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For now, I'll just say that. There is no such thing as a curse. It means nothing.

Congratulations to the Boston Red Sox, 2004 World Series Champions.

There's No Such Thing As Curses | 125 comments | Create New Account
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_DGriebeling - Wednesday, October 27 2004 @ 11:41 PM EDT (#21059) #
Congratulations Boston.... now dismantle your team and wait another 86 years.

Sincerely,
Dave Griebeling
_Rob - Wednesday, October 27 2004 @ 11:43 PM EDT (#21060) #
I just woke up. Did I miss anything? Did the Yanks win Game 4?
_Fozzy - Wednesday, October 27 2004 @ 11:46 PM EDT (#21061) #
"All right! Nothing but three months of spaghettios and daytime soap operas!" - Otto
_CaramonLS - Wednesday, October 27 2004 @ 11:47 PM EDT (#21062) #
They won? What the heck?
_Jobu - Wednesday, October 27 2004 @ 11:49 PM EDT (#21063) #
If only the series wasn't as boring as watching paint dry
_Rob - Wednesday, October 27 2004 @ 11:55 PM EDT (#21064) #
Oh please. Paint finished drying in Game 1.
Game 2: Peeling.
Game 3: New coat.
Game 4: Painters give up and wallpaper the entire place, first wallpaper in the house since 1918, though.
_CaramonLS - Wednesday, October 27 2004 @ 11:55 PM EDT (#21065) #
Nice Nike Commerical they made especially for this.
_CaramonLS - Wednesday, October 27 2004 @ 11:56 PM EDT (#21066) #
Ok I WANT HOCKEY BACK NOW!
_Ron - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:01 AM EDT (#21067) #
WOOO!!!

Nice Nike commericial!

Is Theo even old enough to drink? He doesn't look like a GM.

BTW what's the deal with that quick shot of Fallon and Drew Barrymore kissing on the field the victory? I don't care if they're filming a movie don't show that crap.
_tim gueguen - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:07 AM EDT (#21068) #
http://timgueguen.blogspot.com
Yeah, Epstein looks like some college fratboy or callup from Triple A who just happened to wander into the clubhouse at a lucky moment.

Just watch, knowing the way pro sports go the Sox will lose 100 games next year.
_Matthew E - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:20 AM EDT (#21069) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2004/news/story?page=Curse041005
COMN for a very interesting article on the true origins of 'the Curse'. Stuff I didn't know.
_Matt - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:22 AM EDT (#21070) #
I gotta admit that I actually enjoyed that victory... yeah I know it was bought and paid for, but the run that was just mounted with the 3-0 comeback coupled with the cessation of an 86 yr drought is enough to put a smile on my face...
_R Billie - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:25 AM EDT (#21071) #
Kind of a ho-hum finish. Congradulations to the Red Sox anyway and kudos to Epstein, one of the best kid GMs in major league baseball.
_Mick - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:26 AM EDT (#21072) #
There is no curse. But there is reality:
2005 awaits, with new homes for ...

Derek Lowe in Arlington, Texas.
Trot Nixon in Chicago, Illinois.
Jason Varitek in Los Angeles, California.
Johnny Damon in Seattle, Washington.
Pedro Martinez in the Bronx, NY, NY.

Or something like that ... I think I've missed several other significant free agents and Damon may not be the one (or the only one) traded for pitching.
Pistol - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:32 AM EDT (#21073) #
Kudos to Epstein, one of the best kid GMs in major league baseball.

Kudos to Epstein, one of the best kid GMs in major league baseball.
_Mylegacy - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:33 AM EDT (#21074) #
Mick I'm not so sure about the new homes...

Theo is going to be under GREAT pressure to "bring the boys back." HOPEFULLY, enough pressure to OVERPAY and sign old guys to longer term contracts than he would have if he'd been coldly sober after losing the WS.

Being a Jays fan I have to hope that the two evil empires overspend so much that they strangle on their bloated bad contracts.
Pistol - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:34 AM EDT (#21075) #
I wonder what Nomar thinks about this.
_Mick - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:37 AM EDT (#21076) #
Nomar gets to go home to Mia Hamm and he makes eighty bazillion dollars a year. He's OK.
_Jobu - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:39 AM EDT (#21077) #
Poor Nomah....don't remind me.

Mick you're a Yankees fan right? What are you guys gonna chants next year and make signs of?

I don't mean that in a sarcastic spiteful way, I'm just actualy curious :)
_jason - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:39 AM EDT (#21078) #
When Pedro goes to New York this off season he's going to say that the Sox aren't serous about maintaining a winner and he'll say that they will never win another wolrd siries
_Magpie - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:40 AM EDT (#21079) #
I wonder what Nomar thinks about this.

They voted him a full WS share (about $200 grand).

It'll be hand-delivered by a Fed Ex guy who will then go "Nyah-nyah"
Craig B - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:48 AM EDT (#21080) #
There is no curse. But there is reality.

Even I can't eat those grapes, Mick. Much, much too sour.
_Mick - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:58 AM EDT (#21081) #
Mick you're a Yankees fan right? What are you guys gonna chants next year and make signs of?

Bill Simmons says the Fenway crowd will chant "Year Two Thousand" ... that's fine. We'll have to work on the cadence and how the rhythm will work, but I imagine it will something like "Twenty-Six to Four ..." Or if feeling really generous and you count the Pilgrims (who became the Sox) and the Braves, maybe "Twenty-Six to Six ..."

