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Do you know what today is? Besides two days before the always highly-anticipated Pi Approximation Day (22/7)? Well, the trade deadline is coming up soon, but most of the Jays' trade assets are still with the team. Therefore, I declare today Wild Trade Speculation Day!!!!

Our discussion will be led, of course, by the extravagantly useful MLB Trade Rumors (sic). They've got a special feature up right now entitled "The 2010 Trade Market", although that just lists players who are available, not really a useful page for identifying potential trade partners. Here's the Blue Jays-specific feed.

With Alex Gonzalez gone, it looks like the main pieces the Jays will have to offer are Downs, Frasor, Gregg, Buck and Overbay. Bautista and Marcum have also been brought up in rumours at MLBTR, but are less likely to be dealt.

These teams are reasonably in a race and could be buying:
AL: Yankees, Red Sox, Rays, White Sox, Tigers, Twins, Rangers, Angels
NL: Braves, Mets, Phillies, Cardinals, Reds, Padres, Giants, Rockies, Dodgers

Okay, the next step is to identify which teams need which piece. It's late, so I'm going to try to do this mostly off the top of my head, so feel free to weigh in if your identified trade partners are different:

1B: The two teams most in need of a first baseman are the two AL West contenders, Texas and LA. After trading Justin Smoak, the Rangers are using Chris Davis at first, and he's been awful. The Angels have Mike Napoli and Jeff Mathis playing first and catching. The Twins could come into play; Justin Morneau is expected back soon, but the after-effects of his concussion have been unpredictable and he could be shut down for longer. None of the NL teams seem to have a need at first base.

C: There figure to be quite a few suitors for John Buck, if teams believe in what he's done so far this year.

I'm not sure I've seen the Yankees linked to catcher rumours, but Francisco Cervelli certainly hasn't been putting up Buck-like numbers. We all know about the Red Sox' catching problems, what with Victor Martinez and Jason Varitek out. However, Martinez may return soon. Gerald Laird has been absolutely atrocious for the Tigers this year, and back-up Alex Avila hasn't been great either. The Rangers have been running Matt Treanor out on a regular basis. Rod Barajas has been bad for the Mets, but his 11 homers might make Omar Minaya look the other way.

RP: The Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers have been specifically linked to the Jays' relievers on MLBTR in recent days. In order to maintain sanity, I'm not going to examine every member of the other potential buyers' bullpens, but I will note some other teams whose bullpens haven't fared too well: the Phillies (16th by ERA), Reds (20th) and Angels (25th).

Okay, so who looks like a good trade partner after all this parsing of information? Unfortunately, it seems like the best matches come with baggage: the Yanks and Red Sox, who both could use a reliever or two and a catcher, are, obviously, in the AL East. However, I wouldn't put it past AA to make an intra-divisional deal - especially since all of the guys mentioned are free-agents-to-be. The Rangers look like a good partner too, but are limited financially and have already taken on money by acquiring Cliff Lee.

The best trade partner might be the LA teams. The Angels could use Overbay and at least one reliever. Of the players AA can offer, the Dodgers really only need relievers, but Ned Colletti has given up some pretty nice pieces for middling deadline-upgrades over the last few years. So, Bauxites, who do you want from the Angels or Dodgers? Or from any of these other teams? Try to be realistic. No, wait what am I talking about? This is Wild Trade Speculation Day! Be as creative and ridiculous as you want. Think the Jays could pry Evan Longoria for Jason Frasor? Maybe Dan Gilbert for Paul Beeston? Want to propose a 30-team trade? Go ahead! It's WILD TRADE SPECULATION DAY.
TDIB 20 July 2010: Wild Trade Speculation Day | 82 comments | Create New Account
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brent - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 06:18 AM EDT (#218757) #

I found this thread very interesting. It moves past the initial reactions and the Braves' fans have a good debate mostly about AG vs. Escobar and who will be better for the rest of the season. I liked that some commented that they were disappointed that they didn't let Escobar regain trade value before dealing him.

China fan - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 08:55 AM EDT (#218762) #

I think the Jays should keep Scott Downs for 2011, or at least consider keeping him.  He's been one of the most reliable pitchers in the bullpen.  Yes, it could cost $3-million or more, but the Jays can afford it.  When you consider that Frasor and Gregg will likely be gone in 2011, and Tallet has been mediocre, the Jays need to keep a couple of good veterans (Camp and Downs) to help stabilize the younger inexperienced relievers -- who could include a number of unproven arms such as Purcey, Roenicke, Magnusson, Lewis etc.   If the Jays trade Downs and Gregg and Frasor, they'll probably need to recruit a free-agent reliever in the off-season anyway, probably for $2-million to $3-million.  (The minor-league relievers in the Jays system are just not good enough or numerous enough to stock the entire Jays bullpen in 2011 if the Jays get rid of three veteran relievers.)  The trading of Downs would not ultimately save any money if they have to replace him with a free agent, so why do it?

Two things, in my mind, would make Downs expendable:  if the Jays get an offer that they just can't refuse; or if they decide to stock the bullpen with a batch of converted starters such as Zep, Richmond, Mills etc.   But both of those possibilities are doubtful.  It would be a mistake to go with a raw bullpen of entirely unproven arms in 2011.  Keep a couple of the best veterans, I say.

whiterasta80 - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 09:22 AM EDT (#218764) #

I like the rumour that we were asking for Iglesias in exchange for Downs.  I have so much confidence in our scouts and our ability to spend on draft picks that we shouldn't be letting a Type A free agent go for anything less.

I agree that Downs is the guy that we should hold out for assets on.  A worst case scenario is another year of excellent pitching, and another crack at this next deadline.  Frasor and Gregg on the other hand should be gone to the first team that offers a B prospect or takes EE off of our hands.

I can't imagine Buck not moving, he's always had the ability to hit for power and there's plenty of teams that could use that out of their catcher (DET?). Is Daniel Fields too much to ask for?  

Not interested in dealing Bautista, I want him locked up and starting at 3rd next season.

