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Janssen is going under the knife and is gone for the year.

Via the Toronto Star...

"The right-hander, who experienced soreness on Tuesday while warming up for a simulated game, will have surgery for a torn labrum in California next Tuesday or Wednesday, and is gone for the season."

Jesse Litsch is listed as the obvious favorite for the 5th slot. Guess this explains the Benitez signing eh?

Also of note: JP is talking trade for another starter. Lets hope he doesn't do anything Ash like (see the trade for he who shall not be mentioned).
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westcoast dude - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#180911) #
Good luck on your surgery and recovery, Casey.
Shaker Mo - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#180912) #

Think we could send Reed Johnson (in an Alex Rios jersey) to SF for Lincecum?

No? Shucks.

Original Ryan - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#180913) #
This really sucks, especially given the nature of this kind of injury.  Hopefully he'll be able to beat the odds and come back from it.
AWeb - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#180914) #
Well, that obviously sucks for both Janssen and the Jays. A torn labrum...shoulder injuries are the worst, but hopefully Janssen can make it back for 2009. Good luck to him in his rehab.

Trading for another starter? Wasn't starting depth a strong part of this team? For a fifth starter, you need someone who can provide a reasonable number of medicore innings. Enter Chacin (if/when healthy himself), Tallet, generic AAA callup here, not some roughly equivalent "proven" fifth starter. I wouldn't have a problem with trading for another top tier starter, but trading away valuable assets (lets face it, the Jays don't have many tradeable valuable assets to spare) for a bottom of the rotation guy would be dumb, since the JAys already have several of those in the system (not to mention a few prospects who could be better than that). After the debacles of last year, I was pleased JP stayed away from the leftover starters on the market this year; don't change now just because Janssen is gone.
Noah - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#180915) #
the real question now is what happens in a year when he comes back.  Litsch will have another year of experience under his belt and youngsters like Purcey and Romero (hopefully) and guys like Brett Cecil will be a year closer to the majors.

Furthermore does an injury like this make the Jays think twice about putting Janssen in the rotation ever again.  My bet is that when he does comeback next season he will be used purely in a bullpen role.  With a major surgery like this now under his belt it'll be better to try to limit the numbers of innings he pitches in a given season.

Original Ryan - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#180916) #
the real question now is what happens in a year when he comes back.

Sadly with this kind of injury, there's a very good chance he won't come back.
Alex Obal - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#180917) #
Are there any recent examples of guys coming back off torn labrums and pitching anywhere near as effectively as they did before?

This stings. I think Litsch is capable of pitching at or around the level Janssen was at in 2006, but obviously we'd like a better 6 starter than Chacin. I hope the thought of trading for a Jason Marquis type (plus cash to cover half his contract) never crosses JP's mind.
Dan Daoust - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:43 AM EDT (#180918) #

"the real question now is what happens in a year when he comes back"

Really?  Right now I think there are some pretty good questions about this year...

I have to agree with the sentiments already expressed here, there's no point giving up assets for another back-end-of-the-rotation guy when we already have Litsch and Chacin.  But boy, there is a lot less room for error (and injuries) for A.J., McGowan and Marcum.

Does it make any sense to be frustrated with the pitching coaches or trainers over this?  I want to blame someone, dammit.

Jevant - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:45 AM EDT (#180919) #
Ouch.  Looks like Benitez just made the team.

Perhaps Reed Johnson will now be moved for a AAA-type starter for depth?  Or just in-house options?

Count me as pessimistic that Jesse Litsch will be effective for the whole year.

Barry Bonnell - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:45 AM EDT (#180920) #

This means that Brandon League will go a long way to determining the season.

Barry Bonnell - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:48 AM EDT (#180921) #

Sadly with this kind of injury, there's a very good chance he won't come back.

J.P: "The good news is he should be totally fine, bounce back in four months he'll be throwing."

I'm confused.

Original Ryan - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#180922) #
This Will Carroll article is a few years old, but I don't think much has changed.  A relevant passage:

[I]f pitchers with torn labrums were horses, they'd be destroyed. Of the 36 major-league hurlers diagnosed with labrum tears in the last five years, only midlevel reliever Rocky Biddle has returned to his previous level. Think about that when your favorite pitcher comes down with labrum trouble: He has a 3 percent chance of becoming Rocky Biddle.
Matthew E - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#180923) #
My reaction:

Suboptimal.
jerjapan - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#180924) #
I don't know much about injuries myself ... what is the long-term prognosis on a torn labrum?  Riccardi seemed optimistic, and he always tells the truth about injuries ...

I also want to blame someone for this, and my first thought was overuse in his first full year in the pen - but 73 innings in 70 games isn't quite as bad as I first thought.  He nearly hit 150 innings in 2005 in the minors, and he's been under that total ever since - I'd guess this is more bad luck than someone's fault, but I'd be keen to here from someone more knowledgeable on the injury front?



Blue in SK - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:53 AM EDT (#180925) #

Maybe I'm being too simplistic, but weren't the Mets interested in Johnson? Johnson plus one or more of Purcey, Thigpen, Lind should net us some pitching in return - shouldn't it?

From the Mets perspective they get their relatively inexpensive RF plus a prospect. Reed's style might be better suited to the NL anyways.

rpriske - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#180926) #

Hey Jeff Weaver is still available!

Uh, Kyle Lohse?

Anyone?

parrot11 - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#180927) #

I don't know much about injuries myself ... what is the long-term prognosis on a torn labrum?  Riccardi seemed optimistic, and he always tells the truth about injuries ...

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but did you really expect that JP would say anything else? They haven't even had the surgery yet. A labrum tear is usually a pretty bad injury, although there are probably degrees of tear of the labrum and such that have to be considered that we don't know about.

ChicagoJaysFan - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#180928) #
Of the 36 major-league hurlers diagnosed with labrum tears in the last five years, only midlevel reliever Rocky Biddle has returned to his previous level. Think about that when your favorite pitcher comes down with labrum trouble: He has a 3 percent chance of becoming Rocky Biddle.

