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You gotta roll with the punches
To get to what is real
Knock down the bastards
And show them how it feels



The Bluebirds find themselves back in their home nest for at least two more games down 2-0 against the Clevelands. Certainly not a hole too deep to get out of, as long as they don't try to dig their way out (dig up, stupid!).

Game Three features a duel of young talented righthanders who finished up with very similar seasons: Marcus Stroman and Trevor Bauer. Marcus is noticeably better at limiting free passes, while Bauer is somewhat better at missing bats. Speaking of Bauer, much has been made of his unusual injury (what exactly is a "drone", anyhow? How is it different than a radio controlled model plane?), which prevented him from pitching Game Two as originally scheduled. Stroman meanwhile hasn't pitched in a game since the wild Wildcard affair against Baltimore nearly two weeks ago, so it will be interesting to see how his stuff plays out in this crucial game.

(For what it's worth -- in my humble experience as an extremely amateur pitcher, I've gone through similar periods of about two weeks without game action/throwing a meaningful pitch. I've noticed that my command isn't as sharp because my fastball is moving more than usual, my shoulder feeling just a bit too rested and strong but not quite loose enough. What does that mean for Stroman tonight? Probably nothing, though it might be something at least to watch for in the first inning).

The real key for Toronto though are the bats. You're not gonna win anything scoring one run in two games. To the naked eye it does seem like since Lindor's homer in Game One, the hitters have been pressing far too much. Tomlin was sharp in Game Two, but the Toronto bats seemed entirely allergic to the up-the-middle/opposite field approach that worked so well against Texas. No matter: a timely hit here, there (and everywhere), another solid pitching performance, avoiding Andrew Miller while trailing in the game, the loud crowd behind them, and you gotta hope it'll all be enough. Lets rock.


Be nice to win it.


ALCS Game III -- Stand By Me, Yeah | 115 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
CeeBee - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#334076) #
This year has not been kind to Jose.... or maybe it's the other way around.
Gerry - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#334077) #
I'd be interested to know how many right fielders would make that catch. I assume its more than 50%.
Chuck - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:29 PM EDT (#334078) #
There will be blood.
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:32 PM EDT (#334079) #
I think i'd rather have let him keep trying to pitch thru the discomfort.
Mike Green - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:32 PM EDT (#334080) #
Starting Bauer was evidently a mistake. His hand was a mess before. 
Mike Green - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#334081) #
UO, he can't pitch because of all the blood on the ball.
Glevin - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:35 PM EDT (#334082) #
Huge break. Not only helps the Jays today but changes everything for the rest of the series.
eudaimon - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:35 PM EDT (#334083) #
Poor guy, you gotta feel for him a bit. Misses maybe the biggest start of his career because of a freak accident. I'd rather we'd have knocked him out early the old fashioned way.

Does that mean Cleveland will do two bullpen days this series? Or does Kluber just move up to start in game 4? I'd bet on the latter.

Jose should have made that catch, but I doubt Saunders would have done made it either. Still, that's not saying much.

Gerry - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:38 PM EDT (#334084) #
Kluber will now start tomorrow and game 7, if necessary. Tomlin will go game 5 or 6. The Jays should beat up two relievers/emergency starters and then need two more from Kluber and Tomlin.
StephenT - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:40 PM EDT (#334085) #
I think UO meant that Gibbons shouldn't have complained about Bauer being out there.  He wasn't doing well.
Dr. Zarco - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:40 PM EDT (#334086) #
Tough break for Bauer, feel for him. I'm not convinced this is good for the Jays. May mean 3 Kluber starts, if it gets that far. And sometimes mixing and matching can cause some bad matchups for hitters. Though hopefully Jays hitters break out.

Tough break for the Jays in the first. 2 balls put in play were 98 and 105mph, around 2 walks. Most innings that combo would score a couple.
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:41 PM EDT (#334087) #
yeah Mike but the ump didn't notice until gibby said something, and tito wouldn't have aaid anything.

bauer might have walked in a run there if they let him keep going.
Dr. Zarco - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:43 PM EDT (#334088) #
Miller might go 4 today.