Of course, if you open it up to the Braves, then you have to count Da Bums (and even the Bridegrooms!), Da Baseball Giants and even the (ugh) Mets, very quick math tells me it would be "Thirty seven - six".
_Mick - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 01:04 AM EDT (#21082) #
Even I can't eat those grapes, Mick. Much, much too sour.

Nah. I'm kinda happy for them (or some of them) actually. In the same way Leafs fans would be happy to see an Ottawa Cup, I imagine.

I was simply pointing out -- accuratly, I think -- that the Red Sox are going to put the '97 Marlins to shame in losing big name players, and young Epstein is going to need more than a note from his mother (Kotter reference, sorry) to prove his mettle next year.
_Jobu - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 01:08 AM EDT (#21083) #
I don't the 86 year struggle of the Red Sox compares to the i dunno... 10 year "struggle" of the Senators to warrent honour among enemies.

Not that I disagre Mick, but I was wondering what makes you think they will fire sale? The team has the money and fanbase (especialy with this win) to keep spending unlike the Marlins.
_lurd - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 01:11 AM EDT (#21084) #
free at last!
_Andrew - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 01:14 AM EDT (#21085) #
http://www.nike.com/usa/justdoit/v2/index.jhtml
Being a blue jays fan I've never been one to root for any of their al east rivals but I can't help but feel happy for the red sox and anyone who spent their life rooting for them. COMN for the nike commerical that was aired right after the game incase you missed it or want to see it again.

Now we can look forward to seeing and hopefully beating the world champions on opening day :)
_Jobu - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 01:15 AM EDT (#21086) #
Now we can look forward to seeing and hopefully beating the world champions on opening day :)

I look forward to seeing them win, but not the arrogant fans who'll fill the place ;)
_Ron - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 01:18 AM EDT (#21087) #
I was simply pointing out -- accuratly, I think -- that the Red Sox are going to put the '97 Marlins to shame in losing big name players, and young Epstein is going to need more than a note from his mother (Kotter reference, sorry) to prove his mettle next year.

Epstein has nothing left to prove. He guided his team to the pinnacle of the sport. There's no greater victory than the World Series (WOO a McCarver like sentence).

THe Theo Esptein led Red Sox could lose 100 games for the next 5 seasons and he would still be a GOD in Boston.

Unlike the Marlins the Red Sox have the money to keep players.
_Elijah - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 02:08 AM EDT (#21088) #
I don't think Nixon will be going anywhere considering he signed a three-year extension.

I'm pretty sure Lowe and Pedro are gone.

Congrats Red Sox and their fans. The world is indeed upside-down.
_Jobu - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 02:14 AM EDT (#21089) #
Did you hear Pedro's montreal comments? He actually earned a little of my respect. Good job Mr. Martinez.
_Magpie - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 02:18 AM EDT (#21090) #
Bill Simmons says the Fenway crowd will chant "Year Two Thousand"

Wow, I'm pretty sure they aren't gonna be that polite.

I think they'll come up with something that refers to the greatest post-season collapse in, like, the history of the world. The word "choke" may figure prominently...

That said, it must be noted that the Yankees are the only franchise with the pedigree to withstand such a thing.

As for the curse - I don't remember anyone talking about it before the 1986 WS, which I vividly remember watching. The Phillies 1980 victory was still fresh, and the Phillies hadn't won since 1915. The Red Sox didn't seem quite so tragic at the time. But a two run lead, two out, no one on base - when you blow one of those, people start talking...
_Shrike - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 03:01 AM EDT (#21091) #
What did Pedro have to say about Montreal? I missed that.
_Jobu - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 03:15 AM EDT (#21092) #
Pedro said he wanted to share this championship with the people of Montreal because this is what it should have felt like in the city in 1994 if not for the strike and he's sad they dont have baseball anymore.

I think that comment alone moved him from "I dont like that guy" to "Meh...he's okay" in my book.
_Elijah - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 03:31 AM EDT (#21093) #
Someone e-mailed me this earlier this week...

The Don Mattingly Curse of the Yankees:

1978 Yanks win WS against the Dodgers

1979 - Mattingly Drafted by the Yankees, Captain Thurman Munson Dies in plane crash, Yankees begin 18 year Championship drought

1995 - Up 2-0 over Seattle in first Wild Card Playoff Series in Baseball history, Yankees lose 3 straight and miss ALCS.

1996 - Don Mattingly officially retires, Yankees rally from an 0-2 deficit to beat Braves 4-2 in World Series started by a 3-run game-tying home run by Jim Leyritz in the sixth inning of game 3.

1997 - Don Mattingly's number 23 retired, Yankees lose to Indians in ALCS 4-3 after being up 3-2 - Mariano gives up home run to Alomar.

1998 - Don Mattingly has no affiliation with the Yankees, Yankees win 125 games, lose only 1 playoff game and win the WS 4-0 over San Diego

1999 - Don Mattingly has no affiliation with the Yankees, Yankees beat Atlanta 4 - 0 in the WS to achieve a record streak of 12 consecutive WS wins

2000 - Don Mattingly has no affiliation with the Yankees, Yankees beat cross-town rivals NY Mets 4-1 in the WS. WS win streak = 14.

2001 - Don Mattingly becomes a Spring Training Hitting instructor, Mariano blows first save in Playoffs, lose WS to Arizona 4-3.

