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Four games with Boston have created such a huge thread that we'll get this one up Right Away.


The Bombers have been scuffling. They've lost 7 of their last 9. They have what's basically a two-man offense. They've allowed more runs than they've scored.

Yankee Stadium was built in the image of its famous predecessor. Which means it was built for left-handed power. Does this team have left-handed power? They do not. They have Rough Ned Odor. Mike Ford has been DFA'd and switch-hitter Aaron Hicks is out for the season. None of them have been able to crack the Mendoza Line.

They do have two very large, very talented right-handed power hitters in Aaron Judge and Giancarlo Stanton, both of whom are notoriously susceptible to injury. Judge, who has missed big chunks of each of the last three seasons, had been healthy enough this year to play in almost every game until this past Sunday when back spasms took him out of the lineup. Stanton played in just 41 games in 2019-20, and he returned from some time on the IL this season a couple of weeks ago. He's gone just 8-40 since his return but he did hit three homers this past week. They also have a Gold Glove second baseman whose won a pair of batting titles in D.J. LeMahieu - of course, this year he's playing first base and he's lost more than 100 points off his BAVG.

But they still have Gerrit Cole, and a pretty strong bullpen headed up by Aroldis Chapman. It's the Yankees. It's never easy.

Tue June 15 - Montgomery (3-1, 3.99) vs Ryu (5-4, 3.34)
Wed June 16 - Cole (7-3, 2.31) vs Stripling (2-3, 4.91)
Thu June 17 - King (0-3, 3.77) vs Zeuch (0-2, 6.75)
Yankees at Blue Jays, June 15-17 | 308 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
scottt - Monday, June 14 2021 @ 10:05 PM EDT (#400050) #
I'd be tempted to move Stripling down one and let Someguy deal with Cole.
hypobole - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 02:30 AM EDT (#400058) #
A couple of people have already suggested trading for immediate bullpen help. Richard Rodriquez name was brought up, I think a couple of times. What would he cost? Had trouble finding a comparable, but I settled on Mychal Givens. Both have had ups and downs, but have been really good for the most part. And neither would be a rental.

Givens was traded at the deadline last year and still had this year of control remaining. The package sent to Baltimore was more or less the equivalent, in our system, of something like Miguel Hiraldo, Riley Adams and Sem Robberse.

But Rodriguez has not one more, but two more years of control - he's not an FA until after the 2023 season. So there definitely will be a premium for that.

And if we want him now? Teams wait to sell because they know contenders will get desperate. Almost every contender will need bullpen help. So another premium to bypass the bidding process.

That's why teams will exhaust as many internal options as they can, hope their injured guys get healthy and their healthy guys stay healthy, at least until the reality of the deadline.

scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 06:07 AM EDT (#400061) #
There appear to be a surplus of infielders needing roster protection soon.
Smith, Martin, Groshans, Taylor, Lopez, etc...
Some of these guys should be traded for something soon, just need to keep the very best.
Might need to wait on BA or whoever updating their top 100.
They can spare one of the low minor shortstop and there's a fair number of fringe pitching prospects you can throw in.
Adams can be the third catcher for the next 2-3 years. I wouldn't deal him.
McGuire should go when they activate Kirk. A bit awkward if Jansen isn't back by then.
Jansen should go whenever they feel Moreno is ready, which won't be this year.
Not expecting much return in either case.

I don't know about Rodriguez specifically, but they can certainly get a reliever or two at the deadline.
Playing .500 ball against division rivals is good enough. Just need to crush the weak teams.
Losing 2-1 in the 9th on the road is not a bullpen issue. They score 2 runs before the 9th, Romano closes it and they're good. Also Boston has a guy with a .280 OBP leading off. That makes for an easy first inning, but in the 9th they came to the plate 2,3,4,5 and that's a really tough segment to contain. Some of these guys are hard to strikeout and the pitcher can't do much against balls in play.

Jonny German - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 06:07 AM EDT (#400062) #
Thomas Hatch is A Guy. Is he Some Guy? I'd like to see both him and Patrick Murphy up to fill in for Matz, with Hatch then going back to the AAA rotation and Murphy sticking around as a better bullpen option than Edwards / Beasley / Saucedo / Pumpkin Chatwood.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 07:23 AM EDT (#400063) #
teams will exhaust as many internal options

I agree with everything here. (Should this concern me?)

The Jays had more than enough relief pitching to withstand someone not pitching well or a couple of injuries. They didn't have enough to withstand three guys not pitching well and half a dozen injuries. I'm not sure they should have been prepared for that. Hence the current situation, with four more or less reliable pitchers (Romano, Castro, Payamps, Thornton), three guys scuffling to various degrees (Mayza, Dolis, Chatwood), and the back end filled out by the Waiver Wire.

This is a problem - four decent relievers is not enough for the Modern World. Hence, among other things, Montoyo's repeated attempts to get his struggling guys sorted out. Only Mayza is showing signs recently of responding, but he has to keep trying. For now. And the memory of Chatwood and Dolis pitching very well indeed is fresh enough in his mind, and my mind, and your mind to make it easy enough to believe in.

But four more guys should be available by the All-Star Break if not sooner (Borucki, Merryweather, Hatch, Murphy) and one more a little further down the road (Cole.) That's too many guys for the number of jobs available. We'll be shaking our head in befuddlement at the strangeness of it all. In fact, if Dolis and Chatwood are still pitching like this, they could end up as the ones on the outside looking in.
scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 08:22 AM EDT (#400064) #
Mayza going through a bad spell was part of the problem and I think some of that happened because he became the only lefty in the pen. Possibly, reduced usage is all that is required here.

Chatwood is a huge problem. It's up to Walker and Buschmann to try and figure that one out.

Castro and Payamps have been great. They are guys who were starters in the minors and they're not used to pitching without rest. That probably applies to Beasley as well.


Mike Green - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:17 AM EDT (#400065) #
The usage of the relievers has been sub-optimal.  Current reliever usage by leverage index (pLI):

Chatwood- 1.66
Dolis- 1.40
Romano- 1.37
Castro- 1.31
Mayza- 0.98
Beasley- 0.85
Payamps- 0.74

Over the last 2 years, Dolis has been averaging 6 walks per 9 innings.  It's not a good idea to continue to give high leverage innings to a reliever struggling to that extent with his control.  And you do have to find a way to ensure that Romano gets high leverage innings (last night's game being a nice example).
bpoz - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:32 AM EDT (#400066) #
Things should change on the injury front in 1 month. Only Yates and Phelps are gone for the year.

So everyone else will return and of course injuries will continue. I feel that this is highly probable.

We need to improve in the standings to be buyers at the trade deadline. This could happen. The FO has probably already decided how to play either case.
scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#400067) #
Last night would have been a bad time to give Romano high leverage innings.
You're just trying to extend a tie game into extra inning.
Every innings become high leverage and on the road you have a huge disadvantage against  a team who has been resting their pen for 2 days.
Romano was the perfect guy to try to close the 10th with a 1 run lead and  a runner on second.
Biggio makes that play in the first inning and maybe there's a 10th inning.

You can't win them all. Friday was a win that got away. Yesterday wasn't.


92-93 - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:01 AM EDT (#400068) #
Gary Sanchez has actually turned it around the last couple of weeks and is red hot. Which might be good for the Jays, considering how Higashioka owns em.

Three relievers got warm yesterday and didn't come into the game. It makes using a sore Romano in a 5 run game all the more inexcusable.

It shouldn't be hard to improve the bullpen. Atkins has flipped Oh, Smith, Phelps, Hudson, etc. and should look to part with similar value to bolster the Jays' chances.
bpoz - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#400069) #
Looking at Mike Greens list of relievers: Chatwood has lost it. Dolis as MG has said is not as good as he was last year. Romano has been very good.

Castro, Mayza, Beasley and Payamps are all new inexperienced arms added this year. Castro and Payamps have risen to the challenge. Continued success will provide better opportunities.

There are injuries. Montoyo has a terrible pen to work with.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:14 AM EDT (#400070) #
Agreed, bpoz.

Moreover, the bullpen strategy has been to eschew "top" arms in favour of plenty of fungible depth arms. That was supposed to be the strength of the bullpen.
scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#400071) #
Stripling was supposed to be in the pen.
All these guys on the 60IL were on the 40 roster. They let go of some fungible guys like Cole and Bass.
Dolis was one of their top relievers last year and there's more than half the years to go.
They did go for a premium arm with Yates. Phelps was a good signing.
The other arms are on the 60IL.
They could use a Daniel Hudson more than a Brad Hand right now.

As I said before, I'm curious to see how many of the 8 Rays pitchers on the 60IL are coming back and who gets DFAed by Tampa.

85bluejay - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 11:03 AM EDT (#400072) #
I don't think anyone is catching the Rays, so then it's a fight for the wild card. Given the Rays performance the last 2 seasons,their farm system and FO acumen, the rest of the division is in deep trouble.
bpoz - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 11:19 AM EDT (#400073) #
You beat me to it scottt about seeing the Rays pen.

First I looked at Chatwood's bb/k numbers. 15/26, 16/25 for Dolis, 8/6 Bergen and 6/10 Beasley. They are also hitting batsmen and giving up homeruns.

TB is doing much better with these numbers. 1 guy of theirs has horrible numbers. Feyereisen 9/11 with 1 hr which is the only run he has given up. ERA of .77 which is the best on the team.
scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#400074) #
Just winning every games against Baltimore and Detroit would put the Jays 25 games over .500.
If the rotation keeps rolling like this, things will turn around.

scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#400075) #
Tyler Glasnow is going for an MRI in his elbow after leaving his last game in the 4th.
bpoz - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 11:53 AM EDT (#400076) #
16 tough games in July. TB, NYM and Boston. The 1st tough game is July 2. The last July 29. We need to be higher in the standings. Then beat these guys.
pooks137 - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#400077) #
The package sent to Baltimore was more or less the equivalent, in our system, of something like Miguel Hiraldo, Riley Adams and Sem Robberse.

If this is the going price for relievers, even ones with track record and control like Rodriguez, count me out.

Like someone else said above, Tampa essentially has the division, so you are playing for the wild card. Which is a one-game play-in game.

Imagine the next decade of wailing if someone like Riley Adams were to turn into another Yan Gomes.

hypobole - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 11:56 AM EDT (#400078) #
Substance enforcement will start in a week, it seems. MLB is not known for smart moves, but this one seems to to be as good as possible. All substances will be enforced, so the umps won't have to make constant judgement calls. And the 10 day suspensions will be with pay. Mitigates friction with the MLBPA and makes it a team punishment more than a player one.
jerjapan - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 12:07 PM EDT (#400079) #
Clearly the org does not agree with me on this, and doubtless they know more about it than I do, but this really is the best time to give AAAA types a shot.  That kid Overton has made quite a lot of changes in the offseason and honestly couldn't be worse than what we've been getting. 

Instead of punting the last roster spot for a 'break glass in emergency' reliever, we should be trying to find a diamond in the rough.  Injured guys are coming back sooner or later, and, again, the outcome literally could not be worse than it currently is.  It blows my mind that Montoyo hasn't used Saucedo yet.  He's got pedestrian stuff as far as I know, but he's only allowed 2 BBs all year in Buffalo. Shouldn't something as simple as just throwing strikes be prioritized right now?
scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 12:17 PM EDT (#400080) #
Hiraldo is something like prospect #8 or #9. Adams is around #20, Robberse #25

That's relatively cheap.

Now, the Jays need Adams on the 40 roster to play when Kirk or Moreno are injured, so maybe not him specifically.

The Jays have 8 prospects on the top 100. Kirk and Manoah are already with the team. Same with Pearson.
Martin, Moreno, SWR and Groshans are advanced guys who could be up next year, so keeping those.
It would be very hard to say goodbye to Orelvis Martinez, but Hiraldo? He's a 45 grade prospect.
However, they need to offload guys who'll need protection in December.
They can't put 6 or 7 middle infielders on the 40 roster.

uglyone - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 12:31 PM EDT (#400081) #
Top wRC+ in the Modern Era:

1. B.Bonds 2002: 244wrc+
2. B.Bonds 2001: 235wrc+
3. B.Bonds 2004: 233wrc+
4. B.Bonds 2003: 212wrc+
5. Vladito 2021: 206wrc+
hypobole - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 12:53 PM EDT (#400082) #
Can't see the Jays not making a couple of moves at least. As long as you have an over 10% chance at the playoffs, you do something. The better the odds, the more a team should be willing to do.

At the very least for morale. Remember Jose's comments after the 2014 deadline? Our young team doesn't need that type of deflation if we're still in the hunt. And yeah, as scottt pointed out, teams will be looking at their 40 man crunch. That's why Tampa gave up a 40FV prospect for a DFA'd reliever (and cash because Tampa) earlier this week.
92-93 - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 01:14 PM EDT (#400083) #
The potential for Adams to turn into Yan Gomes (unlikely) is a bargain for 2.5 years of a controllable arm that the front office likes.