And Stroman can't control his breaking ball. Tough walk to Crisp after 0-2.
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:50 PM EDT (#334089) #
too many pitches. i know he's been off a longtime but he's got to find his range soon....I mean right now.
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:53 PM EDT (#334090) #
saunders has had a nice little postseason.
Gerry - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 08:54 PM EDT (#334091) #
Opposite field homer there.
SK in NJ - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#334092) #
I like Bautista at lead off (even though he's been awful this post season), but Goins does nothing better than or even as good as Barney. He should not be starting in a playoff game. The shine from the 2nd half of 2015 should be long gone by now. Just play Barney at 2B and live with the consequences.
Chuck - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#334093) #
Do you have possession if you are holding a ball that is touching the ground?
hypobole - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 09:04 PM EDT (#334094) #
Really nice 9 pitch at bat by Zeke, then Goins first pitch swinging.
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#334095) #
goins in the game is infuriating, of course, but i won't dwell on it.

great quick shutdown inning for stro. much needed.

we really have no excuse to lose this series with their pitching injuries. let's get this done already.
eudaimon - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 09:13 PM EDT (#334096) #
I don't mind Goins being in there. His and Barney's stats vs RHP are pretty much equal, and we can always pinch him for him if a lefty comes in.
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 09:14 PM EDT (#334097) #
i understood kluber getting the massive zone but these bullpen arms getting it too is infuriating, especially since our guys aren't getting that call.
eudaimon - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#334098) #
Goins also hit that ball fairly hard, just right at the wrong spot.
SK in NJ - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#334099) #
Wow. Manship is not good at all and the 2-3-4 hitters hit 3 consecutive weak pop ups to end the inning. If the Jays are not leading by the time Miller comes in, then it's over, and they have no one to blame but themselves if that happens.
Magpie - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#334100) #
Manship is not good at all

Manship did have an ERA+ of 151 this year, which is better than anyone in the Toronto pen not named Osuna. (And almost as good as Osuna's come to think of it.)
BlueJayWay - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#334101) #
Hopefully the offense wakes up in time to save the season.
sam - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 09:36 PM EDT (#334102) #
That third inning with three lazy fly-balls was poor and to me sort of typical of this series. Our best players really haven't performed.

SK in NJ - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 09:39 PM EDT (#334103) #
He had a FIP of 5.11, a WAR of -0.3, a BB/9 of 4.5, and gave up a ton of hard contact this season. That was a pretty good chance for the Jays to score, especially with the meat of the order coming up, and it lead to 3 weak pop ups, and Martin swinging at balls way out of the strike zone.

The Indians pen only gets better from here on out. That's going to look like a huge wasted opportunity if their big arms are on the way.
Gerry - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#334104) #
Zeke's come to play tonight.
sam - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 09:58 PM EDT (#334105) #
Stroman pitching like it's the regular season again.
SK in NJ - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:05 PM EDT (#334106) #
Not really Stroman's fault there. He should not have been out there to face the lineup the 3rd time through, especially with a fresh Jays pen. Not sure why Gibbons was more concerned with squeezing another inning out of him when everyone in the pen is available. Might be costly.
John Northey - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#334107) #
Geez, can this get any more frustrating. Mix in the international feed with announcers who are so pro-Cleveland it is nuts. The only good thing is if the Jays are swept at least the pain is over - this series has been a total disaster so far. Cleveland loses their starter in the first inning - Jays score only twice so far. Napoli steals a base next guy gets a hit to drive him in. Weird frustrating game.
Gerry - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#334108) #
Every little thing going the Cleveland way. Jose dropping the ball, Napoli taking the extra base that leads to a run. Jays missing hittable pitches.
Mike Green - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#334109) #
The Indians have been playing awfully well in the field and on the bases.
ComebyDeanChance - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#334110) #
No Country for Old Men

Bautista could barely dribble it back to the pitcher.
Chuck - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:15 PM EDT (#334111) #
Miller for 2 and Allen for 1 to close it out?
ComebyDeanChance - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:18 PM EDT (#334112) #
Gibbons would have used Miller to face Saunders.
SK in NJ - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#334113) #
Francona is a great manager. He's managing this game, and entire series, incredibly well. Wish he opted out of his contract when Shapiro left Cleveland and came to the Jays, but I guess that was a pipe dream.

