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For those of you who were not able to see Gustavo Chacin pitch last time out, you're in for a treat. Provided, of course, that he looks like the same pitcher I saw making his major league debut last week.

There are two distinct features in Chacin's delivery:

1) He has a hitch near the beginning of the windup which some observers think is a balk. By the rules, it is indeed, since he comes to a stop and restarts his motion. But since this is his normal full wind-up (and is not used with runners on base) the umpires will probably let it go.

2) He throws out his glove hand where the ball will come flying out from before his pitching arm comes forward; this probably distracts the hitter just a little bit. It looks a little like a windmill.
Game 157: Have You Seen Chacin? (doubleheader, game 2) | 88 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#29889) #
I have some recollection as well of Gibbons talking about a kind of extra step Chacin was taking which was also technically illegal. Can't find the reference. Anyone else remember?

I just discovered the anagram thread. Tee-hee. Sorry I missed the fun.

Of course, while I like to think of myself as a kind of MICRO DYLAN, you probably would have stuck with me CLAY NIMROD or LADY MICRON.

Still, beats being stuck in a bar with MORAL CINDY.
_Fozzy - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#29890) #
Perhaps someone can help me with this: what will happen with the money made from the sale of the Expos? If the owners of the other 29 teams own the Expos, is the sale price divided among them, or does it go directly to MLB?
_Lime - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:06 PM EDT (#29891) #
Who WAS able to see Chacin pitch last time out? The game wasn't televised.
_Rob - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:06 PM EDT (#29892) #
As expected, Crozier is the first baseman in the second game of this here double-dip. Quiroz catching, rest of lineup is The Official September 2004 lineup.

And Adams nudges his average over .340 with a single past Tejada.
_Rob - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:10 PM EDT (#29893) #
Gustavo Chacin was spotted yesterday with Jon's son, who was named after the closest star to the Earth and nicknamed after a Spanish house: Sun "Casa" Voight.
_Lime - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:10 PM EDT (#29894) #
Is it just me, or did Rob Black say "strike 3 called" when Hudson whiffed?
Craig B - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#29895) #
Magpie, you forgot to put those under the ACRONYM LID. Also, you are a LORD IN YMCA, but you didn't know that I CAN, MY LORD.

I wrote all of this with a MILD CRAYON. "ALMOND!", I CRY. And when I get some beef, I CORN MADLY, and go quite CORNILY MAD, singing a NOMAD LYRIC to DOC MARILYN. What am I made out of? MAINLY CORD, and I like to take the occasional NORDIC AMYL. It's also really, really COLD IN ARMY.

Geez, your name is fun!
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:19 PM EDT (#29896) #
I'm glad. I'm still depressed about MORAL CINDY. Just my luck.

I don't see anything strange about Chacin's delivery, but suppose we should wait til there's a baserunner.

Maybe there won't be a baserunner? :-)
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#29897) #
Who WAS able to see Chacin pitch last time out? The game wasn't televised.

I saw it on MLB Extra-Innings; those outside Canada could also watch on MLB.TV.
Craig B - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:23 PM EDT (#29898) #
I'm still waiting, by the way, for Mark to e-mail me to collect his prize from the LABBYSTBPC which he has won. craig@battersbox.ca.

It does look as if Mark won't be collecting his prize, though (don't worry, Mark, I have another one if you do get in touch with me) so we're going to have a fun contest to give away the genuine MLB-licensed Ichiro! T-shirt that is the LABBYSTBPC award.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:25 PM EDT (#29899) #
He doesn't have the same hitch - now it looks more like a slight change of pace. He still is throwing the glove hand out, perhaps not quite as much, but that could be the camera angle.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#29900) #
There it is - on the 1-0 pitch to Lopez. A little stutter on the rubber with his left foot.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#29901) #
The hitch is back in the second inning - maybe the rain in the first inning was bothering him.
_Dan - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:39 PM EDT (#29902) #
Damn what a catch. Too bad for Quiroz.
_JackFoley - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:40 PM EDT (#29903) #
A very nice catch by 'McDarnell'.
_Lime - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#29904) #
Is it just me, or did Rob Black say "strike 3 called" when Hudson whiffed?
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#29905) #
Pat Borders just went first to third on a single to RF.