If anyone is offering anything for Lyle Overbay I'm willing to take that too.  Having Wallace and Lind split time between DH and 1B to close out the season seems like a plan to me. Plus the salary relief might sign another Dickie Thon next year.

Don't know if there's anyone else on the roster I see a major offer being made on.  Fred Lewis might get some calls, but I like our top 2 right now alot. If we get a high OBP, top of the order type back in a deal I'm open to moving him.

Mike Green - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 09:34 AM EDT (#218765) #
As I said in the poll, the Escobar trade had more characteristics of a buyer's trade than a seller's trade.  I wonder if the target acquisition(s) are more likely to be a prospect or a player who might be able to contribute in 2011.
85bluejay - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#218766) #

I'm from the everyone is available for the right price school & have such confidence in AA & his team that

I'm expecting some exciting things to happen - however, those type B FA have a valuable !st. supp pick

attached to them. I would love for us to get 1 of the Braves bevy of outstanding young pitching - one thing

that's lacking in the Jays system is a True #1 type starter.

Also, deals with Texas & the dodgers, where the Jays pick up salary & get back better prospects.

A couple of prospect for prospect trades I'm interested in :

JP arencibia & brad mills for Mike Moustakas ( KC doesn't have a near ready catching prospect & can

move gordon back to 3rd. - the Jays would extend Buck for 2 yrs. & wait on Arnaud/Jerolman etc.)

Doug Drabeck or Zach Stewart for Brett Lawrie  - Lawrie isn't working out at 2nd and Mil. has 3rd & LF covered

and they need pitching) These are likely not July 31st type deals  

Olerud363 - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 10:19 AM EDT (#218771) #

We don't have a guy in the system with mind-blowing stats.  But look at Romero, Halladay, Escobar, Carpenter, even Billy Koch.  Over the years none of the guys the Jays have developed with number 1 stuff have dominated the minors. 

If I mixed in Kyle Drabek's line with Roy Halladay's or Carpenter's no one would be able to tell which was which.  If I showed you Pat Hentgen's and Drabek's you wouldn't be able to tell which was which (other then the fact Hentgen got really bombed in Syracuse instead of being mediocre).  In 1991 Hentgen was bombed in Syracuse, 2 years later winning 19 for the World Champions.

So I would not want Drabek included in any deal unless he's considered an A+ prospect (Drabek for Moustakas).  I've heard the "not a true #1" starter from other sources.  But you always heard the same thing about everyone else in the Jay's system that became a number one starter. 

John Northey - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#218773) #
Well, first off who has a contract running out in 2010 or 2011? In order of salary for 2010...

1) Lyle Overbay: $7 mil, 2010 - hard to trade unless the Jays eat his salary, probably a defense first team would want him

2) Encarnacion: $4.75 mil, 2011 - arbitration after this year, little value in market though as was available for free and no one took him

3) Downs: $4 mil, 2010 - free agent, tons of value as a solid reliever who happens to be a lefty and a likely type A free agent.

4) Frasor: $2.65 mil, 2010 = free agent, has issues as JP went public with 'can't handle pressure'. Needs a sabr-friendly team that views labels as not important, probably won't get great value thus better to hold and let leave as a type B free agent (work his innings to keep him no higher than a B).

5) Bautista: $2.4 mil, 2011 = arbitration after this year then free agency. Favorite of manager and having a career year while being useful towards new 'trouble child' Escobar. Would have to be blown away to trade.

6) Buck: $2 mil, 2010 - free agent after this season, having a great season - high value in trade market as teams want 2 solid catchers due to high injury risk. I'd be surprised if he isn't gone by August.

7) Tallet: $2 mil, 2011 - arb then free agent. Some value due to versatility (start/relief) but not doing well in either role really. Useful for a team that has serious issues in rotation that are temporary that also needs long men in pen - little trade value for that though unless a team is desperate.

8) McDonald: $1.5, 2011 - signed through 2011 - useful backup, little value in market though

9) Camp: $1.15, 2011 - arb then FA. High value in market as under control for 2011 and very effective 8th inning guy - Yanks could use him big time. Could a package for Joba (who is viewed as a disappointment now) be possible?

10) Molina: $800k, team option for 2011. Useful backup catcher (see Buck). Has value, will never be a type B let alone A free agent so a lower level prospect might be all it takes to make it worth trading him if Buck stays.

Note: Gregg has options through 2012 thus not listed but if someone is crazy enough to want the 'proven closer' I say take advantage. Just $2 mil this year with a $4.5 option for 2011 and $4.25 for 2012 (have to choose to take both years or just 2011 after 2010). He is cheap $ wise so I suspect he could be a part of a bigger deal.

Lots of guys there - 11 in total who could leave here as free agents after 2010 or 2011 who could have value to a contender. Only Overbay could be viewed as expensive, only Encarnacion is untradable.

I'd rank it, for odds of a trade, Buck/Molina (one or the other) - Downs - Camp - Gregg - Overbay - Tallet - Frasor - Bautista - McDonald - a few others - Encarnacion.

Should be an interesting few weeks coming up.
TheBunk - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 11:10 AM EDT (#218776) #
Frasor will likely accept arb if it's offered so his type B free agency means little to the Blue Jays, the time to get value for him is at the deadline.
bpoz - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#218780) #
I am very impressed by Camp. What is he throwing to have so much success? He does not throw hard so is it variety of pitches? He seems to get that double play grounder quite regularly.

IMO Tony Castillo had enough success to have a career (few years)in the majors and he did not throw hard. Pin point control. He seemed reliable and did a lot of setup and even closed for the Jays. I think J Carlson may be like him.
ayjackson - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#218781) #
I doubt Frasor would forego free agency for a one year $2m contract.
Gerry - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 11:44 AM EDT (#218782) #

I would like to see Downs come back too but I think it would be difficult to keep him.  I wonder if the Jays talked with him about an extension?

Downs is 34 years old and this off-season is his best chance for a long term deal to set him up for retirement.  I assume he would be looking for a 3 year deal worth around $12 million.  That might be too rich for the Jays.

