Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
Another excellent pitching matchup, but these teams can hit -- last night, both starters' ERA doubled. I expect Roy Halladay to be sharp and determined, minimizing the damage against those Yankee bats. Mussina has trouble with some Jays -- Cat's hitting .462 off him, with five doubles, two HR and three RBIs in 26 career AB -- but he's 6-2 with an ERA under 3.00 vs. Toronto the last three years. Moose got the W the last time the teams met, giving up 4 ER (including a Delgado solo blast) and striking out 8 in 6 IP, with more run support -- Lurch got rocked -- than he can expect tonight.

No TV in Toronto, and the FAN has basketball; try if you can't get 610 AM over the air. Here's a look at Tosca's lineup tendencies; I was expecting the complete "A" team tonight, but Bordick is starting for Woodward. Obviously that's a defensive upgrade, for all those anticipated ground balls, and Mike's been hitting well.
Game 14: Doc vs. Moose | 21 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Spicol - Tuesday, April 15 2003 @ 07:10 PM EDT (#90509) #
Bordick also played in Game 3 vs. Mussina. Tosca seems to think that Bordick has Moose's number over the years and was quoted as saying so but he's really only hit him at a 294/356/353 clip over 51 AB. Good, considering the quality of the pitcher, but not great.
_Sean - Tuesday, April 15 2003 @ 07:32 PM EDT (#90510) #
Thanks for the radio link, Coach.

Halladay is having a tough first inning. Hopefully he can get Posada here to escape with just one run scoring.
Coach - Tuesday, April 15 2003 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#90511) #
Stewart hit one hard at Mondesi, Cat (the Moose-killer) drew a walk, and Vernon (the ML leader in RBI) grounded into his third double play in 24 hours.

Leadoff base hit for Soriano, Johnson went down swinging, Doc got ahead of Giambi 0-1 with the curve then missed with his next four pitches. RBI single by Williams; 1-0 Yankees. Matsui popped up to third; a big out. Routine 4-3 roller retired Posada.

Tom Cheek just reported the Yankees threw 195 pitches last night, the Blue Jays 187. It was the longest 9-inning game in franchise history, four hours and eight minutes. The double-overtime hockey game was shorter.
Coach - Tuesday, April 15 2003 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#90512) #
Tonight's game is moving along at a better pace. In the top of the second, Mussina struck out the heart of the order, Delgado-Phelps-Hinske.

Facing the bottom third of the NY lineup, Doc went right after Ventura, but Robin dropped a 2-strike single into RF. Mondesi flied to center, then Almonte (2 for his last 16) got grazed by an inside pitch. Dangerous...

Soriano was retired on a bouncer to first, and Nick the Stick fanned again with two RISP. Think how much better this lineup will be with Jeter back in the 2-hole next month, and Johnson ninth again. It's 1-0 through two. Doc's working hard; 38 pitches already.
Coach - Tuesday, April 15 2003 @ 08:04 PM EDT (#90513) #
Mussina's mowing down the Jays without a problem, although Myers at least worked the count full. As with last night's game, this one could be decided by the bullpens.

Halladay induced a quick 4-3 grounder from Giambi, went right after Bernie and retired him the same way on an 0-2 pitch, then made it a clean sweep of the Yankee sluggers by getting Godzilla to roll one to O-Dog. The pitching duel is on.
Coach - Tuesday, April 15 2003 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#90514) #
Cat does own Mussina -- a one-out single, after Stewart hit another hard shot right at Mondesi. But Wells is caught looking (Moose's 4th K) and it's up to Delgado. He pops up to RF; inning over.

Bottom four: Posada (his fifth HR) takes Halladay to straightaway CF; 2-0 NY. This is a very potent Yankee lineup, and they seem to take advantage of every mistake. A Mondesi single was erased by an Almonte double play. OK, we need to start hitting now.
_Richard - Tuesday, April 15 2003 @ 08:26 PM EDT (#90515) #
Damn Yankee's! Moose utterly dominating tonight.....fastball 89-94,great curve,solid change-up,our only hope is that he tires and we stay close.
robertdudek - Tuesday, April 15 2003 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#90516) #
Boston was up 5-1 and Fossum exited after pitching 7; Mendoza donated 4 runs to the D-Rays' cause and now it's 5-5.
_Richard - Tuesday, April 15 2003 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#90517) #
Another great fielding play by Carlos....are my eyes deceiving me? In the past week I swear Delgado has made more superb defensive stops than all last year combined!
Coach - Tuesday, April 15 2003 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#90518) #
Single-single-walk with one out in the eighth, as our boys won't give up easily, but Mussina gets his "nemesis" Bordick to ground into a double play. What can you do?
Mike D - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 12:27 AM EDT (#90519) #
I'll have a full report from the Bronx tomorrow, hopefully with photos...Suffice it to say I am not pleased with Mr. Tosca.
_Mick - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 12:44 AM EDT (#90520) #
Okay, I ask this question seriously, not as a mediahyped reaction to a nice performance tonight. And I can't answer it because I'm too much of a Yankee fan. But I've thought about it before and again tonight.

