 IP, 6 ER for Seattle before getting hurt.
scottt - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 06:50 AM EDT (#452799) #
Cimber and Richards were major parts of the Jays bullpen philosophy. Get guys with "different looks".
What they are missing is high velocity. Pearson was a candidate to produce that but could never settle down.
Pop was effective today because the strike zone was huge. Might explain the low scoring.
I was hoping we'd have a look a Danner at some point.
Apparently, Barger is confident he could throw 100mph.

Mayza was a huge piece of the pen.

Bass is a weird story. If you want to play for a team, you can't be publicly involved in boycotts of major sponsors.
I'm surprised that no one picked him up. I guess his numbers were good enough to bother.
He's also the guy who couldn't get an out in 22 in the blow up playoff game.

In other news, Baltimore is struggling and has dropped 5 games behind the Yankees and just one game ahead of KC.
The Tigers are now just one game behind the Twins.





greenfrog - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 09:55 AM EDT (#452800) #
The Yankees have had about 18 WAR this year from Judge and Soto combined. Remarkable. The Padres are also in postseason contention and Michael King has been a strong SP for them, so it hasn’t been a bad trade for them, either.
bpoz - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 10:11 AM EDT (#452801) #
Rebuilding the pen will be a great discussion in the off season. Atkins has a very big job ahead of him it seems.

My understanding of relievers from the discussion so far and other sources is.

1) They are inconsistent from 1 year to the next.

2) I got lucky enough to hear an interview where H Danner said even if you throw 105 mph you absolutely need something elso to compliment that. Van Eyk and Jon Harris had FBs that were too straight. Fluharty has a FB under 90 mph but so did Buehrle.

So evaluating what you are getting is extremely difficult.
John Northey - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#452802) #
The Yankees are VERY reliant on those 2 aren't they? Yankee hitters have 31.1 fWAR total, Soto & Judge = 18.1 fWAR, meaning they got just 13 WAR from the other 11 hitters. Not hard to imagine the Yankees having a nightmare 2025 if Soto leaves and Judge gets hurt (just 4 seasons with 120+ games in his career so not a stretch to assume he gets hurt), #3 in WAR for them is Austin Wells at 3.6 - a drop of 4.3 from Soto. For comparison Vlad has 120+ in every year but 2020 (5 times) and played all 60 games in 2020 (Judge played just 28 that year).

I'd say the Yankees have a massive incentive to resign Soto, except they have shown themselves to be very determined to cut costs by pushing their name brand on players (Judge, DJ LeMahieu both signed for less than they were offered elsewhere). Btw, remember when many here wanted the Jays to sign LeMahieu after 2020 but before 2021? By fWAR he has been worth 2.1-3.1-1.2-(0.5) fWAR since. Yuck. Instead the Jays signed Springer 2.6-4.1-1.8-1.4 clearly a better choice. Springer 2 years left at $22.5 per, LeMahieu $15 mil per for 2 more years. Neither looks good for those last 2 years, but at least Springer looks to be on the positive side of WAR.

Btw, the Jays have 21.9 WAR from their hitters, just shy of 10 less than the Yankees. Puts them 11th in the majors. Vlad at 5.3 is 24% of it, Judge 33% of the Yanks. #2 is Varsho at 3.3 with Kirk & IKF also at or above 2 (IKF with just the Jays). Hmm...have the Jays ever had a big 2 then drop of 4 WAR? 2000 was Delgado 7.4, Stewart 4.9, Fletcher 2.8 - so over a 2 point spread for 2nd to 3rd but not at the Yankee 2024 level. 2011 had a big drop from Bautista 8.1 to #2 Escobar 3.6, but never anything that is close to the Yankee spread on a pure hitter vs hitter basis where 2 are everything.
scottt - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#452804) #
I remember that Bichette was pushing for the Jays to sign LeMahieu.
greenfrog - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#452805) #
Bichette also wanted the Blue Jays to add Turner (1.1 fWAR) and JD Martinez (0.6 fWAR) this past off-season. He should probably focus on playing as opposed to recommending personnel moves.

One thing that makes MLB great is the surprise performances that occur every year. Bowden Francis has been one for the Blue Jays. Profar is another — 638 PA and 4.2 fWAR for the Padres. He was viewed as one of the least-desirable FA additions in the off-season.
Chuck - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#452806) #
Btw, remember when many here wanted the Jays to sign LeMahieu after 2020 but before 2021?