2002 - Don Mattingly still a Spring Training Hitting instructor, Yanks get shocked by Anaheim Angels in the playoffs...Angels go on to win series.

2003 - Don Mattingly still a Spring Training Hitting Instructor, After narrowly escaping the ALCS with an extra-inning walk-off HR by Aaron Boone off of Boston's Tim Wakefield, Yankees loose WS to one-hit-wonder Florida Marlins at Yankee Stadium.

2004 - Don Mattingly promoted to full-time Yankee Hittting instructor, despite a $194 million payroll, Yankees blow a 3-0 series lead and lose to the "Cursed" Boston Red Sox in the ALCS. The first time a team has lost a series in MLB after being up 3 - 0, the first time the Yankees have lost games 6 and 7 at Yankee Stadium since 1926. The first time anyone had 6 RBI in a ALCS game (Damon), the first time anyone has had 2 walk off hits in one playoff series, in one calendar day, and in 2 consecutive games in the 100+ year history of the sport (Ortiz). Red Sox win World Series in first year with Mattingly back in the Yankee dugout.

The picture is clear The Mattingly Jinx is stronger than Babe's Curse.
_John Northey - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 08:19 AM EDT (#21094) #
But how can Mattingly be a curse? Isn't he a great leader? C'mon, all the papers say so :)
_Lugnut Fan - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 08:46 AM EDT (#21095) #
Congratulations Boston. I for one am bummed though be the magic of those guys being losers is over. Now they are just another team to be hated much like the Yankees as the ownership there is of the "buy a championship" mentality that George Steinbrenner prescribes to.
_Moffatt - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 08:50 AM EDT (#21096) #
No Jays Roundup Today... Today is a day reserved for the Bo Sox.
_Daryn - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 09:18 AM EDT (#21097) #
I'm glad they won because I'm tired of listening to the uninformed debate the existence of the curse....

if you want to debate it (Landry) at least get the facts right!
_elston - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#21098) #
Congrats to the Red Sox from a 50+ years Yank fan. I loved the way they grinded out their at bats and much credit should go to Theo for putting together a bunch of guys with that great hitting approach. Now, I don't want to take anything away from the Red Sox because I think they would have beaten St. Louis no matter how well the Cards played; however, the Cards, with the exception of Larry Walker, were absolutely gutless in the last 3 games and it seemed they never recovered from the 1st game loss. So what's that for LaRussa the genius, 8 WS game losses in a row.
_Kevin Pataky - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 09:57 AM EDT (#21099) #
C onvienant
U nexpected
R eoccuring
S porting
E vent
Pistol - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 10:04 AM EDT (#21100) #
Why do reporters insist on asking questions that they know they wont get answers to?

Last night, for example, Epstein is being interviewed on Fox and hes asked what hes going to do with all the free agents on the team. The team just won the World Series for the first time in 86 years and you think thats on his mind when hes spraying champagne on everyone in sight?

I was hoping hed say who cares, were all going to get shitfaced now!
Mike Green - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 10:07 AM EDT (#21101) #
The Red Sox were indeed the best team in baseball this year, and are full value of their rings.

Their sweep of the Cardinals reflects this, but also chance. The Cardinals are a fine, fine team who played near their worst for 4 straight games. This happens to every team, but it must be especially painful to have it occur at the most visible and important time.

There is no curse, but there is chance and it can be just as cruel.
Mike Green - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 10:14 AM EDT (#21102) #
full value for their rings.

"I will not post before the first round of caffeine is coursing through my veins"
_Tyler - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#21103) #
Is there anyone out there still willing to make the case that the Cardinals are the better team?
_DeMarco - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#21104) #
Congratulations Red Sox!

Now my 66 year old father who was born and grew up an hour outside of Boston finally has some piece. I was pretty sure at one point he was going to cry.
Named For Hank - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#21105) #
And your grandma got her birthday wish, too, DeMarco.

I thought it was going to be a great series, and I enjoyed the first game a lot. But I fell asleep during the ninth inning last night. Really! I woke up when Vanessa said "Holy crap, they actually won it! Hey, were you asleep?"
_Spicol - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#21106) #
Is there anyone out there still willing to make the case that the Cardinals are the better team?

Does it matter now?
_Jobu - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#21107) #
No roundup? Now where am I gonna post my useless banter and latest Molina! plot lines?

I guess if I'm forced to be serious I'll say this, I don't get why some people assume they will lose half their team to free angency. I mean everyone on that team is officaly as much a part of Boston history as any of their mayors or scholars, and they certainly have the payroll to keep them. They don't seem to be a business like the Leafs in which the owners know full well that they can put Molinas! on the ice and sell out everynight, they actualy take pride in the team and want to win it seems.
_Chuck Van Den C - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#21108) #
Jobu, I'd say that the Red Sox may lose several of their players to free agency not because the team can't afford them, but because many of the players won't be worth the money they'll be seeking and the team will elect not so re-sign them.

* Pedro is fragile and could fall apart at any moment. Would you give him a $40M, 3-year deal?

* Lowe may have pitched well in the playoffs but not so during the past two seasons. Is he worth $6-8 per year?

* Varitek had a terrific season but he'll be 33 next year. Catchers don't age particularly well. He'll want a 3-year contract.

* Is Cabrera worth $6-8M?

* I believe Bellhorn and Mueller are FA's. I'd expect them to sign Bellhorn (I can't see them ever making Reese a starter, except as plan B at shortstop) though perhaps not Mueller, with Youkilis in the wings.

