Thanks for the Hardball Times plug, Mike. I heartily recommend Steve Treder's "Time Machine" article this morning on Honus Wagner, which is terrific. In fact, everything Steve has done for us at THT has been really fantastic.

The third and final instalment of my series on Benny Kauff will be published tomorrow on THT.

Incidentally, I've lost my specs. Has anyone seen them? They have black frames with a red-and-white moire pattern on the lenses.

At what point does Tosca realize that Berg is not the solution right now in left field? I will admit to being optimistic that he has his hit for the month of May already. Griffin of course praises the Jays little ball instincts last night, bashes Moneyball, while pretending to never have known the successes of one Earl Weaver. Tosca will be bashed by second guessers (like myself) until the Jays start winning consistently. I know Speier had gone 1 and 2/3 innings, but he had only thrown 15 pitches. Why not let him come out for the tenth?

Jeff DaVanon is the solution in left, but unfortunately he's not a member of the Jays.

With the expectation that few people will read up to post 157 in last night's game thread, I'm reproducing here the Cheer Club Reports posted by NFH, myself, and Jobu at the end of that thread:

Named For Hank:

The bottom of the ninth was really something great. I blew my voice out. Seriously.

Could anyone hear our GO JAYS GO in the ninth? Or our continued encouragements to Royals to try to steal second?

The hammer seemed to work every time we used it, too! I've left it in Jobu's care, and he has promised to continue to bring it out.

My voice is so blown out that it's comical. I was reduced to GO JAYS Go*squeak*cough*.

Anyone who wants to laugh at the damage I've done to myself, drop me a line (COMN) and I'll give you my work phone number so you can call me.

Andrew Edwards:

Great game - ugly until the 9th, and a shame we lost, but still a great game.

Delgado's at-bat in the ninth, I want it to be known, was IMO heroic. He was down 0-2, with two outs and nobody on in the bottom of the ninth, after his team had played abismally. It would have been soooo easy to give up, but he hung in, and drove the hit that would start the rally that very nearly won the game.

Carlos is the man.

I can't talk either, Aaron. Seriously, we were audible on TV? You might have heard me calling Ken Harvey a fatso, or Benito Santiago "Grandpa".

The hammer, incidentally, is not a hammer of power, but rather a hammer of wisdom, which gives the Jays the ability to wait for good pitches, and take walks if necessary.

One last point: The runs the Jays did score came off - you guessed it - patience at the plate and careful baserunning, while the Royals gave up two baserunners (enough to have secured the win?) with their silly steal attempts.

Oh yeah, and the official cheer for O-Dog is now a prolonged OHHHHHHHH!

Like Mookie, only with a long "o" instead of the "oo" sound.

Jobu:

Some brief comments before im off to bed to nurse my sore throat:

1)NFH's throat is as sore as he says. We went nuts for quite a while.

2)The hammer is even better than you can imagine and i'll bring it every game and try to get it signed pre-game too. Look for it next game.

3)The hammer isn't really a hammer of power, but we've discoverd its a hammer of wisdom. No word yet if the hammer was just going through a phase.

Tough loss, lets get back in there and make some NOISE! GO JAYS GO!

I totally agree about Carlos' at-bat in the ninth. And O-Dog and Cat's at-bats were heartstopping. Really, truly a phenomenal inning to watch.

Tell me that all my pain wasn't in vain and that someone could hear us on the radio or TV.

At the top of the game, the Jays dugout definitely saw our FORGET APRIL banner -- a number of guys pointed at it.

Tonight I'll have to rest my poor throat, but I'll be out again on Wednesday.

Wasn't hard to hear anyone in the Dome. there were only about 900 people there. Seriously.

There certainly weren't 13,000 fans there. My guesstimate, based on previously announced attendance figures, would put about 8,000 fans in the seats. Both the lower deck and the upper deck had around half as many people as an average game last season when they were clocking around 15,000 or so.

Dire, dire, dire.

Didn't help that 3/4 of the folks who said a week ago that they'd be there last night didn't show. Yeah, the Sox losses were dispiriting. And? The Jays needed you, and you bailed.

I sure am glad that I didn't buy tickets and let people pay me back. I would have been screwed.

Sorry I couldn't make it. I really wanted to come, but with a work deadline, I couldn't justify the 2+ hour drive each way plus a 3 hour or whatever game.

Like I said, though, it's a lot easier for us all to bitch than it is to do something constructive. Imagine what the attendance would have been yesterday if a Leafs game were on!

http://www.bluejayway.ca
Still have 4 free tickets available in level 200 to todays game.

Email me and we can arrange to pick them up at the Dome

S'Alright, Moffatt, I was just annoyed.

I expect attendance to stink worse tonight, despite the two dollar tickets. Good news is that the sales will be higher because companies etc will buy tickets to give away to employees who won't use them.