Gil Meche has turned into a solid #4 or so.  I'd say he's better than Rocky Biddle.

Also, 4 years is a pretty long time in current medicine - for example, while not a pitcher, Glaus had his surgery at the time of the article and his numbers the last few years look pretty similar to those earlier in his career (of course this carries the caveat that there is a huge difference between pitching and hitting as far as arm movement is concerned).

I'm not disagreeing with the article, just saying that the 3 percent figure is probably lower than what could be expected now (and was actually probably lower than the success rate at the time of the article).
Pistol - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#180929) #
At this time I wouldn't be inclined to make a trade.  It might be worth kicking the tires of Kyle Lohse though.

If the Jays wanted to (or needed to) free up a couple million they could cut Johnson and go with Stewart in LF.

I did see this morning that the Brewers might have pitchers available - bring back Bush! (half kidding)

Gerry - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 12:28 PM EDT (#180930) #
It's bad news for the Jays but terrible news for Casey Janssen.  Janssen goes from having a chance to establish himself as a major league starter to having an uphill battle to pitch again in the major leagues.  Best wishes to Casey.
Wildrose - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 12:30 PM EDT (#180931) #
A pretty bleak prognosis as Ryan aptly points out. I've always considered Janssen to be fairly close to Marcum in terms of ceiling, now we may never find that out. Personally I'm fine with Litsch as plan A , what's worrisome  is that eventually another spot starter will be required as somebody else will invariably go down.

My money is on Brian Wolfe, who Arnsberg seems to like;

"I mentioned it to (GM) J.P. (Ricciardi)," Arnsberg said. "He's got big shoulders, a live arm, plus stuff, a four-pitch guy and a past of being a starter. Will he get a shot? I don't know. I just go off of my eyes. I'm just throwing my professional opinion out there."

What's the old line about never having enough pitching.........?
jeff mcl - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#180933) #
Kyle Lohse has been spun at the deadline each of the past two seasons, so he could be moved once again pretty easily if we didn't need him after July.  He'd cost about $3 million?  There are worse options (Jeff Weaver)...

Why necessarily assume JP would trade for a bottom of the rotation guy?  He tried to go big with Rios-Lincecum and it might not be a bad idea to go for someone solid with AJ's opt out on the horizon.  Billy Beane's got both Joe Blanton and Rich Harden wearing mini skirts waiting for someone to make him a strong offer.

greenfrog - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 12:45 PM EDT (#180934) #
I also want to blame someone for this, and my first thought was overuse in his first full year in the pen - but 73 innings in 70 games isn't quite as bad as I first thought.

As I mentioned in the Benitez thread, Janssen pitched in 70 games, which is a lot for a young pitcher working out of the pen for the first time. Based on Gibbons's bullpen usage last year, I'm guessing Janssen was also up and warming--without actually entering a game--many more times.

All this is speculative, of course. Even if he had been restricted to, say, 50 games and 55 innings, it may have been only a matter of time before his shoulder blew out. But I remember being unimpressed with the team's exhaustive use of Janssen, and, to a lesser extent, Downs. Besides, it's not as if anything significant was on the line last year--except, perhaps, Gibbons's job.
John Northey - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 12:58 PM EDT (#180937) #
Harden is 26 this season and coming off of 3 injury plagued years and is making a few million. However, his lifetime ERA+ is 123 with 431 K's in 465 IP. A very tempting talent but a very risky one too. Beane isn't known for being generous but this is the type I'd rather JP went for than for a Lohse'r with a 95 ERA+ lifetime who is less likely to be hurt. Higher risk, higher reward and in the AL East you need that high reward to make it and we have lower risk guys here already.
John Northey - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#180938) #
Looking back at Janssen's workload I thought immediately of Jimmy Key. As a rookie in '84 he threw 62 IP over 63 games then became an all-star pitcher as a starter the next season. The Jays tried the same with Jeff Musselman in 87/88 with 68 games and 89 IP in 87 then 15 starts in 88 (124 ERA+). He must've really annoyed someone though as he got just 3 more ML starts and 50 relief appearances after that (just shy of 70 IP). No idea if he was in the minors for part of 88 offhand or if it was injury related ala Janssen.

Anyone have other examples of rookie relievers who threw a similar amount to Janssen who then were starters the next season? Or injuries knocked them off a cliff?
Pistol - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#180939) #
If I'm not mistaken players get physicals before and after the season so I don't think that anything that happened with Janssen was something that happened this year.  If he was worked too much last year I wouldn't think it would suddenly show up in an injury in spring training after a week or two; he should have been at his freshest now.
VBF - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 01:08 PM EDT (#180940) #
This injury really stinks because I really enjoyed watching Casey pitch and he was so reliable. But how many times have the Jays had injuries only to have someone else pick up the slack? I look at McGowan and Marcum last year, heck even Janssen emerged last year as a perfect replacement for Speier.

I am looking at Brian Wolfe, Brandon League, Jason Frasor or even Carter or Camp. These guys are going to step up.

It really sucks for Casey considering the incredibly small percentage of pitchers who come back for the surgery with any significant success. The odds are against him.

dogbus - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 01:28 PM EDT (#180942) #

To pick up on a previous comment, I cannot help but wonder about the training and medical staff of the Blue Jays. 

With the absolutely insane amount of injuries sustained last year and this newest issue with Casey, should they not be taking at least a small part of the blame?  I realize injuries (particularily with pitchers) are one part bad luck,  one part overwork and one part the body of the player but when does it become the responsibility of the training staff to step up and speak to either the coaches or the players about potential problems that may arise? 

Shouldn't a good training staff be monitoring someone very closely if he is making a transition from short relief to starter incase any injuries come up? 

I know nothing about medical issues so I may be way off base here.  Just a thought. 

greenfrog - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#180943) #
Harden is an interesting idea, but I think the price tag would be too high. Something like Lind + Accardo, or Lind + Cecil. Maybe more.