Relievers, in general, are an unpredictable lot.  Downs has been very consistent but can we expect that to continue?  Downs has also been very durable, can we expect that to continue?

Assuming Downs needs a 3 yr/$12m deal to stay with the Jays I am OK with him leaving.

jerjapan - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 12:18 PM EDT (#218786) #
AA seems to be all about maximizing resources, which is all the more reason to deal Frasor and Gregg no matter what the return.  We won't be picking up Gregg's option, and I could see not offering Frasor arb, so we get nothing for these guys at the end of the year.  We could easily pay their salaries if it means we get a minor prospect in return.   

We have a number of young pitchers who need a crack at a major league job (Magnuson, Roenicke, Zep, Mills, boone, Ray), along with serviceable big leaguers in Carlson and Accardo, both who seem to be pitching effectvely enough in the hostile environment of Las Vegas and both of whom have demonstrated  success in the bigs.  Jansenn has recovered well and I'd be happy to see both he and Camp moving up the depth chart.  Time to clear some space in the pen and see what we've got, who we'll protect in the offseason, etc. 

As for keeping Downs, he's been a rock for us, but trying to contend in 2011 seems likely to interfere with the rebuilding plans.  His value is at peak.  Camp at least we still control for another year and seems to still be under the radar, so I'd be happy to keep him another year and see if he builds Downs-like value for next year's deadline. 
TheBunk - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 12:18 PM EDT (#218787) #
What exactly is Frasor going to get on the free agent market that trumps a 2.5 M guarantee? He could wait around and maybe get 1 Year/3M or 2 years 5M but that's a big risk and he could be waiting around for until January for that opportunity to present itself. He could right his value in the second half but then we start talking about ifs.
TheBunk - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#218788) #
ugh, that response was riddled with grammatical errors.

Before an opportunity presents itself*
TheBunk - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 12:25 PM EDT (#218789) #
I think the likely hood of player being dealt is in this order(from strongest chance to least likely): Buck, Frasor, Downs, Gregg, Overbay(although I think a waiver claim is more likely here if Overbay can continue to raise his batting line), Bautista, Encarnacion. I'm sure Camp can be had for the right price but I'm betting he sticks around and is the stabilizing force in the bullpen next year.
ayjackson - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#218790) #

What exactly is Frasor going to get on the free agent market that trumps a 2.5 M guarantee?

Well for one thing, it's not guaranteed.  The Jays can walk away for it prior to mid-March for a few weeks severance.  And yes, I think he could get a 2-3 three year contract for $5m that is guaranteed.

TheBunk - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#218792) #
I'm obviously speaking in an arbitration situation, I know they can let him walk. The Brandon Lyon three year deals of the world are the outliers not the norm.
TheBunk - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 12:39 PM EDT (#218793) #
Yikes, that was a straw man I used, apologies. We'll just agree to disagree.
Mike Green - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 12:46 PM EDT (#218796) #
I've long since given up trying to predict the market for middle relievers/set-up men.  Frasor, Downs, Janssen, Camp, Gregg are all decent enough pitchers, but nothing special.  You need two or three of them, but what makes for a good pen is to have one or two who are noticeably above the average quality of a reliever to handle the higher leverage situations.  None of these guys are.  Perhaps Zach Stewart or Henderson Alvarez will be the man in a few years.

On a side note, I hadn't read much about Joaquin Benoit, but if you want to talk about successful rotator cuff surgery, I guess he's your man.  He's throwing harder and the results in 30 major league inning are out there.  The K rate (13/9IP), the LD rate (5%) and the IFFB rate (17%) speak for themselves.
stevieboy22 - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 01:03 PM EDT (#218799) #

Assuming Downs needs a 3 yr/$12m deal to stay with the Jays I am OK with him leaving.

Scott Downs has been one of the top relievers in baseball over the last 4 years

I would be sort of surprised if someone didnít throw 20 mill at him.

Consistent relievers are hard to find. And I think he has been the Jays best reliever over the last 3 seasons. In what is usually considered one of the better bullpens.

That being said, sometimes we see bad relievers get big contracts and okay relievers get one year deals. Relievers with Downs track record should be worth throwing a decent contract at.

The pitching as a whole in baseball has gotten much better. So in this marketplace who knows?

Pitching might no longer be at a premium  and home run hitters might be the big catch.

Kelekin - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 01:19 PM EDT (#218802) #
In reply to an earlier post, Atlanta has always been my favourite NL East team having grown up watching TBS (and Captain Planet, come on!), but the fans are driving me insane this year.  After one month of the season they gave up all hope, booed half their players, practically tried running Troy Glaus out of town and it was just disgusting.  And here they are, in 1st place in their division. 

If anything, it's more proof that every year, everyone goes insane over the first month or two of the season.  And it's not any less ridiculous to do. 

ayjackson - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#218803) #

Why's Lyon an outlier?  Show me the norm?  Is Rodney an outlier too?  Both are making more than double what Frasor is making despite being inferior pitchers (xFIP, WAR).

If Frasor can't get more than $2m guaranteed on the market, his lawyer should be shot.  If he can't I'd gladly offer him $3-3.5m over two years to come back.  In fact, if there was any doubt, I'd give him the offer in November and let him decline Arb and work the FA market with our offer in his back pocket.

Mike Green - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 01:24 PM EDT (#218804) #
If Frasor can't get more than $2m guaranteed on the market, his lawyer should be shot

First, Shakespeare supports Barricide, then A.Y. Jackson.  Who's next? K-Os?  Prince? Katy Perry?
ayjackson - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#218806) #
Sorry, Mike.  Nothing personal.  Yet.
jerjapan - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#218808) #
Frasor, Downs, Janssen, Camp, Gregg are all decent enough pitchers, but nothing special.