There is always a temptation to sign guys over 30 despite the understanding of general aging curves. Sometimes it's the cost of doing business, signing a guy like Springer knowing he may only be good for a couple of years but then not so much later in the contract. Sometimes it is the willing delusion that this guy is different and will age better than other guys in their 30s.

LeMahieu came off his career best year when he signed with NY (for the 2nd time), followed that with an incredible but brief 2020 season, and then started inching his way towards a cliff he has perhaps fallen off of for good. Teoscar just matched his career best year. Will he magically age like Molitor or instead like most every other 30+ guy? There will be suggestions around here that he is the cleanup guy the team is looking for.

Chuck - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 02:09 PM EDT (#452807) #
Not hard to imagine the Yankees having a nightmare 2025 if Soto leaves and Judge gets hurt

Agree entirely. That said, I think they will sign Soto. They have to. Now, one could also spin this reliance on the two stars by arguing that they just now need to slightly elevate the supporting cast, something they could do cheaply with a handful of ho-hum 2-WAR players in the appropriate spots. I think Chisholm will become the team's CF meaning that halfway competent players at 1B and 3B would go a long way.

Glevin - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#452808) #
Yankees have a lot of long term issues. They have massive contracts to a bunch of players and a lot of holes. I mean, they're at 90 wins with Soto and Judge having 18 WAR. That's an insane number which will very likely never be repeated. If they sign Soto, which is likely, they have no money to upgrade or re-sign playes at 1B/2B/closer which are all weak. I mean, even signing him would give them an insane tax. Every year will be a bit tougher for a bit too as Stanton becomes more and more useless and Judge and Cole age and decline.
Magpie - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 03:21 PM EDT (#452809) #
even signing [Soto] would give them an insane tax.

There is, of course, another New York team that is quite willing to spend freely, but they also have $173 million coming off the books this winter.
krose - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#452810) #
I like the look of this lineup. There is potential for this to be close to a regular lineup against righties. Varsho will likely be in CF.
krose - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#452812) #
Are the Jays playing Springer to showcase him for an offseason trade? He’s killing them in this lineup.
uglyone - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 06:24 PM EDT (#452813) #
horrible camera decisions on that Kirk triple there.
scottt - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 06:31 PM EDT (#452814) #
The lineup is made according to seniority.
This way players don't stress over it.
Guerrero is great. Horwitz is good. Lukes is hot.
The others all suck, no OPS over .700.
Magpie - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 07:00 PM EDT (#452815) #
Kirk hit a triple? Did someone fall down?
hypobole - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#452817) #
"Are the Jays playing Springer to showcase him for an offseason trade?"

I've had to demote people in the past. There's always been some level of pushback. But the stronger the case, the easier the decision.

Letting Springer fail now when games don't matter will make it easier to move him down the lineup and cut his playing time next year when when winning does matter.

They are definitely not showcasing him for trade. He's worth the same negative value whether or not he plays.
Gerry - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 09:05 PM EDT (#452818) #
Kirk hit a triple? Did someone fall down?

Looked like the ball got lost in the lights.
John Northey - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 10:42 PM EDT (#452819) #
Bullpens are a nightmare - look at the Jays, barely any turnover in the offseason from 2023-2024 but the pen's fWAR went from +4.6 to -2.8. 2017 was a 5.9 but 1.9 in 2018 despite 2015/2016 both being over 3 fWAR - so 3 years of solid to great to 'meh', or heck, look at 2012-2018 in order 2.3-3.9-1.2-3.4-3.1-5.9-1.9 - 2 solid pens, then a big drop in 2014 before climbing back up.

So by fWAR the top Jays pens were 1989 at 8.9 (Ward/Henke at peak), 1986 7.6 (Eichhorn's legendary 157 IP 1.72 ERA season), 1993 6.2 (WS), 1991 6.1 (Ward/Henke again). This century it is 2017 at 5.9 (proof a great pen doesn't win titles). 1992 was 10th (at 4.4), 2015 18th (3.4), 2016 19th (3.1). The worst is this year at -2.8, then 1984 at -1.1. Other negatives were 1979 and 1977.