The Janssen injury is unquestionably awful news. He was absolutely brilliant last year, and would have provided much-needed pitching depth this year. I admired his attitude (still do) and wish him the best.

Can the Jays still compete in 2008? I think so. On paper, anyway. Litsch could be an effective 5th starter (especially with our improved infield defense) and the bullpen remains deep and talented. But Janssen's injury gives the team less margin for error. If other players start going down with injuries, it could be all over quickly.

timpinder - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#180944) #

If the Jays could convince Beane to give up Blanton for Lind, Thigpen and pitching prospects such as Ricky Romero, I'd be all for it (I have a feeling that Ricciardi will at least kick at the tires).  Otherwise, I hope Ricciardi stays away from giving up talent to aquire a 5th starter.  By mid-season I imagine at least one of Purcey, Chacin, or Romero could be ready to step in to the Jays' rotation should a starter go down.  Signing Lohse would be fine too since it's only money Ricciardi would be giving up.

Speaking of shoulder injuries, what was Purcey's problem?  If memory serves me correctly, he had shoulder surgery of some kind as well.

China fan - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#180945) #
   In other news, Chacin has been optioned to Syracuse after his disastrous performance against the Yankees yesterday.  So, within the space of 24 hours, the Jays have lost two of the three pitchers who were supposed to compete for the 5th job in the starting rotation.   If we're lucky, Litsch will pitch well enough to justify keeping him in the rotation.   If not, the Jays will definitely need to make a trade.   Purcey might be a long-term hope, but he's not ready to jump into the rotation. 
Wildrose - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#180946) #
Wilner puts in his 2 cents worth, and he does throw the name of David Wells out there to get the blood boiling with some.
John Northey - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#180947) #
Well, Litsch has been improving.

First start: 2 IP, 4 ER on 1 BB, 1 K, 1 HR, 4 H
Second start: 2 IP, 1 ER on 1 BB, 1 K, 0 HR, 3 H
Third start: 4 IP, 1 ER on 0 BB, 6 K, 1 HR, 2 H

His 3 starts were vs Detroit, the Yankees, and Philly respectively. Outside of a horrid first start he has looked good and that 0 BB 6 K outting is great stuff.

Kane Davis might be getting into the picture too. 4 games, 6 1/3 IP but 3 in his last game vs the Yankees. He has allowed just one run on 5 hits with 1 walk and 8 K's so far. Lifetime he has thrown 125 1/3 IP in the majors with just 2 starts out of 107 outtings. 74 BB vs 96 K's with an 89 ERA+. Last year in AAA he threw 53 IP in 41 games with 26-60 BB-K ratio, just 2 HR and 46 hits. The control he is showing so far this spring might show he has crossed a line in his career and is ready to be useful at age 33. Or it could just be dumb luck in 6 1/3 IP :)

No one has thrown more than 3 scoreless innings (total) so far this spring thus no 'he must make the team' situations. Just 3 with 6+ IP, Halladay, Litsch, and Davis.
John Northey - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 02:00 PM EDT (#180948) #
Heh. Wells returning for a 3rd go around?

Lifetime he has a 108 ERA+ and 239 wins so I suspect he'd like another shot to get to 250 wins. He threw 157 IP over 29 games in 2007 with an ERA+ of 77. He walked 42, which is more than he has walked since his first year in his last stint here (1999) outside of the 45 in 206 IP for the Yanks in '02. The 22 HR was high for him as well. Since his 118 ERA+ in 2002 he has got worse each year - 106-104-102-101-77. If someone gives him a shot he'll improve I suspect on that 77 but I'd much rather see Litsch in the 5 hole.

I'd sign Wells to a AAA contract but no more than that. Plus, given Wells past record for outbursts and training, I seriously doubt JP would have any interest whatsoever in him even if he had an ERA+ of 120 last year.
MatO - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#180949) #

The best example of success after labrum surgery is Chris Carpenter who was acrtually better after the surgery than before.

There's a reason why everyone says that you can never have enough pitching.  There is nobody to blame for Janssen's injury because these things just happen.

The_Game - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#180950) #
Yeah...well this sucks. I'm not that surprised, though, I always expect the worst with our luck.

It shouldn't be that big of a deal, this team has the depth to make up for his absence, especially with League's return. Janssen was likely due for a regression anyway.

This injury will probably lead JP to getting another starter from somewhere...but Litsch has earned the #5 job, he deserves to start the season there, and I highly doubt they are going to find anybody that would do any better than Jesse.

Armando Benitez's signing could have a greater impact than many thought if we use him in moderation. He's still pretty solid agaisnt righties, so if we could use him in that kind of a role it would be fine. The thing I fear is that Benitez somehow finds his way into meaningful setup innings in the 7th and 8th innings, which, with this injury, is looking more likely with every passing day.

The projected bullpen to start the season:
BJ Ryan (I don't anticipate any setbacks, he'll be there on March 31), Jeremy Accardo, Scott Downs, Brandon League, Jason Frasor, Brian Tallet/John Parrish, Armando Benitez

I think they'll give Wolfe's job from last year to Armando, and we basically replace Janssen with BJ. It shouldn't be bad at all.
theaub - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#180952) #
I'd have to think Wolfe will make the roster.  He was very good last year (0.99 WHIP), and he's definitely done nothing in the spring to move himself out of a job.  Whether Benitez can even get in shape in three weeks will be an adventure in itself.

I can't say I'm especially high on Litsch as the #5 starter, because it seemed that Boston and New York had their way with him last year.  But he did pitch very well against both of them in late September.  Whether that was a fluke or if he was hitting his spots better will be seen very shortly, although the fact that the Jays don't even need a 5th starter until April 11th means that he might not have to face either of those teams until mid-July anyways.

Finally, as stated above, I just hope JP doesn't do something stupid and send our already weak farm system backwards.
Magpie - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#180953) #
The Jays tried the same with Jeff Musselman in 87/88 with 68 games and 89 IP in 87 then 15 starts in 88 (124 ERA+). He must've really annoyed someone though as he got just 3 more ML starts and 50 relief appearances after that (just shy of 70 IP). No idea if he was in the minors for part of 88 offhand or if it was injury related ala Janssen.