And the only people who whine about prospects turning into something elsewhere are the same people who obsess over the minor leagues and prospect rankings, all while paying little attention to the actual MLB ballclub. This is the last year of Vlad being cheap before he sets an arbitration record (if he wins MVP), and the Jays would be wise to augment their roster. If the process of the trade is good the long term results don't really matter (unlike, for instance, moving Happ for McKinney/Drury, the type of trade that never made much sense). Trading guys outside of your top 10 is not a big deal, it's the price for trying to field a competitive team instead of constantly punting into the future.
hypobole - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#400084) #
Seems Matz is the only covid positive, at least so far. Everyone else's tests were negative.

And per Scott Mitchell the earliest return for Merryweather is late June.
Nigel - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 01:22 PM EDT (#400085) #
As Chairperson of the Adams fanclub, I take umbrage at that! Kidding aside, I've thought that the team needs to do an asset reallocation trade (i.e. the team is long on middle infielders and C's and short on pitching) for some time. So trading prospects from those areas of strength makes all kinds of sense to me.
bpoz - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 01:24 PM EDT (#400086) #
If NYY are in 8th spot like they are now then they are probably sellers. But you never know.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 01:27 PM EDT (#400087) #
In 2016 the Jays were in playoffs contention the whole season. At the deadline, the FO was willing to part with:

H.Rodriguez - 19yr old C-level prospect in A- who has pitched 2.1ip above A+ as of now
G.Chavez - 18yr old rookie ball fringe prospect who peaked at 25ip of full season ball
S.Ratcliffe - injured 21yr old fringe short season prospect who has pitched 1ip since
C.Turner - 25yr old AA reliever that peaked in AAA
D.Hutchison - broken 25yr old who only pitched 45ip the rest of his career
J.Chavez - struggling 32yr old reliever
D.Storen - broken 29yr old who only pitched 75ip the rest of his career


and they were only willing to give up those fringe kids because in all those deals they also got these two kids back that were better prospects than anything they gave up:

R.McGuire - 21yr old C in AA, first round pick & top-100 prospect at start of year
H.Ramirez - 21yr old B-level prospect in AA, who is now a quality 4th OF in MLB






Magpie - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#400088) #
If NYY are in 8th spot like they are now then they are probably sellers.

Nah. They wouldn't be able to bring themselves to do it. It's just not the Yankee Way.

Besides, what do they have to sell? Corey Kluber? Pretty well the whole roster is under control for 2022, either signed or arbitration eligible.
Chuck - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 02:02 PM EDT (#400089) #
This is the last year of Vlad being cheap before he sets an arbitration record (if he wins MVP)

The record for first year arb is Bellinger's 11.5M, and for final year arb Arenado's 26M. Bellinger's mark is definitely in peril, but Arenado's is safe given how heavily the arbitration process considers years of service.

scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#400090) #
Late June is next week.
Obviously, after missing over 2 months, Merryweather will need some time to ramp it up.

Jonny German - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#400091) #
In 2016 the Jays were in playoffs contention the whole season. At the deadline, the FO was willing to part with: (assorted lukewarm bodies)

Is your point that this front office is so smart that they can improve the team without giving up any real assets? Because Grillo, Benoit, and Liriano were all great in Toronto, and the team made the playoffs.
scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#400092) #
Can't see the Yankees selling anything except tickets, but they've done it before.
It really depends on how hard they fall.
Last time, they made bonkers on a couple of relievers.

Jonny German - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#400093) #
Apologies to Jason Grilli for the autocorrect fail.
92-93 - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 03:19 PM EDT (#400094) #
And if you look at the Jays' prospect lists from late 2016 you will see that they amounted to very little, especially if you assume that the Jays would have been reluctant to move the recently drafted Bichette/Biggio as PTBNLs (Vlad obviously wasn't going anywhere). Besides them you're looking at guys like Jansen/Palacios/Murphy/Barnes/Borucki outside the Top 10, and Reid-Foley/Alford/Urena/Tellez/Zeuch inside it. Most of the rest never even had a cup of coffee.

It's one thing to suggest this team shouldn't be interested in moving Pearson for Scherzer, but if the player coming back has some team control remaining and the prospect required is not one of your best you pull the trigger to give your team a better chance of winning the next couple of seasons.
92-93 - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#400095) #
Isn't the purpose of a fancy stat like wrc+ to normalize the numbers so players can be compared across eras? Let's see the Babe on those lists.
hypobole - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 03:33 PM EDT (#400096) #
"And the only people who whine about prospects turning into something elsewhere are the same people who obsess over the minor leagues and prospect rankings, all while paying little attention to the actual MLB ballclub."

There is truth in this. Once a prospect is traded, I've always hoped they would do well not poorly. Part of it is spilled milk, part selfish. Who would want to trade with a team who's prospects all bust?

But teams do strike a balance. AA did the massive 2015 buying spree here, but he had already decided to quit. Wasn't his problem any more. In Atlanta last year, with his starting staff in shambles, his big acquisition was Tommy Milone.

Cashman has taken plenty of heat for his prospect hoarding. Even the biggest wheeler-dealer since prime Dombrowski, A. J. Preller, has kept a tight grip on almost all his top prospects while trading away a large amount of the B and C types."
hypobole - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#400097) #
On the subject of trading Pearson, he was the guy mentioned in yesterdays FG Clemons chat. Twins are dead in the water this season and Jose Berrios is an FA after next year. Clemons feels a deadline deal of Berrios for Pearson would work for both clubs.

Personally don't think another SP is our need right now, but there's still a month and a half to go.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#400098) #
Can't see the Yankees selling anything except tickets, but they've done it before.

You're ight, of course - hey, that's how they got Billy McKinney. Besides Chapman, they traded away Carlos Beltran and Adndrew Miller. Chapman and Beltran were both an expiring contracts (an NBA phrase that I'm surprised we don't hear more often) but Miller still had two seasons left.
Kasi - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 03:53 PM EDT (#400099) #
I don't mind trading a mid level prospect or 3 in order to get a reliever or 2. It doesn't have to be a top level reliever, just someone at the Castro level would be good I think. Rentals are fine too.

Glasnow seems to now have a partially torn UCL and some other injury stuff. I don't know enough about elbow injuries to state if that will be something he'll be gone long term for.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#400100) #
I'm not so keen on selling Nate at this point, even if i can't figure out if it would be selling high or selling low.

But Berrios is good enough to consider trading Nate for.

Prime aged, nice 4 pitch mix, very consistent performer in the higher end of the 3-4 war range over a full season, averages 6ip per start.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#400101) #
and if we're trading with Minny, i wouldn't mind figuring out a way to take their 3B off their hands.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#400102) #
and the beauty of trading for an SP is that it should automatically upgrade your bullpen too.
jgadfly - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:10 PM EDT (#400103) #
Do covid protocols allow for non 40 man roster call ups ? I know that non rostered players can be on the covid taxi squad and that taxi squad players are eligible for play without promotion to/or a placement on the 25 man active roster ( I think ???) ... could a non-40 man roster say Dble A pitcher (scheduled to pitch today) be called up under covid replacement rules for the 10 day duration of the Matz absence ?
Magpie - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#400104) #
Someone the other day (I've forgotten who, sorry) put forward the idea of finding out if Anthony Kay can be turned into another Brett Cecil. (I found the idea intriguing enough that I wondered what had become of the actual Brett Cecil. Let's just say that St. Louis will never sign a relief pitcher to a deal like that ever again.)

While Kay is almost the exact same age Cecil was when he made his last appearance as a starting pitcher, there's one fairly large difference. That was Cecil's 74th start in the majors. Kay has made 6. Cecil had a lot more runway to be found wanting as a starter. That's partially because the team often had a severe shortage of starters back then, and partially because Cecil went 15-7 in his first full season.

Kay isn't going to get that large an opportunity. But I think he gets more than he's had so far. I do think you give this kind of pitcher a real opportunity to either make it or not make it as a starter before you see if he can be useful some other way. (The exceptions are guys like Borucki and Merryweather who have proven to be partially composed of glass and tissue paper.)

I'm sure Ray and Matz like it here, and they especially like that their careers got turned around here. But they're both going to be free agents when this year is over and they have to get the money. They're fools if they don't. They only get one shot at it. (And I'm sure they believe in themselves sufficiently to think they would have straightened themselves out wherever they were. They're professional athletes, it's practically a job requirement.)
Nigel - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#400105) #
Berrios would cost a lot more than just Pearson. Serious question, but why on earth would Minnesota want to trade Berrios this year? Maybe next year if the team is still a tire fire, but Minn was thought to be a potential playoff team 2 months ago.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#400106) #
I say Ray and Matz "like it here." They've never been here. Pandemic days. Everything is so weird.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#400107) #
yeah the difference between cecil and kay for me is that cecil was actually a dominant SP in the minors.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#400108) #
why on earth would Minnesota want to trade Berrios this year?

I would think that for this year and this winter the Twins are going to regard 2021 as just One of Those Things that happens when the entire universe is conspiring against you. In which case the only things they'll have to offer this summer will be their pending free agents: Happ, Shoemaker, and Pineda. Simmons and Cruz.

I have to say that I'm not hugely interested in a 35 year old third baseman under contract for two more years at $21 million. Not when he's been healthy for one season in the past four. Maybe he'll be more durable when he's 36 and 37, but I wouldn't want to be counting on it.
hypobole - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#400109) #
Miggy in 2012 has been the only Triple Crown winner since Yaz in 1967. Joe Medwick in 1937 is the last NL winner.

Could Vlad join that very exclusive group? Dan ZIPS takes a look.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/vlad-jr-could-capture-the-triple-crown/
scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#400110) #
They couldn't get anything for Teixeira, who was done at 36.
They traded Solarte for Chase Headley. Solarted was done at 31.
Beltran brought back Nick Green, Erik Swanson and Dillion Tate.
McCann brought back Albert abreu and Jorge Guzman.
Eovaldi, they released for nothing.
Miller brought back J.P Feyereisen, Clint Frazier, Ben Heller and Justus Sheffield.
None of these have done much.
Chapman brought back Billy McKinney, Gleyber Torres and Adam Warren.
Torres is up to 7.6 WAR, which doesn't sound like much over 4 year.

scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#400111) #
It's either because of injury concerned or when a player runs out of option that a starter becomes a reliever.
scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#400112) #
I would be patient with Pearson. Where's the rush?
He's still a very valuable reliever if he fails as a starter and he's not running out of options.

Glasnow could be done for the year. Partial ULC tear and flexor strain?
Would the Rays pay him 2 years on the IL?

Magpie - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#400113) #
the difference between cecil and kay for me is that cecil was actually a dominant SP in the minors.

Yeah, I'm just not sure what to make of it all. Cecil was indeed really good at AA (6-2, 2.78) in 2008, when he was 21. A year later he was in the majors (the team, correctly I think, didn't pay too much attention to his 1-5, 6.80 mark in AAA - what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.) He'd do some shuttling back and forth between Toronto and Vegas for the next few years before carving out his job in the bullpen in 2013.

Kay was even better at AA (7-3, 1.49) in 2019, but he was already 24 (granted, every pitcher is on his own unique timetable). It's hard to figure out what the two seasons since have done for him. Or to him.
Nigel - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#400114) #
Magpie - that's exactly how I would handle things if I were running the Twins. Berrios is the exactly the kind of guy that teams with current contention windows are trying to find. I'm not trading him until I'm sure my current contention window has closed.
BlueJayWay - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#400115) #
Glasnow has a partial UCL tear and a flexor strain. He's opting to rehab and hope to avoid TJ surgery, but in any case he'll be out a while. Big blow to them, but the Rays always find a way...
scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#400116) #
He strained his arm on May 10 2019 and didn't return until September.
It seems worse this time.
He was at 88 IP after throwing only 111 in 2018, 60 in 2019 and 57 last year.

I think it solves some of the Rays roster crunch problems.

scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#400117) #
Berrios would be an interesting guy to chase as a free agent. Less so as a trade target.


scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#400118) #
Going mostly right bats against Montgomery.
Bo at DH, Semien at short, Panik at 2B, Espinal at 3B, Adams C.

Don't think Biggio is 100%.
He's still wearing that exoskeleton.

Espinal is back because Davis is on the Paternity List.

The Yankees will sit Odor and have Gittens at 1B--Still looking for his first hit.

I hope that Andujar in LF is worse than Gurriel.

hypobole - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#400119) #
Vlad's 22nd last night puts him halfway to everyone but 3 Jays with 64 games played. 98 to go. One more, he's halfway to Canseco, 2 more, halfway to Bell. Jose and his 54 is the only Jay with more than George's 47.

Vlad may do it this year or may not, but it's definitely something to watch over the next few months. I'd put my money on 50 if I had money to put. And it would be no surprise if he passes Jose either.
John Northey - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#400120) #
Vlad is on pace for 56 HR (team record 54 by Bautista 2010), 142 RBI (team record 145 by Delgado 2003), but everyone ignores Bo who has scored 56 so far, pace of 142 (team record 134 by Shawn Green 1999).

Vlad's 697 Slg% would be a team record over Delgado's 2000 664. His 1.148 OPS is slightly ahead of Delgado's 2000 1.134. But in OBP he is far behind Olerud's 1993 473 (at 451 right now, good for 3rd also behind Delgado 2000 470).