Mike Mussina ... Hall of Famer?

On the current Yankee team, there are a LOT of HOF candidates. Clemens is in, of course. Giambi is a good bet, if he doesn't go all Dale Murphy on us. Bernie Williams and Andy Pettitte and maybe even Jorge Posada are going to get a lot of consideration -- far more than they deserve -- because they played in New York, and Bernie is in the magical "Yankee CF" position while Pettitte has an outside chance to become the franchise all-time leader in wins. Mo Rivera will get some votes but unless Eckersley's inevitable induction breaks the dam for closers, probably won't get in. Ventura has had a nice career -- lots better than he gets credit for -- but not a HOFer. Soriano, too soon to tell. Jeter, well, almost certainly, whether he deserves it or not.

But ... Mussina? One of the top 10 pitchers of the generation (is that an overstatement?) ... Before any other ZLCers run to gather Gray Ink scores and similarity profiles and all that, what's your gut say? Mike Mussina ... Hall of Famer?
Gitz - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 12:56 AM EDT (#90521) #
Without doing any research, I'd say Mussina needs to win a Cy Young -- at the very least. And to do that, he HAS to avoid the 3-inning, 10-run stinkers he seems to put up two or three times a season.

And Andy Pettitte? How the devil will he get any consideration for the HOF?

Mick, you're spending too much time near Bush's oil fields ...
_Dr B - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 01:03 AM EDT (#90522) #
The Moose is going to have to wait for Mr Clemens to retire before he gets a Cy Young. He kicked Roger's fat ass a couple of years ago, but who took home the prize....?
Gitz - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 01:04 AM EDT (#90523) #
OK, I cheated: I just looked at the numbers. Pettitte's not as "bad" as I thought, but he's got some work to do.

Everyone keeps saying the Hall will need to raise its standards for hitters. Will it also have to lower its standards for pitchers? Mussina's 3.54 career E.R.A. is low relative to his epoch, but fairly high historically (I think?).

Anyway, just thinking out loud again ...
_Jurgen Maas - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 01:55 AM EDT (#90524) #
Moose is already a borderline HOFer according to the numbers at baseball-reference, and he'll have a couple more years to pad his stats:

Black Ink: Pitching - 11 (Average HOFer ~ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 190 (Average HOFer ~ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 40.0 (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 90.0 (Likely HOFer > 100)

For comparison sake, Pedro deserves it even if this shellacking by the Orioles has left him shell-shocked and he never pitches again:

Black Ink: Pitching - 49 (Average HOFer ~ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 153 (Average HOFer ~ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 51.0 (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 161.5 (Likely HOFer > 100)

And he's two years younger than Mussina.

Moose's problem may be something we touched upon earlier, and which seems to have affected Trammell's chances, that is, a considerable raising of the bar at his position by the time he's eligible for the HOF. If this really is the begining of a new era of great starting pitching, then Mussina's numbers may not look quite as impressive in 10 years (much like Trammell's career pales in comparison to what Nomar, Jeter, Tejada--am I missing somebody?--are doing).
_Jurgen - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 02:58 AM EDT (#90525) #
And then there's always the Keltner List. Scanning it seems like he's still borderline.

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

Goodness, I hope not.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

He played with Ripken for his career in Baltimore, and now he's with Clemens in NY. And when Clemens retires Giambi and Soriano (?) will still be around. So no.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

Let's try the second question first: Mussina had to contend with Johnson and Clemens when he first came up, then Hentgen and Pettitte in '96, then Clemens' resurgence with Jays, then Pedro's change of leagues, and then the emergence of the Oakland Three... I'd say he's been pretty unlucky in terms of superhuman competition from three sure-fire HOFers, but it's clear he's never been the best in the league.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

Sure, the '97 Orioles and his current stint with the Yanks.

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

That's what we're waiting to see... this could sway things considerably in his favour.

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

Well, off the top of my head, Blylevyn isn't a HOFer. And he's not the very best, but he's better than Mussina.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

Not at this moment, according to baseball-reference. But three HOFers (Jim Bunning, Jack Chesbo, and Clemens) and one possible HOFer (Jack Morris) are listed among his most "Similar Pitchers through Age 33". So, see #5.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

See above.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Not that I can tell.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

Nope, and likely won't be when he retires.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

No MVP and more damming, no Cy Young. See #3.