Wish I'd seen that...
_Fozzy - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:02 PM EDT (#29906) #
It's getting real ugly at Olympic Stadium, as a barrage of golf balls brings the players off the field.

Boy, I wish I was joking.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:04 PM EDT (#29907) #
Golf balls? Where did they come from?

Pat Borders just threw out Wilson trying to steal.

Could Borders actually outlast Roberto Alomar? John Olerud?
_Fozzy - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#29908) #
I think they were giving them away as a promotion (bad choice on their part, frankly, if that is the case.)

Play has been suspended and security is on the field now while they try and sort it out.

Would be a real shame if the Expos got dq'd tonight with so many people there.
_IainS - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:12 PM EDT (#29909) #
This is what the game is about...

Chacin The Dream
Thomas - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:22 PM EDT (#29910) #
What is the attendance in Montreal tonight?
_R Billie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:30 PM EDT (#29911) #
A couple of poorly placed pitches that inning and Chacin gives up a run. He's lucky that wasn't a two run homer as that curve was nowhere near where he wanted it. I would have stuck with the cutter which is a much safer pitch control wise. If you call a curve you have to call it in the dirt.
_Jabonoso - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:35 PM EDT (#29912) #
I really hope they take Chacin out of the game with 87 pitches so far.
Do not make the dream into a nightmare...
Gustavo is not confident with his curveball or power slider as the homeruns taken were abundant. Something to work with at AAA if he is to be a ML starter
_R Billie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:43 PM EDT (#29913) #
Chacin has one of his quicker innings of the game. It's hard to believe he's given up no walks and only 3 hits but has still thrown 94 pitches through 6 innings. The Orioles have had a lot of 2-2 and 3-2 counts today. That should be his last inning of the game.
_Lime - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#29914) #
We're getting some hits tonight but not when they count most.

It would be great to leapfrog the O's in this game and hopefully get Chacin the win.
_Dan - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:57 PM EDT (#29915) #
Well hes back suprisingly for the 7th and lopez just tagged him. I hope Gibbons knows what hes doing leaving Chacin in there.
_Jabonoso - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#29916) #
Bauer really look good! and it was treated with care.
Gibbons is abusing the kid, he has had a looong season and we have a recent bad experience, leaving him too long in Yankeedoom
_R Billie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 09:04 PM EDT (#29917) #
He survives one more trip through the hardest part of the lineup and is up to 105 pitches. Now THAT should be his last inning. I think Gibbons decided another inning of the youngster was better than whoever would have come out of the pen at that point (probably Miller).

Now can the Jays score any runs? They've had terrible at bats all night though the ump also has a huge strikezone.
_6-4-3 - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 09:22 PM EDT (#29918) #
Okay, maybe Justin Miller as relief ace *isn't* a legitimate possibility.
_JackFoley - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 09:23 PM EDT (#29919) #
Poor Expos.
_Ron - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 09:29 PM EDT (#29920) #
Anybody from DA Box going to call JP tonight?

I'm surprised so many people in here tune in but don't call in.

For some reason the toll free number doesn't work for me.
_R Billie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 09:29 PM EDT (#29921) #
Miller is and always has been a disaster in relief. I don't understand what the Jays are hoping to gain by putting him relief when he always struggles early and on top of that putting him in late in a 1-0 game. Miller's problem is not having too few pitches, it's not being able to throw strikes with any of them. Moving from long appearances to short appearances won't fix that.

Miller's only chance to be a serviceable major league pitcher is in the rotation where he can "average out" to be good over several innings to get over his consitent early struggles. He'll probably be designated for assignment after this year and he'll probably make it to AAA where he has to re-establish his command to where it was early in the year as a starter.
_the shadow - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#29922) #
In any loss you have to look for the positives, in this case, another outstanding performance by Chacin against a good hitting ball club, this after a very good performance against the Yankees, very positive in my opinion!!!!
_CaramonLS - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#29923) #
I agree shadow, both amazing performances by Chacin against 2 great hitting clubs.