No matter how you cut it Vlad is having the best offensive year in Jays history. Only Delgado's 2000 and Olerud's 1993 are close. For 1000+ OPS you also get Bautista 2011 (the year after his 54 HR), and Delgado 2003 (when we all thought the Jays were going to the playoffs again soon...only another 12 years - sadly a rotation of Halladay and pray for rain didn't work well).
92-93 - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 06:14 PM EDT (#400121) #
After the game he played on June 15, 1993, Olerud was hitting .405/.504/.712 with a .402 BABIP. It was fun checking that chase for .400 box in the Star every morning. He had struck out only 22 times in 272 PA, while Vlad has 42 in 273 PA. Would Johnny O have fared so well that season with the defensive shifts we see today?
Nigel - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#400123) #
Ah John Olerud. The man of 16 consecutive +.350 OBP seasons, only to screw that up in his final year:) The thing that always brings me up short when I think of Olerud is that he ended up with significantly more career WAR than Delgado and, depending on which WAR you choose, either slighly more or slighly less career WAR than the Crime Dog. Probably the most underappreciated superstar that ever passed through town.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 07:23 PM EDT (#400125) #
That boy needed to pull the ball more and untap his power!
Magpie - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 07:51 PM EDT (#400126) #
Montgomery averages 2.1 walks per 9, Ryu averages 1.5 per 9. Possible they're getting squeezed?
Eephus - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 08:21 PM EDT (#400128) #
This has not been a consistent strike zone. Iím still not entirely in favor of robo-umps but tonight is an exhibit A for that argument .
Eephus - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 08:24 PM EDT (#400129) #
Or rather, I should say it has been consistent in my level of frustration.
Michael - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 08:26 PM EDT (#400130) #
The Glasnow quote:

"I just threw 80 something innings & you just told me I can't use anything. I have to change everything.

I truly believe 100% that's why I got hurt. I'm frustrated MLB doesn't understand. You can't just tell us to use nothing. It's crazy."

I.e., I don't know how to stay healthy and effective without cheating with substances on the ball that made me become a more effective pitcher once I arrived in Tampa Bay to pitch in the "easy" AL East instead of the tricky NL Central that I pitched in Pit.

The more a bunch of the big name star pitchers scream bloody murder about MLB enforcing the no substances rule, the more I hope they actually enforce it on the teams. I see it as being a competitive advantage for the Jays as I don't think the Jays are near the lead leaders in illegally doctoring the ball today.
Eephus - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#400131) #
Although, this seems like an opportunity for me to gripe about how much I dislike the stupid strike zone box every TV broadcast superimposes now. Maybe Iím on an island with this one (and maybe only because Iíve pitched a lot of innings in my life and so I feel like I have a decent general sense of a strike zone).... I just find the square disruptive to my enjoyment of the game, like Iím being told something I already know or at least am familiar enough with to gather my own perspective.

Anyway rant over. Back to the ballgame. Sorry all
Spifficus - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#400132) #
ďThere was some weird stuff just like the takes and the swings and stuff," said Glasnow, "Thatís probably a better question for them. Ö I donít think I was doing anything, but there could have been some other stuff there.Ē

In case anyone forgot Mr Personal Responsibility Tyler Glasnow on sign stealing and his own performance from his last start against the Jays.
I don't want to see him or anyone get hurt, but he sure does test my empathy.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#400133) #
Agreed on that point, Eephus.

That was a clutch two-out hit by Bichette.
scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 08:46 PM EDT (#400136) #
Strike zone looks fine though.
Ryu is pitching on regular rest and is struggling with his command.
Montgomery seems scared to throw the ball over the plate to hitters 1 through 4 and is missing by a mile.
He's actually getting some generous outside calls.

greenfrog - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#400138) #
Some add-on runs would be helpful here.
jerjapan - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:08 PM EDT (#400139) #
On the subject of cheating.
If MLB / management / ownership are aware of the cheating, and do nothing, the responsibility is on them entirely. 

Why anyone complains about the players in this context is beyond me.  It's like you are unaware that corporations are fundamentally exploitative.   I admit, as a unionist, it feels strange to be like, 'these millionaires are being taken advantage of'.
But that's exactly what is happening, as the billionaires leave the millionaires in the crosshairs. 
Eephus - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:18 PM EDT (#400140) #
Ughhhhh this bullpen. To quote Principal Skinner: prove me wrong! Prove me wrong.
Polite Nate - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:23 PM EDT (#400141) #
Bullpen yips are contagious it sems.
Polite Nate - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:24 PM EDT (#400142) #
Seems, even.
hypobole - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#400143) #
Don't agree at all. Josh Donaldson explained that pitchers have been mixing rosin with sunscreen and pinetar for years and hitters never complained, though it was against the rules. It helped their grip enough to control the ball, especially in cold or wet conditions.

Pitchers were helped somewhat, but it was safer for the batters. It wasn't until they started using ironman competition grips and increasing their spins that it became an issue. So MLB is stepping in.
And the suspensions are with full pay, teams just lose the pitcher for 10 days, so the ultimate punishment is to the team.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#400144) #
Eephus - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:30 PM EDT (#400145) #
Poor Riley Adams. This canít have been a fun inning for a catcher. Ideally he saves at least one of those, but there have been a lot of those.

And another injury of course. I donít even know what anything is anymore...
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#400146) #
It is said that the darkest hour of the night comes just before the Merryweather returneth.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:35 PM EDT (#400148) #
You know, if anyone ever injured an oblique back in the 20th century I never heard about it. I wonder what they were calling it back then.
Chuck - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:40 PM EDT (#400149) #
The oblique never used to be part of the human anatomy. Since it is fairly new, they're still working out the kinks in its design.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#400150) #
If Edwards is injured, he'll make ten pitchers on the IL. which seems uncommon.
Gerry - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#400151) #
Grichuk needs some time off, or he needs to start hitting the ball to right field.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#400152) #
It's not just the 6 for his last 38, it's the four GIDPs in the last 10 days.
Mike Green - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#400153) #
Especially those GIDPs. The one yesterday was worse.
Spifficus - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#400154) #
It's not the cheating that gets me - players will go as far as you allow them, and two steps more. It's the whining. Baseball's been telegraphing this move for about a year, albeit ham-fistedly. To blame the crackdown that hasn't even occurred yet for you having to stop cheating and then subsequently injuring yourself a couple weeks after complaining about the 'weird stuff' and 'other stuff' is richer than a ramekin of crŤme brulee.

I still think MLB-Approved Goop is the answer, and if you get caught using anything else, it's off with your head. It's just a matter of figuring out the logistics.
Mike Green - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#400155) #
Good use of Romano here.
Nigel - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#400156) #
Canít say that I agree Mike. To Magpieís point the other day, Iím not sure Romano can be brought into a game with a runner on first. If the runner doesnít have two broken legs, that runner is likely on third before you know it.
Kasi - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#400157) #
I guess Romano isnít perfect either. Anyway bays will have to come back again but I am not sure they will. Can always hope.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#400158) #
The problem with using Romano if runners are already on base, of course, is that he's so bad at holding baserunners that they're automatically in scoring position.
Eephus - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:03 PM EDT (#400159) #
Maybe I should just stop watching after the sixth inning. Maybe that will shake off the voodoo shark, maybe not.... but itíll help my sanity. Good lord.
Mike Green - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:05 PM EDT (#400160) #
It didn't work, but do like Romano's chances of getting Frazier and LeMahieu better than any other option that Montoyo had. By quite a large margin.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#400161) #
I was actually expecting Wade to steal third, followed by a sac fly.

Chatwood for the ninth? They're not likely to score against Britton and Chapman.
Chuck - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:17 PM EDT (#400162) #
Why is Britton still in this game?
Super Bluto - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:26 PM EDT (#400163) #
Oh. Chatwood. Has it come to this?
Polite Nate - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:29 PM EDT (#400164) #
As far as sticky stuff goes, it feels like this time last month all anyone could talk about was the changes to the baseball, the dead offence, and how this was the new Year of the Pitcher. This has at least pushed the spotlight off of the baseball and onto the players. I agree with Glasnow that this should have been handled in the offseason - this feels like a panic reaction to the terrible offence this year. But I also agree with Spifficus - pick a common denominator substance of choice, and heck put a can of it on the mound beside the rosin bag for all I care, but at least everyone is on the same page.
That said, I thought that sunscreen/rosin was not what they were going to be going after players for?
Four Seamer - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:44 PM EDT (#400166) #
With respect to the sticky stuff crackdown, Iím all for it for aesthetic and safety reasons. However, Iím a bit stunned how badly the players have stumbled into the obvious trap the owners set for them, establishing this narrative of the players being a bunch of dirty cheats right in the lead up to collective bargaining.
Eephus - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:50 PM EDT (#400167) #
Well, this game taught me a couple of things: bullpen meltdowns clearly get under my skin waaaay more than anything else in baseball, and also that I didnít realize I could dislike Aroldis Chapman even more than I already did.

Get em tomorrow. Iíll turn it off after the 6th either way.
hypobole - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:51 PM EDT (#400168) #
Not like they could give umpires mass spectrometers to find out exactly what substance the pitchers are using. Don't disagree it should have been handled earlier. MLB dragged its feet as usual. But pitchers suddenly going cold turkey brought this on themselves. There have been plenty of warning signs of what was coming.
Kasi - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:57 PM EDT (#400169) #
While the troubles with the bullpen are very easy to spot one thing that is happening this year thatís a bit harder to track down is the Jays are one of the least clutch teams in baseball on the batting side. Despite having top five offensive stats theyíre nearly bottom five in clutch stats. Now generally that stat isnít terribly predictive itís more just a measure of whatís happened so far.

But itís not helping in these close games they could have won or prolonged if they could get more hits in those situations. The two home extra innings games against Tampa and several other games over the last few weeks come to mind. I think most of this is just bad luck but some of it might be itís just a young team. Probably easier to fix (just get Springer back) then the pen but itís not helped our record in these close games.
BlueJayWay - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 10:57 PM EDT (#400170) #
The Jays are 10-19 in games decided by one or two runs, 23-13 in games decided by 3+
Nigel - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 11:01 PM EDT (#400171) #
First hundred games of 2015 all over again. It isnít helping things that Ryu has only been so so (taking innings into account as well as RA) through this tough schedule stretch.
scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 11:04 PM EDT (#400172) #
Public opinion does not factor in MLB labour negotiations. This is not the government. Nobody will vote the owners out of power. Most of the money comes from TV rights, not attendance. 

One of the issue is the lack of balls in play. Another issue is unfair advantage. Pitchers have been using pine tar, lotion and whatever since forever, but over the last few years, some orgs have used the rotation metrics to determine what substance produces the highest revolutions, as opposed to whatever felt good to grip. Just a few teams cheating means those teams have more success than the others, but every team cheating means a lot of long boring games with no balls in play.

Should they wait until the season is over to enforce the rules?
What if they had found out about the Astros banging their trash can in June?
Would it had been OK to wait until the end of the season to amend the rules?
Get it over ASAP.

The balls are coated with mud. There is a resin bag behind the mound. Those are the legal substances for everyone.



scottt - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 11:06 PM EDT (#400173) #
Should have thrown McGuire in there for Castro.

greenfrog - Tuesday, June 15 2021 @ 11:23 PM EDT (#400174) #
I think we may need to get used to the idea that Ryu is in the decline phase of his career. He has been an excellent SP in recent seasons, but during the rest of his contract he may fall into the category of ďgood, ďabove average,Ē or even (say it ainít so) ďaverage.Ē Which is fine, especially if other Jays pitchers emerge as front of the rotation starters.
scottt - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 05:12 AM EDT (#400176) #
Ryu was good enough for a 2 run lead after 6 innings.

Adams is not used to catching Castro who needs a lot of blocking behind the plate.
The Yankees still have a strong bullpen.
Grichuk is colder than ice and keeps hitting into double plays.

Buffalo is a Yankees town, as you'd expect.

greenfrog - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 07:47 AM EDT (#400177) #
From mlb.com:

"A Game Score of 50 is considered 'average,' while a Game Score of 40 is deemed to be "replacement level." Game Scores in the 80s and 90s are widely regarded as impressive, and scores of at least 100 are exceptionally rare."

Ryu's game score was 49.
Chuck - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 08:00 AM EDT (#400178) #
Montoyo, the unfailing optimist, showed major frustration in last night's post-game interviews, even uttering bleepable language about how the media has been second-guessing his bullpen choices. The man is only human and his frustration is well-founded, of course. Lloyd Braun showed us that you can only get away with saying "serenity now" for so long.

This bullpen brings to mind the Terry Adams days. I had to look it up. It was 2004. Now that was a brutal bullpen. Remember Kerry Ligtenberg, nicknamed Lighter Fluid? Remember Kevin Frederick and Michael Nakamura? Yeah, neither do I.

Jonny German - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 08:08 AM EDT (#400179) #
The only thing I remember about Nakamura is that his name was spelled Micheal. Odd.
Chuck - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 08:10 AM EDT (#400180) #
Back to the 2004 bullpen... I count six guys who would never again pitch in the majors after 2004.
  • Dave Mauer
  • Adam Peterson
  • Jason Kershner
  • Michael Nakamura
  • Kevin Frederick
  • Bob File

Two guys hung on to pitch in 2005, though did little more than collect a paycheque.

