QOTD: Carter & Alomar for McGriff & Fernandez

For me, it's easy ... 1974, I think, Bobby Bonds for Bobby Murcer. I couldn't understand how the Giants could give up the new Willie Mays OR how the Yanks could give up the heir to Mantle. It was widely reported as "the first trade of two $100,000 players" (how quaint now, huh?) ... and it got my dad to talk about the time everyone thought Joe D. was going to be dealt for Teddy Ballgame.

Carter and Alomar for McGriff and Fernandez was not the first for me, but it was definitely the one I remember most. I remember getting a phone call about it from a friend who didn't know baseball. He said that the Jays and Padres had made a huge deal, but didn't remember the names. When I threw out Alomar's name and got a positive response, I remember letting out a whoop. I walked on air the rest of the day.

Winter 1977: Texas sends Bert Blyleven to Pittsburgh, sends Adrian Devine, Tommy Boggs, and Eddie Miller to the Atlanta Braves, and sends Tom Grieve and Ken Henderson to the New York Mets. The Braves send Willie Montanez to the Mets. The Pirates send Al Oliver and Nelson Norman to the Rangers. The Mets send Jon Matlack to the Rangers and send John Milner to the Pirates.

Damaso Garcia for Craig McMurtry. What can I tell you; I was young and green.

Part way into the 1986 season the Blue Jays traded Doyle Alexander who the players carried off the field less than a year earlier, for some prospect named Duane Ward.

What year was McGriff and Fernandez for Carter and Alomar? I remember my mom coming down into our basement and telling me about it. At the time, I must have been 8 or 9, didn't know too much about baseball outside of the Blue Jays, and I was so upset. Little did I know.

Gary Carter to the Mets for Brooks, Fitzgerald, Winningham, and Youmans. This was the one that really made me sit up and take notice. I rememeber being fairly impressed with the Keith Hernandez deal in '83, but it didn't impinge on my consciousness like the Gary Carter one did because I was an Expos fan.

I suppose Larry Parrish for Al Oliver in '82 also was important, but I wasn't following things as closely then.

For some reason, the first one that I can remember really having a reaction to was back in July of 1985, when the Jays shipped Len Matuszek to the Dodgers for Al Oliver. I didn't have any attachment to Matuszek, but it struck me at the time as if they were giving up on him a little early, since they had just picked up towards the end of spring training, but I was excited that Oliver was going to fill Cliff Johnson's "0". Imagine my thrill when Heathcliff came back at the deadline as "00".

I think it was Jerry Howarth (although it might have been Tom Cheek) who described the deal as the perfect sort of trade, because it worked out well for both teams. That was probably an optimistic account of Len's future, but it appealed to my innate sense of justice as a youngster.

Scott, be honest, did you do that from memory or did you have to look it up? fter 27 years, I still can't wrap my head around the intricacies of that four-team trade, even with one of my favorite all-time players involved.

But it goes to prove the old adage, doesn't it ... no matter how big a trade, the team that gets the best player will win the trade. Blyleven helped the Bucs get a ring in '79 on his way to the Hall of Fame ... oh, wait ...

It sure seems like Al Oliver trades had impacts on a lot of people.

Jesse Barfield for Al Lieter was also a impact trade for me.

Bandwagoning...

Carter & Alomar for Fernandez & McGriff. Just the way 'my' team had been transformed in that moment made it have quite an impact on me.

Being an Expo fan at the time (1972 or 1973?). Ken Singleton and Mike Torres to Baltimore for Dave McNally and Rich Coggins. An awful trade for the Expos as McNally retired and Singleton went on to have a very good career.

So did Torrez, for that matter. He started the Bucky Dent game for the Red Sox, as I recall.

Let's see ... 40 wins in three years with the 'Spos. Then he ripped off seasons of 20-16-17-16-16-9-10-9-10. Lesson: never trade a 27-yeard-old 15 game-winner. Yeah ... that was a bad trade!

Wendel Clark for Mats Sundin.

Oh wait, um, I mean ah, Carter & Alomar for Fernandez & McGriff.

What year was McGriff and Fernandez for Carter and Alomar?

1990. I remember being very excited about it, but probably for the wrong reasons... I knew Carter had pushed McGriff for the home run title in 1989, and I knew Carter was a big RBI guy. I doubt I had any clue that Alomar was the best player in the deal. It was a different time at The Star - I remember Dave Perkins writing that it was a great team being assembled, but cautioning that it may take them a year to come together.