You just can't ask for much more from a AA player in his ML debut.
_DGriebeling - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:21 PM EDT (#29924) #
Was/is JP on? Very small thread, with no details about what he discussed...
_Gwyn - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:24 PM EDT (#29925) #
DG - he hasn't been on yet.
_Ron - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:24 PM EDT (#29926) #
Feel bad for all those Expos fans that lost their team. Lots of emotion from the fans tonight.

I was pissed when the Grizz were moved down South. I was at the last game and remember the video they played at the end of the game. Steve Francis had to hire extra security and one guy ran onto the court .
_Ron - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:29 PM EDT (#29927) #
JP just said he wants a starter, 2 bullpen guys, and 2 bats.
_Ron - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:34 PM EDT (#29928) #
Damm JP must be sick and tired of the Delgado question.
_Gwyn - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:36 PM EDT (#29929) #
Notes from JP:
Off-season -> another starter, two bats and two more arms in the bullpen.
Bastista may/will close if they can get another starter - then they could have a national league style Power Bullpen next year.
Chacin could be #5 next year with Towers in the bullpen.
Banks dominated FSL, great in AA, will start in AA next year and should make AAA.
Will make an honest effort to sign Delgado, but, it will be difficult to sign him and address all the teams other needs. Could end up that if they sign Carlos they have a great player at first but no better as a team.
Mentioned they'd like to 'address' a contract with O-Dog this winter.
_Ron - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:41 PM EDT (#29930) #
JP: I never really said I had a 5 year plan. I think it will take longer than that.
_CaramonLS - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:41 PM EDT (#29931) #
You think JP would be interested in Pyrzinski?

Probably too expensive (5 mill this season), but would be a very solid Catcher (if we don't resign zaun) (sorry a Quiroz/Cash Platoon makes me vomit). He would help the jays BIG time in being able to hit with RISP.
_My Names not Ry - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:42 PM EDT (#29932) #
well thats a way to try for job security....I can make us better, just give me more time
_DGriebeling - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:47 PM EDT (#29933) #
I think the Jays WANT to sign Zaun, and I think Zaun would love to have another year in Toronto.

As for Cash, to see his future, look at the past of Ken Huckaby, IMHO
_CaramonLS - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:51 PM EDT (#29934) #
Well DG that is pretty encouraging, if hes going to put Jeter out for a couple months we might just need to keep him around.
_Mike - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:02 PM EDT (#29935) #
JP seemed a little bitter by the Batista's role question, I thought it was valid, of course I just read it on prospectus
_Ron - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:05 PM EDT (#29936) #
The caller asked a good question about Batista almost being a 5 mil a year closer and that almost goes against the organizational philosphy, JP said great closers make 7,8, and even 12 mil a year.

He said even if Batista doesn't pan out as a closer you can count on him for 200 innings.
_My Names not Ry - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:11 PM EDT (#29937) #
Ron, color me uninformed, about your JP comment, did he really say that or were you making another point i missed? If he said he never said anything about a 5 year plan, i gotta take issue, he said 07 we contend or he is gone.
_Ron - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:21 PM EDT (#29938) #
JP was really wishy washy tonight.

He gave a fairly long answer regarding the team's future. He alluded to the fact he didn't really come in and talk about a 5 year plan and other people mentioned it. He CLEARLY said it might take longer than 5 years and it will be longer than he expected.

When asked about his long term future with the Jays, he said he was committed until 2007, but didn't mention anything after that.

I wish the FAN had an audio vault.