During the first few innings I was sort of shellshocked by the place, really, it was insanely quiet. It felt like I was pushing against an immovable, invisible wall.

You should be annoyed. The crowds are pathetic. I wish everyone who bitches about how lousy the Skydome atmosphere is would come out to some games and try to make a difference. Like I said, being in London, I can't get to the Dome all that often, but I'll be there for at least 10 games this year (already been to 1 and I have 100 level tickets to 4 more).

With $9 tickets, there's no excuse not to go to games if you're within public transit distance of the Dome.

Here's some interesting facts, which may or may not prove that the Jays are snakebit, in addition to playing badly:

- They're last in the league in home runs, but second in the league in doubles. With more luck, some of those hard-hit balls would have cleared the fences.

- They're 5th (best) in the league in errors, with 15, but 9th in the league in fewest unearned runs allowed.

- They're second in the league in runners left on base. (Some of this is obviously Vernon's fault.)

- They're not grounding into that many DP's: only 18, which ties them for third-best in the league. They just all seem to be in crucial situations.

Now, for some good news: according to USA Today's stats, the Royals have been caught stealing only five times all year. Kevin Cash, personally, has accounted for 40% of that total.

Let me second Craig's recommendation for Steve Treder's article on Honus Wagner in the hardballtimes.com. You'll feel like you've met Honus after you're done.

Now, for some good news: according to USA Today's stats, the Royals have been caught stealing only five times all year. Kevin Cash, personally, has accounted for 40% of that total.

It came to me last night while we were advising KC baserunners that it would be smart of them to try to steal a base that the Cheer Club needs a banner that reads TRY TO STEAL: IT'S A GOOD IDEA.

What I don't get is that the Jays had a RH outfielder, but they let him go. JP's tied Tosca's hand here- you should never be forced to make Berg part of a corner outfield platoon. I just don't understand how someone who makes so many good moves can fail to see/address the problem with this situation. And the "25th man doesn't matter" argument doesn't hold water to me- when you're losing this close and this consistently, you need every advantage you can get. Dave Berg isn't one of those.

I'd also like to give some love to the Hardball Times -- haven't read the Wagner article yet, but I've been enjoying the length and depth of the articles, which is a bit of a nice change in an internet filled with summaries and wire-service articles.

Not sure what way Werth hit but it does seem a bit foolish to trade him to free up a roster spot for Pond and then send Pond down after 3 AB's.

It's been said many times before, Gomez-Berg, do the same things so why are they both there? Is it possible that they Jays are so cheap that the guaranteed money($750 000 or so) that these guys make is preventing one of them from going to Syracuse? I'm just guessing as to what their contracts are but it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

If the Jays let go one member of the bullpen, who should it be? I don't think Nakamurra is sufficently different from other pitchers to warrant a spot. For the others, a trade is more likely as, for example, Lightenberg is not going to play in Syracuse for $2.3 million.

I'd also like to see if Val DLS is any good. Bring him in the sixth and let him pitch an inning. If he's no good, then so be it. It bugs me that he seems to be decent but they only let him pitch to one batter.

I wish everyone who bitches about how lousy the Skydome atmosphere is would come out to some games and try to make a difference.

I'm going to post about this again because I'm still a little angry from last night. No, that's not true, I'm a lot angry from last night. Check out this post to the thread announcing Noise Night, from about an hour before game time, referring to the hammer I made for Jobu, and my invitation to come out to the game: "I'll just smash my TV with a real hammer once the Jays strike out three times in a row with the bases loaded, down 1 run in the ninth."

If anything sums up a stereotypical Toronto fan, this is it. And I have to say, the stereotype is very, very real, and very well represented even here on the Box. Hell, it was represented by the doughnuts who left the game last night after we had tied it in the bottom of the ninth, leaving only about two thousand of us in the stands.

Really, what is the matter with everyone? The Doc laid it out for you: the Jays think that we suck, that we are not there for them and that we don't help them out when they need us. I can stand up and say that I try, I really do, and while I hate to be painted with the same brush as all of you who don't, I have to agree with Mr. Halladay. Toronto fans suck. We suck.

"I can't come to the game because the Mister Sub Hat Shuffle is annoying and I don't like breakdancers." Yeah, and so I give you an out: talk to the person next to you, or take a walk in the concourse between innings. Then what? Silence. And you still don't come out.

Excuses, excuses, excuses. And they're not even good excuses. We suck.

To be fair, the Jays suck, too. There's a lot more incentive to go to see a winning team than a losing one. I agree, though, that many of the excuses are lousy. And hey, the prices are great. In all likelihood, I'm going to watch Pat Hentgen get his brains blown out tonight, but it's only going to cost me $2.