Actually, the first trade that really made an impression on me was the Staub for Jorgensen, Foli and Singleton trade. I checked- that was in 72. The Singleton/Torrez for McNally/Coggins trade occurred in 74.

Staub was the heart and soul of the Expos club, but it was a deal that made a tremendous amount of sense for them. Staub was the best hitter on the pennant-winning 73 Mets club, but Singleton had the better part of his career ahead of him, and Foli and Jorgensen were useful parts (actually Jorgensen was quite a hitter in 74 and 75 with an OBP around .400).

McGriff, Fernandez for Carter and Alomar will always stand out.

The two that stand out are:

1. Leiter for Barfield. I was crushed, Barfield was my favourite player.

2. Alomar/Carter for Fernandez/McGriff. I had no idea who Alomar was and when my dad told me that we had traded Fernandez and McGriff, I asked if we had gotten Gwynn and/or Bruce Hurst back. No dice.

I guess it worked out okay.

I have to agree with the Staub for Singleton, Jorgenson, and Foli trade. It was the first time my "favourite" player was traded. Although devestating at the time, that trade also taught me how both sides can win in a trade, as Mike has detailed.

Getting David Cone in 92, the NL strikeout leader at the time, for Ryan Thomson and Jeff Kent. I don't recall him doing much for the Jays, but that was the moment I felt the Jays might go all the way. Interesting to note that Kent was traded three times en route to the Giants.

I knew that Torrez pitched for a while after he was traded but I'd forgotten how good he was. I think that fact pushes it into "worst trade of all-time territory".

I remember reading about Alomar in an Abstract a while before the trade and Bill James was raving about him.

From one Ryan C to another (Ryan Cain BTW). The sundine trade traumatized me, Wendel being my hero (had his jersey, and that "captain cruch poster in my room).

Baseball wise. Being only seven at the time, I don't quite recall the Alomar trade at all, just the roster before and after. The first trade that I recall happening, percieving it's cause and effect, and understanding why it happened was the David Cone trade.

Harvey Kuenn for Rocky Colavito (on my 11th birthday).

Just to show how old I am.

Scott, be honest, did you do that from memory or did you have to look it up? fter 27 years, I still can't wrap my head around the intricacies of that four-team trade, even with one of my favorite all-time players involved.

Of course I couldn't remember ALL of it. I did know who Texas got and gave up. The first four-team trade, I think.

Nelson was supposed to be the shortstop of the future. Texas threw him to the wolves as a 21-year-old. He hit about .225 with no power and made a ton of errors. I remember feeling a little sorry for him. Plus, Henderson had a membership at the same tennis club as my parents, and I saw him hanging out at the pool a few times.

Incidentally, the shortstops that followed Norman were Pepe Frias, Bud Harrelson, Mario Mendoza, Mark Wagner and Bucky Dent. God, those were the days.

Let us all take a moment to reflect on the impact Al Oliver has made on our lives.

This may sound weird but I'm not quite old enough to remeber the Alomar Carter trade and I didn't really know whho David Cone was in 92, but I do remeber as a 5 year old when the Jays got Ricky Henderson, I thought he was the best player on the team becasue he was one of the 4 or 5 non Blue Jays who I had heard of at the time

Let us all take a moment to reflect on the impact Al Oliver has made on our lives.

Scott, that's a good meditation for today. It got me thinking, is Oliver the best "A.O." every to play MLB? According to BaseballReference.com. only 11 players with those initials have ever made The Show and only two were All-Stars.

So unless you're a humongous Amos Otis fan or Antonio Osuna really turns it up a notch, we can safely bow down to the greatest A.O. ever. Who needs the Hall of Fame when you got that on your resume??

I don't recall him doing much for the Jays

The Jays were 3-1 in games that Cone started in the 92 playoffs.

QOTD: Carter & Alomar for McGriff & Fernandez

Same here. At the time I was watching Sportsdesk on TSN and for some reason the colour on my tv was off and the Jays uniforms looked a little purple. Of course, the commentator was saying something like "the Blue Jays have a new look..." so initially I thought they changed their uniforms... until a few seconds later when I realized it was The Trade.

Jackie Robinson to the Giants after the end of the 1956 season, I think for Foster Castleman (or maybe Darryl Spencer). I was only 10 years old but that was old enough to know that the Dodgers just shouldn't trade Jackie Robinson and certainly not to the Giants. Robinson, of course, did the honourable thing and retired

-I'll take QOTD for $2000

AlexTrebek: This is the first baseball trade that you remember really catching your attention.

-What is Carter and Alomar for McGriff and Fernandez?

AlexTrebek: Correct.