Janssen was pretty special in 2007, with my only concern being his low strikeout totals.  He's 28, not giving up many baserunners or HRs this year, striking out nearly a batter an inning and seems finally recovered from injury.  He could easily be a versatile Paul Quantrill type set-up man for us given a chance.    
uglyone - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#218809) #

I'd love to move all our over-30 relievers for some decent return, and let Purcey/Janssen/Carlson/Roenicke/Mills/Litsch/Lewis/Accardo/Magnusson fight it out for the bullpen spots the rest of the year. Plenty of talent there - enough to give them a shot. If they're nowhere close to good enough, then buy a reliever or two in the offseason.

Heck, the Yanks pretty much need an entirely new bullpen after Rivera, don't they? 

Offer them up Downs/Gregg/Camp/Frasor/Tallet all in one package, and see how good a prospect we can get from them. Inquire about names like Joba and Montero, and maybe hint that a name like Wallace could be up for grabs.

Mick Doherty - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#218810) #

Talk radio in North Texas has the Rangers, if budget allows, chasing a 1B. But Overbay is NOT a good match, as TEX would want someone who can mash -- and Davis, for all his trouble at the plate, is already a better defensive 1B than Lyle.

P.S. isn't "Pi Approximation Day" actually March 14? 3.14 and all that? Looking forward to mid-morning that day in five years, when it will be!

Dave Rutt - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 02:26 PM EDT (#218812) #
March 14 is the much more well-known Pi Day - July 22 is Pi Approximation Day because 22/7 is a very close approximation of Pi that is also a simple fraction. If you want to celebrate, bake something that at least kind of resembles a pie.
Chuck - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 02:35 PM EDT (#218814) #

One imagines the wheels in Mick's mind turning.

March 14.
July 22.
Pie Traynor.
Felix Pie.

ramone - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 02:39 PM EDT (#218815) #
With Inge going to the DL in Detroit maybe it`s possible that you could package EE and Buck to Detroit, as I believe Detroit is getting the lowest offensive production in baseball from the catching position.
Anders - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#218818) #

Talk radio in North Texas has the Rangers, if budget allows, chasing a 1B. But Overbay is NOT a good match, as TEX would want someone who can mash -- and Davis, for all his trouble at the plate, is already a better defensive 1B than Lyle.

Don't think that this is the case - Lyle has had a UZR/150 of 2-3 the last couple of years and washes out around 0 for his career, while Davis' UZR/150 is about -4 for his career (roughly 150 games at first). Overbay also fared slightly better in the fan scouting report last year than Davis (3.61 to 3.51) though I am not sure how much I would make of that. There are sample size issues, but I see no obvious reason to think Lyle is the inferior defender.  

Overbay isn't worth a ton but he has been a solidly average 2.5 WAR first baseman for the last several years, and has been hitting 304/372/495 over the last two months (57 games.)

jgadfly - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 03:18 PM EDT (#218823) #
"and Davis, for all his trouble at the plate, is already a better defensive 1B than Lyle."   ...   Mick , I was going to tell you (respectfully so)  to give your 'Yankee lovin'  Texas centric' head a shake but Anders made the point far better than I ever could ... so I won't .
PeteMoss - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#218825) #
Janssen has 39 Ks in 42 innings this year... pretty decent K rate and a big jump from previous numbers.
earlweaverfan - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#218826) #
So, we need to define our objectives.  Do we trade (draft) for the best player we can get or to fill needs that the club most wants to fill?  Of course, we all want the ideal of having our cake and eating it too!

For example, I think that (assuming injury does not intervene), Marcum, Morrow, Cecil, and Romero will all continue to become stronger and stronger pitchers in the toughest of all divisions.  Rzep could, too, but I see the Jays aiming him at the bullpen, and I think that could be positive.  Drabek and possibly Stewart have every potential to outperform Litsch, about whom I am still pretty sceptical.  So, I think it is pointless to trade for another strong starter (unless the next version of Cliff Lee becomes available, and we think we are ready to compete post-season.

I would see no need to improve on Lewis in LF, Wells in CF (given his contract), Snider in RF, Bautista at 3rd, Escobar at SS.  They will all be very strong at their positions for several years.

I still expect to see Hill and Lind return to dominance as hitters and Hill is a fine 2B.  In any case, we have learned that one should trade someone when their value is highest, not far lower than it will be when they return to the mean, like those two.

I think that JPA may need more grooming to be a top catcher (rather than hitter at the catcher's position), but he is ready to do his learning in the Big Leagues, so Buck  or Molina could be traded, but the other should be kept as we do not have another candidate ready.

By contrast, Wallace seems to fall just a bit short of being major league ready, and potentially, might never be.  So a wonderful step up candidate for 1B would be really worthwhile.

This really leaves trading older relievers with a longer track record, whom we might lose to a trade or to free agency.  We will have many slots in the pen to fill.  Unlike many, I do believe in paying real coin for getting stronger, young relievers, even if their longevity and reliability can't be assumed.  On top of Camp, who seems like an emerging Downs to me, and Rzep, there is no one in the pen whose capabilities remind me of Bard, Santos or Thornton, let alone a Soria, Farnsworth; put another way, no one who looks like the likely replacement to Gregg.  It seems to me smarter to get three or four who have closer potential, and develop someone into that role, than paying big coin for a top closer, only to have them get injured (go with me on this!).

I do like the potential strength of Janssen, Carlson, Purcey, and possibly Mills, Roenicke, or Magnuson to fill 3 jobs at the bottom of the pen; I do like Camp and Rzep; but if we could trade Buck/Downs/Overbay/Encarnacion/Frasor and Gregg in any combination, possibly also giving up an upper middle prospect like Stewart, and find ourselves with a return of two of Bard/Farnsworth/Santos/Thornton or that calibre, plus one emerging 1B star, I would be ecstatic!

Am I dreaming in technicolor?

Gerry - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#218827) #
Tweets from KC say that Yunel Escobar will not play tonight.  He is day-to-day after being hit on the hand by a pitch last night.
Matthew E - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#218828) #
For example, I think that (assuming injury does not intervene), Marcum, Morrow, Cecil, and Romero will all continue to become stronger and stronger pitchers in the toughest of all divisions.