Musselman missed the first three months of 1988 with an injury - can't remember what - and went straight into the rotation when he returned. He started 1989 in the rotation, but early on went into rehab for a drinking problem. He was never any good after that. Go figure. Key also missed more than two months of 1988 with what I seem to remember as a shoulder problem.
jeff mcl - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#180954) #
Speaking of shoulder injuries, what was Purcey's problem?  If memory serves me correctly, he had shoulder surgery of some kind as well.

He had a stress fracture and cysts in his throwing arm; this Post article is a good update on where he's at now.  Also of note is his recent ADD diagnosis, which has him now taking meds that might well help him with his focus.
Ron - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#180955) #
Tough break for Janssen. Once he returns, I imagine the Jays will use him as a reliever instead of a starter. A decision that could potential cost Janssen millions of dollars through the length of his career. But with Ryan and League returning, the Jays have the depth in the bullpen to cover his injury. After the starting 5, the Jays are awfully thin in the starting pitching department. We all know you need at least 7 starters to get through a season and I'm already nervous at the thought of Chacin and Banks potentially making 5+ starts for the Jays this season. And yes I'm well aware David Purcey is still in the Jays system. Let's see if he can put away AA hitters before the Jays find out if he can get Major League hitters out.

I love the idea of going after Rich Harden but I imagine the price would be Travis Snider.


rtcaino - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#180956) #
This is where I share my joke about having surgery on a torn labrum in my left arm, and now I can throw smoke.

And the punch line is that I am not even a pitcher, and I'm right handed!

The_Game - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#180957) #

Brian Wolfe probably deserves to make it, but the Jays seem to lean towards veterans generally in position battles, and I doubt Benitez will be any different.

JohnnyMac - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#180959) #
the Jays seem to lean towards veterans generally in position battles, and I doubt Benitez will be any different.

Good point, but I just doubt that Benitez will be healthy enough to break camp. We should see him in due time though.

My guess: Ryan, Accardo, Downs, League, Frasor, Wolfe, Tallet .   I would have liked to see them take both Reed and Stew, leaving a 6 man pen, but that seems unlikely now.

All of that said, I do like the Benitez signing. JP's broken record line "you can never have enough pitching" is annoying, but true.
seeyou - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#180961) #
Devastating news.  I'm a big fan of Casey's style and skills, and think that the Jays are significantly worse for not having his services in 2008.   That being said, I think Litsch will do fine as a #5 starter.  Even taking into consideration a likely regression, I'm much more confident starting the year with Litsch in the starting rotation than I was with Okha, Towers or Chacin starting the year in the rotation last year.

A little off-topi
c, but some good baseball news to off-set the bad: looks like Canada's baseball team will qualify for the Beijing Olympics this summer.  If I can watch Canadian Olympic ball and the Jays in a pennant race, August/September will be a very good month for baseball. 

 
Glevin - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#180962) #

 "BJ Ryan (I don't anticipate any setbacks, he'll be there on March 31),"

I am not particularly high on Ryan this year. The usual recovery to form of pitchers from Tommy John surgery is two years. Ryan isn't even at year one now. (http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/baseball/flb/story?page=MLB30qtor ) I think expectations that he will go back to where he was two years ago are misplaced.  As for Litsch, count me as a non-believer. 111 IP, 50 K, 36 BB is not at all good. Janssen is a definite loss. Not something irreplacable by any means, but not by Litsch IMO.

 

Ryan Day - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#180963) #
I can't say I'm especially high on Litsch as the #5 starter, because it seemed that Boston and New York had their way with him last year.

I don't know if that's a very good criteria. If a pitcher could handle New York and Boston, he'd probably be a lot better than a fifth starter.
scottt - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#180964) #
It's bad news, but it's terrible only if both BJ Ryan and League don't return to form.

Chacin seems to have lost a lot of velocity. Hopefully, that comes back with time.

I see Tallet as a decent starting option. He's a leftie, but he doesn't have a huge split.
Parish might be able to take his spot in the bullpen.

ChicagoJaysFan - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 06:53 PM EDT (#180965) #
The best example of success after labrum surgery is Chris Carpenter who was acrtually better after the surgery than before.

Coincidentally, Carpenter is Janssen's 8th most similar pitcher through age 25 according to baseball reference.
The_Game - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 08:00 PM EDT (#180966) #

"I am not particularly high on Ryan this year. The usual recovery to form of pitchers from Tommy John surgery is two years. Ryan isn't even at year one now. (http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/baseball/flb/story?page=MLB30qtor ) I think expectations that he will go back to where he was two years ago are misplaced.  As for Litsch, count me as a non-believer. 111 IP, 50 K, 36 BB is not at all good. Janssen is a definite loss. Not something irreplacable by any means, but not by Litsch IMO."

I said BJ Ryan wouldn't experience any setbacks by March 31. He will be part of the Opening Day Roster. What I didn't say was that he would be vintage BJ.

And as for Litsch, his minor league numbers suggest that he's a better pitcher than what he showed at the major league level. He'll be fine as a #5 starter for this team, there is no problem there.

ayjackson - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 08:41 PM EDT (#180968) #

And as for Litsch, his minor league numbers suggest that he's a better pitcher than what he showed at the major league level. He'll be fine as a #5 starter for this team, there is no problem there.

Further to that, in 310.2 career minor league innings, Jesse struck out 7.48 per 9.  That may be a better indicator than his MLB debut of at least a modest ability to miss bats at the major league level.  He's young and has a lot of movement on his pitches.  If he sharpens that movement a bit as he matures, I think he'll be fine.