  • Kerry Ligtenberg 9.2 IP, 13.97 ERA
  • Terry Adams 13.1 IP, 12.83 ERA

Have we seen relievers on the current squad whose careers might end this year? I'd say there are at least a couple of candidates, though today's massive bullpens will open doors like never before. It's a difficult life making a career in pro baseball.

Chuck - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 08:11 AM EDT (#400181) #
The only thing I remember about Nakamura is that his name was spelled Micheal.

Good memory. I have just spelled it incorrectly twice. Or rather, correctly. His parents spelled it incorrectly.

greenfrog - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 08:23 AM EDT (#400182) #
Mychal Givens agrees with you.
Chuck - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 08:26 AM EDT (#400183) #
Chatwood probably earned himself some fresh rope with last night's performance and with Castro's audition for higher leverage usage not having gone well. I find it frustrating when the broadcast team, when not on mute, could be heard to say things like "Montoyo needs Chatwood to be the guy he was at the start of the season again". What they don't acknowledge is that level of performance is simply not sustainable (unless you're Mariano Rivera and it's the post-season).

Before the wheels fell off for Chatwood, his line was: 17 IP, 8 H, 5 BB, 24 K, 0.53 ERA.

It will be interesting to see where Chatwood lands, finding a middleground between his two extremes.

Chuck - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 08:32 AM EDT (#400184) #
The Bo Bichette watch continues, as he edges towards almost a full season's worth of career at-bats. With 629 PA now, his line is 296/340/526, 30 HR, 6 WAR. That'll play.

But that swing, man, it's so violent. Hope his obliques are strong (now that we know this is a thing you can injure).

Paul D - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:07 AM EDT (#400186) #
I'm pretty strongly with Glasnow on this one. This is a really transparent attempt by the owners to pit player against player and fans against players... again. Baseball cannot get out of its own way when it comes to telling the public that the sport is corrupt, full of cheaters, etc. I too would like to see a higher emphasis on balls in play, but you do that by announcing, in the offseason, that there's only one approved substance for improving your grip. You don't have random umpire checks and random suspensions to punish people for something baseball players have been doing for 100 years (and in at least one case, getting into the Hall of Fame because of it).

I think we're far too quick to brand players who moved from rosin to sunscreen to spider tack as cheaters, when for a long time no one cared. The issue came up last year, and some hitters started commenting, so just change the rule, but please,, Manfred, stop telling the world how awful baseball is. Baseball is beautiful, but it often doesn't seem like the people in charge feel that way.
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:15 AM EDT (#400187) #
Bichette's AB against Britton was exactly what you want to see- save for the outcome.  He swung at strikes, didn't swing at balls and on a fine 3-2 pitch from Britton, he didn't try to do too much but hit it right at Judge.  Too bad that he missed the 3-1. 

BBRef has his most similars as Nomar Garciaparra and Yogi Berra (!). It's true that he doesn't look like Berra, doesn't swing the same way; doesn't play the same position, but he shares the ability to hit balls above the strike zone and below the strike zone out of the park.   And he has a similar ability to make contact on pitches in the zone.  Garciaparra was of course a consistently great player from age 23 to age 29, and pretty clearly on a Hall of Fame track until a wrist injury derailed his career. 
Petey Baseball - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:23 AM EDT (#400189) #
I remember all those 2004 bullpen guys well, except for maybe Mauer. Nakamura was a soft tossing righty with a side armish delivery. I seem to remember his first few appearances being fine because batters seemed flummoxed by the arm angle. After that, as mentioned, he was lit up and never heard from again.

Lighter fluid. Wow. He had a couple good years with Atlanta
as a closer before the Jays. Obviously Ricciardi was banking on that.

2004...bad year all around. Crappy grey angry bird uni's...and the bizzare and tragic final day of the season where Rob Faulds did the game alone due to John Cerutti tragically passing away the night before. It was just a horrible horrible year on so many fronts.
Nigel - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:31 AM EDT (#400190) #
Not just on a Chatwood, but the narrative around the pitching is, unsurprisingly, a little off kilter right now. For the year, the Jays are an above average run prevention team (4.29 to 4.40). Before the season started, I wouldnít have given you good odds of the team being a better than average run prevention team. Between the harsh regression from the unsustainable start to the season and the recent timing of the RA, the perspective on the pitching staff is what it is. But Iím not sure this staff has a whole lot more to give in the general sense.
Paul D - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:40 AM EDT (#400191) #
Kevin Frederick is the guy I have no memory of.

Bob File...I have strong memories of him, but no idea why. I thought he might be Canadian, but he's not. He had a good 2001
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:43 AM EDT (#400192) #
Kerry Ligtenberg was the quintessential replacement player, who appeared at Spring Training in 1995.

The Soap Box Score starring Buck "Naked Truth" Martinez has become my favourite guilty pleasure.

Petey Baseball - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#400193) #
I too remembered File as Canadian. The Blue Jays did have a righty reliever in that era (or maybe a bit before) that was Canadian (obviously not Paul Quantrill). The name escapes me.

Frederick I recall as being short and stocky righthander that the club was high on, but was injury prone.

Peterson I remember being the arm they sent to Arizona to get Gibby's favorite all time player Shea Hillenbrand.

Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:35 AM EDT (#400194) #
I have been racking my brain for weeks to come up with a first-class A1 nickname for Vladdy.

Well, I eventually considered the title of Messiah. But no, that is a bit much.

Then, I came to Vladdy of Nazareth. Alright, getting warmer.

Finally, an epiphany: The Prince of Piece of Hitting.

Petey Baseball - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:38 AM EDT (#400195) #
Oh and I forgot the little lefty Jason Kershner. I recall his 2003 being much better than his 2004, like many of the Jays that year. There wasn't much turnover from the previous year, since they had surprised with 86 wins in '03 and their roster was relatively young and promising.

Another bad memory from '04 was that it was Carlos Delgado's final season in Toronto. He's always been my pick as greatest Blue Jay ever.
jerjapan - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:41 AM EDT (#400196) #
Ligtendberg did 'appear' in 95, as a replacement player.
Personally, I have zero problems with any replacement player.  The economics of the game have just been so biased against non-elite players for so long, as in, always, you get low pedigree minor leaguers being paid like camp counselors.
You'd have to have been a naive idiot to be in that situation and say no to a possible big league contract.  

This is an interesting connection to the topic around cheating though. 

Doug 'old man yelling at clouds' Smith in the Star recently referred to 95 as the 'scab' year.  Scab is a super loaded term.  To me, as a proud union guy, it is applied to members of the same social class, relatively.  Not the same economic conditions, but towards people who are relatively similar to you. 

Elite players and minor leaguers live in different worlds.  Our current crop of major leaguers, with their hugely powerful union, are doing nothing for minor leaguers.  And they aren't really doing anything significant around social justice, another common union mandate, historically.  They are simply protecting their 'privilege' in the common parlance.  So when the owners do the exact same thing to the players in the context of 'cheating' - they punch down - I have very limited sympathy for the players.  Both are the 'scabs' in these scenarios - selling out their fellow workers.

This is not a league filled with people who make me think they are 'worthy' of being so prominently in the public eye.  I can think of many artists in all kinds of fields, many athletes and journalists, even some academics and politicians, who 'deserve' to be considered worth listening to.  So, to me, when some privileged ballplayer whines about whatever privileged ballplayers whine about, I say, don't listen.  But hold them accountable - owners, players, MLB. 

This sport needs to step up. 

wheh.  Sorry.  I promise I will stop ranting, but I find the intersection (ughh, yes, I used the word intersection) of sports and politics in this 'woke' era just fascinating.  I actually think the rapid transformation towards 'progressive' aspects to sports leadership and management in some aspects almost promising. 

For real though, I would love to hear what you guys think.  I learned to shut up about politics a while back, but this topic is perfect for this thoughtful community. 
scottt - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 11:01 AM EDT (#400198) #
Well, there is the pandemic. So, we haven't had a normal season since 2019.
Glasnow and Cole are 2 guys who were highly touted prospects but didn't live up to their expectations.
They both turned into elite players by moving into organizations where they learned to use new substances.
That's not something from 100 years ago. Bauer exposed this by using these types of substances openly so everyone could see the effects. No different than Mike Fiers coming out, but Fiers did this in November. Bauer was documenting his experiments during the season.

Glasnow will be the 9th pitcher from Tampa on the 60IL. The other guys are not there because they had to stop using foreign substances. Cole signed for a record contract. Glasnow is making 4M. He could be a non-tender candidate now.

Right now, I'm just eager to see if the Tampa pitching will regress to average over the next months.

MLB does not need permission from the Players Association to enforce the rules.
There is really nothing random about the umps checking every pitcher during the commercial breaks.
Random is what I would call penalty calling in hockey, or the judgment of the strike zone.

uglyone - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#400203) #
"Not just on a Chatwood, but the narrative around the pitching is, unsurprisingly, a little off kilter right now. For the year, the Jays are an above average run prevention team (4.29 to 4.40). Before the season started, I wouldnít have given you good odds of the team being a better than average run prevention team. Between the harsh regression from the unsustainable start to the season and the recent timing of the RA, the perspective on the pitching staff is what it is. But Iím not sure this staff has a whole lot more to give in the general sense."


Yeah that's the thing IMO - things have worked out about as well as could possibly have been expected in the rotation, both performance wise and health wise.

Expecting a positive regression in the bullpen at both aspects, without expecting a negative regression in the rotation, is probably wishful thinking.

Overall the pitching is at least as likely to get worse than get better, and maybe more likely too.

The good news is that the hitting will almost certainly get better. Vladdy is a legit breakout, and there's only one other guy hitting surprisingly well and that's Semien. Meanwhile Springer and Kirk are injured and all of Biggio Gurriel Jansen Tellez are hitting well below projections.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#400204) #
TLDR: I would definitely be trying to target a legit front rotation SP this deadline, and count on the bullpen being upgraded by the additions of Stripling, Pearson, and all the injured guys.
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#400205) #
For real though, I would love to hear what you guys think.

I am fairly reluctant to breach the seal of sociopolitical conversation on Batter's Box. However, the matter of Roberto Alomar's banishment evokes some thoughts.

Alomar is the Blue Jays' only true Hall of Fame player and his individual legacy has now vanished from our cathedral. Well, what about Ty Cobb? We all know his misdeeds. In fairness, the Tigers should erase his name. And what about Joe Cronin and Tom Yawkey? The Red Sox should likewise expunge those offenders.

Me Too is a movement that I certainly support. If Alomar is guilty then it is impossible to defend him. I just want to know why Mike Tyson remains popular all over the airwaves. The corporate media must answer for that.

Related: I remain betrayed by the neutrality on Roy Halladay's Cooperstown plaque. Yes, even if those were his true wishes. Now that Alomar is evidently unworthy, there are exactly zero honest-to-goodness Hall of Fame Blue Jay players to celebrate... Except for the current first baseman.

uglyone - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 12:08 PM EDT (#400206) #
"I think we may need to get used to the idea that Ryu is in the decline phase of his career"

Or maybe his spinrate has mysteriously decreased?
uglyone - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#400210) #
"Montoyo, the unfailing optimist, showed major frustration in last night's post-game interviews, even uttering bleepable language about how the media has been second-guessing his bullpen choices."

A manager's job involves evoking confidence and calm, imo. This is not a good look.
scottt - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#400212) #
Ryu on 4 days of rest: Game Scores of 59, 56, 55 and 49.
On 5 days of rest: 62, 70, 68, 76 and 52.
On 6 days of rest: 37 and 27.
On 10/99 days of rest: 44 and 56.

I think you just need to keep him with one--and only one--extra day of rest.

Nigel - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#400213) #
uo - that's exactly my feeling. This team was built to win last night's game 7-6 not lose it 6-5. They need to get Springer and Kirk back and hope that they can pound their way into the playoffs.
92-93 - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#400214) #
The Yankees got Aroldis Chapman for basically nothing, traded him for a top prospect to the Cubs, and then signed him long term. Neither team cared that his girlfriend alleged he choked her and that he was steamed enough to fire 8 shots into a garage door. "We Latin people are loud when we argue," Chapman said. "Sooner or later we forget, right? They (the fans) love him." said Steinbrenner. That same year the Mets brought back Jose Reyes after he was suspended for choking his wife and slamming her against a glass door. Despite numerous allegations against him, the Twins fly Kirby Puckett's retired #, and David Ortiz wore #34 as a tribute to him. When Kobe Bryant was inducted into the HOF he was celebrated, and there wasn't much talk about his alleged sexual assault that he settled out of court with money. The list goes on and on.