* I believe a bunch of reliers are FA's: Williamson, Timlin, Embree, Mendoza, Myers, Leskanic. Some may stay, some may go. Whatever the market dictates.

* I do believe they will sign Mirabelli. He has been a nice back-up for a couple of years and is Wakefield's catcher.
robertdudek - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#21109) #
I hope that when Nomar next plays at Fenway there is a massive ceremony to award him his ring. It's a little sad that the soul of the team for so long was not on the field celebrating.
_Moffatt - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#21110) #
Is there anyone out there still willing to make the case that the Cardinals are the better team?

It's certainly possible. I mean even the Jays swept some teams this year.

If the Jays sweep the Yankees in a 4 game series, they suddenly don't become better than the Yankees.
robertdudek - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 11:53 AM EDT (#21111) #
I don't think Bellhorn has enough service time to be a free agent.
_tangotiger - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#21112) #
http://www.tangotiger.net/scouting/scout_Results.html
I don't think it's fair to say that the Cards, save for Walker, were gutless. That play by Pujols to get the runner at home was tremendous. If he makes that play 100 times, how often will that ball be thrown away, allowing even 2 runs to score. I'm guessing an average 1B will throw that ball away 50 times on that kind of throw. I don't know how good Pujols is, but he certainly looked good at his throws at home. The fans don't think that his arm is all that good (see link for scouting results).

The Cards did look like they were shell-shocked during the whole game.

I've been a Redsox fan as long as I've been an Expos fan (1977 I think). I'm a bigger fan of Expos players (Pedro, Vlad, Walker, Cabrera). When Vlad hit that "clutch" grand slam, I was overjoyed, even though it was against the Sox. When the Sox lost in 86, I felt deflated. Now? It's not exhiliration, perhaps because I live in Northern NJ, and I have no contact with other Sox fans. No, right now, it's just relief.
_#2JBrumfield - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:04 PM EDT (#21113) #
"Now we can look forward to seeing and hopefully beating the world champions on opening day :)"........"but not the arrogant fans who'll fill the place ;)"

When my girlfriend and I were in Tampa Bay (actually St.Petersburg) to see the D-Rays and the Red Sox at the Trop in August, it really felt like a home game for Boston. Even before the game, we went to a shopping mall called "The Pier", which is a huge tourist attraction/trap in St. Pete's. We honestly thought we were in Boston, it seemed like everyone was wearing a Red Sox hat or a t-shirt. We didn't see one person wearing any D-Rays gear until we got to the park.

Even though I'm not a D-Rays fan, it was kind of depressing the way Boston fans just took over the place as they won 5-2 on a complete game effort by Schilling and a homer by Varitek. Not that anyone came over to bother us but I just felt the Red Sox fans were really arrogant, so I'm really afraid they'll be as arrogant as Yankees fans, if not more so, next year. Still, I saw the t-shirt of the year after that game. It was a white t-shirt in big black letters that read "Jeter Sucks A Rod". Who knew we were watching the eventual World Series champions that night. It was just after the Sox made those deals to get Cabrera, Roberts, and Mientkiewicz.

I'm sure Red Sox-Jays games will really give the Yankees-Jays games a run for the money in 2005 when it comes to attendance. It'll be a good year to be a Red Sox fan, enjoying the World Series hangover. It was kinda like 1993 for us, getting to rest on the World Series laurels - and when the Jays won it again, that was even better! Those were the days......
_Chris H - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:04 PM EDT (#21114) #
Congratulations to the Red Sox!

I couldnt be happier for their fans and those that suffered throught the heartbreaks of the 70's and 1986.

I think a lot of people in my office are still stunned...

C.
_Geoff North - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:06 PM EDT (#21115) #
So, who is the bigger deity? Ortiz or Shilling? Walk-off heroics against the Yankees, or near crippled pitching heroics?
_Marc - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:08 PM EDT (#21116) #
Bellhorn is not a free agent and the team has an option on Mueller.

Baseball America has posted the minor league free agents and the only important one on the Jays' list appears to be Felix Romero, whom I would like to see the Jays resign and challenge with an assignment in AA. I like his strikeout totals and relatively low number of walks.
_Chris H - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#21117) #
I dont know...you could also make a case for Lowe pitching the final game in each of the 3 playoff series. I think every player on this team will be remembered for a very, very long time. This is the team that finally won.

Even if Pedro, Lowe, Varitek, Mueller leave...they will ALWAYS be in the hearts of RedSox Nation.
_Moffatt - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#21118) #
Baseball America has posted the minor league free agents and the only important one on the Jays' list appears to be Felix Romero

Where is that available, Marc? I'd like to see who is on the list.
_Jobu - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#21119) #
near crippled pitching heroics

The guy isn't an amputee, his ankle hurt, he got it froze, football players do that kinda stuff for fun in the off season.
_Moffatt - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#21120) #
his ankle hurt, he got it froze, football players do that kinda stuff for fun in the off season.

That's not at all what happened, Jobu. The stuff they did to Curt's ankle was absolutely revolutionary. It's not at all the same thing that happens in football.