If Mike Wilner is reading this, perhaps he can come in and back me up where JP said he didn't really say their was a 5 year plan.
_My Names not Ry - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:23 PM EDT (#29939) #
I am not a big JP fan, and I realize the general populace of this board is, just curious what the reaction is to him saying, its gonna take longer, sounds to me like he realized you just plain can't compete. I mean, to talk like he has a plan, just do better at drafting etc... then to say, 2007 we will compete, then to say, I will be here til 07....To an "anti JP" guy like me, this just smells of double talk.
_R Billie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:26 PM EDT (#29940) #
Well I guess the point was if you were going to spend $5 million on a potential closer you could have spent less than that on guys who actually have experience and decent track records as closers in Urbina, Benetiz, and others. Obviously they spent the amount of money they did on Batista with the understanding that he would be an above average starting pitcher and an experienced inning eater in the rotation. So certainly the question was valid when the Jays have needed a bullpen ace for a while and yet the most the Jays have spent on a relief pitcher was an average of $2.2 million on Ligtenberg.

Of course this is not to say that Batista can't do a decent job as a closer, perhaps on par with other relievers making about as much money give or take. It's just that if he IS capable of pitching well why would it be more valuable over fewer innings than more innings? Back around mid-season when Batista was sporting a sub-4.00 era in the rotation it would have been considered lunacy to make him a closer. So why is it a good idea now?

Assuming they can find another competent starter it will probably be fine. I think they could have found a closer just as good or better if they had spent $3 to $4 million on a reliever in the first place.
_Ron - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:29 PM EDT (#29941) #
I think they could have found a closer just as good or better if they had spent $3 to $4 million on a reliever in the first place.

BINGO!!! .......... Ron goes running off before the JP fanboys chop his head off:)
_Ryan01 - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:37 PM EDT (#29942) #
I've been wondering where this whole "5 year plan" thing came from anyways. I don't ever recall hearing or reading a single quote with JP giving a definite time frame. It's not some miracle cure that JP promised when he arrived here. It's merely a sensible, proven, long term plan aimed at long term success. The Jays and their fans thought the plan would come to fruition sooner rather than later after last years success. It's also reasonable then to expect that it might actually take a bit longer than expected after this year's struggles.

I don't think JP ever said '07 we contend or he is gone either. I believe it was more like, if we're still playing this poorly by then I'll step down. If we're in the same position at that point then yeah, he probably should step down. But I think we will have a much improved team by then and will continue to build from there. It's impossible to predict when this thing will hit full steam, maybe its '06, maybe it's '09. That's a hard pill to swallow, I know. But I think a lot of us approve of the plan because for the most part, the moves are rational, they stick to the plan and we can see the results emerging in the farm system.
_R Billie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:40 PM EDT (#29943) #
I am not a big JP fan, and I realize the general populace of this board is, just curious what the reaction is to him saying, its gonna take longer, sounds to me like he realized you just plain can't compete.

I don't think he realized any such thing. The spending in the division of not just the Yankees but every team not named the Jays or Devil Rays has gone up a lot in the last two years and the Orioles figure to go up more and even the Devil Rays figure to get a proportionately large increase.

The Jays payroll since JP took over has gone down and not come back up. Despite that he still maintained about the same level of performance the first two years before this years things caught up in the form of major injuries and backslides by some young players. This team was without it's ace starter and a hitter making almost 40% of the payroll for long stretches this season.

The only way the Jays can build up a critical mass of talent in such an environment is over time. Getting the talented players you inherited to the big leagues and supplementing them with more through the draft each year. Each year more players are getting to the big leagues and if the plan is adhered to that will continue to happen.

Two or three years from now, up the middle the team will have Wells, Hudson, Adams, and Quiroz in the prime of their careers. Aaron Hill will figure in somewhere on the infield. Halladay will still be pitching and more of the young pitching will have made an impression. Things will not stand still. Assuming the payroll goes up appropriately at the right time the Jays can add the missing pieces at the infield corners and finish off the pitching staff.
_Loveshack - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:43 PM EDT (#29944) #
It's just that if he IS capable of pitching well why would it be more valuable over fewer innings than more innings?

I dont know, ask Eric Gagne.

And no Im not saying that Batista is anywhere close to Gagne so don't even start.
_Mark - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:44 PM EDT (#29945) #
I am a fan of JP, but I really wonder about his attachement on players. Honestly. Erik Hinske has had 3 good months to his career-the first three. It will show me what kind of GM he is if he decides to unload him before his contract hits 3 and 5 million. I would love to see them sign Koskie-maybe a home country discount- I think he is sooo under rated.
_R Billie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:49 PM EDT (#29946) #
I dont know, ask Eric Gagne.