Meanwhile in Toronto, Roberto Osuna was ran out of town and the Jays are trying to erase any association with Roberto Alomar. Make of that what you wish.
scottt - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#400215) #
Hopefully next year's team will be built to win 7-3.
That will be pretty boring to watch after all this.

scottt - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#400217) #
Montoyo said that he's using these guys because that the guys he has.
If anything, that's a call to Atkins to get him someone better.

uglyone - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#400218) #
"Garciaparra was of course a consistently great player from age 23 to age 29, and pretty clearly on a Hall of Fame track until a wrist injury derailed his career. "

Iirc he was likely a PED guy.
bpoz - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#400219) #
J Berrios is having a good season this year. 192IP 3.84 ERA in 2018 and 200 IP 3.68 ERA in 2019. Moving to the AL East from the AL Central probably weakens his results.

Maybe we still go get him. Durable arm.
hypobole - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 01:51 PM EDT (#400221) #
I was wondering yesterday about Osuna because he had a similar injury to Glasnow's. So I checked. He apparently had a showcase 3 months ago. Don't know how it went, but he's pitching in the Mexican league now.

Rogers is a corporate entity and I'm assuming backlash hits harder than it would to Steinbrenner or Crane in Houston.

What Yunel did here pales in comparison to Osuna, Chapman or Reyes. But AA still ran him out of town pretty quickly.

Speaking of AA, he has a huge problem of his own with Marcell Ozuna. He probably won't get off as easily as others, because at least one officer actually witnessed part of the assault. Liberty Media is also corporate. Ozuna has 3 more years on his contract and AFAIK, there's no precedent for voiding it.

hypobole - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#400222) #
"Iirc he was likely a PED guy."

The Red Sox uniform was a dead giveaway.
Magpie - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#400226) #
in Toronto, Roberto Osuna was ran out of town and the Jays are trying to erase any association with Roberto Alomar.

I would suggest that one reason might be that the entire Canadian political spectrum rests in a somewhat different place. Our conservative politicos generally pay at least lip service to such notions as socialized medicine, rights of women and minorities, and various other things that American conservatives don't seem to view with the same enthusiasm. It makes for a different kind of fanbase, and the organization has to take it seriously. Women go to baseball games too, and every woman I knew was outraged that the Jays had signed Jose Canseco back in the day. They were spitting mad about it, and they didn't give a damn how many home runs he was going to hit.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#400227) #
"The Red Sox uniform was a dead giveaway."

scottt - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#400229) #
It's probably faster to list the teams that won't be looking for starting pitching in the offseason.


christaylor - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#400230) #
No one will know Halladay's true wishes, unfortunately, but he signed a one-day contract to retire with the Jays, which shows his feelings at that time. Perhaps the team made missteps in between or Philly did something right. After watching the documentary on him I wondered if his opioid use began with the Jays (pure speculation). If true, I could see reasonable resistance from his family for his going into the HoF as a Jay.

Evaluating history takes time of course. Cobb's legacy has been softened in recent biographies. In 1930 he threw out the first pitch at a negro league game. His racism during his competitive lifetime is vile.

Yawkey way was renamed to its original name of Jersey Street.

There's no reason to defend Cobb (or Alomar or Tyson or Yawkey or...) but there are valuable lessons in exploring how flawed humans can be and how they can learn and grow. Hopefully, Alomar can make that step.
scottt - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#400234) #
Sounds like Zeuch/Thornton for Thursday.
BlueMonday - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#400235) #
ďI too remembered File as Canadian. The Blue Jays did have a righty reliever in that era (or maybe a bit before) that was Canadian (obviously not Paul Quantrill). The name escapes me.Ē
Yah, Petey Baseball, I couldnít remember the righty Canadian either, as the Jays have had mostly left-handed relievers over the years (Quantrill, Spoljaric, Sinclair, Francis Ö.). So, looking it up, the only one I found was Scott Richmond from 08-09 and 11-12.
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#400236) #
Personally, I believe Kobe Bryant was innocent of those charges.

Roy Halladay was always my favourite. †Brandy Halladay not so much. †Far be it from me to speak ill of a grieving widow, so I will leave it at that.

A year ago, it was Marcell Ozuna's wife who was arrested and charged with battery against him.

hypobole - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 06:30 PM EDT (#400237) #
Personally, I believe Kobe Bryant was guilty of those charges.

And yeah, the Ozuna's relationship has been toxic.
greenfrog - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#400238) #
The Jays have activated Murphy. Edwards Jr. to the 10-day IL.
Nigel - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 07:56 PM EDT (#400240) #
Biggioís OBP feels lost in the wastelands in the bottom part of this lineup right now. Whatís the point of getting on in front of McGuire? I think he should probably be batting 5th in this lineup. Alternative choices would be 9th and 2nd.
Kasi - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#400241) #
Sure you can bump him down one more and have him be the leadoff guy for Semien and Bo. I don't think it matters that much once Springer returns though. The main thing is they don't want to have all their LHB stacked up. Biggio just isn't good enough to be at the top of the lineup. Ideally I think he should be somewhere in the bottom 3 or so but I don't think its that big a deal.

Also I like this new Stripling, staff ace here now.
Chuck - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 08:35 PM EDT (#400242) #
Stripling going all Stieb on Panik, with a blatant WTF after that ridiculous piece of fielding.
Gerry - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 08:52 PM EDT (#400243) #
It looked like Stripling apologised to Panik between innings, at least Stripling was doing a lot of the talking.
Chuck - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 08:54 PM EDT (#400244) #
Pete Walker asking Stripling about his obliques?
Eephus - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#400246) #
Knew I shouldíve left after the sixth inning. Iím speechless at this point.
Chuck - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:00 PM EDT (#400247) #
CB Bucknor has been adding a lot of spice to the game tonight, for both teams, presumably calling pitches with a magic 8-ball.
Thomas - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#400248) #
You hate to say one call changed the game, but once Stripling fell behind 2-0 on that borderline call, you could see a fastball in the meaty part of the plate coming and, with Sanchez up, the result was not good.
Chuck - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:08 PM EDT (#400249) #
DeGrom out after 3 perfect innings. Everybody is broken!
Gerry - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:08 PM EDT (#400250) #
So Dolis to the IL and Zeuch activated tomorrow. Saucedo survives?
Chuck - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:10 PM EDT (#400251) #
Saucedo is the teamís Herb Washington, only here to pinch-run.
Nigel - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:19 PM EDT (#400252) #
All true about that call to Sanchez, but advanced scouting should have dictated that discretion was the better part of valour where Sanchez was concerned in this series.
Chuck - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:24 PM EDT (#400253) #
Sanchez is the new Gardner, and I say this one night after Gardner did his Gardner thing.
greenfrog - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:35 PM EDT (#400254) #
Is Tellez the new Drury (amassing a large amount of playing time despite not hitting)?
Chuck - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#400255) #
Did Murphy just come from a Mardi Gras parade?
uglyone - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#400256) #
Don't tease me blue jays.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:55 PM EDT (#400257) #
Santiago Espinal our 9th inning pinch hitter against Chapman!
uglyone - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 09:59 PM EDT (#400258) #
Perfect.
Chuck - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#400259) #
Vlad looked safe but his reaction said out.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#400260) #
He's safe.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:03 PM EDT (#400261) #
That's a whiff.
Chuck - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:04 PM EDT (#400262) #
Somebody cue up the Benny Hill music.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:04 PM EDT (#400263) #
Both bad calls. Jays should be up.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:06 PM EDT (#400264) #
I miss Gibby.

Lose your sh!t on them Montoya.
lexomatic - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:07 PM EDT (#400265) #
Re playbat third1) I know they dont overturn stuff u less theres conclusive evidence.
2) last replay angle made Guerrero look REALLY safe like way in before the tag3) Urshela's knee and hand seemed to be blocking access to the base. I thought recent ish (last season? Year before even?) had made it so blocking path to the base was a nono for safety.  Or is that just home collisions and 2nd base steals?  Or again a case of inconsistent application of the rules?
Like I get why this wasnt overturned, and it would've been a tough angle hut it looks really blown.And then sportsnet app crashes and i cant watch the last 2 outs of an intense inning/game
BlueJayWay - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#400266) #
One run loss.....
BlueJayWay - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:14 PM EDT (#400267) #
Vlad was safe at first. Gurriel missed that ball, it wasn't a foul.
Eephus - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:23 PM EDT (#400268) #
This is not a site for profanity (so I will strongly restrain myself)... but GOOD #$%#$#$#$%$%$%#$$&%%$ GOD. I have so many things to seriously rant about endlessly in those last fifteen minutes of a baseball game.

But I won't. This season is making me crazy(ier) already and dwelling on... whatever the F* that was ain't gonna help. Three things: I so wish I'd never complimented Grichuk figuring something out (he's been a totally useless blackhole of a hitter since), that was a serious young player blunder by Vlad Jr. (never break for home until you know it's getting past the pitcher, I think the moment got him), and Gurriel definitely swung and missed that stupid goddamn pitch... apparently Sanchez is such an awful defensive catcher that in this situation his sheer butchery lapped itself.

All right I need to calm down. The neighbours might be worried.



uglyone - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:30 PM EDT (#400269) #

Agreed. Completely embarrassed about it. Apologized to Joe individually and the team. Will never happen again

Young ballplayers, be better than this. https://t.co/bjUyVLulv1

— Ross Stripling (@RossStripling) June 17, 2021
BlueJayWay - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:30 PM EDT (#400270) #
I don't know what to say. They have the second best run differential in the division, fourth best in the AL. The underlying stats point to being a much better team than their current record.

This feels so much like the first half of 2015, where they either win solidly or lose a one run heartbreaker.
greenfrog - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 10:37 PM EDT (#400271) #
The AL East competition is tougher now than in 2015. Harder hill to climb from .500 midseason to the postseason.
Kasi - Wednesday, June 16 2021 @ 11:21 PM EDT (#400274) #
Part of that BlueJayWay is that our team sucks pretty bad at hitting in clutch or high leverage situations. I think we've seen it all. The bats do well early on but late innings in close games they mostly choke up. Teoscar is an exception but too many of our bats just suck in these situations. It puts even more pressure on our pitchers to be perfect because we can't rely on our bats to get a key hit when that would win the game for us. Now I agree the bullpen has its issues, but its been made worse by our bats not giving them much help late in games.
scottt - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 06:42 AM EDT (#400275) #
This is really good baseball to watch, if you have a strong heart.
3-7 in the last ten game despite great starting pitching in every game.

On the bright side, still 8.5 games out of first place.
They're about to hit the easy part of the schedule.

Chuck - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 08:07 AM EDT (#400276) #
Grichuk's OPS+ is now down to 106, exactly his career rate. A move out of the 5-hole is probably a good idea. Nigel recommended sliding Biggio into that spot and I agree, at least until Springer arrives and causes the batting lineup to again be reconfigured.

Bill James once argued for looking at a batting order as two halves, each requiring table setters and table clearers. Biggio seems an apt fit as a leadoff man for the lineup's bottom half.

scottt - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 08:39 AM EDT (#400277) #
At least, Biggio is not a big double play guy, he's grounded into 3 this year, a high mark for him.
Grichuk has grounded out into 10 double play this year.
greenfrog - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 09:32 AM EDT (#400279) #
"On the bright side, still 8.5 games out of first place"

I don't really see this as "the bright side." 8.5 games is a lot as the Jays approach the midpoint of the season, and even if Tampa has lost Glasnow for a while, they have a surging Franco (hitting .326/.384/.618 in AAA at age 20) and other prospects to bolster their team at some point.

And the Jays are 7.5 games behind Boston, who may be getting Sale back in a few weeks.

Three teams to pass in the division in those circumstances, plus competitive WC teams in other divisions, makes this a challenging situation for the Jays, not an upbeat one.
krose - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 09:55 AM EDT (#400280) #
One of the things I love about this site is the way you experts use data to predict the ďhome-rangeĒ of who a player is. Isnít Grichuk just classic for coming back to who he really is? At the plate these last few days he has that tense, high stress look, indicating he feels like he has to accomplish some big thing. And then he rolls over a pitch, hitting it to the left side, and into a DP. Charlie has a bit of the same look.
scottt - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 09:56 AM EDT (#400281) #
The Jays have over 20 games to play against Buffalo and Detroit.
Meanwhile, the stronger Boston and NYY are, the harder it will be for the Rays to run away with it.
Obviously, the Jays can't reach the playoffs winning 30% of games, but they shouldn't be losing games 3-2 against Baltimore.

Cole wasn't able to get many strikeouts but it worked in his favor as he lasted 8 innings.


Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 10:07 AM EDT (#400283) #
The Blue Jays were 10-5 at home, then lost 6 in a row to finish 10-11 playing in Dunedin.

The team is 3-4 in Buffalo, with tonight's game on tap, followed by a 5-game road trip.

And then 16 of 22 games will be at Sahlen Field, taking us well past the All Star Break.

So this is it. Take advantage here. Compel the brain trust to raise the bet, not check or fold.

(It will always be Dunn Tire Park for me.)

