Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
I like dropping into the baseball boards at FanHome and ESPN now and again, if only because there's almost always one thread about trading Carlos Delgado. Usually it's along the lines of "what culd we get for Delagdo" (if you've been to these boards, you know the ones I mean), and is founded on a quick glance around baseball for a team with an opening at first base, a lot of money and some pretty good prospects. These days, those two teams are usually identified as the Indians and Dodgers.

Setting aside for a moment that each team has alternatives available (an inexpensive Ben Broussard in Cleveland, a has-to-play-somewhere Todd Hundley in LA) and that cheaper free agents (McGriff, Floyd) are on the market, these idle and ultimately harmless discussions overlook some important facts: (1) Delgado has a no-trade clause, (2) he has it for a reason and he'll use it, (3) his contract, even most of it, is virtually untradeable, and (4) Ricciardi doesn't intend to deal him.

It's this last point that's the most significant, and which is brought out more fully in a Sun column this morning. JP makes the point that Delgado is the only player in the lineup capable of filling the cleanup spot right now, and that what he brings to the table -- triple digits in runs, RBI and walks -- is not that easily replaceable. He's a pillar in the lineup around which players like Phelps, Wells and Hinske can lean and develop. The Jays are a better team now, and will be a better team in three years' time, by keeping Delgado happy and on the payroll than they would be otherwise.

Now, of course, JP would be even happier if he had Delgado's services for about $9 million less per season, and if he had the complete flexibility to trade him if a stupendous offer came along. And he also wouldn't mind if Carlos were a little more devoted to defence and baserunning. But I'd like the local Blockbuster to carry a copy of the original Die Hard, not the two execrable sequels. Life's not perfect, so you do what you can with what you have. Accepting that his salary is unchangeable and unmoveable till mid-2004 at the earliest, JP realizes that he has an asset in Delgado and he's going to make the most of it.
The Anchor at First | 14 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Dave Till - Thursday, December 05 2002 @ 12:37 PM EST (#101687) #
Carlos Delgado has two big albatrosses around his neck, neither of which he's responsible for:

1) His big contract, which isn't his fault (they offered him the money, why shouldn't he take it?).

2) Everybody's expecting him to hit like he did in 2000, when he was at his peak and hitting a bit over his head.

Carlos's problem the last two years is that everyone's figured out that he's good. They never throw him strikes any more, so he draws a lot of walks. And you can't hit lots of home runs when they're only throwing you pitches that are low and a foot outside. It can't be fun watching everybody pitch around you day after day after day, no?

His late-season "resurgence" last year was mostly due to Baltimore's throwing a lot of kid pitchers out there. The kids were too dumb to pitch around Carlos, and were challenging him with fastballs. And, if you challenge Carlos with a fastball, he'll hit it into Windows Restaurant. (To put it another way: the Oriole pitchers all have a bad case of Scott Cassidy Disease.)

Ricciardi and Tosca seem to realize that even the 2002 version of Delgado has value. If you pitch around Carlos, Josh Phelps comes up with lots of runners on base. Yummy!

And heck, it doesn't bother me that Carlos isn't devoted to baserunning. If he were more devoted to baserunning, he'd probably be pulling hamstrings. I'd rather see him hit homers and ground rule doubles, and thus get to travel the bases at his own speed. :-)
_Jan Jansen - Thursday, December 05 2002 @ 01:41 PM EST (#101688) #
His late-season "resurgence" last year was mostly due to Baltimore's throwing a lot of kid pitchers out there.

Wow, did you bother to check ANY facts before you posted that?

Second-half stats:

Delgado vs BAL: .288/.393/.654
Delgado non-BAL: .345/.468/.648

In other words, his stats against Baltimore dragged his BA/OBP *down*. His late-season resurgence wasn't "mostly" due to Baltimore, and it wasn't even partly due to Baltimore.

The kids were too dumb to pitch around Carlos, and were challenging him with fastballs. And, if you challenge Carlos with a fastball, he'll hit it into Windows Restaurant.

Delgado homered twice off of Tanyon Sturtze, once off Dave Burba, once off Roger Clemens, once off Steve Karsay ... are these guys really "dumb kid" pitchers?

Carlos's problem the last two years is that everyone's figured out that he's good. They never throw him strikes any more, so he draws a lot of walks.

They must be throwing him some strikes, since he's hit 30+ homers each of the last six years. And he has been drawing a lot of walks for four years now.