There's tons of stories out there on exactly what Curt was put through. You may want to look at them closer before making such judgements.
_Jobu - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:16 PM EDT (#21121) #
Nah I'm good now. They messed with his tendons...yadda yadda yadda...practice on cadavers..... holds his own press confrences....signs to the ballpark, the dude ain't the incarnation of Roy Hobbs. And you can clearly see he's not nearly crippled, just in pain.
_Marc - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:18 PM EDT (#21122) #
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/news/041028falist.html
Moffatt, COMN for BA's list of minor league free agents...
_Moffatt - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#21123) #
Thanks Marc! There are some decent names in there for the Jays, such as Nakamura, Pond, Haines, and Sequea. No one earth shattering, but then again, these are minor league free agents.
_Jobu - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:23 PM EDT (#21124) #
NO! Not Stubby!! Oh man....forget Delgado, the Jays have a new number one FA to worry about.
_Brian B. - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#21125) #
I'd say hang on to Anton French.

He got the Syracuse offense going last year and the Skychiefs need to get going and learn how to be winners.
_Magpie - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#21126) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/041028
I would expect the Red Sox to try and re-sign Varitek. He's 32 yes, with 830 career games, (In other words, younger than Posada!) but its a very tough position to fill and he may mean more to that team than any of the other free agents. I can't see Derek Lowe coming back - the Sox have tons of pitching prospects, and there are bound to be free agent options. I can't see them wanting to give Orlando Cabrera at least three years when Hanley Ramirez is moving up through the system. Which leaves Pedro...

But they can start worrying about all that stuff tomorrow. This is the moment the Sports Guy and his dad have been waiting for all their lives. COMN.

I was about to become Just Another Baseball Fan again.

Because that's all we ever wanted.
_Tyler - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#21127) #
Some 3B available for next season as minor league free agents, with their mjEQA. I threw in Hattig for comparison purposes.

Mike Coolbaugh 0.266
Kevin Orie 0.258
Chris Truby 0.256
Russ Johnson 0.246
John Hattig 0.240
Eric Hinske 0.240
_Marc - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 01:03 PM EDT (#21128) #
I would look at Jared Sandberg as a third base depth option (He's listed at 2B on the BA free agent list but it is a mistake). He has great bloodlines (Ryan Sandberg's nephew) and he has Branyan-power. The only problem is that he is a swing for the fences kind of guy with low average and poor BB/K numbers. He kills mistake pitches and below average pitchers (ie. a Josh Towers type). But if he ever puts it together, he could be a good source of power off the bench. He certainly has more upside than Orie, Coolbaugh, Truby or Johnson.
_Tyler - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 01:13 PM EDT (#21129) #
I wasn't looking so much in terms of upside, but more in terms of a cheap place filler for next year, as if there is a God, Hinske will be dealt. Or buried Hoffa style somewhere in the 'Dome.
_Moffatt - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 01:24 PM EDT (#21130) #
I know Hinske had the season from hell, and probably won't live up to the rest of his contract, but Dude.. that's really harsh.
_Chuck Van Den C - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#21131) #
Bellhorn is not a free agent and the team has an option on Mueller.

I was suspicious that neither were FA's having not heard it mentioned in the playoffs. Marc, do you know of a specific web site that has the definitive word on all players' status?
Craig B - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#21132) #
Nah. I'm kinda happy for them (or some of them) actually.

But "sour grapes" doesn't have anything to do with whether you're happy for them or not.

One hot summer's day a Fox was strolling through an orchard
till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which
had been trained over a lofty branch. "Just the thing to quench
my thirst," quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and
a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a
One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again
and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to
give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: "I
am sure they are sour."
Pistol - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 01:59 PM EDT (#21133) #
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1098915010224&call_pageid=969907739730&col=970081600908&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes
Some offseason chatter.....COMN.

Toronto Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi declined comment yesterday on a report the team was talking with the Cincinnati Reds about moving third baseman Eric Hinske.

"Rumours," Ricciardi said. "And I don't want to get into the business of commenting on every rumour that's out there."

Ricciardi's counterpart in Cincinnati, Dan O'Brien, confirmed he talked with the Jays, but only in "a general fact-finding sense," as all GMs talk with all teams every off-season.

.....

Ricciardi did confirm the Jays are talking with potential free-agent catcher Gregg Zaun and arbitration-eligible backup infielder Frank Menechino..
_Marc - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#21134) #
Chuck, Ken Bumbaco has a good site with fairly accurate free agent info... I can't remember the site address offhand, but if you Google his name it will come up. If you have any specific player questions in regards to free agency or arbitration eligibility I can probably answer them (I have self compiled lists of both but only on paper).
_Mick - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#21135) #
Craig, I am familier with the Aesop fable; the wonders of a lit degree in world of MBAs (and JDs).

But the origination of the phrase has very little to do with its current actual usage (primarily, reacting negatively to a positive thing out of personal spite). And they are more related than you admit; essentially, my fox is happy to admit that some of the grapes on the vine are pretty sweet but that many of those will be -- sorry, mixing fruit metaphors here -- cherry-picked quite shortly.

I do think the Red Sox will lose a lot of people this winter? Why? It's cynical, but for the first time ever,really,they can afford to. Given that (1) this is a business and (2) the Boston fans will continue to pack Fenway regardless of performance next year, basking in the glow of the Series and of the Pats' third Super Bowl win and (3) they can unload some huge contracts and ride out any resulting backlash, as someone above noted, for several 100-loss seasons if necessary, in the "finally" afterglow.

And Bosox fans are savvy enough to understand that Pedro for $15MM can wander off to Anaheim (preferably not the Bronx, I'd think) and they'll go with Bronson Arroyo, thank you, or Mueller can walk and that makes room for Kevin Youkilis, and as much as Jason Varitek is revered, if the Dodgers offer him $9MM, then Doug Mirabelli and Kelly Shoppach will do quite nicely, thank you. When Tom Hicks writes Derek Lowe a check for $11M, Fenway will shake with laughter.