He was 4th in '92 when Eck won, 4th in '94 when Cone won with the Royals, 5th in '95 when Randy won, 5th in '96, 6th in '97 when Clemens won, 2nd and 6th against Pedro's back-to-back top ten finishes in all time ERA+ in '99 and '00, and 6th again to (now teammate) Clemens in '01.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

Five All Star Games ('92, '93, '94, '97, '99) all with the Orioles, and yet strangely snubbed both times by his current manager who otherwise has included the entire Yankee roster when he helms the AL squad.

What does that tell us?....

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

I think we've made the case that Mussina was a really really good player.

Now, if you had a team of really really good players but no one playing at a superstar level, could that team win the pennant?


But they could win the World Series.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

None that I know of.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Well, he did make Cito Gaston look like a jerk.

Oh, Pedro's nearly three years younger than Mussina.
_Jurgen - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 03:32 AM EDT (#90526) #
Even when Mussina got lucky and Pedro blew his arm out, fate still shafted him out of a Cy Young.

Looking over the numbers, Mussina probably should have won in '01.

But his 17-11 record didn't excite the voters, I guess, finishing with fewer wins and a worse record than the others.

When all the votes were counted, Mussina narrowly edged out Tim Hudson for fifth place (not sixth, as I incorrectly stated earlier) with two points.

Here's how they ranked according to the baseball writers:

Clemens 128 ERA+
Mulder 126 ERA+
Garcia 138 ERA+
Moyer 123 ERA +
Mussina 142 ERA +
Hudson 129 ERA+
_Mick - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 10:48 AM EDT (#90527) #
Interesting feedback ... lots of numbers and metrics, you zombies. But my original question was "what's your gut say?" (Mine says "lose 60 pounds, you moron.")

But seriously, the spirit of the question takes me back almost 15 years when I was spending a weekend in Cleveland any my then-significant-other produced tickets to a doubleheader between the Indians and Twins.

We saw Phil Niekro, Steve Carlton AND Bert Blyleven pitch. And I remember telling her "we saw three Hall of Famers today." There was never any question in my mind that Blyleven would end up in Cooperstown; I was wrong is all. (Not about seeing three HOFers, though; it just ended up being Carlton, Niekro and Kirby Puckett.)

Who gives you that "feel"? I remember thinking "Hall of Famer, of course" about Jack Morris and Alan Trammell. (Moreso even than Puckett, but that could be geographical bias.) By that standard, I get the feeling, watching Mussina, of a cross between Jim Palmer and Don Sutton, HOF-wise. But he may have to last as long as Sutton to get in.

And Gitz, my point on Pettitte was that he's going to get consideration and votes when he shouldn't because he's going to get close to 200 wins as a Yankee; New York (both teams) glory has helped the potential case of David Cone (194 wins so far) while it won't particulary help Doc Gooden (194 wins) and didn't help Mel Stottlemyre (164 wins, three 20-win seasons). I'm not saying ANY of these guys belong in the HOF. I'm just sayin' ... the New York factor matters.

And if Pettitte (128 wins) pitches six more good years (he's 31, so it's at least possible) and hangs around a little and makes a run at Whitey Ford's 236 career wins in pinstripes AND continues to rack up terrific post-season numbers (14-4 to date) ... he may well get in anyway.
_Jurgen Maas - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#90528) #
Moose's problem may be something we touched upon earlier, and which seems to have affected Trammell's chances, that is, a considerable raising of the bar at his position by the time he's eligible for the HOF. If this really is the begining of a new era of great starting pitching, then Mussina's numbers may not look quite as impressive in 10 years (much like Trammell's career pales in comparison to what Nomar, Jeter, Tejada--am I missing somebody?--are doing).

That's what my gut is telling me.

He's already borderline, and will probably be made to look worse by what Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, Matt Clement, Roy Oswalt, Wade Miller, Tim Hudson, Barry Zito, Mark Mulder, Roy Halladay, Mark Buehrle, Jarrod Washburn, Randy Wolf, Vincente Padilla, Brett Myers, Brandon Duckworth, Brad Penny, AJ Burnett, Josh Beckett, Javier Vazquez, and Matt Morris, to name some will have done in ten years.

And by that standard, I don't think Pettitte will have a chance in hell, nor will there be a big push to put him in. He won't feel like a HOFer. They'll get Clemens and possibly Rivera as their Yankee pitchers to enshrine.
_Cristian - Wednesday, April 16 2003 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#90529) #
He sure wasn't made to look worse by Roy Halladay last night.
Game 14: Doc vs. Moose | 21 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.