Delgado's second-half surge may not totally carry over into 2003, but it's nowhere near the phantom you make it out to be.
Craig B - Thursday, December 05 2002 @ 01:41 PM EST (#101689) #
Agreed with Dave that I'd rather have Carlos hitting home runs and jogging. And it doesn't bother me that Carlos doesn't run hard all the time... at his bulk, running too hard may bring on injuries, as was pointed out.

But is it too much to ask, for him to play smarter? It's not the fact that he doesn't run hard that bothers me; the obvious mistakes, on the bases and in the field, are irritating.

I'll still take him any day, and I still root for him, but I just wish he'd keep his head in the game. And if he walks 120 times a year, it sure won't bother me... I'd rather see him swing less, actually. As has been pointed out, more times for Phelps to rake with men on is money in the bank. If Wells raises his hitting game, having Phelps and Wells up after Delgado is going to look good.

Anyone else have any thoughts on the Blue Jay batting order, either what they think we will see, or what they would like to see?

My own preference is this one:

Stewart
Hudson
Hinske
Delgado
Phelps
Cruz
Wells
Lopez
Punt!

I'd like for Hinske to hit right in front of Delgado, to get more good pitches, particularly more with men on base. But really, so long as Stewart is at the top of the order and Huckaby or Cash or whoever at the bottom, I'm happy with almost any order.
_Jordan - Thursday, December 05 2002 @ 02:35 PM EST (#101690) #
Craig, I like that batting order. Ideally, you'd like to switch Phelps and Delgado to get that L-R-L combo in the 3-4-5 slots, but there are various good reasons not to do that. I also think you're right that Cruz should hit ahead of Wells, though I wouldn't be surprised to see them flip before the season ends (and if Cruz is traded mid-year, Werth would almost certainly hit no higher than 7th). I think they'll have Woodward rather than Lopez at short, but I couldn't agree more on the #9 spot. :-)

The wrinkle would be if they traded Hudson, which still appears to be a live possibility. Berg and Lopez would probably split the ABs in his place for this year, and I wouldn't want either of those guys in the #2 hole. If Hudson were to go, I think I'd structure the lineup like this:

Stewart
Hinske
Phelps
Delgado
Cruz
Wells
Woodward
Lopez/Berg
6-3

That combo doesn't excite me nearly as much, since the lineup falls off a cliff after Vernon (which probably wouldn't help his plate-discipline efforts either). Just another reason I'd hate to see Orlando shipped out unless absolutely necessary: he's a keystone on both sides of the mound.
_jason - Thursday, December 05 2002 @ 05:40 PM EST (#101691) #
I agree with the lineups, only didnt Wells get 100 RBI+ hitting out of the five hole last year? I think you keep him there, he's a better hitter (and player) than Cruz.

I think Hudson would work in either the 2 spot or the 9 spot. Assuming he's with the team come April.
_dp - Thursday, December 05 2002 @ 06:57 PM EST (#101692) #
Vern's 100 RBI worry me- he had a .305 OB%, and drew only 9 BB the 2nd half of the season. The 100 RBI make it look like a good season, but Vern has some work to do on his batting eye, and there isn't much in his minor league numbers to suggest he'll do it. I know it was an accaptable year, but I hope he focuses on the right area of his game to improve for '03.

I've said before on this group that I'd hate to see Lopez dealt, but it bears repeating. This guy has huge potential. He's a better hitter than Jason Werth and Hudson and Russ Adams, and if what he showed at Syracuse was real improvement, he may have even learned to draw a few walks. I'd like nothing more than to see Lopez steal a job in the spring and hit in the #2 spot (or even leadoff- he's faster than Stew at this point). Even in RF I think he'd be acceptable if Cruz were dealt.

One thing that strikes me about the roster is how young it is- you look at these guys, and they've all had at least some seasoning. Even the "old" guys haven't hit 30, and even Chris Woodward (who seems like he's been around for a while) is only 26. That gives me a lot of hope for a nice League Ownership run '04-'08.
Coach - Thursday, December 05 2002 @ 08:12 PM EST (#101693) #
It is so cool not to be needed here! And although I've been in Internet withdrawal (cold turkey) for four days, the satellite dish kept me up to speed with the news, so it's just insight that's been missing -- I had to watch Marty York babble about stuff we've been discussing for two weeks.

My recurring plea on ESPN last spring was for Carlos Delgado to hit third, to reduce the damage of being stuck between Cruz and Mondesi. Though the supporting cast is stronger, it's still a good idea.
_Kent - Thursday, December 05 2002 @ 08:31 PM EST (#101694) #
Kudos to Matthew Elmslie over at Blue Jay Way for "Plato's Delgada" -- great stuff!