As businessmen, I think the Sox ownership will see the opportunity to save (and make) shloads of dough this offseason.
_Chuck Van Den C - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 02:25 PM EDT (#21136) #
Paper? Haven't computers afforded us a paperless world? (he says, surrounded by piles of paper knee deep in every direction he turns.)

Thanks for the info Marc. For Ken Bumbaco's web site, click here.

He lists Bellhorn as an FA, but I agree with Robert that I don't believe he has enough service time. He's likely arb eligible and not a FA. Boston is not committed to him in 2005, but could be if they were so inclined (as I'm guessing they likely are).
_Ducey - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 02:29 PM EDT (#21137) #
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/news/041028falist.html
BA has a list of minor league free agents COMN

For the Jays the only ones of interest are Sequea, Matos (the pitcher), Felix Romero and Ozias. ALop is on the list but I doubt the Jays will sign him.

It is enlightening to look at the list and see all the names of guys that once were touted prospects. Lots of ex-Jay minor leaguers including Coco, Cubillan, Kevin Witt - even Homer Bush
_Chuck Van Den C - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 02:33 PM EDT (#21138) #
As businessmen, I think the Sox ownership will see the opportunity to save (and make) shloads of dough this offseason.

I agree that the Boston roster will be turned over quite dramatically. Epstein will have to continue his thick-skinned ways as the comps to Florida's dismantling (dismantlings?) are sure to be prominent in The Nation. Sentimentality may cause otherwise level-headed Red Sox fans (insert joke here) to lose their objectivity, and make them pine for Derek Lowe.
Mike Green - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 02:40 PM EDT (#21139) #
For the benefit of those not in Toronto, the front page of the Sun has a WS picture with the headline "Ruth-less". That headline writer is way above replacement value.

Hanley Ramirez is a year away. He hit .310/.364/.389 in the FSL this year, and was promoted to AA Portland where he hit well in 32 games. I agree with Magpie, however, that Varitek will be back.

the Sox have tons of pitching prospects

Quien? Abe Alvarez maybe, and then?
Mike Green - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#21140) #
I am quite sure that the Red Sox payroll next year will be pretty comparable to what it was this year. This situation is nothing like the Marlins.
_Chuck Van Den C - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 02:48 PM EDT (#21141) #
I am quite sure that the Red Sox payroll next year will be pretty comparable to what it was this year. This situation is nothing like the Marlins.

Agreed. If the team simply replaces the departing players with players of comparable value, the payroll will go down. But I agree that they'll keep their payroll where it is and actually become an even better team, on paper, getting more value for their Pedro/Lowe money than Pedro/Lowe.
_Marc - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 02:48 PM EDT (#21142) #
I also raised an eyebrow at the suggestion that the Sox have a lot of pitching prospects... It looks to me like they are one of the worst for quality pitching depth. They don't have one high-ceiling prospect above AA that I know of (no Alvarez does not count... he's at best a number three guy, but more likely 4 or 5).
_Mick - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#21143) #
become an even better team, on paper,

Chuck, you can't have it both ways ... weren't you just whining about there being too much paper in the world? THen you go an carelessly use THAT phrase?

Tsk.
_Magpie - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#21144) #
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3593
Don't think anybody's mentioned it yet - the NL Internet awards are up. COMN.
_Mike in CT - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 02:58 PM EDT (#21145) #
Congratulations to Terry Adams on winning a ring!! I'm kidding of course. Was he even on the post-season roster?
_Magpie - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 03:03 PM EDT (#21146) #
the suggestion that the Sox have a lot of pitching prospects

You're right, the best prospects are all at the lower levels. Lots can happen between now and whenever. (Huh?)

But assuming Martinez and Lowe depart, they're left with Schilling - a clear number 1 - Arroyo and Wakefield in the rotation. They need a number 2 and a number 3 (that kind of quality). What's out there besides Pavano? Chris Carpenter (hey, a local boy)...Russ Ortiz... Jaret Wright... Roger Clemens....

OK, last guy probably not a candidate.
_Pete Warren - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 03:12 PM EDT (#21147) #
I seem to remember that Tony Fiore (who is now a minor league FA)
threw a wicked palmball and had an ERA under 3 in 2002 or '03?
_Pete Warren - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#21148) #
Wow look at these names....Doug Linton, Chris Michalak, Pedro Swann, Paco Martin.

I predict Mike Venafro will be a Blue Jay signee this year.
_DeMarco - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 03:19 PM EDT (#21149) #
Based on what I'm hearing about how the Yankess and Red Sox will respond this offseason, it's clear to me that the Jays will not make the playoffs for the next 5 years at least
_Mick - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#21150) #
Well,that's that then. Thanks for stopping by everyone. See you in 2009.
robertdudek - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#21151) #
I can't find a precise service time listing for Bellhorn, but looking at his career, he spent most of the early years bouncing from the minors to majors and back. My estimation is that he has about 4.7 years of service time right now, which would make him a potential free agent after 2006 unless he is non-tendered.
_DeMarco - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#21152) #
It's just disheartening to hear the Yankee's are going to get RJ and Beltran, while the Sox, who just won the world series, will improve there team by shedding bad contracts and bring in better players.