Wolfe pitched 2 innings today.  Does he have an option left?  I could see him being stretched out at AAA to see if he can be an effective starter.  People also seem to be forgetting about our Rule 5 acquisition in the bullpen equation.  Randy Wells has been effective so far this spring and has to be offered back to his original team if he doesn't make the opening day roster.  If Ryan goes north with the club, the only way Wells does is if one of Frasor, Wolfe or Tallet is sent to Syracuse.  Wolfe being sent down to become a starter (again) is a viable solution.  Packaging a reliever with a left fielder is another.

greenfrog - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 09:18 PM EDT (#180969) #
BA's blog reports on a recent study that looked at 44 baseball players to gauge the odds of recovering from elbow and shoulder injuries.

The bottom line? "Only 45 percent of the players 'were able to return to the game at the same or higher level after shoulder or elbow surgery.' Of the 44 players studied, 35 were pitchers. One noteworthy finding that is consistent with previous research was that players returning from shoulder surgery were less likely to return at the same or higher playing level than those who had elbow surgery."

Nothing earth-shattering, but still a sobering reminder that Janssen faces an uphill climb.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/
SheldonL - Wednesday, March 12 2008 @ 10:58 PM EDT (#180970) #
I think everyone's overreacting on Janssen's being out for the year. Yes, we lost a solid setup guy but everyone must be reminded that he was and still is a work in progress as a starter. Yes, he had an awesome 7 game or so stretch in his rookie season but he also had alot of hiccups along the way. Yes, his groundball tendencies portend to a some potential for a quality starter... but we've already got a pretty solid number 5 pitcher already in young Jesse Litsch.

He's got solid groundball tendencies and he's far more accomplished than Joba Chamberlain, Philip Hughes and Clay Buccholz combined thus far!
I'm not saying he's a perennial Cy Young contender but I think he's a solid pitcher. At 22, he pitched 12 quality starts out of 20. That's quite noteworthy.
Now, in 11 of those 12 quality starts, he gave up 2ER or less.

He burst on the scene with a phenomenal outing and followed it up with 3 horrendous efforts (12ER in 9 IP). But he went back down to the minors and came back with 16 really good starts.
In fact, if you delete those 3 starts, he pitched 102 IP with a 3.08 ERA and a 1.26 WHIP.

I think our bullpen will survive too. We've got B.J Ryan and even if he's not at full strength, the closer's role is the easiest job in baseball(you come in with the lead and if you're a capable major leaguer, you can get the 3 outs!).
Then we've got a solid bridge to the closer in Accardo and Downs. Frasor is a solid pitcher who has been a solid setup guy in the past despite the flak he receives on this site. Tallet and Wolfe have done very well this past season.

That leaves a spot for League who has got his velocity back up to 96-97mph.
I like that bullpen right there.

We're still a force to be reckoned with in the AL East!
HollywoodHartman - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 01:55 AM EDT (#180972) #
I don't think this injury that is back breaking. But the next injury in the rotation or pen will hurt. Now if AJ's got a sore arm, Litsch can't step in.
dogbus - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 07:30 AM EDT (#180973) #
J.P's reaction to different possibilities as a fifth starter...  Take from Thursday's Toronto Star

Non-roster left-hander John Parrish might have fit the bill – he broke in as a starter with the Orioles – but Ricciardi said he is going too well out of the bullpen right now. "We're not that smart," he said with a laugh. "All of a sudden we make him a starter. ... We could screw the whole thing up."

Ricciardi never blinked when a list of available free agents was rhymed off to him:

Kyle Lohse?

"Can't afford him."

Roger Clemens?

"Yeah, that's the guy we're looking at, him and (Barry) Bonds. They'll solve a lot of problems, right?"

Rodrigo Lopez?

Ricciardi, at least gave pause there.

"There's a lot of guys out there, but we're so far into camp now, it's hard to say one of those guys is going to come in and just take a job from someone. I like to have a little bit of faith in the guys we're seeing."

Glevin - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 07:54 AM EDT (#180975) #

"He burst on the scene with a phenomenal outing and followed it up with 3 horrendous efforts (12ER in 9 IP). But he went back down to the minors and came back with 16 really good starts.
In fact, if you delete those 3 starts, he pitched 102 IP with a 3.08 ERA and a 1.26 WHIP."

You can't take out 15% of someone's starts and say "without those..."  I will not believe in Litsch as a major league starting pitcher until I see him missing bats.

Gerry - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 08:45 AM EDT (#180976) #
Jeff Blair adds some more details in todays Globe.  Janssen saw Dr. Yocum about his shoulder soreness last September so this injury was not a huge surprise.  JP describes the tear as "small", I am not sure how that impacts Janssen's chances to make a full recovery.
John Northey - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#180977) #
The Star article with JP gives me shivers. In a bad way.

Can't afford Lohse? Uh, yes you can. The Jays have a potential budget of over $100 million and it could easily be over $125 million while still providing Rogers with a nice profit unless someone is cooking the books (I've shown this many times). Not that I'd want to as Lohse isn't as impressive to me as Litsch could be.

Clemens & Bonds - obviously JP has no interest in anyone associated with steroids/HGH. Two of the best ever, both of whom would instantly improve the Jays and he has zero interest. You can argue they would cost more than they are worth at this point in dollars but both would be major assets from a won-lost point of view.

Rodrigo Lopez - 32 years old, 5 times over 100 IP (just 79 last year) in the past 6 years, has been in the majors for 7. Lifetime ERA+ of 93, but it has gone 49-120-77-128-88-77-108. This guy would be below the big 4 we currently have, below Litsch, and maybe rated below Chacin as well. He had a couple of great years but his pitch ratios show him as very, very stable thus it was more dumb luck than anything else. Not someone I'd give more than a AAA contract to.

Note that he mentions Kane Davis as someone he is stretching out. Feels good to have called that one a day in advance :) Wolfe being stretched out suggests Wolfe will become the #6 guy ahead of Chacin but behind Litsch. Purcey being mentioned suggests a mid-season callup is a strong possibility for him.
R Billie - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#180978) #

There is no such thing as a "small" labrum tear for a pitcher.  Maybe a hitter can come back easier with reduced strength in the shoulder but hardly any pitchers can.  This is as bad a news for Janssen as it was for Chacin.  What's interesting is that Casey seemed to be fairly effective this spring.  A line of 5 innings, 4 h, 2 r, 1 hr, 0 bb, 6 k.