Moving along... I looked at the "expected records" at ESPN in an attempt to seek some consolation. The Jays come in at a not-as-horrible .423 -- better than Tampa, KC and Seattle. What's really staggering is that Montreal's expected W-L is even worse than the real thing: .192!!!

And this really jumped out at me: The White Sox are 10-1 in one-run games. Not that this is necessarily an endorsement of small-ball (maybe they'd have fewer one-run games if they just hit more; the similarly small-ball Royals 2-5), but that is impressive.

Aaron,

I can understand your anger but remember you're talking to around 250 fans that do care. I'll be there Friday night with a bunch of friends and will continue to support the team. However, the Jays still need another 30,000 more fans.

I agree with you, Toronto is no longer interested in baseball. This will not change until the Jays are challenging the Yanks for the division. Toronto fans are fair weather corporate whores.

To be fair, the Jays suck, too.

No, that's not fair. How demoralizing is it to play in an empty, echoing barn where the only fans in attendance are completely indifferent? Or worse, when they do make noise, it's "Go Leafs Go", or last night, "Go Flames Go". You have fans in the seats rooting for a hockey team from another city while you are playing.

The Jays' home record accurately reflects what we are giving them to work with. There was only so much that Andrew, Jobu and I could do last night.

If you go in expecting a blowout and sit on your hands and shut your mouth, you'll get what you expected. Give them some support, something they can see and hear, give them some love and show them that we believe in them.

To that end, we were wracking our brains last night for things to do that could hopefully catch on. The best one was the O-Dog call -- when O-Dog comes up to bat, after he's been announced and the music dies down and the Dome reverts to Library-during-exams sound level, shout OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH until you run out of breath. Get your section doing it. When he gets on base, do it again. When he makes a great play in the field, do it again. We had our section doing it, especially in the ninth, and it was a blast. It's fun, it's easy, it's inclusive.

Vernon is in desperate need of one of these. Anyone?

http://bluejayscheerclub.com
I can understand your anger but remember you're talking to around 250 fans that do care.

Yeah? I had 22 e-mailed "Yes I will be there" RSVPs from last week. Guess how many showed? Three. Like I said, I'm glad I didn't buy a block of tickets.

Agreed, very inconsiderate of them.

ESPN is reporting that Bruce Chen was traded to the Orioles for PTBNL.

NFH, I'm as frustrated as you are. Maybe even more so, cause I would love to make a difference but can't. I would kill to be so close to TO go to lots of games, and the people who are don't take advantage of it. That is extraordinarily aggrevating. I can usually only get to ONE/year, and people who can go to tons STILL only go to one/year.

There aren't many things more annoying than fairweather fans, and right now I have the worst of both ends. My team isn't that great (well, I still think they are, just not playing like it), so no one goes to the Skydome to support the Jays, and the team I hate (Cubs) IS good, so fairweatherers come out of the woodwork around this damn town. I'm bitter. And it's finals week of med school with boards coming up too to make it worse. That's my rant for now.

The attendance is about where it was last year at this time. April to mid-May are not times that you're going to get consistently big crowds. BTW, I've been to every game but one (though I won't be able to attend tonight).

Let's face it - the lack of noise and big crowds is not why the Jays are 1 and 9 at home. When the Jays start winning and the weather heats up, they'll be plenty more people.

I suggest that the team has a better April next year, in order to build enthusiasm for the team.

I've created a new thread to brainstorm ideas about having more chants like "OHHHHHH" that lead to more fan participation and a better Skydome experience. If you're not in the Toronto area, here's your chance to help out in a way other than going to the Dome. You can suggestion fun, amusing, positive, and inclusive chants or songs that those going to the Dome can use.

Let's face it - the lack of noise and big crowds is not why the Jays are 1 and 9 at home.

When a guy who is a big time team leader comes out and says that it is affecting them, what leads you to believe otherwise, Robert?

http://me.woot.net
NFH, your passion WILL rescue the Jays. I share it, and it's only my ridiculous insistence on going to school in a place a little bit too far from Toronto to go there regularly (what was I thinking!?) that keeps me from joining you. I will try very hard to get out to the Dome for a Cheer Club meeting this month, though. (Next month is a LOT harder.)

You were very definitely audible on the TV last night. I heard "Go Jays Go" punctuated by the horn, I suppose because one of you no longer had any Jays left in you to Go.

I tried to move your comment, but you beat me to it. :)

This year, games that are reported as having 16,000 in attendance are relying heavily on season ticket holders who are not attending or able to give away their tickets.

And what's worse is that they are demoralized crowds.

I'm not angry at people who couldn't attend last night, by the way. I was disappointed at the number of no-shows, but it happens. I'll live. But the Jays need us.

The crowd this year, regardless of numbers, is deathly quiet. Last year's crowd was almost boisterous in comparison.

And I would love real grass in the Dome.

A sign of the attendance troubles: in the SkyWalk between Union Station and the Dome, there was ONE scalper, ten minutes before game time.