And has Gagne been tried back in the rotation since his newfound control? Because that's what really has made the difference for him, gaining incredible control as well as a bit of velocity.

Besides which, Batista has already been a reliever plenty of times over the course of his career. If he was significantly better in relief it probably would have shown by now.
_Loveshack - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:50 PM EDT (#29947) #
Erik Hinske has had 3 good months to his career-the first three.

That's not true. His first season he had a great August. Last year he had a great September and this year his June and July were excellent as well.
_Fozzy - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:51 PM EDT (#29948) #
Without the hindsight, who would have been better for the 'pen Ron?

I don't think anyone in the entire universe would have predicted Terry Adams, who had given up less than a hit an inning, a career ERA under 4 and numbers the previous year of a 2.65 ERA (only giving up 1 homer in 68IP!) would have been this abyssmal, giving up 80 hits in 66 IP and having an ERA of almost 5.00 (approaching 7.0 in Boston and relegated to mop-up duty)?

Between the three players signed to the 'pen last year, Justin Speier probably had the worst numbers coming in, and yet he has been the only one to approach respectability this season.

Looking back, there wasn't a whole lot of talent to draw on. I'm pretty sure everyone's two favourite hindsight "coulda-shouldas", Benetiz had a no-trade to Canada clause (and he made 7 million in 2003), and Urbina has only pitched 54 innings, and has an ERA of 4.50. And Tim Worrell, who was offered more money and the closer's role here, turned it down to play set-up in Philly.

While I agree that things could have gone better, I'm pretty sure there was no one guy out there that, if you were a GM without psychic ability, you would have or could have snagged to solve all this team's bullpen woes with.
_Ron - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:56 PM EDT (#29949) #
http://www.sportsbusinessnews.com/index.asp?story_id=38779
COMN for Paul Godfrey not JP, talking about the 5 year plan

"He told the crowd he remains committed to Ricciardi's "five-year plan" and that it is only year No.3. There was emphasis placed on the presence of rookies Gabe Gross, Alex Rios and Bush on the roster, with the promise of more to come."
_Mark - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:58 PM EDT (#29950) #
Erik Hinske

Entire Season TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AV

June Toronto Blue Jays 26 91 13 26 4 1 3 15 41 12 19 4 2 .371 .451 .286
July Toronto Blue Jays 25 104 11 33 7 1 3 12 51 5 14 2 1 .345 .490 .317

I wouldn't call it excellent, I'd call it what you should expect-FOR A WHOLE YEAR!!!!
_Loveshack - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 12:02 AM EDT (#29951) #
If he was significantly better in relief it probably would have shown by now.

Im not even going to pretend that I know what makes the difference between a good relief pitcher and a good starting pitcher because I honestly have no idea. I would personally prefer to see Batista back in the rotation next year. However I also can't explain what it is that makes him go from a great first half to being almost useless as a starter in August and Sept, and then back to being good again when he's moved to the bullpen.

It's times like this I wish I had a crystal ball so I could see which was more efficient with regard cost and results: Batista as closer + free agent starter? Or Batista as starter + free agent reliever.
_Mark - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 12:06 AM EDT (#29952) #
I just think if your going to spend 4.75 million on batista as a closer it makes it a bad signing. Realistically, he is not going to be any better than a Denny Baeys, however you spell it. Even a tom gordon or latroy hawkins who signed for 3 million a year would fit better cost wise. I think batista needs to be a starter and pitch like he can to be useful to this team
_Keith Talent - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 12:10 AM EDT (#29953) #
Yeah, Hinske's a bust. I don't buy it when Jerry Howarth calls him "the second-best defensive thirdbaseman in the AL" or whatever. He's not. His throwing is brutal. So what if he can get a glove on balls? It means nothing if you can't throw the guy out. And he's looked awful on so many routine plays.