So how did the pen go from #8 on the Jays all time list in 2023 to dead last in 2024 (48th)? Injuries and ineffectiveness. Romano gone was the linchpin - suddenly everyone had to move up a slot. Swanson nearly losing his son in spring probably helped lead to his horrid year (hard to work when something like that happens). 5 LHP used in the pen, all had fWAR of 0.0 or worse with Cabrera the bottom at -0.5, then Little at -0.4. Mayza was 'just' -0.2 (sure felt a lot worse). Suggests the bottom for those guys wasn't reached in results this year but could show up next. So a LH reliever should be a high priority this winter. Yimi Garcia was easily the best at 0.8 before leaving, then Ryan Burr (!) at 0.3, and Dillion Tate at 0.1. Yuck. That was as good as it got so far. 2023 had Mayza, Garcia and Romano at 1.0+, and Swanson at 0.8. Just 3 negatives - Pearson, Pop, and Cimber - Pop the only one still here now but probably not here in 2025.

So 2025 - you gotta sign a lot of guys who have solid #'s below the surface, but not visible (ie: ERA bad) so they aren't as expensive. David Robertson fits that - 3.22 ERA, vs xFIP of 2.77 but won't be cheap as most know he is a solid performer and at his stage will go where he feels is best for his family (so close to home which wouldn't be Toronto, unless the Jays overpay in years or $$$). Robert Garcia in Washington stands out more - 4.37 ERA vs 2.81 xFIP but Washington has him pre-arb still at age 28 this year so odds are low he'd be available. Declan Cronin in Miami also ERA over 4, FIP sub 3 (xFIP 3.40) but again, pre-arb. Strangely no reliever has 3+ fWAR this year - peak is Cade Smith in Cleveland at 2.6. Hrm. It will be hard to find good bargains this winter. This is where scouting might be critical to determine who has the best arm/ability to throw often in the pen without blowing it out.
Michael - Saturday, September 21 2024 @ 11:52 PM EDT (#452821) #
"Kirk hit a triple? Did someone fall down?"

Yeah, the rf lost it in the lights and then fell down and the cf had to come in to field it in more or less straight away rf. It was indeed Kirk's first career triple.

There were also a couple of nice throw outs by Kirk both of a guy trying to steal second and also a pick off after a strike out to get the guy on third to slow to return to the bag after his lead.

Kirk's defense is really quite strong between the framing and the throwing now.
John Northey - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 04:34 AM EDT (#452825) #
Hey now, Kirk did hit 2 triples in the minors. Ages 19 and 20 rookie ball and A (Lansing). Heck, he even had 5 stolen bases (!) Yes, baseball is funny at times.
BlueJayWay - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 09:21 AM EDT (#452826) #
The Kirk triple

https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2024/2024-09/21/beaa15f1-601bc530-21bb834a-csvm-diamondgcp-asset_1280x720_59_4000K.mp4
bpoz - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#452827) #
IMO the Jays have not played meaningful games since sometime in June. This years revenue will emphasize to ownership important numbers that were affected by the type of year we were having. Which was out of playoff contention early and so prepare for some kind of rebuild starting with trades at the deadline. The deadline goals were to get under the luxury tax and also acquire some players that could be useful.

The above player movements were actions rather than words. I have not heard any words on the goals for 2025 yet. Actions will tell the story not words IMO.

Other teams also made moves at the trade deadline. Detroit traded J Flaherty which weakened the team. Detroit teams should be very angry. Atkins has never done a move like that.
John Northey - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 12:46 PM EDT (#452828) #
The Jays have a solid 33,375 per game average attendance for a park that now holds just 41,148 (max attendance this year - July 25th vs Tampa, a weekday day game). Due to the seat limits they hit 40k just 4 times (opening day - always a sellout - had 40,069 fans, suggesting about 1k seats were freebies for assorted player families/league requirements/sponsor requirements/media). The other 2 were a game in June and one on July 28th. Flip side was games under 25k which happened 4 times as well. Worst was April 10th (a Wednesday) 22,960 there. The other 3 were Monday Jun 3, Tuesday Sep 3, and Wednesday Sep 4. Last 2 vs the Phillies (guess the 1993 rivals from the WS don't draw anymore after 30+ years). September has averaged 28,964 per game over 8 games (all NL opponents, 30k+ for all 3 vs St Louis, Mets couldn't crack 30k).