And I think that (assuming winter does not intervene), the average daily temperature will continue to become higher and higher throughout the northern hemisphere.
Alex Obal - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#218829) #
I am very impressed by Camp. What is he throwing to have so much success? He does not throw hard so is it variety of pitches? He seems to get that double play grounder quite regularly.

Dunno. I want to look into this sometime.

Camp has always been a sinker-slider guy with a good moving fastball and an excellent sweeping slider. This was true ever when he pitched for the Devil Rays, though he's added a changeup as a regular pitch for the Jays. He always had the good K%, BB% and GB%. He just got hit hard and had no luck stranding runners.

My theory: his fastball straightens out when he overthrows it, and he's stopped doing that in pressure situations. I have no evidence for this. But the numbers are consistent with it: fastball velocity down, BABIP down, strand rate way, way up. This calls for a pitch-fx investigation.
whiterasta80 - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#218830) #

I think its a little too soon to address specific needs.

I agree that 1B is the obvious place to upgrade (I have little faith in Wallace), but I don't see a good matchup amongst the teams looking to deal with us.  We already Jacked the Braves, I doubt Freddy Freeman is getting moved. NYM aren't all of a sudden going to deal Ike Davis to us, FLA will hold Morrison, and the A's ain't dealing Carter. Pretty sure Laporta, Chris Davis, Kyle Blanks and Kila Ka'aihue are staying put too. I'm just not sure who that leaves, Yonder Alonso (he makes Wallace look like Babe Ruth).  Do Detroit, BOS etc... have elite 1B prospects who are close to the bigs?  Lars Anderson is the only one to come to mind and I'm not bullish on him.

We could go all in on a Prince Fielder, Adrian Gonzalez, Adam Dunn type and try to sign them to a long-term contracts but its probably a little too early for that. Now is the time to build assets for a move like that in 2 years. 


uglyone - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#218831) #

Am I dreaming in technicolor?

If you are, you're not the only one.

I couldn't agree more with that post.

uglyone - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#218832) #

I agree that 1B is the obvious place to upgrade (I have little faith in Wallace), but I don't see a good matchup amongst the teams looking to deal with us.  We already Jacked the Braves, I doubt Freddy Freeman is getting moved. NYM aren't all of a sudden going to deal Ike Davis to us, FLA will hold Morrison, and the A's ain't dealing Carter. Pretty sure Laporta, Chris Davis, Kyle Blanks and Kila Ka'aihue are staying put too. I'm just not sure who that leaves, Yonder Alonso (he makes Wallace look like Babe Ruth).  Do Detroit, BOS etc... have elite 1B prospects who are close to the bigs?  Lars Anderson is the only one to come to mind and I'm not bullish on him.

Jesus Montero

or, conversely, turn Snider into a 1B, and look for a young OF.

Ducey - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#218833) #
Mike Green - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#218834) #
Alex, my vote with Camp is "small sample size BABIP fluctuation", i.e. 70% luck.  He's allowed 34 non-homer hits on 23 line drives, 43 fly balls and 74 ground balls.  That isn't really consistent with his career, and I am pretty sure that his BABIP will be higher at the end of the year than today's .246. His control has been great, instead of average this year, and that may be a sustainable improvement.
John Northey - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#218835) #
I think AA's going to try to look for improvements over what we already have...

IE: if he is offered a 1B who he likes more than Wallace & Overbay he'll go for it even if it is marginal. Same for any other position.

The goal is to always improve and to swing for the fences when the opportunity presents itself (the Escobar trade is one of those). Starting pitching would be hard to jump in on as I figure he'd only go for a young ace type and those are very hard to find, let alone trade for (razzen frazzen Rios almost deal).

Interesting to look at B-R and see only 2 regulars are sub-100 for OPS+ now, with both being sub-80 in Lind/Hill. Very bizarre. This includes both SS (Gonzo & Escobar), all outfielders (Lewis/Wells/Bautista & Snider & Wise) and both catchers (yes, even Molina is still over 100).

Cecil/Marcum/Romero are still 100+ for ERA+ but Morrow has dropped back to 87, Litsch is below Eveland at 63, Tallet at 65 and Rzep has too few innings to think about. Downs & Camp are over 150 for ERA+, Gregg & Janssen in the low 100's, Frasor at 91 (ugh - 4.5 BB/9 does that to you although Gregg is worse at 5.4). All others are still sub-20 IP.

Funny that the issues this year are pitching (pen and 5th starter mainly) and Lind/Hill. Who'd have thunk?
aaforpm - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#218836) #

Hereís my wild trade layout (consistent theme is trading for underperforming players with high ceilingsÖoften on playoff teams that canít currently afford to play underperforming players)

Overbay (along with cash to pay his salary for the rest of the year) plus Gregg get traded to the Angels for Brandon Wood.  It gives the Angels a 1B for the rest of the year and a set-up man for this yearís playoff run + beyond (unless they donít exercise his option(s) because they decide to take the supplemental pick instead).    Wood gives us a high ceiling player at 3B.  Jeís a much better defender than Encarnacion, as Iíve read many scouts say that heís probably good enough defensively to play short at the Major League level. He has also improved his approach at the plate and cut down his swing; he also looks way better balanced at the plate than Encarnacion.  He looks a little bit pull conscious but so was Joe Carter and that worked out fine for the Jays.  He has struggled in the pros but I think the Jays can afford to be more patient than the Angels.  I believe that Wood is out of options but is still controllable through at least 2013 (maybe 2014Ö.he has been sent to the minors for some long stints since first coming up).  The Ďout of optionsí part should make him easier to get in a trade.

Downs gets traded to the Rockies for Franklin Morales.  Rockies need a lefty reliever and Morales is having an off year.  Based on stuff alone, Morales could still turn out to be a great starter (we would use him in the bullpen this year and stretch him out next year), although the Rockies donít seem to be willing to give him a chance to prove it.   I think he should be under control till 2013Öbut Iím not sure.  