And he was selling Leafs tickets for the next night.

Aaron,

No offense, I know you are just trying to drum up some support, but teams that play as badly as the Jays have keep people away. The price doesn’t matter when it’s Jimmy Gobble dominating the team like Sandy Koufax. It’s not even worth investing the time to watch the game on TV to most people. The idea that small crowds are the reason why the team is playing awful is just nonsense. Somehow Cleveland beat Curt Shilling in front of about 85 people at the Jake last night.

This is sports in the 21st century – every team’s attendance is tied to it’s record. See every example in baseball from Cleveland to Boston to the Yankees vs the Mets. You can see it in hockey from Vancouver (whose season ticket base went from 10k to being capped at 16k) to Carolina to Tampa. Check out the NBA playoffs: The Celtics gave extra playoff tickets to season ticket holders and they only drew 12k for the final home game. I once went to an NHL PLAYOFF game that had a grand total of 8,700 people there (Hartford/Montreal 1992).

Roy is a big boy who makes millions. If he thinks the Toronto fans suck – then he thinks that all fans suck, because they aren’t different anyplace else.

NFH

I'm sorry I bailed on the Cheer Club last night, but at least I was at the game. And this may not mean much being posted on the internet, but I personally would never stiff someone if they had purchased a ticket on my behalf.

I was offered free premium dugout seats for the game and ended up sitting a few rows up from the Jays dugout. I could definitely see the Cheer Club signs, but couldn't hear you. That was probably because I had a special weapon with me in my best friend's 13 year old very loud and energetic son Charlie. Between trying to get Cal Ripken's autograph, having Delgado throw him a ball, and getting his face on the Jumbotron, he was very entertaining. While Charlie didn't get the autograph or ball, he did get on the Jumbotron. He also blew his voice out cheering for the Jays.

We were, however, the exception in our area of seats. While everyone was definitely watching the game, they weren't interested in making noise, and kept looking at us when we did. This only changed during the rally, when the fans that were left actually got loud.

Toronto baseball crowds appear to be reactive for the most part. Cheerleading just doesn't seem to come naturally. Maybe the song/chant ideas can help change that.

It may be affecting them, but the effect is surely not significant enough to change the standings. Am I to believe that these guys are giving less than their all just because the place is quiet?

No offense, I know you are just trying to drum up some support, but teams that play as badly as the Jays have keep people away.

Reading everyone's reactions to last night's game made me think that I hallucinated a stellar outing from Justin Miller. Did his great night not come through on the TV or something?

Tenobia, no worries. If there's one rule I live by, it's Always Take The Seat Upgrade. ;)

Robert: Sometimes a team needs a little spark to push them over the edge. Tosca's ejection a few nights ago seemed to do it. As fans, it's our job to give them that spark, and we are not doing it, so yes, I think we do take at least partial responsibility for where they're at.

You think you're giving 110%, and then something happens and you find this extra 5% in you that you didn't know you had.

Named For Hank: I'm not sure that there's a direct relationship between crowd size and team results. Recall that the Jays tend to do badly when they have a large home crowd - I think they try too hard, or something.

And you can't really expect large crowds right now, given that (a) 99.9% of Toronto sports fans are going nuts about the Leafs right now, (b) we haven't exactly had baseball weather lately, and (c) the Jays are 1-9 at home. Fans tend to want to see winning baseball; as soon as the Jays start winning, the fans will come back.

For me, as a Jays fan, it's just too painful to watch this close up. It's like having front-row seats at a road accident. If they were just losing badly because they're a bad team, you could accept it, but right now, they're badly snakebit. I might go to a game sometime soon, but it'll be a lot more enjoyable to be at the park when the cloud of bad karma has lifted.

This isn't just a 2004 thing, though. Consider the attendance of the Jays last year, which was pitiful for an 86 win team. Or to put it in perspective:

Team	Attend.	Wins	A/Wins
ANA	3061094	77	39,754
SEA	3268509	93	35,145
BAL	2454523	71	34,571
NYY	3465600	101	34,313
DET	1368245	43	31,820
TEX	2094394	71	29,499
BOS	2724165	95	28,675
CLE	1730002	68	25,441
OAK	2216596	96	23,090
CHW	1939524	86	22,553
MIN	1946011	90	21,622
KCR	1779895	83	21,445
TOR	1799458	86	20,924
TBD	1058695	63	16,805

What about Minnesota - back-to-back division titles, and Oakland great teams for the last four years and still only 2.2 million. If they Jays had the A's recent history, they'd be pushing 3 million at least.

Twenty years ago, 20 000 a game would put you in the top half of MLB, now, with all these modern stadiums, the old-style parks (Metrodome, Skydome, Coliseum) are at a distinct disadvantage.