Last September with a dull/frustrating team fighting for the playoffs the Jays averaged 35,978 per game (16 games). Just 3 games under 30k, one under 25k (Sept 11, a Monday vs Texas), 7 games over 40k, peak for opener vs Tampa on the final weekend 42,394 (the Jays final win of 2023).

Of course, attendance could be worse - Tampa's biggest crowd was opening day vs the Jays at a horrid 25,025 (that I guess is their new maximum at the worst park in MLB) with just 16 cracking 20k, but at least they never dropped below 10k this year. Oakland's biggest was 37,551 (Giants - so fans crossed the river to see the game). 18 games sub 5,000. Ouch. For comparison the Expos final season they peaked at 31,395 and were sub 5k 13 times.
scottt - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 01:00 PM EDT (#452829) #
I don't know what words you're expecting about the the goals for 2025.
It's pretty clear that they need to improve the pen and the offense. Top free agents have been asking for very large contracts and not so top free agents have been willing to sit until people get injured in April rather than take a pay cut.
As words go, I suggest a silent prayer.
Magpie - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#452830) #
Detroit traded J Flaherty which weakened the team. Detroit teams should be very angry.

Except they've gone 29-17 since the trade, are suddenly half a game out of going to the post-season, and one of the players they got back from the Dodgers in exchange for Flaherty - who will be a free agent this winter - has provided an immediate upgrade at shortstop in place of the disaster that was Javier Baez. I would figure Tigers fans haven't been this happy in years.
bpoz - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 02:07 PM EDT (#452831) #
Your facts are correct Magpie. My facts may not be correct. 1) Detroit was 3 games under 500 when the trade was made which to me means they were still in the playoff hunt and should be buyers. 2) They played .630 ball since the trade which is fantastic. Personally I cannot accept it as something long term but 46 games is almost 30% of the season. Maybe Trey Sweeny was the missing ingredient. 3) J Hicks, G Cabrera and D Schneider helped the Jays get into the playoffs last year so this J Flaherty trade maybe is the reason.

I meant Detroit fans not team so you correctly understood my meaning.
Magpie - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#452832) #
This bullpen, man. It's got to be so discouraging to the other eighteen guys.
Magpie - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#452833) #
Davis Schneider now 1 for his last 18.

Those three games were fun.
scottt - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#452834) #
Yeah, I don't think the other guys should be discouraged because the pen let the other teams score a run or two.
They are losing right now because the position players are not scoring runs, not because of the pen.They scored 2 yesterday, 1 the day before. Before that they won 4-0 and before lost  0-2. There was an 8-13 lost in Texas but besides that, they almost always win when they score 4 or more.
Magpie - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 04:10 PM EDT (#452835) #
Spoke too soon!
Magpie - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#452836) #
It is, of course, a self-enforcing vicious circle. This team has trouble scoring runs, so it's naturally discouraging when the they actually score a run, take a lead or tie the game, and the bullpen instantly gives it back. But it's awful to be a relief pitcher on a team that seldom gives you any breathing room, where there's never much margin for error.
Magpie - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#452837) #
they almost always win when they score 4 or more.

Well, sort of. They generally need to score 5. Compare with today's opponent:

 Runs     Tor       TB 

4         4-8      10-7
5        21-4      13-4
6         8-1       6-2
7         9-1       7-2
8         5-3       6-0
9         8-0       6-0
10+       4-1       6-0
scottt - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#452838) #
Since the trade deadline, they are 3-1 when scoring 4 runs.
They really need more offense.
John Northey - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#452839) #
Well, good news is they kept coming back. Bad news is they couldn't do it enough times to win due to the leaky pen.

Updated Draft situation: The Jays now are 73-83 with 6 games to go - most wins possible is 79 so if they win all and everyone ahead of them loses all or enough to not pass 79, they'd be tied with StL and the Cubs for 13th worst record (Jays would be #14 I think as Jays were 1-2 vs Cubs and 3-0 vs Cards) most losses possible is 89 which would put them just below Oakland (if they won everything going out, not likely) for 5th worst record. Right now they are 7th worst (tied with Pittsburgh who they won the season series with 2-1 so they'd actually pick 8th overall). Thus the range now is #5-#14 overall for picks, at #8 right now. Of course, as mentioned in the past, the White Sox cannot pick before #10, nor can the A's due to the lottery rules (to discourage multi-year tanking ala the Astros a few years ago). Odds of getting the #1 pick (factoring in ChiSox & A's not being able to win and for the range the Jays could be in) is 5th: 18.03%, 6th: 10.20%, 7th: 7.48%, 8th: 5.31%, 9th: 3.67%, 10th: 2.45%, 11th: 1.90%, 12th: 1.50%, 13th: 1.22%, 14th: 1.03%.