Craig, you and I are "smitten" with the talent and enthusiasm of the O-Dog more than some of the Jays decision makers are. I see a kid with energy and creativity, who sometimes plays out of control, and might someday develop into a 2-hitter. If they don't trade him, I'd vote for Hudson to hit ninth, where he'll be a pleasant surprise, instead of second, where in some schemes you have to "manufacture" runs but in 2003 Toronto, you need patience.

I agree with Hinske and Delgado back-to-back (though I like them 2nd and 3rd) but that's asking Eric to step up this year and improve his production against left-handed pitching; a 2-6 "platoon" of Wells and Hinske remains a possibility.
_Jan Jansen - Thursday, December 05 2002 @ 10:08 PM EST (#101695) #
I agree with Hinske and Delgado back-to-back (though I like them 2nd and 3rd) but that's asking Eric to step up this year and improve his production against left-handed pitching;

Better that they push Hinske like that rather than klesko-ize him and forbid him from facing a lefty for four years.

I think Stewart-Hinske-Delgado-Phelps-Wells would have to be the way to score the most runs, no? It's OBP, OBP + some power, big OBP & power, big power and some OBP, then just power.
_Jordan - Friday, December 06 2002 @ 10:11 AM EST (#101696) #
Better that they push Hinske like that rather than klesko-ize him and forbid him from facing a lefty for four years.

Not just Klesko-ize him --- Green-ize him. I still haven't forgiven Gaston for platooning Shawn through his arbtration-eligible years. I don't think the Jays will make that mistake. Hinske will sit against tough lefties, but all lefthanders not named Barry do that. He'll be fine in short order.
Craig B - Friday, December 06 2002 @ 10:30 AM EST (#101697) #
Craig, you and I are "smitten" with the talent and enthusiasm of the O-Dog more than some of the Jays decision makers are. I see a kid with energy and creativity, who sometimes plays out of control, and might someday develop into a 2-hitter.

Yeah, I am smitten with him. I see a pretty polished second baseman, who turns a great double play, and has great "young player skills"... he hits for a high average, can run a little bit, and has doubles/triples power. He's not a high-strikeout guy either.

There are a lot of scouts out there who seem smitten with him too. Hudson was getting pretty rave reviews last winter.

If they don't trade him,

They better not! Though JPR probably wouldn't unless he unlocked good value for him. If we trade Hudson and get pitching prospects I won't be particularly happy.

I'd vote for Hudson to hit ninth, where he'll be a pleasant surprise, instead of second, where in some schemes you have to "manufacture" runs but in 2003 Toronto, you need patience.

Ninth is a pretty good spot, with Shannon Stewart coming up behind him. But I'd rather that Hudson get pitches to hit. I wasn't thinking of having him hit ninth, which also works well... rather I was thinking if he wasn't second, he'd have to hit in front of the Huckaby/Lopez/Woodward guys, and I'd rather let a guy like Hudson who can hit .300 hit .300, rather than hit .250 and draw 30 walks instead of hitting 30 extra singles. The worry with hitting him second, is that O-Dog got away from taking pitches last year and he has to get back to that.

Ninth would work, though... except of course that it's the pitcher's spot, so you'd have to get creative with where Huckaby goes. :)
Coach - Friday, December 06 2002 @ 01:06 PM EST (#101698) #
Not only am I outnumbered by lawyers here, I'm often the voice of "traditional baseball wisdom," as opposed to the enlightened statistical analysis practiced by many of you.

My "Hudson ninth" suggestion does imply that Huckaby/Wilson/Cash hits eighth, and that was a coach reflex; it's where I believe the weakest bat and/or slow guy does the least damage. I prefer the "extra leadoff man" approach at the bottom. It's probably one of those things that can be proven wrong, but I'd be reluctant to accept it. I've learned to love the two-out double with the top of the order coming up. They're like leadoff walks according to Tim McCarver -- they all score.
_Matthew Elmslie - Friday, December 06 2002 @ 05:17 PM EST (#101699) #
Big day for me - I get linked to in Baseball Primer and the Batter's Box. How cool is that?
Dave Till - Monday, December 09 2002 @ 09:55 AM EST (#101700) #
Jan (#762): thanks for the correction. Where did you get your numbers? (Alas, I don't have time to do detailed research - I'm posting this from work.)

Glad to hear that Delgado's numbers are a real resurgence.
The Anchor at First | 14 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.