The Jays will need to make some huge changes to the offense in the winter.
Dr. Zarco - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#334114) #
What an utter disaster. Jays are not in the same league as these Indians right now. They might have been a week ago or next week. But not right now.
vw_fan17 - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#334115) #
3 innings right here to save the season...
eudaimon - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:24 PM EDT (#334116) #
Two crappy at bats in that inning. Tulo up 2-0 grounds out, Martin swings at junk on 2-0. Maybe I'm wrong here, but those seemed like good times to take a pitch. Especially Martin, who hasn't done much this postseason.

It felt like the Jays offense had some "edge" in the series against Texas, but I haven't seen any of it so far this series. Starting to get that feeling I got watching the Jays in September.

At least Carrera is doing well. Maybe we can finally hit Miller?
eudaimon - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:26 PM EDT (#334117) #
I wouldn't say we're not in their league. The games are still close after all, and the pitching has more or less done very well. But yeah, they just aren't looping together enough hits, or getting them at the right times.
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:28 PM EDT (#334118) #
cleve hasn't trailed in their last 50+ innings now.
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:30 PM EDT (#334119) #
"not in their league", "huge changes needed".

we're in the middle of our 3rd crazy tight game in a row in the ALCS.
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:36 PM EDT (#334120) #
can we get 2 baserunners on in a row to start an inning? stay tuned.
Kasi - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:36 PM EDT (#334121) #
Yeah I imagine the group of stars who are floundering to get any runs scored (Zeke seems to be our best hitter atm) are going to be much better next year when they're one more year into their thirties. I'm not looking forward to what Tulo and Martin are going to offer in the last years of their contracts. Anyway got three more innings to make it a game.
vw_fan17 - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:43 PM EDT (#334122) #
3 breaking balls to Smoak, and there'll be 2 down..
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#334123) #
yeah yeH I know - the red sox amazing awesome offense doing nothing against cleve and fizzling in the ALDS means nothing, but for our guys it means BLOW IT UP.

got it.
vw_fan17 - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#334124) #
Wow, those announcers are biased: "Whoa - you could call him out!"
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:48 PM EDT (#334125) #
ok Joey. now's the time.
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#334126) #
finally the ump doesn't give them every outside corner touch, and we walk. fancy that.

we need ya now, Josh.
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:53 PM EDT (#334127) #
well ****.
King Ryan - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:53 PM EDT (#334128) #
I was just about to post that this AB will be the defining moment when Donaldson lined out on the first pitch. Dang it.
Dr. Zarco - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:54 PM EDT (#334129) #
1 for last 25 with 2 outs and RISP is unfathomably bad. And unlucky. What crap.
Gerry - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 10:54 PM EDT (#334130) #
No breaks.....
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:02 PM EDT (#334131) #
he clearly came off.
christaylor - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:06 PM EDT (#334132) #
Sweep. Cubs versus Clevelands here we come...
Dr. Zarco - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:09 PM EDT (#334133) #
Killer 2-1 strike call to Tulo. This is beyond brutally frustrating.
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:10 PM EDT (#334134) #
Perez is apparently the best pitch framer of all time.

robot umps please.
Glevin - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:15 PM EDT (#334135) #
Terrible strike two to Tull but he then takes strike three down the middle. Umpiring has been pretty bad but if we lose, it will be because we can't hit not because of a handful of bad calls.
Mike Green - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:17 PM EDT (#334136) #
I find Perez' pitch-framing obvious.  It's the only part of his defensive game I am not so keen on.  Not that he's bad at it.  He doesn't take strikes and make them look like balls. 

I don't know why you wouldn't be looking for the lazy slider on the outside corner on Miller's first pitch.  He's been throwing it just about every first pitch.  It's the one that you can line the opposite way if you are not trying to do too much. 

SK in NJ - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:23 PM EDT (#334137) #
Perez was rated very highly in pitch framing this season. While the calls have been off in some cases, it's no different than Martin stealing strikes. In this case, the Jays are not getting the benefit on some of the calls.

As long as MLB stubbornly avoids technological advances and keeps such an integral part of the game (balls and strikes) in the hands of human error, then this type of stuff will happen. That's not the reason the Jays are down (or about to be down) 0-3, though.