Named For Hank: I'm not sure that there's a direct relationship between crowd size and team results.

No, I wouldn't neccessarily say crowd size, but certainly crowd volume. And it's harder to make noise with fewer people.

That ninth inning comeback last night was magic, pure magic, and I'm sad for everyone who missed it, genuinely.

One thing that NFH said that slipped by is that Miller had a FANTASTIC FREAKIN' OUTING yesterday. That is a huge plus for this team, if he can have one of those every three trips or so to the mound he'll solve the fifth starter problem.

I have though highly of Miller since his outings in 2002, particularly one against the hated Yankees, whom he befuddled.

Miller has great movement on all his pitches - he's like a raw version of Pedro without the velocity that Pedro had up until a few years ago. Raw, in this case, meaning he doesn't have the command of his picthes that Pedro found in Montreal.

I'm optimistic about his career because pitchers generally improve the command of their pitches as they gain experience. If his arm holds up and he works hard, I think he'll be a useful big-league pitcher for a long time.

Yes, Miller did have a great outing. As somebody mentioned on the broadcast last night, I believe that the fifth starter problem has been solved, thank you very much :-).

It's only two starts, but the signs are encouraging for Miller. He seems to have solved his major problems from 2002: a) Blowing up in the first inning and b) having no control whatsoever over his pitches.

Robert, Justin Miller is like Pedro absent the velocity and command. Hmm, that's an optimist's way of seeing things.

There were some signs in Syracuse that Miller was gaining some command. However,last night's start didn't persuade me that he's got it now, and I'm not satisfied yet that he's a better pitcher than Towers. Put me down in the "wait and see" camp.

I got a sinking feeling when I saw de los Santos throwing his warmup pitches on the mound last night. Most of his warmup pitches were sailing high (I mean batter's eye level). I thought to myself - Valerio doesn't have his command tonight. Thankfully the Royals only scored one run.

Young Pedro's velocity. Pedro's current velocity is about even with Miller's. Besides, Pedro in his prime was the closest thing we've seen to a perfect pitcher: command of a wide assortment of pitches, great movement on his 95+ fastball, and a devestating change-up. He was even a workhorse for a few years.

last night's start didn't persuade me that he's got it now

Well, I don't think it satisfies anyone. It's a great data point, though. He threw a lot of first-pitch strikes, and didn't go 3-0 or 3-1 at all (not that I can recall) until ghe put Beltran on with two out and the bases empty in the sixth.

The best part was, he did it while still getting swinging strikes and lots of them.

I am a Jays fan living in the New York area and it sickens me watching a game at the Dome because the fans are so quiet. I feel like I can't chear out loud or I will get "shhhed". The fans where I live are so passionate win or lose; I wish the Jays fans were more like that. Toronto may be in serious jeopardy of losing this once proud franchise. What an embarassment it would be for the city if that happened. It's up to the fans to turn that around and go out to the Dome and support the Jays.

Toronto may be in serious jeopardy of losing this once proud franchise.

Is there any danger of this? I haven't heard any rumours like this. Sure, the Jays aren't drawing, but a 1-9 start at home will do that.

There's absolutely a danger. If MLB.com wants to eliminate the Expos, the Jays would be a perfect fit, because as Craig pointed out, it avoids all the pesky issues with the U.S. Congress.

Is there any danger of this?

Ted Rogers likes money. Why wouldn't there be a danger?

Good point. Besides, if a hockey team can move out of Minnesota, then sure as heck a baseball team can move out of Canada.

Might the Toronto Wild be an NL expansion team in 2011?

if he can have one of those every three trips or so to the mound he'll solve the fifth starter problem.

If Miller can have one of these outings every few trips to the mound, he'll solve the third starter problem. Seriously, the early returns on psot-surgery Miller are very good. If he'd just shave that mustache, I'd like him even better.

Toronto will not lose the Blue Jays. There are plenty of other franchises in worse shape, closer to the edge, or less politically and civically secure than this one. The Jays will turn this season around, win 80+ games, and be a contender through the mid-2000s, and no one will talk about contracting them. Mark it down.

If he'd just shave that mustache, I'd like him even better.

Did the bullpen lose their glorious sideburns? I almost grew a set myself.

http://me.woot.net
I almost grew a set myself.

Me too, scarily enough. I was scared off it when Towers was sent down, sideburns and all.

Right now I'm just not shaving at all. Perhaps I'll go Fu like Hentgen, and scare my girlfriend.

I am a huge Jays fan and have only seen them play live (in Seattle) once. I live in Edmonton and can be counted on to see no Jays games live at Skydome. Before you suggest the Jays are in trouble you need to look at the Jays entire situation, including the fact that they are (or soon will be (bye Expos)) Canada's team. Rogers markets them across Canada, uses them to sell their phones and fill programming.