There is no other answer (question)- this is a Jays board.

Carter and Alomar for McGriff and Fernandez... this is the first trade that I didn't really believe when I heard it. Then I had to call a bunch of friends to figure out if it was true.

Mick, you ask the most intriguing questions. Al Oliver or Amos Otis? I'd take Amos. Oliver was a better hitter, but the differences were not as large as you might think. But, Amos was a much better defender in center (as opposed to a LF/1B). And, Amos was an excellent percentage basestealer and a fine baserunner, whereas Oliver was, let's be kind here, average at best.

I didn't know this, but Amos Otis' nickname was A.O. Man, that's unimaginative. How 'bout Amos (the Prophet) Otis? There are probably 10 nicknames better than that.

Great tangent, Mike. Welcome to ... THE AMOS OTIS NICKNAME CONTEST! Winner will receive a non-cuttlefish prize.

Amos "N-Andy" Otis
Amos Otis "Sistrunk"
"Gosh You've Made" Amos Otis

Whatchagot?

From Dandy Don Meredith: "Otis Sistrunk - From the University of Mars"

Al Oliver or Amos Otis? I'd take Amos. Oliver was a better hitter, but the differences were not as large as you might

Amos Otis admitted after he retired that he used a corked bat for virtually his entire career.

Cone for Kent+. I had no clue who Cone was, as I was only 9 when it happened, but my dad told me he was very good. I believed him. He was right. I'd make that trade 100 times, regardless of how good Kent turned out.

You know, I was thinking about the Cone for Kent trade in connection with the Hall Watch article on second baseman that will be coming soon. My thought was "the seeds of defeat are contained in the fruit of victory".

Carter & Alomar for Fernandez & McGriff.
It was the first trade that I talked about with people outside of my "baseball circle"

I can remember saying, I don't mind dealing Fernandez, this Alomar kid looks pretty hot... But Freddy?

The first time I ever heard of a BIG free Agent signing was Dennis Lamp in 83 that was fun followed by Bill Caudill in about 84...

Those ones made the front page of the Star... I was a delivery boy
That's how I heard about Elvis dying too.. (or going home)

Actually Caudill was acquired by trade for Griffin and Collins.

I can't jump on the Alomar/Carter bandwagon because I was three years old when they made that trade. The first trade I remember (not a significant one, just the first overall) was Otis Nixon to the Dodgers. I think it was in 1997.

After looking it up:
August 12, 1997
Traded Otis Nixon to Los Angeles Dodgers in exchange for Bobby Cripps.

I don't know why I remember that one...was he traded during a game, maybe?

After looking THAT up:
Game Played on Tuesday, August 12, 1997 (N) at Skydome

Nixon cf   
   Brumfield cf 

So I had it right. Thanks to Retrosheet!

This is asking us to DATE ourselves...

I'd like to echo Mick - Bonds for Murcer was a big deal for me. Before there were Blue Jays on this earth, I was (forgive me) a Yankees fan.

Of course, I was born too late to enjoy the glory. I was a Yankees fan during the Horace Clarke years. Hoping desperately that Roger Repoz and Steve Whitaker and Jerry Kenney would lead the pinstripes back to glory...

So my first Big Trade is: Roger Maris to St Louis for Charley Smith.

Actually, Al Oliver played more games in CF (835) than any other position (even 1B - 733) - when he came up, the Bucs had Bob Robertson at 1B, and a couple of guys named Clemente and Stargell at the corner OF spots.

Mind you, I like Amos Otis better than Oliver, too!

Not exactly many degrees of separation between the two AO's. I tell you, I never would have come up with Koosman!

Amos Otis played with Milt May for the 1984 Pittsburgh Pirates
Milt May played with Al Oliver for the 1970 Pittsburgh Pirates

Amos Otis played with Freddie Patek for the 1977 Kansas City Royals
Freddie Patek played with Al Oliver for the 1970 Pittsburgh Pirates

Amos Otis played with Ken Brett for the 1980 Kansas City Royals
Ken Brett played with Al Oliver for the 1974 Pittsburgh Pirates

Amos Otis played with Bob Johnson for the 1970 Kansas City Royals
Bob Johnson played with Al Oliver for the 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates

Amos Otis played with Grant Jackson for the 1982 Kansas City Royals
Grant Jackson played with Al Oliver for the 1977 Pittsburgh Pirates

Amos Otis played with Sandy Alomar Sr. for the 1967 New York Mets
Sandy Alomar Sr. played with Al Oliver for the 1978 Texas Rangers

Amos Otis played with Jerry Koosman for the 1969 New York Mets
Jerry Koosman played with Al Oliver for the 1984 Philadelphia Phillies

"worst trade of all-time territory"

This is a rich topic as well. The first thing I always think of is Ryne Sandberg being thrown in to the Bowa for DeJesus deal...