Regardless, MLB is trying so hard to come up with ways to "improve the game", but are missing such a logical change (robo umps).
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:27 PM EDT (#334138) #
life.
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:29 PM EDT (#334139) #
alright upton prove me wrong. please prove me wrong.
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:33 PM EDT (#334140) #
christ what a play.

another inch for them. dammit.
uglyone - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:35 PM EDT (#334141) #
well, when all my red sox friends (and i have far too many) gave up on their team in the 2004 ALCS, I told them they were crazy and could easily come back. I've lorded that over them ever since.

So I'm not giving up on this team now. We're the better team. We can do this.
sam - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:35 PM EDT (#334142) #
Pretty embarrassing game, no?
John Northey - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:37 PM EDT (#334143) #
Well, likely just one more game of watching a team of sluggers swing for the fences with every bloody pitch. Was annoyed to see Navarro called into the game, but he did what the rest of the team needed to do vs Millar - shorten up and just put the bloody bat on the ball. With any lucky Barney would've been on base there too.

Sigh. Well, it was a fun season through the ALDS just wish the Jays weren't losing to the Cleveland team as that logo disgusts me. Guess I can just ignore the World Series and read summaries, although if the Cubs are there I'll be hard pressed to ignore it.
SK in NJ - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:39 PM EDT (#334144) #
Miller is incredible. No one can touch him right now, although that Barney grounder looked good for a bit. The Indians have just not been making any mistakes.

Regardless, this one is clearly on the offense. To have Bauer out of the game in the 1st and barely get two runs on the board at home is just a terrible way to lose. I would have preferred Carrasco and Salazar be healthy than lose this way. Stings a lot worse.
scottt - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:46 PM EDT (#334145) #
If Stoman gets pull to start the 6th, Francona might have ran out of relievers. That's the key mistake of the game for me.
Kasi - Monday, October 17 2016 @ 11:55 PM EDT (#334146) #
2/17 with a few walks from the top of the lineup is just not good enough. Bottom four got five hits, although Goins should not have been in there. The stars aren't producing and when that happens Jays don't win.
King Ryan - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#334147) #
It's a real bummer that the Jays caught a pretty big break with the whole Cleveland rotation being thrown into disarray, and they weren't able to take advantage.

Oh well. At least it's playoff baseball.
Eephus - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 12:31 AM EDT (#334148) #
Watching this series has been like being nibbled to death by street pigeons. They look like crap, it's painful while taking seemingly forever, and it's not even an honourable way to go down.

I might have to start inventing curse words for how this has made me feel, I've already used all the good ones too many times and my neighbours are getting bored.
uglyone - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 12:39 AM EDT (#334149) #
Blue Jays hits: 17
Indians hits: 17
Blue Jays home runs: 1
Indians home runs: 4


we're getting outslugged. nothing more.
LouisvilleJayFan - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 07:00 AM EDT (#334150) #
This. So this.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 07:54 AM EDT (#334151) #
"If Stoman gets pull to start the 6th, Francona might have ran out of relievers."


That was the back breaker in this game. Stroman has been awful this season when he's facing a lineup for the 3rd (or 4th) time. It was a huge mistake to have him pitch the 6th inning against the top of the Indians lineup, especially when everyone in the pen was available. He was managing like it was a regular season game trying to squeeze an extra inning out of his starter. In a game of that magnitude, you don't do that.

Whether the Jays would have scored again even if the score remained tied into the later innings is questionable, but at least there would have been a chance.
mathesond - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 09:08 AM EDT (#334152) #
SO, if Kluber goes today on short rest, the Jays bats start to come around and they take advantage. Follow up with a win tomorrow vs. either Tomlin or Wholestaff, and get back to Cleveland. Win the other Tomlin/Wholestaff game, and face Kluber, again on short rest. Comeback, baby!
Mike Green - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 09:34 AM EDT (#334153) #
I'll venture a guess that Kluber does not come back on short rest now that the Indians lead 3-0. 

To take the longer view of the playoff record over 2015-16, the Blue Jays have over those two post-seasons played teams that were on average not quite as good as they were (in my view) and are 8-9.  They have scored 77 runs and allowed 74 in those games.  It's pretty much par performance for them.  Time for some birdies.