Marcum, Encarnacion (including cash to pay the rest of his salary) and Buck get traded to the Tigers for Porcello and Dan Schlereth.   I know trading Marcum hurts short terms but heís only controllable for 2 more years while Porcello would be under control till 2015.  Porcello still has very good upside but the Tigers may be willing to trade him for Marcum who is more ready to contribute now and who they would have two years to sign to an extension (a lucrative extension makes more sense for the Tigers than the Jays because they should have a ton of money freeing up after this year, and the year after when Ordonez leaves).   I think that trading Marcum makes sense since the Jays probably wonít be competitive next year and Porcello may be just as good as Marcum by 2012 (even though the Jays may not compete by 2012 either).   

Jose Bautista, Jason Frasor, and a mid level Blue Jay prospect get traded to the Braves for Julio Teheran.  I know losing Bautista hurts (especially since heís supposed to be Escobarís mentor) but a potential ace is worth it.  The Braves look desperate to make a good playoff run for Bobby Coxís last year (how else do you explain the Escobar tradeÖ.I donít know how AA kept a straight face at that press conference, he robbed the Braves) and they may be willing to make this trade knowing that Bautista could supplant Chipper at 3B next season.    Bautista may continue to hit 30 HR a year while playing good D, but heís probably also going to keep hitting 230 (albeit with a great OBP).   Also, extending Bautista (same as Marcum) would probably mean paying market value and weíre still in the rebuilding stage when you want to avoid doing that.  Once we have a good enough young core of players to compete year in and year out, then you can start extending guys when they get expensive and/or signing free agents.   Until then, itís better to spend all of Rogersí money on signing international free agents and expensive high school draft picks.   The Jays probably wonít start spending big (the often mentioned $120) until about 2016, once enough of these international players (signed at 16/17) and high school draft picks (signed at 18/19) start reaching the majors.

Alex Obal - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#218838) #
my vote with Camp is "small sample size BABIP fluctuation", i.e. 70% luck

I basically agree, at least for 2010. I just think he might also have improved his true-talent BABIP from 'bad' to 'a bit better than average,' even after you adjust for defense. That may be less important than the luck.
Jdog - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#218839) #
I think the goal remains finding a long term solution at 3B. An Outfield of Bautista, Snider and Wells is much better both offensively and defensively than having Snider in RF and Lewis in LF. Lewis would make for a great 4th OF. The problem being 3B seems to be fairly weak across the league right now, so it might just be easier to find a another good OF and stick with Bautista at 3B. If your going to go with a below average 3B defensively I would like to make a run at Alex Gordon. I also like the idea above of going after Moustakas by offering Drabek or one of our top pitching prospects, but KC probably has no reason to deal Moustakas.

But other than 1B the only position which can be updated is 3B and Lewis's spot in the OF. Assuming you want to give Arencibia a chance at C.
Kasi - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#218840) #
Uhh that last trade is completely ludicrous. There is no way we're getting Teheran for that. I think the Wood trade has some possibilities. Don't know enough about the Colorado one. But no way we're getting Julio.
ayjackson - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#218841) #

I stopped reading at Brandon Wood.  Do people still think he's a prospect?  I imagine the Angels would trade him straight up for Emaus. 

 Andy Marte must be out there somewhere, why not trade for him?

Chuck - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#218842) #

I still expect to see Hill and Lind return to dominance as hitters and Hill is a fine 2B.

I'm not trying to argue that they won't "return to dominance", but I'm not so sure that this is a slam dunk.

Lind was obviously insanely great in 2009, with an OPS+ of 144. But other than that, he has only been as a good as league average once, and an OPS+ of 100 from a LF/DH is not really great.

I have no idea where Lind's "true level" lies and what should realistically be expected of him with a fresh start in 2011. We had every reason to expect a regression from his 2009 season, but certainly not a return to his rookie form. To me, he's more wild card than blue chip.

Aaron Hill's career best OPS+ of 117 was achieved in his age-27 season. His career OPS+ is 99. What is a realistic expectation moving forward?

I think Hill's "established level" will find him somewhere between 99 and 117 with 2009 proving to be his career year. WIth his defense at 2B and modest price tag, there's definite value there.

scottt - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 06:34 PM EDT (#218846) #
Arguably, the biggest move to be made is finding a new coach.

I don't expect a repeat of the Escobar trade. Trading Buck/Downs/Overbay is more likely to bring back prospects than rising stars.
It would not mind seeing Wallace, Arencibia and someone like Carlson in the second half even with the tough schedule.
I don't trust the Vegas stats.

I like Lewis in left. Somehow, the Jays never recovered from losing Reed Johnson. Catcher, 1B and 3B don't usually bat leadoff.
I see a need to platoon some of the left bats, maybe just rotate one good right handed bat through LF/1B/DH.

The pen needs to be completely overhauled but I don't see that happening this year. The Jays need an effective closer and contenders don't trade those away at the deadline.

Lind has a 10 game hitting streak.

jerjapan - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#218847) #
I have no idea why people are so down on Wallace.  He's had a cold couple of months.  He remains a young, elite hitting prospect, playing for his third organization since last season, and playing a new position, which he seems to be handling well.  Not to mention, not every hitter benefits the same way from a hitter's park. 
scottt - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#218848) #
Overbay (along with cash to pay his salary for the rest of the year) plus Gregg get traded to the Angels for Brandon Wood.

You sure there is upside there? He's a strike out machine. I like Johnny Mac's offensive numbers better.
bpoz - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 07:46 PM EDT (#218850) #
aaforpm, I like your thinking both longterm and short term. I say go for it. Some will work out and others will not. Maybe AA is thinking that way too as he covers all the possibilities. The rumor writers said that he was interested in getting into the Cliff Lee deal. Well why not. I mean a ton of prospects get involved so team A can get a player AA want & flip him to AA for what they want.
snider - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 09:33 PM EDT (#218854) #
Buck Martinez is really struggling on the telecast these days. It's become standard for him to misread a play and call a ball caught when it dropped or identify the wrong player. Has it always been this bad?
Mike Green - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 09:38 PM EDT (#218855) #
It's nice to see Aaron Hill stepping on the Mendoza line.  And what better place to do it than in Kansas City.
Jdog - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#218856) #
I wonder if anybody is scouting Litsch tonight. It would probably be best for him If he could work up some trade value.
uglyone - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#218857) #
Is there any other 25 year old pitcher in baseball with 300+ip and a career ERA under 4 that gets as little respect as our Jesse Litsch?
TamRa - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 10:18 PM EDT (#218858) #
If I was daydreaming a scenario, my first dream would be to come up with a deal which conned the royals out of Gordon and Soria.