Nigel - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 10:42 AM EDT (#400286) #
You canít blame some fans for seeing the early season Grichuk (reduced k% and all) and thinking of later stage career development like Bautista and, to a lesser extent, EE. We watched it first hand after all! But itís really rare, particularly when it requires a fundamental improvement in plate discipline. In the grand scheme, Grichuk turning back into, well, Grichuk isnít the problem (although he should really be batting lower in the lineup). He is, after all, a capable regular on a second division team or a good 4th OF on a contender. After wild performance swings (both positive and negative), that is also about where Gurriel appears to be headed, so the Jays have options when and if Springer ever shows up.
electric carrot - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#400287) #
You know what's worth noting. This team has been on the road now forever. The Florida crowd was antagonistic and Buffalo is mixed at best. I think what they have done so far this year is quite amazing given that adversity.
92-93 - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#400288) #
Since April 13th:

.250/.354/.426 128pa 13r-4hr-12rbi 37k:18bb 1gdp = Biggio
.269/.286/.420 204pa 19r-6hr-21rbi 41k:6bb 3gdp = Gurriel
.247/.270/.460 222pa 24r-12hr-34rbi 52k:6bb 10gdp = Grichuk

It's a mistake to put too much stock into the first two weeks of the season when filling out your lineup. The early season narratives are typically just reactions to tiny sample sizes and a result of the need for content. In a healthy Jays lineup Biggio should bat 6th in front of Gurriel/Grichuk/Tellez/C, and perhaps even 2nd.

bpoz - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#400291) #
It is hard to handle the disappointment of the Jays and many of the farm teams ( NH and Dunedin records).

This is building a contender growing pains. In the 80s, 1984 I think, Tippy Martinez picked of 3 Jays to save the game. Len Sakata was the catcher. That counts as a learning experience in my books. I cannot remember how they got to 1st base in the first place.
scottt - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#400292) #
Buffalo is in New York state, so the Yankees will be home there.
Alternative is to playing the Yankees games without spectators.
Yeah, just raise the ticket prices for those games because of high demand. 

scottt - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 11:37 AM EDT (#400293) #
Give me Kirk and Moreno in the catcher spot and somebody with power filling at third and this going to be a very good lineup for quite some time.
bpoz - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 11:45 AM EDT (#400294) #
I can see Kirk and Moreno at C soon enough. Kirk is ready and Moreno has burned 1 option.

Third base has generally been hard to fill. Gruber, Sprague and Donaldson for 3 good years. The player traded for EE was not here very long. EE failed at 3B. Many short term 3Bs. This years 3B is nothing great.
krose - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#400295) #
Looks like growing pains of building a contender to me as well. For the present I concur that Biggio should be higher in the lineup than Grichuk or Gurriel. Hopefully the team contends for a wildcard this summer, but there are a lot of things that have to go well. Whether they contend or not I hope to see a couple of new faces who might make the team better later in the season. Maybe Pearson, Merryweather, Borucki, Smith. Springer and Biggio will help strengthen/lengthen the lineup. Maybe Smith could hit more than Espinal and provide good defence at third. With an easier schedule and a strengthened lineup the team might look more compelling.
bpoz - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 12:07 PM EDT (#400297) #
We wait 1 month and then become small buyers. I don't see us becoming big buyers no matter how hot we get in the next month. If we still have a mountain to climb then I am ok with being big sellers for purposes of strengthening the future.

Of course it is Atkin's decision.
Petey Baseball - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#400300) #
I had been meaning to post about Grichuk for a few days now, so I'm glad Eephus mentioned him. His nose dive has completely gone under the radar due to the conversation (rightly so) being about the bullpen.

I'm not the one to run numbers myself (I'll just wait for someone else better to do it) but it appears Randal's hot streak came in the beginning of the year 0instead of August. He's looked like the same old guy at the plate the past month or so.
John Northey - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 12:39 PM EDT (#400305) #
The MVP race is interesting...

In this corner... batting at a Bondsian pace - Vlad: 207 OPS+ over 282 PA, 3.7 bWAR. 4.2 fWAR

In the other...playing like Babe Ruth on the mound and at bat Shohei Ohtani: 3.9 bWAR 157 OPS+ over 254 PA, 159 ERA+ over 47 IP. 2.3 H fWAR, 1.1 P fWAR = 3.4 fWAR total.

Quite the battle. Should be fun to watch for the rest of the year especially with our rooting interest in Vlad.
John Northey - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#400307) #
Grichuk's quick stats from BR...
Last 7 days: 133/133/133 - 267
Last 14 days: 146/163/271 - 434
Last 28 days: 235/250/461 - 711

When your OPS is a meh Slg% you know you are in trouble. When it is a meh batting average you are in deep dog do.
greenfrog - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#400309) #
Grichuk goes through decent stretches of strong performance and also long stretches of poor or mediocre performance. It all seems to add up to about 1-2 WAR per year (sometimes a bit more or less). Heís probably not going to deviate too much from that baseline at this point.
uglyone - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#400310) #
You know - there's no real reason why Springer shouldn't be rehabbing at DH in MLB.
Waveburner - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#400312) #
You know they tried that, right UO? But sure, go for round 2. Something something definition of insanity.
Paul D - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#400313) #
Waveburner, do you think DH'ing at the MLB level is more taxing than playing CF in AAA?
John Northey - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 02:04 PM EDT (#400314) #
I think the advantage of having Springer do this in AAA is if anything goes wrong he is still on the 10 day IL and can come off it quicker, but if he comes up then it is a fresh 10 days. Plus if he has issues mid-game you pull him without fear of losing a ML game.
Cracka - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#400315) #
I think Springer is coming back as early as tomorrow. He's playing his third game in a row right now. He has seemed near 100% for several days now. He's a ~80-minute drive away in Rochester and could meet the team tonight and fly with them to Baltimore.
scottt - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#400316) #
Why the rush? He hasn't hit at all in AAA.
If he has to DH and can't hit, that's not a positive.
If he can't play the outfield back to back, he's not 100%.

Bergen is off the 10IL and down in AAA to get it back.

Rays have acquire Mike Ford from the Yankees for cash considerations.
How weird. Will fill Glasnow's spot (60IL) for now.

No Thornton for today's game. Zeuch/Payamps/Saucedo maybe?


uglyone - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#400317) #
Waveburner I don't see how DHing in MLB is more of an injury risk than AAA.
uglyone - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#400318) #
"Why the rush?"

Er....because the season is swirling down the drain?
Cracka - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#400319) #
"He hasn't hit at all in AAA."

Five minutes after you posted this he smoked a line-drive RBI double. Thanks!!!
Waveburner - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#400320) #
UO is it your position that all rehab assignments are pointless? Or just this one case?
ISLAND BOY - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#400321) #
" The Jays have 20 games to play against Buffalo and Detroit."

I know you meant Baltimore, Scottt, but for a moment I thought you meant the Sabres. They suck at hockey so they'd be even worse at baseball.

I'm liking the reconfigured version of Ross Stripling. It wasn't good to show up your teammate, even if he deserved it, but I like his competitiveness. With his recent good outings and the addition of Manoah, the rotation is looking solid. ( Now one of them will go down with an injury after me saying this.}
scottt - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#400324) #
Stripling apologized. Publicly. All these guys are close and invested in the results.

This team is not in position to sell at the deadline no matter what happens.
If they appear out of it, they almost need to go get someone who will still be there next year and keep giving it all till the end. To set expectations for next year with a strong finish, if nothing else.

uglyone - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#400326) #
Rehab for a pitcher makes sense. For a hitter not so much.

Rehab imo is more if you don't think the player can improve the team until he's 100%. Myself I'd rather have a rehabbing Springer DHing over the other options.
scottt - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#400328) #
If he's sore and need rest, you just waste a bench spot.
If he's struggling with the bat, then he won't be helping the team.
Tellez had an OPS 1.262 for the 3 games he was down there.
Biggio went 1 for 11, but he didn't miss a couple of months.

Rehab for a hitter makes sense if the guy hasn't played except a couple of games in May and a couple in spring training.
Ji-Man Choi played 6 games in AAA and he's a first baseman, not a center fielder.
This isn't the NHL playoffs.

uglyone - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#400329) #
Why are you comparing Springer with tellez and biggio?

And Choi playing 6gms in AAA while his team was far away in 1st place is nice and all but likely no difference to his performance now and probably hurt his team's performance then.
Magpie - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#400330) #
With respect to Springer DHing with the big club instead of rehabbing at AAA - I would imagine the team is thinking we tried it that way already, it blew up in our faces, and we lost him for another six weeks. This time we're going to be sure he can play CF, and we'll do that by ramping up his game activity in stages.
Nigel - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 05:06 PM EDT (#400332) #
I guess I don't really agree that the team is in no position to sell no matter what. I agree that if there is even a whiff of a playoff chase afoot then selling would send a terrible message to the young core. But, given that the team is already almost certainly chasing a one game play-in spot, if they are out of things come the deadline, they'd be crazy to not consider trading Semien, Ray and/or Matz for a king's ransom (if they aren't interested in resigning). Being out of things at the deadline isn't an impossibility given where things are at right now.
Spifficus - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#400333) #
Yeah, I don't want another spin on this merry-go-round. Rehab assignments for players that have missed prolonged time has several advantages, as everyone's pointing out. You're putting them in an environment where their only focus is getting them ready to play MLB ball. If he isn't quite right one day, there's less pressure to keep playing him. If he needs to back off for a day or two, you're not burning a roster spot while you wait. Also, he gets an opportunity to get his timing back at the plate. We saw this tried already this year, and giving it another go sounds like a good way risk the rest of Springer's season.
uglyone - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#400334) #
They can "ramp up his activity in stages" at the MLB level just as well as at AAA. The only question is whether it helps or hurts the team to do so.
hypobole - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#400335) #
Pumping to call up some 31 yr old hitting 167/167/250 in AAA seems a bit unusual.
scottt - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#400337) #
No contender will trade away any players that will be useful in the short term.
These guys could already bring back draft picks anyway.
Look at past trades. The package the Jays gave away for Price, for example.
None of those guys would improve the Jays over the next 4-5 years.

You think you'll get a player comparable to Vladdy for 2 months of Semien?
Ray and Matz would bring what? A pitcher who's doing great in the low minors?
If the Jays are selling, who's buying? Boston? Cleveland? Houston? Oakland?
Teams with a closing window are not dumping the few impact prospects they have.
There's just a few teams with the prospect capital to tempt the Jays.
I can't see Tampa sending their top prospects to Toronto for a rental.
The Padres don't need help.

Spifficus - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#400338) #
No, that's not the only question. There are competing interests between trying to win the immediate game and making sure he's healthy and able to play. That leads to phrases like "Healthy enough to DH," which is a paraphrase of "We're taking added risk to get his bat in the lineup, and are hoping he doesn't reaggravate his injury." We've been down that road already.
uglyone - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#400340) #
He is playing actual baseball in AAA btw.
scottt - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 06:24 PM EDT (#400341) #
That's the whole point, actually.
The fact that he was DHing hints that he's not ready  yet.

They're in Miami on Tuesday, I think, that would be a good time for a return.

uglyone - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#400342) #
It means he's ready to DH.
scottt - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 06:45 PM EDT (#400343) #
No it doesn't. He's not there to DH.

Teoscar on the paternity list, Jared Hoying activated.

I guess Hoying's only been in Buffalo for a week or so.
Decent numbers in a short sample. OPS 1.172. 32 year old. Bats left.

Leaside Cowboy - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#400344) #
The player traded for EE was not here very long.

Scott Rolen is oft-mentioned as the one player of recent vintage who simply had no desire to be in Toronto, full stop, with dramatic emphasis.

He was traded to Cincinnati, just 350 kilometres from his hometown of Evansville, Indiana. I recall something about a family member being sick; not an unusual consideration.

Toronto was his only short tour outside the National League. The artificial turf is frequently a complaint. The Blue Jays were in the doldrums at that point. Cito was the hard-boiled manager. Ricciardi was dismissed. Beyond those typical gripes, was there actually something else?

Magpie - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#400345) #
We've been down that road already.

That, surely, is the key concept to grasp here. They're not going to do what they did last time. They've had the definition of insanity explained to them at some point.
hypobole - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#400346) #
I'm dumbfounded.
uglyone - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#400347) #
A) that's not a definition of insanity
B) what happened last time is they brought him back too early. He wasn't ready to DH then, no matter what league it was in. Let's all pray that they have learned their lesson and not repeated that same mistake, because if they have, he'll injure himself again in AAA just like he did in MLB.
electric carrot - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#400348) #
Ok -- that's got to be the nadir of 2021 blue jay baseball.
blu-j - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:32 PM EDT (#400349) #
Just turned on the game to see the Jays run into amazingly dumb triple play.  Watching it unfold, all I could think was, "What exactly is Bo doing?  Oh, he's keeping the triple play possibility alive by hanging out between 2nd and 3rd."
It's hard to watch these kinds of mental mistakes...especially against the !#@$ing Yankees.
Nigel - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:32 PM EDT (#400350) #
I'm only watching on Gameday, but there has to have been an elite level of bad baserunning for that Gameday description to have occurred.
Paul D - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:32 PM EDT (#400351) #
I like Montoyo, but plays like that, in a week like this, are the kind of thing that leads to a manager firing
Nigel - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#400352) #
Paul, I didn't see the play, but your point has been on my mind for the past day or two. Rightly or wrongly, its on the manager to keep this train on the tracks. There's been a faint whiff of it coming off the tracks recently.
Spifficus - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:38 PM EDT (#400353) #
Ok, I'm not sure if I'm in the mood to watch any awkward comedy tonight.
Paul D - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:38 PM EDT (#400354) #
Nigel, they just had another gaffe in the top half of the inning. This isn't pretty
greenfrog - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#400355) #
"the nadir of 2021 blue jay baseball"

The list of candidates for that honour is getting long:

-Montoyo/Espinal's bunt strikeout against Tampa
-Chatwood's meltdown #1
-Chatwood's meltdown #2
-Sanchez's passed ball (not called by the ump)
-Springer re-injuring himself
-Montoyo press conference meltdown
-Triple play

That's just quickly off the top of my head.
Spifficus - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#400356) #
And for ALL of that in the past 2-halves of an inning, it's somehow still only 1-0.
Magpie - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#400357) #
Amazing. Comically bad baserunning by Semien and Bichette to take the team out of a promising inning. Bad defensive plays, with people already on base, by Zeuch and McGuire. And they're only down 1-0?