I don't care how much Batista is making if he can be an effective closer. Having that closer makes the whole team more confident. It's what puts winning streaks together. It builds momentum. Billy Beane was desperate to give Foulke $6M. If they A's don't win their division (which seems likely, the Angels are playing inspired ball, another clutch win tonight in Texas) it will be because of the lack of a closer.
_Keith Talent - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 12:12 AM EDT (#29954) #
BTW: I think Batista got hurt late in the summer. I heard something about his back - then he had his struggles. I'm sure he has some secret ailments that are effecting him as a starter.
_6-4-3 - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 12:20 AM EDT (#29955) #
I've been working at finding quotes on the 5 year plan. It's hard, if not impossible, to find direct quotes from JP saying "We will compete by Year X", for obvious reasons. Nevertheless, here's what I found:

I cant say that I have a five year plan. I just want to win.

- JP, the day he was hired.

"About 3 weeks ago JP was talking to a caller fed up with JP's long term plan and said he should be canned if it doesn't pan out soon and JP replied he would quit if the team wasn't contending by 2007"

- Reply to a comment where JP said he wouldn't be around here in 2020.

"J.P., cautiously optimistic about this season, is paid through 2007 to take a long-term view. His rebuilding project does appear to be a full year ahead of schedule a contender wasn't in the original plans until 2005 yet his vision may not become fully realized until 2006."

- From the Jays preview (part one) here this season.

A quote by Gammons seems to confirm the perception that the Jays would compete in 2005 :"It wasn't supposed to happen this fast. When he took over the Blue Jays in November, 2001, J.P. Ricciardi was entrusted by Toronto owner Paul Godfrey to dismantle a fiscal wreck, reconstruct the organization and try to contend in 2005" (Now, this is hard

More importantly, when JP got his 5 year extension (to 2007), it was commented that he would be able to "finish the deal", that is have the Jays competing. Now, I like JP, but there's no way to look at his contract, and say that the Blue Jays aren't planning on competing by 2007. That's the year when Hinske, Wells, and Halladay's deals expire, along with JP's.

I think the "it's going to take longer" idea is coming from the sudden decline this year. Just as last year's winning caused some optimism (more from Tosca than JP) that the Jays could play "meaningful" games in September, this year, the losing has caused the pessimism that the Jays won't be playing meaningful games until September 2008. To be blunt, many things aren't going according to plan. Phelps won't be a cheap replacement for Delgado. Wells got injured. Halladay got injured. McGowan got injured. Hinske got injured (last year), seemingly recovered mid-season, then slumped again. Throw in the arms race between New York and Boston, Angelos ensuring that the Orioles have a certain amount of guaranteed revenue (from his deal with MLB over the new Washington deal), and the future for the Jays is looking bleaker.

I still think they can compete at sometime, but I wish I hadn't read these comments on the same day that I got a message from the Blue Jays marketing staff who wanted a commitment to renew my ticket package. It's depressing to have the juxtaposition of League mowing down the Yankees and Chacin pitching two good starts, along with JP basically going on the radio with a sign saying "The End (to losing) is (not) nigh"
_Loveshack - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 12:21 AM EDT (#29956) #
I would prefer to see Batista back in the rotation and if it's an injury thing then that would seem to make sense. However I dont think how much money he makes should enter the equation at this point. Whatever he makes, he's here now and for the next 2 years. So he should be used in whatever way is going to help the team win the most games. If that means that he becomes "overpaid" then so be it. Id rather have a good overpaid closer than a bad starter who makes reasonable money. Hyperbole, but you get the point.
_Keith Talent - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 12:36 AM EDT (#29957) #
Looky-look: Seattle touches Oakland for 3 in the 8th; M's up by 2 in the 9th.