Beyond that, I'd try to get Montero, or an upper-level 3B prospect i thought a lot of. the only other thing that jumps out at me would be to get a top shelf, top-of-the-order CF IF i was (as GM) willing to shift Wells out of CF (and i'm making no claims about how Wells is playing center this year - i'm just saying IF...)

i'm content to let AA exceed my expectations though.

greenfrog - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 10:40 PM EDT (#218859) #
If I didn't know better, I would think Buck really wanted to be dealt to a contender. With multiple scouts in attendance in KC, he's gone 3 for 8 (with two doubles) so far and caught two pretty good starts (Cecil's and Litsch's). Ditto Jose Bautista, who has apparently figured out a thing or two about hitting. The scouting reports on Gregg, however, may not be so rosy.
ramone - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 11:07 PM EDT (#218862) #

A major trade is reported to be going down in Philly, guesses are that they may be getting a second Roy in their rotation, Oswalt that would be.  Can't see it getting done without tradeing Brown away.

Helpmates - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 11:28 PM EDT (#218864) #
If I didn't know better, I would think Buck really wanted to be dealt to a contender.

Yeah, his trade value is probably at its zenith right now...and Arencibia is currently 2 for 2 in tonight's game.  I hope something can get done sometime soon.
whiterasta80 - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 11:32 PM EDT (#218865) #
And I can't see a Philly deal that doesn't involve Jason Werth.  Way too much money otherwise.
ayjackson - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 11:49 PM EDT (#218866) #
JPA update:  walk in 3rd PA
85bluejay - Tuesday, July 20 2010 @ 11:58 PM EDT (#218868) #

NOW is the time for AA to call his old friend Amaro and offer Marcum/Romero for Brown - either pitcher is cheap

& not a rental - but it must cost Phila. BROWN - an outfield of Brown/Wells/Snider is just what the doctor ordered.

jerjapan - Wednesday, July 21 2010 @ 12:59 AM EDT (#218870) #
Marcum / Romero for Brown is a bit nuts. 
metafour - Wednesday, July 21 2010 @ 01:51 AM EDT (#218871) #
Lind was obviously insanely great in 2009, with an OPS+ of 144. But other than that, he has only been as a good as league average once

Are you really going to hold his non-complete first time runs through the majors as some sort of career barometer? Not every top rookie is going to come up and hit their career peak straight away...Lind struggled as a more or less an MLB first timer, that is absolutely expected.  If Matt Wieters hits for a .900 OPS next year are you going to be saying "well he was really bad  last year and only decent the year before that"? No, because if Wieters hits for a .900 OPS he is simply fulfilling the potential that was always there.  Lind wasn't on par with Wieters as a prospect (only because of the defensive landslide), but lets not look past the fact that he absolutely destroyed every single level of professional baseball that he played in...including his MLB breakout last year.  Lind wasn't a decent minor-leaguer who pulled a Hinske and had a big year; he was an absolute top hitting prospect who lived up to said billing last year. 
scottt - Wednesday, July 21 2010 @ 06:31 AM EDT (#218873) #
Bautista's trade value is impaired by the belief that he's going to lose his power at some point. He needs probably at least a year before that belief dissipates.  I don't think he cares much about being with a contender. He's just establishing himself as a starter.

The KC pitching wasn't very good last night, injury, rain and all. Greinke takes the mount tonight. Could be a very different game.

85bluejay - Wednesday, July 21 2010 @ 06:57 AM EDT (#218874) #
It's Marcum or Romero for Brown not Marcum and romero
Chuck - Wednesday, July 21 2010 @ 07:19 AM EDT (#218875) #

Lind wasn't a decent minor-leaguer who pulled a Hinske and had a big year; he was an absolute top hitting prospect who lived up to said billing last year. 

That's true, but he's 27 now and has had exactly one good year in the majors. He may well be a late bloomer, like Edgar Martinez and David Ortiz, and there may be many good seasons to follow. That would not be unheard of. I'm just saying that someone with Lind's career profile to date is not a lock to be a star moving forward.

greenfrog - Wednesday, July 21 2010 @ 07:56 AM EDT (#218876) #
Phillies might consider Brown for Romero but that would be robbing Peter to pay Paul. The Jays need Romero to anchor the rotation going forward. Plus, you're arguably buying high on Brown, who is having a great season and is generally considered the top prospect in the minors.

Marcum for Brown makes more sense from the Jays' perspective (given that Marcum is a few years older than Romero and has an injury history), but I don't see the Phillies making that trade.
whiterasta80 - Wednesday, July 21 2010 @ 08:41 AM EDT (#218877) #

The Phillies need Brown because they're either dealing Werth or letting him walk.  They can't afford to keep that core together without replenishing it with cheap young talent.  Given that, Brown is about as untouchable as Mike Stanton, Stephen Strasberg, Jason Heyward, or Carlos Santana.  It would, legitimately, cost us Marcum AND Romero plus probably Hechevarria/D'Arnaud to buy him right now.


TamRa - Wednesday, July 21 2010 @ 09:45 AM EDT (#218879) #
the Phillies wouldn't include Brown in a deal for the best pitcher in baseball and they are going to let him got for Marcum or Romero?

Methinks that's a pipe dream with some very interesting contents in the pipe.

Mike Green - Wednesday, July 21 2010 @ 10:09 AM EDT (#218881) #
Taking a scan of the Phillies' minor league system and what they are likely to buying (relief pitching), it seems more likely that you'll be targeting a B-/C+ prospect like Vance Worley.  They don't really have much in the way of position player prospects after Brown. 
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 21 2010 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#218882) #
"Methinks that's a pipe dream with some very interesting contents in the pipe."