The crowds may suck in Toronto but that is not the whole financial picture. Rogers has 30 million potential viewers/fans which is a lot more than many other teams. Once the team gets turned around on the field, and whatever happens to make the Jays trendy enough for Torontonians to go to a game, or maybe the coming apocolypse with the Leafs when the majority of their team gets sent to the seniors home or a hard cap comes in to make the Leafs play fair with everyone else, Rogers will be sitting on a pretty good cash cow (if they are not already).

I think the majority of Jays fans on this site are on the leading edge of a new enthusiasm for the Jays, not overseeing the franchise's demise.

Moffatt, I respect your opinion, but I really can't see the Jays being contracted.
Even with small crowds, they still provide a ton of cheap programming for Rogers.
Without the Jays, there really isn't enough programming for 2 all sports networks.

Plus, I would imagine that Selig would be loathe to admit that he's failed with the international expansion. (Although Selig constantly surprises me).

Let's hope the optimism some share on this site will be fulfilled. Nobody hopes more than myself that the Jays will turn things around, but they HAVE to improve the product on the field. It's been next to impossible to be entertained by them this season. J.P.'s ideas seem good but we're not seeing any results. Unfortunately, I am losing some faith in his plan. I hope my outlook is wrong but I'm not convinced the "Moneyball" way is going to get the Jays where they need to go.

I don't think we were talking of contraction. We we talking relocation, baseball is on the way up in American. However, Paul D you have an excellent argument that it's cheap programming. Rogers is primarily in the cable business and if I'm not wrong TSN is also somehow owned by Rogers too. That's a lot of world's strongest man shows in the summer without the Jays.

Furthermore, it wasn't a serious suggestion. Just pointing out that it's not a God given right to have a baseball team to kick around.

I really doubt the Jays will get contracted too (I don't think anyone will). But what would be a better second candidate than Toronto?

Tampa has far worse attendance, but there's all kinds of political issues since Florida is a key swing state. If the Twins or A's were out of contention, I'd see both of them being candidates, as their support seems even softer than that of the Jays. After that you're running out of candidates. The Royals? The White Sox?

For the Jays to be contracted, they'd have to tank for two or three years in a row. That might have been a real possibility a few years ago, but with JP at the helm, I can't see it happening. I agree with Jordan, this team will still win 80+ games.

RE: Programming. If Blue Jays games get outdrawn by WWF shows and MXC, then that's the kind of stuff they'll put on Sportsnet. It's not likely, and Sportsnet is a lot more profitable with a successful Jays franchise, but if the ship starts sinking, Rogers isn't going to stay on it forever.

RE: Selig. What did Selig have to do with the international expansion?

TSN and Sprtsnet are no longer the same umbrella. TSN is now affiliated/owned by CTV.

From the painful (Ash) trades dept.:

Peter Gammons quotes one scout: "My favorite player is Michael Young. He has made himself a great shortstop, lengthened his arm and hits everything."

Young's 2004 stats?

.354/.398/.566, 8 2B, 2 3B, 4 HR, 3 SB, 0 CS

But what would be a better second candidate than Toronto?
Milwaukee.
:)
If they didn't have a new stadium they'd be perfect.
I think that one of the Florida teams is a good candidate.

Selig didn't have anything to do with international expansion, but he is promoting the game on an international level, and allowing games to be played in Puerto Rico, as well as mentioning Mexico as a possible relocation partner.
If he wants to have a world cup of baseball to show how truly international the game is, I don't think it would look very good if he contracted both of his international teams.

You make a good point about no city having a right to a baseball team though.

It doesn't help when Sportsnet decides it makes more sense to simulcast a NASCAR race that Fox affiliates are already showing instead of a Sunday afternoon game featuring last year's AL Cy Young Award winner.

I've been to three games this year, and the Jays lost all three (given their home record, this is not surprising). Opening Day was probably the worst, since we had great seats and had little to cheer about. In fact, the Jays haven't won a game I've attended since 2001 (and I even saw them once at Comerica Park to try and break the curse). The streak is at an even dozen now, so imagine how depressing that is.

Doesn't mean I've given up hope, though, and I will be attending at least four more games before the All-Star break, because how much longer can they be this bad, anyway? :)

If they didn't have a new stadium they'd be perfect.

That's entirely why Selig uses the threat of relocation/contraction.. to bully cities into giving him new stadiums. So that's why Minnesota was seen as the 2nd candidate, since the state/city has been really reluctant to build a new baseball-only stadium.

Given all the complaints some of us have about the Dome, can't you at least picture Selig saying "The Jays simply can't compete with this stadium, so that's why we had to move/contract them. Call us back when you get a new stadium that generates enough revenues for an MLB team"?

That's entirely why Selig uses the threat of relocation/contraction.. to bully cities into giving him new stadiums.
I realize that, and I think that's why it's unlikely that Washington will get a team, even if they are a better fit than Portland/Las Vegas/ etc.