The Angels are about to move into sole posession of first in a nick of time.
_6-4-3 - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 12:42 AM EDT (#29958) #
He only has one hit, but Ichiro was directly responsible for that comeback. He had a 13 pitch at-bat, (a strike, a ball, 6 consecutive fouls, two balls, two fouls, and a groundout), which was followed by a single by Winn, a double by Boone, and Harden's day was done. Harden had 106 pitches going into that at-bat, and he must've been gassed after it.
_R Billie - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 12:59 AM EDT (#29959) #
I don't know what's wrong with the A's. You go into Seattle, one of the worst teams in the league with the division on the line and you score 3 runs in the first two games? That's unacceptable. Put it on the bullpen if you want but how can you win with that kind of offensive effort?
_Ron - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 01:08 AM EDT (#29960) #
Without the hindsight, who would have been better for the 'pen Ron?


Going into the season I liked JP's moves in regards to the bullpen but it has proven to be a disaster.

It's pointless to say JP should have gotten this guy and that guy because I don't know what players were available through trade and what players were interested in signing with the Jays. What I do know is that the bullpen has been a dud and the person that put it together was JP.

It's JP's job to bring in players to produce (and when they don't the GM's neck is on the line, it's the nature of the business)

I don't buy that what would you have done logic because if you go by that then the GM's are virtually never wrong because when moves are made at the time, the majority are viewed as positives.
_6-4-3 - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 01:09 AM EDT (#29961) #
You could make the same comments about other teams:

What's wrong with the Rangers? They played three games at home against Seattle, and gave up 21 runs, while scoring only 12.

What's wrong with the Angels? They played three games against Seattle at home, gave up 25 runs, scored only 14 runs, and won only 1 game.

Seattle's played well against contenders this month (10 - 9, compared to their .392 winning percentage, and they've won consecutive series against Anaheim and Texas), maybe because of the spoiler role, maybe because of a rub-off effect of Ichiro's potential hit record.
_6-4-3 - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 01:13 AM EDT (#29962) #
I don't know how this happened, or if anyone's awake / interested, but Sportsnet is showing bonus coverage of San Fransisco versus San Diego. San Deigo just got an infield hit, so it's bottom of the 10th, no outs, runner on first, 3-3 tie.
_Jobu - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 01:20 AM EDT (#29963) #
I know this may seem like a stupid question so don't yell at me, but is this Expo move 100%? I just ask because at first I heard something about the difficulty that might come because "former owners" might sue MLB for moving the team, and the O's owner might put up a fight about moving the team, but all of a sudden I haven't heard a word. So is it a dont deal?

PS. Something big happend in San Diego.
_6-4-3 - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 01:21 AM EDT (#29964) #
The Padres just won. With the bases loaded, a shallow fly was hit near foul territory in right. Dustin Mohr went to catch it, and as he was prepearing to throw home, he stumbled over the pitching mound that there (what a dumb location for it), and hurt his left knee. He fell without making the throw.

There's still the question of the lawsuit. That makes it less than 100%, but I'm not sure how big a problem that is.
_Ron - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 01:23 AM EDT (#29965) #
What a wild finish in San Diego (I went to Petco Park this summer, stunning ball park!) with Mohr getting injured and Robinson scoring. Hopefully Mohr's okay.
_Jobu - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 01:23 AM EDT (#29966) #
For any interested, there is some DYNAMITE sports talk radio on right now at www.team990.com (montreal's sports talk) alot of angry and emotional callers. One guy was almost in tears (of rage) that Jose Vidro didnt even show up to the ballpark for this game. Wish I could record this.
_Ron - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 01:26 AM EDT (#29967) #
Too bad the only time Montreal people show passion towards the Spos is on their final home game.
_Jobu - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 01:34 AM EDT (#29968) #
This is weird, I feel like I'm listening to history. So much raw emotion on the air, nothing's being censored, no commercials, like its a sudden news break. Maybe this is what all sports talk is like but I never knew because I'm forced to listen to Bob McDouchebag.
_Wayne H. - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 03:21 AM EDT (#29969) #
How're you going to keep him down on the farm, after they've seen Chacin.

After a World War One mega hit.
_Paul D - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 07:49 AM EDT (#29970) #
Jobu, I think it's as sure as it's ever been... but you generally don't lose money when you bet against MLB having their s*** together. They still have to deal with the RICO suit from the former partners, but it looks like they've got Angelos covered. He's managed to convince MLB to guarantee him a revenue minimum. Depending on how things play out, that could actually be a positive for the Jays. With a revenue floor the Orioles have no incentive to spend money and improve, they can cut costs and make money off of the salary floor.