No offense, but there's a logic problem here. The issue for Ricciardi (at least if you believe the rumours) was that they wouldn't trade Brown *and* Drabek (their two best prospects) for Doc. The Phillies might well have traded Brown for Halladay straight up in 2009 (or in the 2010 off-season).

I'm not saying they would do Romero for Brown, but it's not completely outlandish (especially if the Jays threw in a B prospect or two). Romero has emerged as one of the top young left-handed starters in baseball (in the AL East, no less). Acquiring him would give the Phillies a young, cheap, controllable #2 and a front three of Doc, Romero and Hamels as they try to contend over the next year or two.

But I agree that the Phillies will try to deal Werth for a lesser-but-still-good starting pitcher (maybe someone from the Rays stockpile of young talent).
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, July 21 2010 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#218886) #
The Phillies would not include Brown for Halladay; they're definitely not going to do it for one of those lesser guys.
TamRa - Wednesday, July 21 2010 @ 10:08 PM EDT (#218923) #
you want a Phillies deal? three way deal in which the Phillies get Marcum, someone else gets Werth, and and the jays get a package of prospects.

TB is supposedly interested in Werth. could the prospects include Hellickson? i doubt it. i wouldn't begin to suppose Jennings although he'd be the best fit for our needs.

whether or not I like the idea would depend on who the prospects were. I'm trying to avoid getting too emotionally invested in marcum, though I've heard and respect the arguments for why a young staff needs a guy like him.

bpoz - Thursday, July 22 2010 @ 10:22 AM EDT (#218946) #
There seem to be a fair number of our relievers on a long scoreless streak without being promoted.
IMO it makes sense to not promote them until after the trade deadline because they are more attractive as "add on" pieces during a hot streak. Makes sense?
uglyone - Thursday, July 22 2010 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#218951) #
IMO, it simply doesn't help our organization in any way to just trade Marcum for "a package of prospects". If we're trading Marcum for a stud youngster at a position of need, I can understand it, but trading a 28 year old with a 3.38era in his only seasons as a full-time starter, and who's controllable for years to come, just for the sake of it.....I don't see how that improves the organization in any way.
John Northey - Thursday, July 22 2010 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#218958) #
AA catches me as a guy who would rather trade for a stud than for a batch of decent prospects, vs JP who'd go for the package.

Now, how to get that stud is the question. Right now Philly is on the fringe of contention despite having a great year from Halladay. Their rotation is Halladay & Hamels then duck for cover as their 3 starters with over 2 starts have ERA+'s of 87-86-69 (imagine two Morrow's and Tallet). The Jays have no reason to trade Marcum outside of his being arbitration eligible thus it would take a killer deal to send him away. Camp and Downs would be appealing to Philly (and many other contenders) as both would be reasonable in cost ($ and prospects) and could fill 2 innings at a time out of the pen if needed. Could always toss in Tallet to fill an emergency role for them as he should do better in the weaker league.

The Mets, Dodgers, Red Sox and Angels are also on the fringe, where something drastic has to change quickly. All were expected to contend and might have desperate GM's. Philly shouldn't as they just made it to the series last year. So don't expect a panic trade out of Philly, but those other 4 are potentials, especially the Mets & Dodgers I suspect. So here are my thoughts about the potential panic teams (ie: best shot at a steal).

Mets: Should be desperate in RF as they have Jeff Francoeur there hitting for an 81 OPS+ so Bautista is a very, very tempting one for them I'd suspect, however Beltran is back now so maybe not. Their rotation has 2 studs in Santana and Dickey (140+ ERA+) and a solid #3 in Niese with their #4 at 101 (Pelfrey) but #5 is a mess so an upgrade for them would be very tempting as they are using Takahashi there when he is far better suited to the pen (5.75 ERA as starter vs 2.79 in pen). Their pen has F-Rod (21 saves, 152 ERA+, solid other stats), and a batch of guys who have done decent for the most part. The Mets look to be a team potentially needing a RF and maybe another starter. Meanwhile the blogs are going nuts on the need for an improved pen thus maybe they want one or more of Downs/Camp/Frasor/Gregg/Tallet/Janssen.

Dodgers: Great offense except at catcher (go figure) maybe they'd like Buck given Martin is now on year 2 of 86 OPS+. Their rotation and pen both need help and another left hander would be ideal so Tallet/Downs would be a good combo for them. Maybe a Buck/Downs/Tallet for a top prospect?

Red Sox: Scutaro is down to an 89 OPS+ (phew, good timing eh?), while Hermida has been in LF with a 70 OPS+ mixed with Nava at 119. The rotation, a strength going in, has run into injuries and ineffectiveness, while the pen has also had issues. However, Boston's management isn't known for panicking so I doubt anything amazing can happen, but again we are a good fit with Bautista/Downs/Camp (don't see them going for Tallet/Frasor/Gregg).

Angels: Have played Brandon Wood at 3B despite a 10 (yes, TEN) OPS+. Bautista and even Enarnacion have to be darn tempting to them. Kazmir has been yanked at long last from the rotation (62 ERA+ over 17 starts) and Joe Saunders hasn't been impressive (88 ERA+, 103 lifetime). Their pen has nothing special this year. Thus our relievers and Marcum and Bautista all are tempting and they have an owner who pushes hard. Could be a good match.
Mike Green - Thursday, July 22 2010 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#218963) #
Gameday shows that last ball hit by Laird as an over-the-fence pull back from DeWayne Wise.  Anyone watching?
92-93 - Thursday, July 22 2010 @ 05:06 PM EDT (#218976) #
Not sure which one you're referring to, but unless I missed it that didn't happen this afternoon. There was a towering fly ball that looked threatening that Wise caught on the warning track, but it was the kind of ball even Lind should have had no problem getting to.
Mike Green - Thursday, July 22 2010 @ 09:05 PM EDT (#218985) #
Thanks.  Gameday is not always reliable.
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