So games like today are ideal in some respects - Vlad got multiple hits (helps him towards a batting title), Burr looked good (trying to win a slot for 2025), Clase got 2 hits (good sign from the kid who will also be trying to make the team), hated his being thrown out at home, but that was more on Lukes for the bad bunt (safe to say it was a contact play). The loss improves their draft odds a touch, while a win wouldn't have done anything for the club beyond feeling good.

The LF battle for 2025 is very interesting - Schneider now down to 83 wRC+, Lukes at 131, Berroa 62, Loperfido 80, Clase 66 (2 for 7 as a Jay). Schneider being RH and Clase being a switch hitter should help both in this battle, Loperfido/Lukes both LH, Berroa a switch hitter (but not valued by the Jays given his 25 games/41 PA so far this season).
Magpie - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 06:34 PM EDT (#452840) #
The LF battle for 2025 is very interesting

Even assuming they don't add an outfielder in the off-season, there's obviously no way Lukes, Loperfido, and Clase can all make the team next year. Never mind Berroa, and all Schneider has going for him at this point is his ability to play second base.

Lukes is the most MLB ready at this point but he's already 30 years old, and what would be his status this off-season? He's got nine years in the minors - can't he opt for free agency at this point?
scottt - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#452841) #
LF is a prime spot to sign a free agent bat.
The battle for 4th outfielder is very interesting.
Clase is only 22. Lukes is 30.

Considering the current roster, Varsho plays CF so Lukes goes on the bench and Berroa goes back to Buffalo.
De Los Santos, also goes back to Buffalo but that's just to bring the roster to 26.
I'd like Wagner to play second and that probably pushes Schneider to Buffalo. 
Adding Bichette back would push Clement to the bench and would push another outfielder to Buffalo, let say Clase.
Adding a LF bat moves Loperfido to the bench as the 4th outfielder.
Adding a third baseman pushes Barger back to Buffalo. 
Adding a DH pushes Horwitz out of position which doesn't seem great now.
I kinda like a Barger/Clement platoon at 3rd. Barger can play some RF. Clement can play some SS. 

There are so many bodies now that it seem preferable to add only 1 really big bat rather than 2 big ones.
85bluejay - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 06:56 PM EDT (#452842) #
A great day, not only did the Jays lose but the Rangers and Pirates won, so the Jays have a real shot at the 7th worst record and better draft odds and money - I hope Boston and Miami don't screw up the plot.
hypobole - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#452843) #
"Right now they are 7th worst (tied with Pittsburgh who they won the season series with 2-1 so they'd actually pick 8th overall)."

Tiebreaker for draft lottery doesn't use head to head, it uses previous years standings. I'm pretty sure the Jays will end up with the 6th best odds.

Jays finish Red Sox/Marlins

Pirates have tiebreaker and finish Brewers/Yankees. They should end up 5th best odds.

Rangers only 1 game back, but they have A's/Angels and the Jays have the tiebreaker.

Cinci has tiebreaker and only have 5 left - 2 Guardians/ 3 Cubs, but they're 3 wins up on the Jays.


Magpie - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 08:23 PM EDT (#452844) #
De Los Santos, also goes back to Buffalo

What did Buffalo do to deserve that?
pooks137 - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 08:48 PM EDT (#452845) #
Lukes is the most MLB ready at this point but he's already 30 years old, and what would be his status this off-season? He's got nine years in the minors - can't he opt for free agency at this point?

The six year minor league FA rule only applies to players NOT on a MLB 40-man roster.

So Lukes would only be eligible if the Jays DFA him.

Magpie - Sunday, September 22 2024 @ 08:57 PM EDT (#452846) #
So Lukes would only be eligible if the Jays DFA him.