The usage on a lot of Jays relievers, particularly Downs and Janssen and Accardo in the second half was quite heavy, especially in terms of back-to-back appearances.  Janssen already had a fairly max-effort delivery (one that injured his back as a starter in '06) and I guess a full season of throwing complete effort out of the pen in that drop and drive fashion had an effect.

As the wear and tear was originally diagnosed last season, it probably carried over into Janssen's off-season and spring training until it finally gave way.

R Billie - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 10:51 AM EDT (#180979) #

Chris Carpenter did not have labrum surgery that I know of...his was rotator cuff surgery.  Very different.  Labrum is actually the fibre that holds the muscles and bones together and help them work together.  It is not a group of muscles like the rotator cuff which can be strengthened and rebuilt.

Doctors can repair labrums to a certain degree with today's techniques but the odds of the pitcher getting back the full strength in that shoulder are very low based on results observed thus far.  I think it will take a technique as revolutionary as Tommy John surgery to solve this problem and it is far more complicated than replacing a ligament.

The_Game - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#180980) #

JP is being close-minded...having Bonds would in fact solve a lot of problems, and might even get us in the playoffs. But I see we're not prepared to take a risk.

R Billie - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 11:03 AM EDT (#180981) #

The only thing with Bonds is where does he play?  He can't play the outfield anymore, at least not everyday.  You're not going to displace Thomas/Stairs from DH.

You'd love to have his bat in the lineup but there's a whole entire circus that would come along with that kind of signing.  For the players, the front office, even the fans.  It's hard enough to run a MLB team without being called to task at every game for employing a convicted juicer...as opposed to all those that have gone unprosecuted thus far.

It's easy for us to say from the comfort of our home or office chairs that we should take the heat and the risk associated with signing a Clemens or Bonds.  I suspect we'd all have a different view if we were trying to lead a team.

On the other hand, the Janssen injury may make an outfield for pitching trade more likely.

Maldoff - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 11:14 AM EDT (#180982) #
I have a sneaking suspision that Adam Lind will be on his way out of town soon (and not to Syracuse). And, for some reason, I see a Dave Bush-type coming back the other way. Maybe even Mike Pelfrey from the Mets.
ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#180983) #
Clemens & Bonds - obviously JP has no interest in anyone associated with steroids/HGH. Two of the best ever, both of whom would instantly improve the Jays and he has zero interest. You can argue they would cost more than they are worth at this point in dollars but both would be major assets from a won-lost point of view.

Would Clemens really instantly improve the Jays?  He's 45 and will turn 46 towards the end of the season and really seemed to hit a wall last year - having 6 BF / K versus 4.5 the year before and closer to 3 in the years he was dominant.  His K / BB was at 2.2 last year while it's been around 3.5 in years prior.  Furthermore, he's not even pitching 6 innings a start anymore.

Given his age, I'd expect an even greater drop-off this year and Roger would hurt a team more than help it.

He had a great career, but to me Roger looks like he's done. And this is ignoring the fact that he probably would never sign with Toronto - he seems to want to be in Houston, New York, or retired.
Cracka - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#180984) #

Bonds or Clemens?   Are we out of our minds???    I can't believe that people are suggesting that these are real possibilities!

For starters, there's the $15-$20 million in salary that they would command.     But an even bigger concern is that there's a very real possibility of future jail time for both of them.   Bonds was indicted by a federal Grand Jury in November.   Clemens is being investigated by the Justice Dept. and FBI for lying to Congress.... the scrutiny is only going to get worse for both of them as the season goes on.    No team wants or needs this type of distraction during the season, and certainly not the risk-adverse Jays.  

timpinder - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 12:00 PM EDT (#180986) #

Maldoff,

I agree, but I still think Blanton will be the target.  He won't demand as much as Haren since he's more of a #3 starter, he has three years before free agency, Beane and Ricciardi have a good relationship, and I bet a package of Lind, Thigpen, and an arm like Ricky Romero could get it done.  I like Lind and would hate to see him go, but with Snider coming up as soon as next year, DH covered until 2010 and 1B covered until 2011, Lind is expendable and has some value.

timpinder - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 12:04 PM EDT (#180987) #
Well, it might take a little more than that, but I still think it's do-able.
The_Game - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 12:06 PM EDT (#180988) #

The bottomline is...putting Barry Bonds in LF would likely give the Jays a very good chance at making the playoffs, and possibly doing more than that. All it would cost is money, something that is not a concern for Ted Rogers and his organization. And JP's already faced a ton of criticism in this city. Another non-playoff season or two, and he might be out of a job anyway. So I'm disappointed that he wouldn't even give such a promising idea a shot, and disappointed that one of the best hitters in baseball is out there for the taking, and the Jays aren't interested. As for possible jail time, well in my opinion that's unlikely in the first place, and even if it does happen, it would come after this season (and we'd only being giving a 1 year contract). It's not a valid reason for not making a deal like this one.

Pistol - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#180989) #
The only thing with Bonds is where does he play?

You wouldn't be signing Bonds expecting some combination of 145 full games.  80 in the OF, 20 at DH and pinch hit when available.

And it's not like Frank Thomas is especially durable.
ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 12:17 PM EDT (#180990) #
As for possible jail time, well in my opinion that's unlikely in the first place, and even if it does happen, it would come after this season (and we'd only being giving a 1 year contract). It's not a valid reason for not making a deal like this one.

I think it goes well beyond possible jail time.  Barry is indicted on perjury and obstruction of justice charges.  I don't know enough about immigration law in Canada - but I'm rather certain that Barry is not allowed to leave the US.  Similarly, he may not even be legally allowed to be employed by the Blue Jays given his current circumstances.
John Northey - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#180991) #
CJF: good point on Clemens. I went by gut feel on that one at first but lets look closer (not that he'd sign here at this point one would suspect).