And Ron, shut up. Montreal did support the Expos before baseball abandoned the city. If you've been reading any of the reports on the Expos (check on Jonah Keri at Baseball Prospectus) you'll realize that Expos were passionate about their team for a long time, until Loria and Selig killed it. It's too bad that Bronfman had to sell the team, as it seems to have been mostly downhill from there.
Craig B - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 08:55 AM EDT (#29971) #
BINGO!!! .......... Ron goes running off before the JP fanboys chop his head off:)

What a pathetic whiner you are, Ron.

This stance of "oh, people are so prejudiced against me, I'm so persecuted" is played out, OK? We've already had our share of those people, we don't need others. The only thing people have done is disagree with you, and yet you somehow think you have the right to say any damn fool thing in your head and that nobody should have the right to voice a different opinion and attack your statements on their merits.

You make criticisms blithely, without even a damn fool thought about how to do things correctly, then when people criticise YOU, you blubber and moan about people cutting your head off. And it's har to criticize others for being "fanboys" when you are so reflexively negative.

I'm happy to have you criticize anyone and anything... from J.P. Ricciardi on down. But don't expect to get a pass from everyone - this is an open forum and people are allowed to engage what others are saying.
Craig B - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 08:57 AM EDT (#29972) #
I've been wondering where this whole "5 year plan" thing came from anyways. I don't ever recall hearing or reading a single quote with JP giving a definite time frame.

Ryan01, honestly I wonder if the lack of a definite time frame wasn't deliberate. I think a couple of years ago, most of us saw the time frame as being quite a bit less than five years.

The way things have unfolded since the end of last season has been a rude but necessary shock back to reality.
_Ryan01 - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 09:08 AM EDT (#29973) #
I think that's exactly it Craig. JP, from what I've seen, has been choosing his words very carefully to avoid giving any exact time frame.

That's also the worst part of this season for us, I think. It looked for a while like we would be able to avoid seeing the really awful teams that nearly every successful rebuilding team has had to endure at some point. This was a painful, but necessary, jolt of reality.
_Ron - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#29974) #
What a pathetic whiner you are, Ron.

This stance of "oh, people are so prejudiced against me, I'm so persecuted" is played out, OK? We've already had our share of those people, we don't need others. The only thing people have done is disagree with you, and yet you somehow think you have the right to say any damn fool thing in your head and that nobody should have the right to voice a different opinion and attack your statements on their merits.

You make criticisms blithely, without even a damn fool thought about how to do things correctly, then when people criticise YOU, you blubber and moan about people cutting your head off. And it's har to criticize others for being "fanboys" when you are so reflexively negative.

I'm happy to have you criticize anyone and anything... from J.P. Ricciardi on down. But don't expect to get a pass from everyone - this is an open forum and people are allowed to engage what others are saying.


Did you see my smiley at the end of my sentence?

I have no problem with people voicing a different opinion from mine, in fact I welcome it.

I don't share the same level of praise that a lot of you guys have of JP, but I have no problem telling you why.
_Kevin Pataky - Thursday, September 30 2004 @ 11:29 PM EDT (#29975) #
Toronto Blue Jays starting pitcher Gustavo Chacin goes through his windup as he delivers a pitch against the Baltimore Orioles in the first inning of the second game of a double-header at Camden Yards in Baltimore, September 29, 2004. Chacin was making his second major league start.     REUTERS/Joe Giza
Toronto Blue Jays starting pitcher Gustavo Chacin goes through his windup as he delivers a pitch against the Baltimore Orioles in the first inning of the second game of a double-header at Camden Yards in Baltimore, September 29, 2004. Chacin was making his second major league start.     REUTERS/Joe Giza
Mike Green - Friday, October 01 2004 @ 08:47 AM EDT (#29976) #
Thanks, Kevin. Nice pictures.
Game 157: Have You Seen Chacin? (doubleheader, game 2) | 88 comments | Create New Account
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