Fortune smiles upon these boys!
greenfrog - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:51 PM EDT (#400358) #
The Yankees broadcaster called it "unbelievably bad baserunning" by the Blue Jays.
electric carrot - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:54 PM EDT (#400359) #
The list of candidates for that honour is getting long:

I just meant -- we've reached bottom. Only up from here. Not that it was the worst moment.
Spifficus - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:59 PM EDT (#400360) #
That somehow feels like an understatement, greenfrog.

What amuses me most during all that hilari-bad was that the 'best' pitch he threw during the inning was the full count slider he hung so bad he got Judge to swing under it with the bases loaded to strike him out.
Super Bluto - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 07:59 PM EDT (#400361) #
The triple play might have been the low point for the Jays season so far but it was an even lower point for the simulcast experiment. Anyone listening on the radio still has no idea what happened.

On the plus side, I now have a greater than ever appreciation for a radio broadcast's contribution to my enjoyment of the game.
greenfrog - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 08:00 PM EDT (#400362) #
"Nadir" - yes. Got it. Let's hope that the season is uphill from that point forward.
Spifficus - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#400363) #
electric carrot, don't tempt fate - there can always be more bottom.

I think any radio crew would just say "It was a triple play. Trust me, you don't want to know the details."
Paul D - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 08:04 PM EDT (#400364) #
Anyone know anything about Jared Hoying? I'm assuming it'll be a really short stint with the team, but I can't remember ever hearing about him
Magpie - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#400365) #
Anyone know anything about Jared Hoying?

Last seen in the majors with Texas in 2017, he spent the last three sesons in Korea. The first two were good, but he hit .194 in 2020 and was released. No one in North America was interested this spring until a couple of weeks ago when the Jays called. Played 7 games in Buffalo, hit 3 HRs, one of them against Zack Britton.
vw_fan17 - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 08:42 PM EDT (#400366) #
OT: quite a crazy couple of days, aside from the action on the field..

Wednesday, celebrated my 50th birthday with wife + kids + M-I-L. Phone calls from parents / siblings back in Canada.

Today, 8:00 am, got a layoff notice after nearly 13 years with the company. Today, by 5:00 pm had already had 3 separate interviews (for 2 separate positions) in other groups in the same company (Synopsys) with probably 2 more such discussions to happen by noon tomorrow. Wasn't really expecting the layoff notice but not 100% surprised, timing (see 2nd paragraph) sucked, but was also not expecting to possibly have a transfer lined up before the week is out. OTOH, the severance package isn't bad, AFAICT - I've never been fired / laid off before...  Sometimes life throws you a curveball :-)
scottt - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 08:45 PM EDT (#400367) #
I was shocked to see Grichuk hitting cleanup.
I guess Montoyo isn't paying too much attention at what his hitters are doing right now.

Contact play or not, if the leading runner goes back to the bag you do the same and don' t move unless he's caught in a pickle between 3rd and home or they throw the ball away. This isn't synchronized swimming. It's no big deal if you end up at second with 2 outs.

I think the Yankees are the worse baserunning team in baseball, so their broadcast team should know all about it.

Thomas - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 08:48 PM EDT (#400368) #
A belated happy birthday vw_fan17!

And I'm so sorry to hear about your layoff. The timing of that must have been so awful. However, I'm really pleased to hear that the early signs are promising that you'll land on your feet. That's great news!
Magpie - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#400369) #
I've never been fired / laid off before

Gosh. I'd managed both while I was still a teenager. But I was a precocious little sod...

Happy birthday!
uglyone - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#400370) #
"I just meant -- we've reached bottom. Only up from here."

Optimist.
Gerry - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#400371) #
I am happy for Saucedo that he got into a game. The Jays have already had two call-ups who didn't get into a game before being sent down. If they had three it would probably be some kind of record.
Magpie - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 09:18 PM EDT (#400372) #
we've reached bottom

Never challenge "worse" as Matthew E used to say. It can always get worse.
Spifficus - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#400373) #
I don't think I've ever seen a catcher so unable to do the catching part of the job. Sanchez makes all his pitchers look like a knuckleballer.
Four Seamer - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#400374) #
The proclivity of the modern manager to cycle through his bullpen in search of the one guy who doesnít have his stuff never fails to astound.
Chuck - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#400375) #
I don't think I've ever seen a catcher so unable to do the catching part of the job.

Sanchez always makes it seem like he is playing the position using a Kleenbox box for a mitt.

Way, way, way back in the day, Cliff Johnson was, as Charles Barkley would say, just turrible. He didn't catch a whole lot in his career, unlike Sanchez who is a fulltime catcher, but teams just kept trying to squeeze a few catching starts out of him, year after year. By the time he landed in Toronto, he wasn't even allowed to play first base let alone ever catch again.

Chuck - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 09:55 PM EDT (#400376) #
Should we send someone around to Eephus's place? This is usually the time of the night where he loses it.
uglyone - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#400377) #
Spifficus - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#400378) #
I'm glad those days were before my baseball-watching time, because if I were a fan of his team watching that, I'd be hoarse and with a mountain of broken TVs.
Nigel - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 09:58 PM EDT (#400379) #
The ďoneĒ guy who doesnít have it? As if.
Four Seamer - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#400380) #
Was it absolutely necessary to lift Saucedo once he faced his three batters? How did Montoyo think this bullpen was going to somehow record ten outs without yielding a run? Surely he could have coaxed at least another out of him.
uglyone - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#400381) #
https://youtu.be/FGLYeHF1I_Y
electric carrot - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 10:03 PM EDT (#400382) #
"Never challenge "worse""

I'm going to call the triple play the bottom moment in the worst section of the season in one of the worst series of the season.

I will commit to bottom generically.

I am an optimist about the team.

I do expect you all to remind me when this turns out to not be true. But pls wait till the next series starts.
Spifficus - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 10:05 PM EDT (#400383) #
This team can really dig deep.
Magpie - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#400384) #
Remember when Castro had a 1.80 ERA? I do, it was Tuesday. Good times!

I wonder if the fact that Detroit put him on waivers was a warning sign.
Four Seamer - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 10:36 PM EDT (#400385) #
C.B. Bucknor strikes again. At least that time his error was reversible.
uglyone - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 10:39 PM EDT (#400386) #
Iirc we were bang on .500 at about the 100gm mark in 2015, with great underlying numbers.

We decided to trade away these prospects to bolster the rotation, bullpen, and multiple additions to the position players:

(With career MLB stats)

M.Boyd (24): 147gms, 5.3ip/gm, 112era-, 106fip-, 107xfip-
D.Norris (21): 136gms, 3.5ip/gm, 103era-, 100fip-, 103xfip-
J.Hoffman (22): 78gms, 3.5ip/gm, 126era-, 120fip-, 121xfip-
M.Castro (20): 255gms, 1.2ip/gm, 95era-, 108fip-, 111xfip-
J.Cordero (23): 83gms, 1.0ip/gm, 105era-, 97fip-, 101xfip-
J.Brentz (20): 33gms, 1.0ip/gm, 46era-, 86fip-, 99xfip-
J.Tinoco (20): 30gms, 1.5ip/gm, 80era-, 155fip-, 128xfip-
J.Labourt (21): 6gms, 1.0ip/gm, 102era-, 120fip-, 182xfip-
Rasmussen (25): 30gms, 0.9ip/gm, 183era-, 109fip-, 111xfip-
A.Tirado (20): ---
N.Wells (19): ---


So basically, all for one solid but unspectacular starting pitcher.
John Northey - Thursday, June 17 2021 @ 11:02 PM EDT (#400387) #
Good review uglyone - after all the 'AA drained the farm' cries after 2015 was done, Boyd is the only one we'd really want back. Hoffman is now doing OK in Cincinnati - 100 ERA+ in 10 starts averaging just above 4 IP per start - -1.4 bWAR lifetime. Boyd 7.9 bWAR lifetime. Castro 3.4 lifetime. Norris 5.4 since leaving. Cordero 0.3 WAR. Brentz 1 WAR (all this year, was released since the trade), Tinoco 0.4, Labourt 0.1, Rasmussen -1.1. 18.5 bWAR ignoring the negative guys, mix in negs and you get 16 WAR. I'd happily trade 16 WAR of value (or even 18.5) for that great fun 2015 season. Boyd will add more value I'm sure, but he is no ace - if he is your #1 then your team has troubles. Hoffman at best is a meh starter, more an opener.

This reminds me of why we shouldn't worry when prospects are traded. For every Noah Syndergaard (14.9 WAR but has missed all of 2020 and 2021 due to injuries and most of 2017 as well) you get dozens of Labourt's. Now, that isn't saying to go all Expos 2002 (traded Jason Bay, Guillermo Mota, Scott Strickland, Bruce Chen in assorted traded, then the killer one - Cliff Lee, Brandon Phillips, Grady Sizemore and Lee Stevens for Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew). If only we had a GM like AA back then - someone who'd have drained Montreal's farm for a few shiny items. Instead we had JR Ricciardi. Sigh. Better than Gord Ash, but that isn't saying much. I suspect every team other than Cleveland was drooling when they saw that trade.
85bluejay - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 01:56 AM EDT (#400388) #
I mentioned at the start of the 13 game stretch aganist contending teams that we'd get a good idea of the 2021 Jays and I think we have.
StephenT - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 02:19 AM EDT (#400389) #
Anyone listening on the radio still has no idea what happened.

My (imperfect) memory of the triple play in bottom 1st:

-Semien on 3rd, Bichette on 2nd, none out (of course)
-Vlad hits the ball between pitcher and 3B
-Semien starts to run home, so Bichette starts to run to third
-pitcher fields the ball
-Semien runs back to third, Bichette already close to third
-pitcher throws to first (Vlad out)
-1st baseman throws to shortstop (near 2nd-base), Bichette is still closer to third-base
-Semien starts to run home so Bichette can go to third
-shortstop throws to home
-Semien in rundown between third and home
-Bichette doesn't want to go to third so Semien can get back to third
-Semien yells to Bichette to take third
-Semien tagged out in rundown
-fielder throws to third and Bichette is out sliding at third-base
(something like that, officially I've read "1-3-6-2-5-6")
scottt - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 06:12 AM EDT (#400390) #
Castro has good stuff and doesn't walk everybody.
He's just inexperienced and unsure when to go with what works for him and when to go with the hitter's weakness.
He should try to stay 50-50 with the slider and the fastball so the hitter has to think about both pitches.

Judge stealing Biggio's homer was a turning point.
Saucedo got his 3 outs, but I didn't get the impression he knew where the ball was going.
Always hard to judge for a lefty with the camera's placement. 
He said he was a sinker ball pitcher but that now he's coming straight at the hitters.
Zeuch was spiking his change up on the ground and wasn't close to the zone with his slider.
The defense wasn't sharp behind him and he made an error when fielding a comebacker.
Only gave up 3 runs when going through the rotation twice in 3 innings.

What killed them was the grounding into double--or triple--plays.
It's a game in which they should have scored more than 4.
It's irritating and unlikely that every time Boon pinched hit they scored.

greenfrog - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 07:53 AM EDT (#400391) #
I still think this is a good team when healthy. They have the fourth-best run differential in the league, even with all the injuries.

But at some point they seemed to hit a tipping point with the loss of Springer, Kirk, and all the bullpen arms. (It didn't help that some regulars like Gurriel Jr., Tellez and Jansen went in the tank with wRC+ in the 48-73 range.) As a result, they became "just good enough to lose" many games. Some bad luck and questionable managing decisions made the problem even worse.

Whether they can make up all the lost ground is an open question. There are other good teams in the division and league and the Jays are currently well off the pace.
Leaside Cowboy - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 08:11 AM EDT (#400392) #
Last night, I experienced a vision of the future:

1. Kevin Cash will be abruptly relieved of his duties as manager.
2. Bobby Valentine will be hired, only to be fired in short order.
3. Tampa Bay will make overtones about Charlie Montoyo.
4. Charlie will confess to Atkins & Shapiro that it is his dream job.
5. A rare compensatory trade for a field manager will take place.
6. John Gibbons will be rehired by the Toronto Blue Jays.