Thanks. I wouldn't expect that to happen. Many other more deserving candidates. Pop! Frias! De Los Santos!
scottt - Monday, September 23 2024 @ 10:54 AM EDT (#452849) #
Lukes is 31. If he doesn't make the team, they should just trade him. The fact that he has one option remaining gives him some value.
92-93 - Monday, September 23 2024 @ 11:30 AM EDT (#452850) #
Usually you want your 4th OF to be able to play CF, and Lukes has not looked good out there. Varsho is fine vs. lefties though and Springer can slide over in a pinch, so perhaps it's not a big deal.

Pearson opens for the Cubs today. He's thrown 23 innings for them with a 20:3 K:BB and 4 HR allowed.

Regarding Teoscar, I actually haven't seen any suggestions in here that he's the cleanup hitter the Jays need. Most people recognize the time to sign him was two years ago, not this offseason coming off his best season when it will take way too much term.
uglyone - Monday, September 23 2024 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#452851) #
Rest of Season fangraphs combined wRC+ projections:


* SS Bichette 112
* 1B Horwitz 120
* 3B Guerrero 151
* C Kirk 111
* RF Springer 109
* CF Varsho 104
* LF Lukes 103
* 2B Wagner 103
* DH Schneider 103

* IF Clement 97 --- Jimenez 93
* UT Barger 97 --- Orelvis 93
* OF Loperfido 86 --- Clase 82
* C Heineman 83 --- Serven 56


Steamer-Only Projection: OF Roden 107
scottt - Monday, September 23 2024 @ 12:16 PM EDT (#452853) #
Pearson's HR rate is about the same. The walks are down significantly, the strike outs are down but so are the hits which balances things out.
Being a reliever, next year could be totally different.
Glevin - Monday, September 23 2024 @ 12:23 PM EDT (#452854) #
"I'm pretty sure the Jays will end up with the 6th best odds."

I think 5-7 looks fairly likely and hard to see them with worse than the 8th best odds at first.

"Lukes is 31."

He just turned 30. Lukes has looked pretty bad in OF but solid at the plate. I still like him as a 5th OF except Jays have a lot of guys vying for that spot.

I'd also call up Oakland early in the offseason and ask what they want for Rooker. He's almost 30 and one more year of pre-arbitration and has a 166 WRC+ so he should still have very good value. A's do love cheap major league ready guys and Jays have a bunch of them. Would something around Orelvis and Clase get it done?

One thing I hope the Jays don't do this year is pursue Soto and ignore everything else. Last year's free agent class was historically weak and Jays had way fewer tradable pieces so there will be way more options than last year but don't want the Jays to be strong along until February and up with having to bring Kiermier out of retirement.

LF (or people who can play LF ) available this year in free agency. LF seems easiest place for Jays to make big upgrade.

Soto-7.9 WAR
Profar-4.5 WAR
Winker-1.4 WAR (120 WRC+)
O'Neill- 2.5 WAR
Teoscar-3 WAR
Santander-3.1 WAR


As well, pretty sure these guys would be available in trades.
Rooker-5 WAR
Ward-2.9 WAR


greenfrog - Monday, September 23 2024 @ 12:40 PM EDT (#452855) #
Pearson also carries significant injury risk. I don’t think he’s a huge loss long-term, although he may have seasons or stretches where he does well.
soupman - Monday, September 23 2024 @ 12:45 PM EDT (#452856) #
16-game swing on the Yankees sounds good. I'll take that option. Is that too boring and obvious?
uglyone - Monday, September 23 2024 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#452857) #
Pearson with CHC:

* Gms 01-08: 13.1ip, .161babip, 2.70era, 4.82fip, 3.83xfip
* Gms 09-16: 9.2ip, .322babip, 3.72era, 3.37fip, 3.76xfip
* With TOR: 40.0ip, .356babip, 5.63era, 4.64fip, 3.75xfip
jerjapan - Tuesday, September 24 2024 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#452885) #
Lukes looks bad in the OF to you guys?  I was surprised to read that - he's looked good to me, but I haven't been exactly following closely with the team so no-competitive.  I was compelled to look him up, and sure enough, a big minus 1.7 fWAR.
I am skeptical.  He came up as a CF (although it's normal to give guys reps up middle of the defensive spectrum in the minors).  He has more games there than left or right, although he's played all three, regularly.   His playing time and usage certainly indict a 4th OF role.  Elite D in CF often leads to a starting job, so perhaps Lukes is just solid in CF. 

But -1.7 fWAR in 29 games feels like a small sample size selling him short?

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