How can the Jays compete with this? I mean Frank Cattalanatto may be there 1st baseman and clean-up hitter.

My only hopes rest in Halladay rebounding and Bush, League, Rosario and McGowan developing into great pitchers.
_Spicol - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#21153) #
Based on what I'm hearing about how the Yankess and Red Sox will respond this offseason, it's clear to me that the Jays will not make the playoffs for the next 5 years at least

Maybe 10! Maybe 86!

Pete, do you ever get tired of being so negative?
_DeMarco - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#21154) #
I have always been a realist, and while I will always support the Jays no matter what, unless there are changes in baseball, it will be a tough future for Jays fans.
_Tyler - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#21155) #
I'll use this news of the Red Sox dumping bad contracts and spending smarter to push my own agenda, since that seems to be the thing to do. Give away Hinske if necessary (the Hoffa-esque enshrinement having been deemed harsh) and for God's sake, don't resign Delgado. The only way you can win in a division like this with a payroll like the Jays is by getting a better than 1:1 return on your investments. Delgado won't offer that. Ditch him.
_Nicholas - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 04:05 PM EDT (#21156) #
Off-topic Astros pick up option on Biggio, decline option on Kent. WhiteSox Thomas and Everett will be back with team next year...
_DeMarco - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#21157) #
I'm glad to see Biggio stay with the Astro's.

Ricciardi is taking the right approach with Delgado, offer him what they can (without overpaying), and let him decide what is most important.

I would hate to see Delgado in another uniform, however but the Jays can't afford to keep him at any cost.

I apologize to anyone that finds me negative, I'm still recovering from an awful season hangover. As the second season progresses and the Jays roster rounds out, I'm sure I will become more positive.
robertdudek - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 04:10 PM EDT (#21158) #
For the most part, the high paid players on the Sox are the ones who are good players. They may lose some of them, but they wopn't replace them with better players unless they spend a ton.
_Hamboy - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#21159) #
Now that Sox has finally won WS, I can now think about other team...

I'm thinking there are two ways that Jays could make the playoff within 5 years, unless there's something dramatic happens to how MLB operates, ie salary cap, or all of Jays young starters/prospects matures in incredible rate all together.

1. Jays match the payrolls of both Yankeens and Red Sox. Since this isn't very likely, despite Ted Rogers gouging me on my cable rate, this option is thown out of discussion completely.

2. With Les Expos moving to become Washington Senators/Congressmen/Presidents, Jays could lobby MLB to realign moved franchise into AL East and have Jays become NL East franchise. I don't know how feasible this might be, but this would give a chance to Jays who are squeezed in same division as US' biggest markets.

Thoughts?

Also, what do you think of Craig Counsell as ss/3b for Jays?
_DeMarco - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#21160) #
I'm against Craig Counsell.

At this point I would support re-alignment. However I would prefer a salary cap.
_jsoh - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#21161) #
what do you think of Craig Counsell as ss/3b for Jays?

Well. He'll probably hit better than (say) me, and odds are he'll be a little bit better defensively than me.

On the other hand, I'm younger, and much, much, much cheaper. On that basis alone, I'm a much better sign for the Jays.

Of all the potential 3B options, you managed to find the one who's hit worse than Hinske this year (241/330/315) and made $3M last year.

And last year wasnt exactly out of line. He hasnt hit a lick since 2000.
_MatO - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 04:31 PM EDT (#21162) #
But jsoh, will you give us 110% effort?
_Hamboy - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#21163) #
I don't think Counsell will make another $3M this year... $1M or less, and I'm not suggesting he'd be starting, more like utility that could fill in all 4 infield position, with history of little pop in the bat with speed.
_jsoh - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#21164) #
But jsoh, will you give us 110% effort?

Ordinarily, no. But if JP sees that as the dealbreaker, then I suppose I'll toss in the extra 10%.

Call it the home-town discount.
_jsoh - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#21165) #
I'm not suggesting he'd be starting, more like utility that could fill in all 4 infield position

I suppose he could, but why bother? Menechino does precisely that, and has the remarkable ability of actually being able to hit a baseball.

Heck. Its not as if Counsell has ever been dipped in the magical St. Rey pixie dust, so the theory of "he'll be our glove man" (ie, the Gomez defence) doesnt even wash.

The only thing that I can see that Counsell would be good for is showing all the youngin's da ringz baby! and how a couple of timely hits can get you an LCS MVP trophy.
_Spicol - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#21166) #
I apologize to anyone that finds me negative

Don't apologize, just stop trying to pass your negativity off as fact. I'm completely on board with being realistic, but you're going a huge step beyond.

Based on what you're hearing, it's clear to you that the Jays won't make the playoffs in the next five years?

What you're hearing are guesses and opinions. The clarity you say that you possess isn't afforded to the most knowledgable of professional baseball men, let alone a fan. When you write such a statement and word it with such conviction, there's no point to it. You're not inviting discussion, you're not expressing a worthwhile thought, you're just being negative without merit or fact to back up your opinion.

If you think the Jays are going to have a rough go of it then say that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with an opinion. But don't say that you know the Jays are hopeless, because there is no way you could know that.
_Wunderbat - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#21167) #
I don't really want the Jays to sign Counsell, but he would be a wonderful novelty, surpassing Tom Wilson as man with the most entertaining stance since Tony Batista. Maybe we should put those three in a lineup, one after another, with the hopes of freaking out the pitcher.
_Hamboy - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#21168) #
Okay, okay... forget that I said anything about Counsell... I just happened to like the guy for some reason, and the stance is classic!