ERA+ in 2007: 107 - only 4 times he has been lower than that, his rookie season, 1993, 1999, and 2002. The lowest rebound was 112. His 107 would put him 6th on the Jays starter depth chart based on 2007 stats only (Marcum was at 108, McGowan 109, Litsch 117, AJ 119, Halladay 120). His 112 as a rebound would be about what we are hoping for from all but Litsch & Marcum this year (I'll be happy with a 100-110 range from them).

K-BB ratio: Clemens was at 2.19 in '07 which is good but not for him as he often has been at 3 and he only beats out Litsch for this ratio.
Litsch: 1.39
Marcum: 2.49

HR/9: Clemens was at 0.82 last season, which is better than the bottom two in the rotation by a fair amount.
Litsch: 1.14
Marcum: 1.53

IP/Start: Clemens was at 5.76 per start. Better than the bottom two, but Clemens is going down while Litsch and Marcum are going up based on age.
Litsch: 5.55
Marcum: 5.71

As ChicagoJaysFan said, Clemens is entering his age 45 season and odds of a rebound now are low. His cost would be around $10-15 million minimum (was over $20 million for a partial season last year iirc) and he'd much prefer going to Houston or Texas or NY or Boston.

While Clemens would be better than some options for the #5 hole I'd not touch him unless the Jays are in contention mid-season and have a major hole in the rotation somewhere while the pen is going gangbusters. Even then I'd hesitate as the $/win just wouldn't make sense.
The_Game - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#180992) #

"I think it goes well beyond possible jail time.  Barry is indicted on perjury and obstruction of justice charges.  I don't know enough about immigration law in Canada - but I'm rather certain that Barry is not allowed to leave the US.  Similarly, he may not even be legally allowed to be employed by the Blue Jays given his current circumstances."

How are you "rather certain" he's not even allowed to leave the US? And what are you basing your legal knowledge on here?

greenfrog - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 12:45 PM EDT (#180993) #
Lind is a potentially useful trading chip, but I would rather the Jays sit tight for now. Especially if the alternative is to move him for a mediocre 4th or 5th starter (selling low, effectively). Better to let Lind develop or exchange him in a multi-player deal for some real talent.
Timbuck2 - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#180994) #
Unfortunately with today's market trading Lind for an OK 4th or 5th starter isn't selling low at all.  That's fair market value.
MatO - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#180995) #

Chris Carpenter did not have labrum surgery that I know of...his was rotator cuff surgery

No he had labrum surgery.  I checked before I posted.     http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2002/09/02/carpenter020902.html

I don't know why everyone is so concerned about the 5th starter.  Past studies have shown that on average a 5th starter is lucky to have an ERA under 5.  I think Litsch is more than capable of providing that.

 

Dave Till - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#180996) #
Sorry to hear about Janssen. I'm wondering whether his drop-and-drive motion was a factor - specifically, is it harder to tell whether this type of pitching motion is harder on the arm? I suspect that some pitching coaches, whether in other organizations or here, would have trouble determining whether Janssen's mechanics were sound, as they just wouldn't have seen too many pitchers like Janssen.

Labrum tears are usually very bad things. If this is only a small tear, Casey might recover. But he could very well be toast. So sad.

I'm not sure that Janssen would have been an effective fifth starter anyway. He's got a lot of potential, but I seem to recall that he was getting outs last year basically by challenging people with high fastballs. There would have been some adjustments to make, and I think Litsch was ahead of him anyway. And, when Ryan is ready to go, Accardo can take over Janssen's role (or vice versa), so it's not a calamitous loss.

Still, getting another starter, or another reliever, never hurts. It's a truism, but it's true: you can never, never, never have too much pitching.

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 01:30 PM EDT (#180999) #
How are you "rather certain" he's not even allowed to leave the US? And what are you basing your legal knowledge on here?

Rather certain reads more confident than I meant it to be.  But my experience is based on having approximately 15 years of working visas (TN, H1-B, F-1, and J-1) in the US and working with immigration / legal departments in various companies.  Also, I've known a few friends that were released on much smaller bond amounts ($15 or 20k - it was for a stupid mix-up at a Bills game that eventually got dismissed) and coming into the US from Canada was exceedingly difficult for them.  I've also worked with companies in setting up foreign subsidiaries (India) as we dealt with some of these issues (admittedly, that was pre-dot com bust).

As I meant to imply, but clearly didn't, all my experience has been going South across the border, not North, but I know how difficult it is in the US to get Visas and have had several discussions (out of curiosity, fortunately) with various legal people on the difficulties associated with it if criminal charges are ever associated with my name.
ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 01:51 PM EDT (#181002) #
John Northey - I hadn't realized how poor Litsch's performance was last year until you pointed it out indirectly in those summaries.  I'm still not a big fan of bringing Clemens back - as you say, largely for cost reasons - but by glancing at his #'s, I thought he would have been hard pressed to help our team last year.  With what you provided, that's not the case (although with any regression in his numbers and an improvement in Litsch or Marcum, it would be this year).
Jdog - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#181003) #

As a former canadian immigration officer I can pretty much assure you that Bonds would have little trouble going back and forth. As far as I know Bonds has no criminal convictions(its only convictions(not charges) which make a foreign national(US citizen) unable to enter canada. If an officer is of the opinion that someone with pending charges is running from the law they can also bar them entry into canada. However half of the NBA / CFL players have actual convictions and are almost always allowed to come and work in canada. They just have to buy a special permit allowing them to overcome the convictions.

And as for entering the USA, Bonds is a US citizen so he is not going to have to worry about that. I am no expert on US legislation but the only way it is an issue is if somewhere in the court proceedings or charges he was banned from exiting the country...but usually those types of limitations are only in place as part of an actual sentence to go along with a conviction...which he does not have as of yet.