And as for luck, the Jays got their share of the luck yesterday.  Carrera's triple and Naquin's ground-rule double could easily have gone the other way, which would probably have led to one more Cleveland run and possibly one less Blue Jay run.  The calls on the "coming-off-the-bag" play both went the Jays way.  I think that the calls were right but there easily could have been a split decision.  Cleveland won because they hit two no-doubt home runs and Bautista could not squeeze the ball on a 40-60% play and Cleveland's defence was, as usual, very good.

For today, I would suggest moving Saunders up in the order.  Martin is obviously tired; Saunders is not and seems to have regained his timing.


Kasi - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 09:38 AM EDT (#334154) #
If they resign Jose they need to make sure he is a DH only with maybe an occasional fill in start in LF. He has no range and his once strong arm is a noodle. Donaldsons shot being caught and Napoli's not was the difference in that game.
Paul D - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#334155) #
They've announced that Kluber is starting today.

http://m.indians.mlb.com/news/article/206376464/corey-kluber-to-start-game-4-for-indians/
rpriske - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 09:56 AM EDT (#334156) #
Tonight, or maybe tomorrow (but probably tonight) is the end of an era for the Jays.

They will be a very different team next year.

And that is ok.

Edwin will be gone (simply because he is going to get a stupidly large contract somewhere else. Probably Boston).
Jose will be gone (at least I hope so...) because the Jays shouldn't promise him OF time and someone else will. Maybe even Cleveland.
Saunders will be... actually we might still have Saunders. With the weak Free Agent class the Jays should offer him a QO... and he just might take it.

That means they need an OF (if Saunders leaves, or even if he doesn't), or maybe two if they do not have faith in Zeke. (I hope they keep Zeke in the lineup, personally). Otherwise they have too many 4th outfielders. (And if Upton is starting on a regular basis, something has gone wrong.)
They need a firstbaseman. (Please, PLEASE, don't let it be Smoak.)
They need a DH. (Unless Saunders stays. Maybe even then.) 'Rotating rest days' as a DH is a losing strategy.
The need to replace some relief.
What about 2B? Is Travis reliable?

That is a lot of change.

The positives:

The rotation seems set... and set well.

The left side of the infield is as solid as they come. CF is locked up. Their closer is set.


Who can they get?

Are the Votto rumours legit? I woudl like to see the Jays go after Desmond. Maybe Reddick. Logan Morrison?

Yeah... this will be a different looking team.

At least I hope so.


Kasi - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#334157) #
Actually rotating rest days as a DH is the strategy more and more AL teams are taking these days. There are very few full time DHs around anymore. I think it is important that they have no "no field" guy so guys like Martin, Donaldson and Tulo can get some rest from the field on a regular basis.

I wouldn't worry about relief. They showed they could fill holes this year and they can do it again. There is very few relievers worth investing in.

As for the rest of the lineup, it will be interesting for sure what happens in the offseason. Definitely will be a lot of backseat quarterbacking going on about all the moves that are going to happen.
uglyone - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 10:19 AM EDT (#334158) #
I never understood the need to give up before it's over.

When it's over it's over.



TOR - CLE

1B: 13 - 11
2B: 2 - 2
3B: 1 - 0
HR: 1 - 4
BB: 7 - 7
SB: 1 - 1


Big Ball > Small Ball
uglyone - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 10:22 AM EDT (#334159) #
And never has more been made of back to back ALCS team having exactly 2 key impending free agents as it has with this year's jays.
Parker - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#334160) #
I'd move on without Bautista or Gibbons. Or Cecil.

I'd like Encarnacion back but only at a "wants to stay in Toronto" discount, which he wouldn't be interested in. And I wouldn't bring the parrot back, either.
rpriske - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#334161) #
<blockquote>I never understood the need to give up before it's over.</blockquote>

It is called being realistic.