Does anyone know what happened to Dave Nilson? He was decent on-base guy with pop... and not to mention class, as he quit baseball for year 2000 to play for Australia Olympic team...
_Rob - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#21169) #
http://www.jr-digital.com/cjcl.asx
Bill "The Spaceman" Lee will be on the FAN sometime this hour, if anyone's interested.
COMN for audio feed, or go to fan590.com.
_Scott Levy - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#21170) #
A couple of points to make today...

* Mike Venafro is a free agent, meaning he'll have a guaranteed Toronto Blue Jays contract offered to him before Thanksgiving. Doug Creek -> Valerio de los Santos -> Mike Venafro. Wow.

* I hope the Red Sox sign Pavano and Clement to replace Pedro and Lowe. Pavano is a 4.50 ERA waiting to happen next year (that or worse if he's in the AL) and Clement not only has to go from NL to AL, but has two years of Dusty Baker on his arm.

* Pedro will go to the Yankees, at 3 years and 12 million per. George already has a contract written up.

* Did anyone else breathe a sigh of relief when Palmeiro re-upped with Baltimore?

* So..any bets on what the annual A's/Jays trade will be this year? I'm leaning towards Ligtenberg for Rhodes right now. A deal for Durazo wouldn't surprise me either, but that's a long shot.

* Let the off-season begin! The good (or bad) news for Jays fans is that JP tends to finish his main off-season work before Christmas or somewhere around there...so we don't have to wait long for the meaty transactions to take place.
_Nolan - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#21171) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/fallclassic/news/story?id=1911287
Wow, I love how Curt Schilling isn't afraid to speak his mind on different issues. I just read a short blurb at ESPN (COMN)with Schilling talking about how there is no way the Sox would have won the WS if A-Rod had been on the team. He comments on how Alex would have ruined the chemistry of the team and how other players have told him (Curt) about the negative impact Rodriguez can have on a team.
_Vernons Biggest - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 08:23 PM EDT (#21172) #
He comments on how Alex would have ruined the chemistry of the team and how other players have told him (Curt) about the negative impact Rodriguez can have on a team.

That would explain alot.
_R Billie - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#21173) #
Somehow I don't think Alex Rodriguez was responsible for the Yankees falling after getting out to a 3-0 lead. There was the lack of starting pitching, the blown save by Rivera, and offence from people other than Rodriguez that caused that team problems in the four straight losses. Two of which were extra inning games.

Schilling can say whatever he wants now because his team won the World Series. But if Epstein had a choice between Cabrera and Rodriguez (salary not being an issue) I don't think there's any question who he'd want.
_Grimlock - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 10:06 PM EDT (#21174) #
Schilling has a big mouth. Reminds me Grimlock of Chris Chelios and Brett Hull. Me Grimlock wishes those guys would just shut up!
_DaveInNYC - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 10:56 PM EDT (#21175) #
Thank You JOBU!!!

Finally, someone who realizes that Curt Schilling is Curt Schilling's biggest fan. Okay okay, the guy pitched hurt... and? People are making it seem like he is the first player ever in professional sports, let alone baseball, to play hurt. How dramatic, what a hero!

Give me a break. Again to refer to what Jobu was saying, football players play with FAR WORSE injuries every week during THE REGULAR SEASON!

So please, can everyone just take it easy over Schilling? There was nothing heroic about it, just a guy that pitched hurt when he had to. Don't let Schilling convince you that he's the most legendary pitcher of all time.
_Jobu - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 11:42 PM EDT (#21176) #
well....I try...

Is anyone else listening to the Fan's sports updates? Apparently several players filed for FA today including king carlos, beltre, beltran, ordonez and more. Anyone here this or have a link?
_Rob - Thursday, October 28 2004 @ 11:46 PM EDT (#21177) #
http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c=sportsnetwork&page=/mlb/news/AAN3572343.htm
Link to FA story - COMN. About 20 guys mentioned, including Carlos, Pedro, Beltran, Beltre.
_Jobu - Friday, October 29 2004 @ 12:09 AM EDT (#21178) #
Schilling just had a parade thrown in his honour at Disney world. That does not surprise me in the least....
_Jobu - Friday, October 29 2004 @ 01:49 AM EDT (#21179) #
Ohhhhhh....NOW I get it! "Hazzard" is the name of the county!
_steve - Friday, October 29 2004 @ 02:11 AM EDT (#21180) #
if the jays move to the national league, they don't have to worry about a DH. that will save a TON of money. hopefully that happens
_Ryan Lind - Friday, October 29 2004 @ 02:43 AM EDT (#21181) #
I will cry if the Jays move to the NL.

Watching Roy Halladay bat is just not fun to me.
_Daryn - Friday, October 29 2004 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#21182) #
Jays move to the what???

oh wait... its conjecture...

The reason I dread watching the Doc bat is because he was never expected to...if you go back to High School he was probably the best hitter on his team....

If we get rid of the DH, it'll take 5-10 years, but pitchers will learn to hit....
_Daryn - Friday, October 29 2004 @ 09:58 PM EDT (#21183) #
Link to FA story - COMN. About 20 guys mentioned, including Carlos, Pedro, Beltran, Beltre.

I had Beltre for 4 years on my Roto team.. until this year... Damn.. but I got A-Rod when he was in AAA..

What do you suppose Beltran is worth???.. 5x15??
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