SheldonL - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 01:56 PM EDT (#181004) #

"You can't take out 15% of someone's starts and say "without those..."  I will not believe in Litsch as a major league starting pitcher until I see him missing bats."

Glevin, look at any pitcher in history, you'll find that they struggled in their first handful of starts. My point is that Litsch has the mental toughness and the ability to succeed and he has already demonstrated both!

He got rocked in 3 of his first 4 starts (like every pitcher in history, even the great Halladay and Santana), but he came back to post a 3.20 ERA in his 16 starts since his second call-up! that alone earns him the 5th spot in the rotation!

As for his low K-rate, Halladay and Burnett had low K-rates in their first two seasons. A K-rate at age 22 isn't the final product! Besides, groundball pitchers like Wang and Carmona(like Moyer, Maddux and Kenny Rogers before them) have shown that pitching to contact is just as good as high K rates.

As for the Bonds idea, anyone who says that adding him doesn't make us instantly World Series contenders is kidding herself! There's no way Bonds and Stairs are superior options.

There's are issues no doubt(immigration issues, steroid scandal, high salary...) but these are issues JP and the boys can deal with or attempt to deal with.

How would the at-bats be distributed? Assuming each hitter ideally gets around 150 AB's vs lefties and 400 vs righties, the breakdown is as follows:

DH Thomas gets all 150 vs LHP and 200 vs the lesser RHP's=350.
Reed Johnson gets all 150 vs LHP only.
Stairs gets 200 vs the lesser RHP's as a LF.

That leaves 200 AB's for each the DH spot and the LF spot vs righties. These go to Bonds. Further, these would be against superior righty pitchers to allow for maximal effect for the rest of the lineup(ie. Bonds' OBP).

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 02:00 PM EDT (#181005) #
Jdog - I stand corrected.
Flex - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#181014) #
That's a nice find on Carpenter, MatO. It should give Janssen some comfort and I hope they relate that example to him. They're different pitchers, obviously, but now the model example of what you can do after labrum surgery is Chris Carpenter: You can win a Cy Young.

It also reminds us again why Ricciardi thought it a good decision to let Carpenter go. Given history to that point, it was highly likely Carpenter was never going to be the pitcher he was.
MatO - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#181016) #

It also reminds us again why Ricciardi thought it a good decision to let Carpenter go. Given history to that point, it was highly likely Carpenter was never going to be the pitcher he was.

That and the fact that Carpenter would have made $2M+ to not pitch for the Jays in 2003 (can't cut salary more than 20% in arbitration) after which he would have been a FA anyway.  Since the Jays were dumping payroll this was a no brainer.

R Billie - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#181019) #

Thanks for that article.  I remember reading something distinctly different somewhere else where it was the rotator cuff involved and not the labrum.  But I guess if Carpenter himself said it that puts that to rest.

Let's see if another trade is in the works.

TamRa - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#181021) #

"He burst on the scene with a phenomenal outing and followed it up with 3 horrendous efforts (12ER in 9 IP). But he went back down to the minors and came back with 16 really good starts.
In fact, if you delete those 3 starts, he pitched 102 IP with a 3.08 ERA and a 1.26 WHIP."

You can't take out 15% of someone's starts and say "without those..."  I will not believe in Litsch as a major league starting pitcher until I see him missing bats.

Oh of course you can. It's called looking for trends. Or don't you think that McGowan is better than his final ERA in 2007 would indicate?

I'm not saying I think Litsch is da bomb either - but it's because of his secondaries, not because of the three bad games....a stretch of 16 good starts in a row (if that's what it was) means something.


vw_fan17 - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#181022) #
The Star article with JP gives me shivers. In a bad way.

Can't afford Lohse? Uh, yes you can. The Jays have a potential budget of over $100 million and it could easily be over $125 million while still providing Rogers with a nice profit unless someone is cooking the books (I've shown this many times). Not that I'd want to as Lohse isn't as impressive to me as Litsch could be.


John, yes, you've shown it many times to us here at BB (and I believe you!), but, most likely, it has not propagated to Mr. Lohse's close circle of friends and/or agent(s). On the other hand, were JP to be quoted as "Yes, we're dead set on signing Kyle Lohse - we've got $20M to play with", guess what Mr. Lohse's asking price would be?

Now, I'm not saying the Jays ARE interested, but.. You don't get value for your money by telling average players "we've got tons of cash and we want to sign you" (also see "The misadventures of JFJr and the Toronto Maple Leafs, circa 2006-2008").

If the Jays actually have some interest in Mr. Lohse, I would HATE for them to broadcast it in this way. I mean, what's the likely response by Lohse's agent (and/or his person) to JP's statement, as quoted? "Well, maybe I can convince them they can afford me." or "maybe I should drop my asking price a little - Toronto's looking like a good team with great defense!". OTOH, if JP says "Well, yes, we've definitely got our eye on Lohse - we think he can really help us.", what's the first statement like to be? "We're available for $8M (give or take)"..

So, in this case, I don't think you can put too much weight on JP's statements..

VW
vw_fan17 - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#181023) #
If the Jays actually have some interest in Mr. Lohse, I would HATE for them to broadcast it in this way.

Or, they just didn't want to get into a bidding war with the Cards..

Lohse signs with Cardinals (subject to physical)

VW
John Northey - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 08:48 PM EDT (#181025) #
Ouch. $4.25 plus up to another 1/2 million if he pitches a lot. For a guy who is just a bit above replacement level and desperate (anyone not signed now is desperate).

Phew, one more potential bad signing not available. :)
Flex - Thursday, March 13 2008 @ 08:49 PM EDT (#181026) #
"If it were a perfect world, we wouldn't have had to go down this path."

Now there's a ringing endorsement from your new boss.
ChicagoJaysFan - Friday, March 14 2008 @ 12:22 AM EDT (#181028) #
Or, they just didn't want to get into a bidding war with the Cards..

Speaking of pitchers with labrum problems ... although it sounds like Clement went all out and had a full-service repair done, not just fixing a torn labrum.
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