The problem with your scenario is that Selig must realize that there is 0 chance of getting public funding for a stadium in Toronto.
At least when he makes that threat in Minnesota he's clinging to the belief that he can change the mind of the legislature.
Can you imagine any level of government pitching for a new stadium, when the one they have is only 15 years old? (Aside: Maybe the Jays and Argos and Soccer Canada could get together on their outdoor stadium, but I don't see that as a viable option).

Plus, in order for that little scam to work, Selig has to have the support of the local owners. My guess is that if Ted Rogers came out and said that he needed a publically funded stadium he'd get laughed out of the press conference the moment the words left his mouth. And Rogers is too smart for something like that.

Let's just say that the odds of contraction are very small?
And then we can get back to discussing how to cheer up the Jays and the crowds so we get some winners!

WWE shows outdraw a lot of things... at one point a few years ago it was, easily, the highest rated show on Cable. It's fallen quite far from that lofty standard, but it's popular nonetheless (well, not the shows that are on Sportsnet so much, but they're Monday night show is).

It doesn't help when Sportsnet decides it makes more sense to simulcast a NASCAR race that Fox affiliates are already showing instead of a Sunday afternoon game featuring last year's AL Cy Young Award winner.

I think all of these Sunday games that are off of the schedule have something to do with Sportsnet running ESPN Sunday Night Baseball. Maybe there are terms to the deal?

Always 'fun' to see sky is falling comments about the Jays moving/being contracted. Attendence for the Jays is solid vs the league as a whole.

Checking ESPN for 2004 Attendance...

TEAM	GMS	AVG
NY Yankees	14	46415
Los Angeles	15	41398
Philadelphia	11	40244
Chicago Cubs	10	39490
Anaheim	10	39190
San Francisco	17	38572
Houston	14	36568
San Diego	16	36324
Boston	11	35054
Seattle	10	34513
St. Louis	17	34180
Arizona	12	33625
Atlanta	9	32524
Florida	9	31411
Texas	13	28133
Baltimore	14	27660
NY Mets	10	27298
Colorado	15	26972
Cincinnati	9	26247
Oakland	9	25987
Tampa Bay	13	22300
Kansas City	12	21103
Minnesota	15	21008
Toronto	10	20483
Chicago Sox	14	19931
Detroit	15	19034
Cleveland	12	18645
Milwaukee	14	17421
Pittsburgh	11	15947
Montreal	9	13210

The Jays are averaging 525 fewer fans a game than playoff contender Minnesota, 552 _more_ a game than the White Sox who are in a very large market and are contenders.

They are in the bottom 1/3rd which sucks, and they need 5k more a night to move to the middle 1/3rd. However, the fans are known to be fair weather fans and should the Jays fight for the division lead come the All Star break (this year, next year, whenever) I'd bet on 30k a game on weekends, 20-25 weekdays. Should they hold on most of the season then 30k a game would be reasonable which would put them into the upper half of attendance. Plus of course the large tv viewing audience never hurts. I recall hearing that ratings were up a lot last year and should they play well once the Leafs are out of the playoffs then those ratings should continue to climb.

Ah well. Whatever happens will happen. At least we aren't fans of Pittsburgh (almost as close to the Expos for home attendance as they are to the 28th ranked team).

John,

Speculation about the Jays possibly being contracted down the road isn't a "sky is falling" comment. It's a perfectly erasonable analysis... which is never likely to come true, but it doesn't mean that the Jays aren't the very best candidate to join the Expos should it ever raise its ugly head again.

The very best candidate is Tampa Bay. Their "park" doesn't even measure up to our airplane hangar of a mallpark.

Where was the story about Halladay criticizing the Blue Jays fans?

Robert, the problem with trying to contract Tampa Bay is the pressure that will bring in Congress. We all saw the heck that Minnesota congress-critters raised when the Twins were being contracted. Florida has much, much more clout there, not to mention a very vulnerable governor who is very, very friendly to the current (and likely future) Administration.

Toronto doesn't present those problems. That's why it's the perfect candidate if contraction were desirable or necessary for MLB.

Tampa isn't going anywhere. Not with their 30 year lease and the political situation. Or as Rob Neyer put it:

"The Devil Rays and Marlins both play in awful ballparks before small "crowds." But if you thought MLB ran into legal troubles when they tried to kill the Twins, you ain't seen nothin' yet. There are so many legal and political problems with contracting a Florida team that it's hardly worth discussing."

Because there's no obvious choice for a second candidate, contraction is unlikely to happen. But don't kid yourselves, if the Blue Jays aren't the second best choice, they're pretty close to it. I agree with Paul D, though. If we can get the Dome rocking, this whole discussion will seem silly.