Leaside Cowboy - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 08:35 AM EDT (#400393) #
Do I have it right? Earlier this week, 92-93 hit the milestone post number 400000 on Batter's Box.
scottt - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 09:09 AM EDT (#400395) #
Kirk was barely there and McGuire has been better than anyone should have hoped.
Springer not being there only started to hurt when Grichuk stopped hitting in June.

Out of the gate, they only had Ryu and Matz as reliably starters.
Ray came back, Stripling figured it out and Manoah was promoted and suddenly they have a strong rotation.
And then the pen fell apart.

On the bright side, they are still 8.5 back as they Rays keep losing.
Now it's just a matter of not fumbling the ball defensively and putting the ball in play.

greenfrog - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 09:16 AM EDT (#400396) #
8.5 games back of Tampa, 8.0 games back of Boston, 2.5 games back of New York, behind six teams in the WC race, and currently below .500.

And the competition may be on the verge of adding some star-level players like Franco and Sale.

It's true that the team is objectively in a bad place. But there is always hope that they can crawl back into the race.
bpoz - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 10:52 AM EDT (#400398) #
I am also disappointed with our record this year. I am encouraged by the quick development of the rebuild. I know that somehow the AL East will always be a tough division. During the rebuild and while in the window, I expect good years and bad years. Win 97 games and win 80 games.

I consider the rebuild going quite fast:

2018 after the trade deadline we promoted Tellez, Gurriel, Jansen and McGuire. Teoscar had a good 2018 with the bat but his defense was bad. Both his bat and defense have improved.

2019 We suffered 95 losses. But Vlad, Biggio and Bo were promoted. I think the 2nd half was better than the 1st. Also serious steps were taken to create financial flexibility.

For 2020 we used the extra money to sign Ryu. Most likely to at least avoid another 95 loss season. We made the playoff because the qualifications became very easy. Atkins bolstered the talent at the deadline to help us make the 8th spot.

2021 we added Springer, Semien, Ray and Matz. Vlad took a huge step forward. Manoah as well by making the ML rotation. 4 starts so far. So Vlad and Manoah deserve praise. No other prospects are knocking hard on the door. Moreno in AA is all I see. Many various pitchers like Merryweather and Borucki are getting opportunities.

I am fine with opportunity for kids in the 2nd half. Placing 7th to 9th is fine for this year. 6th is good and 10th is bad. This team is exciting and frustrating.
uglyone - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#400399) #
"I am encouraged by the quick development of the rebuild."

This is year 6. And the best player in the rebuild was inherited.
bpoz - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 11:03 AM EDT (#400400) #
Yes Vlad was inherited. Fantastic signing by AA.
scottt - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#400401) #
Are the Yankees in year 1 of a rebuild? Year 2?

jerjapan - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#400402) #
Was it absolutely necessary to lift Saucedo once he faced his three batters?

Not to my mind, but I wasn't watching.  Saucedo had retired 3 straight with the top of the order, three straight righties, up next, 2 out in the inning.  Give Saucedo a shot at LeMahieu with 2 outs and see how he does, because he can't be any worse than the other options right now.  Castro is ready to take over if he implodes, but Saucedo is capable of more than one inning, and he's been throwing strikes all season. 

This pen needs strikes, and it needs innings.  It's not like the team is oblivious to the struggles of the pen.   What's wrong with Montoyo laying down the law a bit - I'm gonna go with guys who throw strikes first and foremost?  Reward any org soldier types who are throwing strikes and see if you can catch lightning in a bottle. 

I hear the name Jason Grilli raised in relation to the topic.  Grilli was acquired for nothing, essentially, and had a pretty good run - 46 games - for us in 2016.  He turned back into a pumpkin in 2017, his last season in the bigs. 

Sure, he's not Taylor Saucedo.  But Grilli was plenty fungible, and he's considered one of the bullpen success stories. 

Castro and Payamps were Saucedo-ish guys to start the year on the Jays depth chart.  Has Montoyo seen them enough that they have legit earned his trust, or is this SSS?  If we wanted certainty, we needed to sign, say, Liam Hendricks, rather than a bunch of reclamation types. 

If we commit to the 'fungible' pen model, which makes plenty of sense to me, given some of the buy low finds we've seen from this FO, we need to recognize the volatility inherent in that approach, and have the flexibility to pivot. 

To me, it feels like the team has committed to a development model which means Hatch remains a starter, and fringe guys off the 40 man roster will not be considered to protect from a 40 man roster crunch.  I'm all for maximizing resources, but would anyone care if we had to drop Zeuch, or Mayza, Beasley or Bergen?  Any one of those guys might not get picked up by another team.  Heck, I'd be comfortable dropping Dolis personally - 31 BB in his 45 IP as a Jay?  This is the bar for our pen??

Why add a guy like Allgeyer if he's never going to get to pitch?  No way does Saucedo get into a game unless it's a bullpen day following a long period of bullpen meltdowns. 

Ex-Bauxite Tammy Rainey has a great deep-dive on the subject,
https://bluejaysnation.com/2021/06/18/assessing-the-bullpen-realistic-june-trade-targets-and-some-names-still-around-in-free-agency/
Commit to Hatch out of the pen.  Sign John Axford or David Robertson.  Give innings to Saucedo, or call up Snead.  Overton's been great - perhaps his improved velocity and new approach are for real.  Anything. 

Time to try something different.  Aside from Romano, Chatwood and Thornton, this whole pen is fungible. 
tercet - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#400404) #
Kirby Snead will not save the bullpen, he in fact will get destroyed and give up lots of runs while being a terrible human being.
Spifficus - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#400405) #
I feel like I've missed something, tercet. Is it the act of giving up runs that will make Snead a terrible human being, or was there an incident of some sort that I didn't notice, or is it just general ickyness?
hypobole - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#400406) #
I just cancelled The Athletic. I follow the 3 Toronto sports. Koreen/ Murphy are excellent, as are the Leafs guys.

The Jays coverage though has gotten to the point that I'm not even reading half the articles. Not much of a human interest guy, though Lott's work on that front I actually read and enjoyed. Stoeten was Stoeten, but at least he did both the Jays and the minors. McGrath seems nice enough but her articles usually don't tell me anything I didn't already know. I asked her last year to try to do some minor league stuff, she said she'd look into it. Hasn't done a thing since on that front. As far as the MLB guys, Stark and Bowden I'm not even reading.

I cut off my nose to spite my face with milb TV when they went from 3 to 2 teams. Don't drink any more, but the cost of a 1 month subscription there is about the cost of a 12 pack I think. 6 Dunedin games in Bradenton will be televised at the end of July, so I'll re-subscribe in a couple of weeks to watch those, the Bisons and Fisher Cats, and some C's games, since 2 teams in their league do televise their home games, and all televised games already played this year are archived.

Curious what other Athletic or milbTV subscribers thoughts are.
GabrielSyme - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#400409) #
Aside from Romano, Chatwood and Thornton, this whole pen is fungible.

If Mayza is fungible, so too is Thornton. There's nothing wrong with Mayza except some bad sequencing and poor babip luck.

The problem is not so much that we keep Castro, Mayza and Payamps around. It's that we haven't attempted to find anyone useful to fill in the final spots in the bullpen. The internal options like Saucedo, Bergen, Allgeyer and Beasley are underwhelming - and in Saucedo and Allgeyer's case, haven't really been tried. That said, a lot of this is injury-related. I think a bullpen with Romano, Murphy and Borucki towards the back should be respectable. Add Merryweather and it could even be good.
tercet - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 02:05 PM EDT (#400411) #
Based off his past social posts he is a terrible human being, he thinks by deleting his social posts no one will notice, but people have noticed (myself including).
But in actual baseball is just a loggy who will get destroyed by righties, and not help our baseball team.
bpoz - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#400414) #
That is a good pen GabrielSyme but we had all of them on our roster to start this year. Murphy had the stuff IMO but Merryweather really had little history (13 innings of mediocrity in 2020). I am not disagreeing. Tammy Rainey did a very good 30 day history of the pen blowing up.

Therefore Atkins did a good job of adding bullpen arms. Yates, Phelps and Chatwood were counted on and failed. Maybe Atkins gets 2 more good veterans. Dolis and the not added 2 make 6 experienced pen arms that could have been useful. We don't need to dip into Cole and Milone with the above 6. We still have Romano and Borucki. 2 more veteran arms would have helped. Maybe no 40 man room? When do Merryweather, Bergen and Mayza get their turn? Too complicated for me to figure this out during the off season. And what are Kay and Hatch there for?
Thomas - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#400415) #
I find the Athletic to be excellent value for my money. I like McGrath's work, but I understand not everyone feels that way. I agree that Lott was excellent and it was nice when he and McGrath supplemented each other. I don't miss Stoeten and I'm glad that people flooding McGrath's articles with comments about she's not Stoeten and how they want Stoeten back seems to have quieted down.

However, I read Rosenthal, Stark, Eno Sarris and Brittany Ghiroli on general baseball matters. Rosenthal is still very good at what he does and I enjoy Stark's Weird and Wild columns. Sarris does really interesting work with pitchers and pitches and Ghiroli was a really strong beat reporter, who is now doing an absolutely fantastic job uncovering and investigating harassment and discrimination in baseball, such as the Mickey Callaway story.

A number of teams have excellent beat reporters, who I read on occasion.

Additionally, I read material on other sports, from Murphy and Koreen on the Raptors, Josh Kloke on TFC/MLS, several other reporters on the NHL/NBA/NFL and there are a number of excellent reporters on English/European soccer, from tactics to team coverage, if that interests you.

All of that to say, I find the Athletic to be good value in relation to what I can read and I am already renewed for 2022.
Thomas - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 03:19 PM EDT (#400416) #
I feel like I could do this repeatedly for the next 15 minutes, but I should also have singled out Katie Strang, who does excellent work on harassment and discrimination in sports, such as minor league hockey.
scottt - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 03:36 PM EDT (#400418) #
They still did  pretty well with the international market since, especially considering the penalties incurred for signing Vladdy.

Kirk, Gurriel, Moreno, etc...

Nigel - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#400420) #
I love the Athletic's Raptors coverage and NBA coverage in general. Same goes for their Liverpool and Premiership coverage. Their NHL coverage is also pretty good but varies pretty widely depending on the local team. I find their MLB coverage (and the Jays coverage) to be the weakest of their offerings.
hypobole - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 04:03 PM EDT (#400423) #
Blimy, didn't realise we had so many footy fans.
uglyone - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#400426) #
I was just holding on the subscription for some specific hockey stats but thejr euro coverage has been so good I'm back on board.

(Forza azzurri!)
jerjapan - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#400430) #
If Mayza is fungible, so too is Thornton.
I appreciate the comment Gabe, but disagree.  Thornton has been worth 1.9 fWAR career for us, from that season in the rotation, but he is a fringey starter, not a fringey reliever like Mayza, who is 2 years older, with an fWAR of 0.8.
Sure, Mayza has been marginally more effective in his current role than Thornton, but guys who can be decent starters in a pinch just have more value. 

I do agree that this pen could be good with the guys injured, if they can stay healthy.  A pen with nothing but volatile relievers will implode like this sometimes though.  I quite literally see us as the sort of team that needs to add an impact reliever in the offseason.  Once you start winning games regularly, you want to limit that volatility. 
Jonny German - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#400435) #
"I am encouraged by the quick development of the rebuild."

This is year 6. And the best player in the rebuild was inherited.


They made the playoffs in 2016 and in 2020Ö. which 6 years are you counting?
hypobole - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#400437) #
The "alternative facts" 6 years.
uglyone - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#400439) #
In 2016 they were already trading for prospects (McGuire, Ramirez) and shedding salary.

Please do not refer to 2020 as "making the playoffs".


Jonny German - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#400441) #
The Jays traded a failed prospect for a pitcher who pitched to a 147 ERA+ In 10 games, 8 starts, helping them make the playoffsÖ. but youíre counting against them that they also got a couple prospects in the deal?
hypobole - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#400443) #
Not to mention the Villar, Walker and Ray trades. Giving up prospects for expiring MLB contracts. Like no other rebuild.

Getting a fringe religion vibe with this. Believe what you want to believe. But don't come to my door telling me to believe what you want to believe
uglyone - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 07:59 PM EDT (#400452) #
"but youíre counting against them that they also got a couple prospects in the deal?"

Absolutely.

What the hell are they doing using any trade capital whatsoever to add prospects at that deadline?
jerjapan - Friday, June 18 2021 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#400453) #
Well, Connie, Bergen and Rodriguez were sorta prospects, for sorta improvements. We even got cash for ray. Last year was more roster reallocation than anything
Spifficus - Saturday, June 19 2021 @ 06:43 AM EDT (#400471) #
Thanks tercet. I figured I must have missed something.
GabrielSyme - Saturday, June 19 2021 @ 12:41 PM EDT (#400478) #
Those are good points with respect to Thornton's overall value. I'm not sure, however, that the Jays still see him as a potential starter - iirc, he wasn't competing for a starting job in spring, and even as a long reliever, he hasn't gone more than 2 1/3 innings. He's gotten a couple starts as a 2 inning guy, but they really haven't tried to stretch him out.



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