Teams leading 3-0 have a series record of 34-1 all time.

uglyone - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#334162) #
you literally have between 1-10gms left to cheer for your team this year. why give up now of all times?
Kasi - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#334163) #
Those key free agents aren't good enough. Even if both are brought back the offense isn't good enough. The only thing the FA market actually really has this offseason is a glut of DH types. So if this team actually wants to improve offensively next year they need to double down on AA's strategy. Basically send all the prospects Cinci wants for someone like Votto. If they do that they might be able to squeak another playoff appearance out before they turn into the Phillies.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 10:31 AM EDT (#334164) #
If Saunders comes back, I don't think it will be with a QO attached. Since it seems like he loves playing in Toronto and the Jays need bodies to fill spots in the lineup, I could see a scenario where he is back, but $17M for a DH coming off a 1.4 WAR and 117 wRC+ in his "All Star" season just does not appear to be a wise investment. Maybe a short-term type of deal, like 2/20, or something along those lines, would be something the FO would do. Otherwise, there are a bunch of DH types in free agency with similar skill sets. I would not prioritize Saunders at all, though I would have said the same for Smoak, and (unfortunately) he will be back.

Jose had a mediocre season, a bad post-season, and two injuries during the season. He will be 36 next season with a QO attached to him, and his defense is awful now. I'm at a point where I'd be surprised if he's not back with the Jays in 2017 just because I don't know how many teams would lose a pick for him while sticking him in the OF everyday. He seems to fit the "veteran buy low" type of free agent, but the FA market is so bad that it's hard to say. I've said before, if the Jays can bring him back on a short-term deal (one year, two max) and stick him at DH, then I'd be fine with it. Otherwise, move on.

I'm not worried about the pen. The SP looks good on paper, but depth should always be a priority in case something goes wrong. The main issue will be fixing the offense with all the impending FA's. Shapiro/Atkins will need to hit some home runs this winter.
BlueJayWay - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#334165) #
They need a DH. (Unless Saunders stays. Maybe even then.) 'Rotating rest days' as a DH is a losing strategy.

Wha? If anything most teams are going away from the fulltime DH type and are using it to rotate the position players through.
uglyone - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 10:35 AM EDT (#334166) #
Bautista and Saunders were either the 13th & 14th or the 14th & 15th most valuable players on the roster this year, worth between 1-1.5 wins each. The need to portray losing that contribution as a deathblow - or as hard to upgrade on - is interesting.

anyways, huge game today.
Kasi - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 10:42 AM EDT (#334167) #
Nice turnaround, I thought earlier in the season we had to throw money at Jose and that he had to be brought back? So only EE is worth it now? I'm not so sure that Jose properly positioned to only be a DH might still be a better hitter than EE in at least one of the next two years. I don't have a problem with any of EE, Jose or Saunders in isolation. The problem is there are 3 DHs in that group. Choose one to bring back and choose wisely.

And it's true that production isn't hard to upgrade on. What is hard to upgrade on is the declining value of the rest of the hitters on the roster. Martin and Tulo and Pillar in particular. It's not a good year for FAs, if they want to make serious upgrades they'll have to make trades. So bye bye potentially to guys like Urena, Alford, Reid-Foley or Vlad Jr.

Like I said this offseason will make good popcorn theatre.
rpriske - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 10:54 AM EDT (#334168) #
Why am I writing off this year?

A. Common sense

B. Because the team has pissed me off over the last few games by not beating this incredibly BEATABLE (and bloody racist) team. I'm grumpy.

Looking past this series is less depressing than concentrating on the team pissing away the opportunity to go to the World Series.

Mike Green - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 11:06 AM EDT (#334169) #
They've announced that Kluber is starting today.

Wrong again.  This time, I am glad to be wrong.  Kluber has never pitched on 3 days rest in his major league career, and has pitched slightly better on 5 days rest than on 4 days rest. 

I wonder if Francona's complete re-working of pitching roles in the playoffs might lead to some changes in the industry standard for pitcher usage.  The underlying theme (to me anyways) is that if you give a decent pitcher a good defence behind him, he is a good bet to give you 2-3 good innings.  Obviously you can succeed with a more traditional model, as the Blue Jays have proved in 2016, but perhaps the one size fits all approach to developing a staff may lose its appeal.
uglyone - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 11:06 AM EDT (#334170) #
Yes, Kasi, Jose himself would be a good bet to be an upgrade over that next year.