Amos Otis admitted after he retired that he used a corked bat for virtually his entire career.

Well, he had to hit against Gaylord Perry.

Most of the trades that caught my attention have already been discussed here:

1990 - Alomar/Carter for McGriff/Fernandez
1992 - Cone for Kent and Thompson
1989 - Leiter for Barfield (this one made me sad too, as it broke up The Outfield)

Also, I'd include:
1993 - Rickey for Karsay
1985 - Caudill for Collins and Griffin

The first player acquisition that caught my attention was the Jays' picking up John Mayberry in 1978. At the time, I had no idea why the Royals would trade one of their best hitters.

At the time, I had no idea why the Royals would trade one of their best hitters.

Yeah, the White Rat has kind of filled us all in on that one.

The first Jays deal that got my attention was... Andy Ashby for Mark Lemongello.

I thought it was a good idea at the time. Lemongello was 22 years old, and had just gone 9-14 with a 3.94 ERA for a team that had gone 74-88.

See, we live and learn. Today I'd be saying - 3.94 yeah, but he was pitching in the AstroDome. And he struck out 77 guys in 210 IPT? MISTAKE! MISTAKE!

John Olerud to the Mets for Robert Person was one that I'd always remember. Olerud was my favorite player and he was leaving my favorite team to join my favorite NL team. I still am trying to ignore that he is a Yankee now.

The most recent that sticks out in my memory was Florida trading to acquire Urbina at the trade deadline. I remember Tom and Jerry pondering that one, since Florida wasn't doing all that great in terms of a playoff birth, at the time. I remember Jerry saying that "I guess they must think they have a shot at something".

Little did anybody know what would happen in the Fall.

I can't really remember a first

Hmm... First big trade... Griffen & Collins for Bill Caudill mainly because Griffen was one of my favorites, although in truth none really caught me in a 'wow' manner until first Barfield for Leiter (hated seeing Barfield go), then Alomar & Carter for Fernandez & McGriff since Fernandez has always been one of my favorites and I remember at the time wanting the Jays to get Alomar as I was sure he was a future HOF'er (full time in the majors at just 20? Wow!). Like a few others the David Cone trade was the first to make me jump up and down though... remember telling everyone that this was the year thanks to that trade. Since then none have really excited me that much though. Sigh.

http://www.torontobaseballguys.com
First Jays trade I remember was Doyle Alexander to the Braves to Duane Ward. When you're 10 and Doyle is your last name your standards for 'favourite player' are pretty low.

My first big trade that I remember (I am a youngin and not a lifelong baseball fan) was the McGwire to Cardinals deal. McGwire was the first larger than life superstar I remember (though, to my immature self Joe Carter was) and I couldn't understand why he'd be move as he was becoming even more of a monster.
In the Jays context,the first big trade I remember would be the Clemens for Wells trade. I thought it was awful at first, but I can recall really diggin the Jays side of the deal by the time Boomer made the cover of SI. Wells, appeared to me, to be outperforming The Rocket, Graeme Lloyd appeared servicable (or better), and I loved Homer Bush. Was I ever wrong...

If you're interested in helping me out with an article for wide distribution to encourage support for Tom Cheek in the Frick voting, check out post #84 in the hijack thread. Very sorry for the hijack.

Great thread, lots of interesting conversation. I was 17 by the time the McGriff/Fernandez/Alomar/Carter trade happened so I can't jump on that one.

The earliest trade I can remember that, as Mick put it, made me go "whoa, that's interesting!" happened when I was watching the Expos game on TV. Looking it up, I discovered it was August 4, 1982, so I was 9 and that sounds about right.

Youngblood had played for the Mets in an afternoon game and was dealt to Montreal during the game... He arrived in the Expos dugout during their night game and entered the game in the 6th inning, becoming (so far as anyone can tell) the first player to collect hits for 2 different teams on the same day.

And according to BaseballLibrary, he did it off of two future hall-of-famers, no less -- against Fergie Jenkins in the early game as a met, and against Steve Carlton in the night game as an Expo.

As someone who grew up a Cardinals fan, the first trade I remember with any clarity was 1980 or 1981 - the Cards traded SS Gary Templeton to the Padres for Ozzie Smith.
Heh. I still can't believe that one.