Okay, in terms of contraction, I don't think that's even a remote possibility these days. When was the last time you heard the owners talk about "too many teams" and "dilution of talent"? They got what they wanted out of the last Collective Bargaining Agreement, and they'll get more with the next one, because the balance of power has shifted their way. The only reason contraction was even floated in the first place because (a) MLB hadn't a clue what to do about the Expos and (b) Bud wanted to get his buddy Carl Pohlad a huge windfall. Once the Expos get a new home, we'll have trouble remembering that whole grotesque episode ever happened. If the NHL -- which is in more dire need of contraction than any league in history -- won't cut any teams, baseball certainly won't either. It's not an issue.

Relocation is no threat either. First, Ted Rogers has given no indication that he's the least bit concerned about the Jays from a financial point of view, now that salaries are under control. The payroll is US$50 million, and it's important to appreciate that it isn't $40M or $30M, which it just as easily could be. If Ted's giving JP $50M a year, you can be sure that's exactly the amount that allows the Jays to be a profitable venture, or at least a conveniently acceptable losing venture. Rogers will own the Jays as long as it makes fiscal sense for them to do so, and right now, from every indication, it does.

Second, there are any number of political reasons for the Jays to stay put. If Paul Godfrey isn't the most influential man in Toronto, he's pretty damn close. John Tory has a lot of ties to Rogers and a lot of ties to Bay Street and other power centres. David Miller will not under any circumstances allow anyone to remember him as "the mayor who lost the baseball team." Neither Skydome nor the taxpayers who are probably still financing it want to see that facility abandoned to monster truck pulls and Billy Graham visits. Franchises don't relocate these days unless relations between the owner and the municipality are poor, the facilities are dreadful (which Skydome is not), and the fan/local business base has deteriorated badly. Not only is that not Toronto, that's not Toronto in the foreseeable future. You'll see the Raptors relocate before the Jays will; it's just not a plausible concern.

Maybe contraction will be floated again someday. Maybe numerous circumstances will conspire to make relocation a real threat. But right now, those two possibilities are so far off the radar that I can't believe they're even being speculated about, and I'm not going to given another minute's consideration to them. There's more than enough going on in the real world right now to be concerned with.

Well if Sportsnet is anything like American cable television, they get more revenue from the per subscriber fee then they do advertising. You think ESPN can pay those silly rights fees because of the Dasani halftime report?

Where was the story about Halladay criticizing the Blue Jays fans?

It was a couple of lines in a game writeup in (I think) the Globe and Mail. He wasn't attacking the fans, just saying that unlike other teams, the Jays cannot rely on their fans to pick them up.

I don't want to get deeper into a contraction discussion - like Jordan, I find it a ridiculous waste of time to discuss at this point.

But I would like to add that potential ownership groups in Portland, D.C. and Las Vegas might be able to sue MLB if they threatened contraction. They could reason that relocation is always preferable and that contracting and then demanding exhorbitant expansion fees amounts to blackmail based on restraint of trade.

If this is MLB's plan (contract and expand, collect fees, rinse and repeat), it WAS IS and WILL ALWAYS BE a stupidly cynical plan that only undermines the public's confidence in their organisation.

There's every indication that Montreal will be moved for 2005, so by 2007, Bud will have to find TWO fresh teams to threaten with contraction.

Just looking around at the archives...

In retrospect, 2005 has been much better for the Jays. they're averaging around 25,000 a game but those 25,000 people are louder and creating more of an atmosphere. We're on pace to sell 2.2 million tickets this year and the team has been alright.

This cannot be said for alot of MLB teams out there. Oakland, TB, Pittsburgh, KC, and Milwaukee have had crowds under 11,000. Baltimore has failed to get 20,000 on a weekday despite their 1st place ballclub.

Minnesota, Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, Mets, Marlins, Phillies, Arizona, Cincinnati and Seattle have all been disppointing at the gate, in particular Philidephia who was at one point getting 20,000 despite their excellent one year old balpark. Solid markets used to getting 30,000 a game like Arizona and Seattle are now getting 22,000.

Our attendance has gone up and there is every reason for it to keep increasing as summer comes closer. I don't feel like much of an outsider when I go to a Jays game anymore by making noise.

Why did you have to bring this up? You've gone and made me all nostalgic (*Snif*)

Pepper, I can understand when you say you don't have the time for this type of thing anymore, but I honestly feel your Round Ups were MUCH MORE than just a bunch of links that any of us (lazy) people could find.

You were insightful, witty, and more than a few times I found myself doubled over with laughter. Your mystery lyrics were a great way to get my brain working in the morning (eventhough, more often than not, I found myself singing them to myself for the rest of the day).

As a writer, I found you very, very, entertaining in these 'clips', which is more than I can say for some of these novel-length articles that pop-up. I'm truly sorry that you weren't finding fulfillment in producing these 'candles-in-the-wind'.