This doesn't change the fact that he contributed only 1-1.5 wins to our ALCS (at least) team this year.
eudaimon - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 11:40 AM EDT (#334171) #
Leaving in Stroman was questionable, but then again I'd say it was less questionable than relying on any of the bullpen save for Osuna and Biagini. He had retired 6 in a row I think, so might as well leave him in in hopes that we'd only need 3 innings from those guys. While Osuna is presumably a bit better rested now, I wouldn't really want to push him over one innings, and Biagini two unless totally necessary.

I think this postseason might lead to even larger contracts for "relief ace" types like Miller. It seems that while offense is obviously important, pitching is what really wins postseason games. And having awesome relief pitching (and then running them out there everyday for 1-2 innings) might be what wins a World Series.

Regardless, I feel strangely optimistic about the rest of the series. We're going to come back, believe it or not. We win games when we need to.

BlueJayWay - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#334172) #
Just get it back to Cleveland.
Parker - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 11:52 AM EDT (#334173) #
"We're" the best team in baseball. Right ugly? "Our" issues are nothing more serious than getting outslugged in this series. You have statistics to prove it. Once "we" stop getting outslugged, "we're" going to win the next four games in a row. Right?

Well, that's a relief.
Parker - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#334174) #
This doesn't change the fact that he contributed only 1-1.5 wins to our ALCS (at least) team this year.

It's a good thing Darwin Barney isn't wasting anyone's time asking for a $150M contract.
uglyone - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 12:07 PM EDT (#334175) #
no parker, the cubs are better.

but hey they might not get past the NLCS either.

playoffs can be cruel.
uglyone - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#334176) #
But I do enjoy seeing you pat yourself on the back and mocking me because the jays are....er...one of the final four teams left standing?

good work, nostradamus.
rpriske - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 12:39 PM EDT (#334177) #
The Cubs are the best team in baseball.

The best team in the AL is probably the Red Sox... but they lost.

The Blue Jays are better than Cleveland... but they are losing.

If I were the Cubs (or the Dodgers), I wouldn't feel good about facing Cleveland. I think they visited the Crossroads...

Chuck - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 12:50 PM EDT (#334178) #
I wouldn't feel good about facing Cleveland

Cleveland seems to have this whole team of destiny thing going for them at the moment, but were I a fan of theirs, I would be nervous about once again having just two starting pitchers healthy and effective enough to be trusted. Andrew Miller isn't a Strat-O-Matic card. You can't just keep pitching him 2 innings a game. Something's got to give.

Richard S.S. - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 01:21 PM EDT (#334179) #
Scoring runs from 3B without a hit is easy:
Balks: Jays' Fans know how this works;
Passed Ball: most but not all;
Wild Pitch: most but not all;
Stolen Base: due to Starter inattention;
Sacrifice Fly: most but not all; and,
Ground Out: most but not all.

Pitching on just three rest is seldom very successful, but Managers still try it because alternatives are usually much worse. The Jays should be able to score runs against him. They may not win, but they should score runs. This might be the Jays best chance of winning this series.
Parker - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#334180) #
good work, nostradamus.

Um, thanks. Some of us feel there's more to baseball than cherry-picking numbers to show that the team we follow isn't actually better than its record indicates.
uglyone - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#334181) #
yeah, the Jays are in the ALCS, parkie baby. For the 2nd time in a row.

I was right, despite all your mockery.

just accept it and move on.
uglyone - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#334183) #
this is the 2nd time in Jays history that they've made the ALCS 2yrs running.

In boston's 100+ year history, they have done it 3 times.
Parker - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 02:07 PM EDT (#334186) #
Cherry-picker.
uglyone - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 02:09 PM EDT (#334187) #
Reality Bites.
pubster - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#334200) #
It's interesting seeing Shapiro's team sweep AA's team, despite the fact AA's team costs more.

=)
Parker - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#334210) #
uglyone, if the Jays let Bautista and Encarnacion and Saunders walk, do you have a projection for the 2017 team? I'd love for you to post it.
Parker - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#334212) #
Or would you just get a job with another team?
uglyone - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#334221) #
If the jays drop payroll by $35m I project they will be worse.
Parker - Tuesday, October 18 2016 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#334253) #
Do you mean like, not signing David Price at $35M (for the next seven years) or actually dropping payroll by $35M?

Because you really nailed that one.
uglyone - Wednesday, October 19 2016 @ 10:04 AM EDT (#334271) #
Can't bat 1.000!
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