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The Detroit Tigers are in town for the Canada Day weekend.

Series Schedule / Probable Starters

Friday at 7:07 pm ET - Francisco Liriano (3-3, 3.94) vs.Marcus Stroman (0-5, 6.80)
Saturday at 1:07 pm ET - Matt Boyd (4-6, 4.15) vs.Sam Gaviglio (2-2, 3.98)
Sunday at 1:07 pm ET - Jordan Zimmermann (2-0, 4.35) vs. J.A. Happ (10-3, 3.62)
Monday at 1:07 pm ET - Mike Fiers (5-5, 4.04) vs. TBA

The Tigers are on a nine-game losing streak after being swept in five games in Ohio and returning home to lose four straight to Oakland. The team also fired pitching coach Chris Bosio for using a racial slur. Detroit is 36-46 which leaves them 9-1/2 games behind Cleveland in the American League Central.

The Blue Jays dropped two of three in Houston to fall to 37-43 on the year. They are 17 games off the pace in the AL East.

On Deck - The New York Mets are in Toronto for a two-game set on Tuesday.
Blue Jays vs. Tigers - June 29-July 2 | 131 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Gerry - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#360957) #
Aaron Sanchez finger is still tender and he hasn't thrown since he went on the DL. He won't be back soon.
uglyone - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#360959) #
good thing we shut him down mid playoff race.

Sweeney call up - I guess it's a testament to how poorly the roster is constructed that bringing up a guy who can actually play the OF is needed, even when we don't have a backup SS either.
hypobole - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#360962) #
Coincidentally, The day after we trade Pearce, we face Liriano.

And speaking of trades, what kind of prospect package return could the Cards get if they made Dexter Fowler available?
Spifficus - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#360966) #
I think they could get the right to watch Luke Weaver from the visitor's dugout.
jerjapan - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#360970) #
nothing for Fowler, but what kind of trade could the Brewers make for Cain, potential MVP candidate and FA bargain of the offseason?  Verlander was toast a few years back, right?  Stros could likely get a good return there ... 

does cherry picking good or bad FAs, good or bad trades, really make any compelling point? 
85bluejay - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#360971) #
What we need now is a soliloquy on why Dexter Fowler is actually a great sign by the Cardinals - once again Shapkins and co. missed the boat.
jerjapan - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 06:19 PM EDT (#360973) #
what we really need are more tiresome strawmen, right 85? 

can you point to one person, one comment, on this site that thinks what you just said is true? 
85bluejay - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#360974) #
I hope Stroman has a really great run - has only 2 years left so unlikely to be part of Jays next contention - He can bring back a TOR prospect which the jays really need - maybe a package from the Phillies (Sixto Sanchez) or Braves (Anderson & Gohara)
jerjapan - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 06:26 PM EDT (#360975) #
Trading Stroman now seems like selling low, no?  Or is it just all about the rebuild, avoid FA philosophy?  I can get the logic of that, but to me, a good FO wants to sign the right FAs and trade the right players, not just trade everyone and sign nobody.
hypobole - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 06:27 PM EDT (#360976) #
Hey, jerjapan, you seem to police the rest of the board, what about that "shut down Sanchez" comment?
SK in NJ - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#360977) #
Fowler has a -1.3 WAR, three years/$43.5 million left on his deal, and a complete no trade clause. So even if they found someone to take him he could veto it. Plus they lost a draft pick.

The funny thing is every free agent signing (or extension) that this FO was criticized for not pursuing by some section of this fanbase look awful or completely insignificant now (Price, Edwin, Bautista prior to 2016, Donaldson, Fowler). It’s almost like signing expensive free agents in their 30’s to huge contracts based on past performance is incredibly risky with low upside. Even if a player does well in year one of a long contract, they might still have 4, or 5, or 6 years left on their deals covering peak declining years. It’s a losing proposition. You might get a Nelson Cruz every once in a while but that’s the exception.
Spifficus - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 06:30 PM EDT (#360978) #
If he's past his shoulder issue, I'd prefer he were extended if feasible. I'm not sure if he'd get to back to full value by the deadline. If both of those are a negative, then there's still 4 other trade windows (2 offseasons and 2 deadlines).
jerjapan - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#360980) #
hypobole, I've got no problem calling people out for inflammatory statements.  In fact, I think it has significantly helped the tone of the board, since we no longer get flame wars, and more of us should have the sense of responsibility to do it.   it was very difficult for me at times, as it made me the target of some significant BS, and sometimes I missed the mark and was offensive myself.  but i remember Gerry and other key community members frequently appealing for an appropriate level of discourse.  and frankly, lazy / false logic is not just boring, it's actually pretty dangerous in the big picture, so I just like calling it out wherever I see it. 

fair point on the 'shut down sanchez' comment being inflammatory.  I frankly didn't get it and didn't pay much attention - it's easier to see the trolling when it is directed at you.
pubster - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 06:54 PM EDT (#360981) #
"I've got no problem calling people out for inflammatory statements"

You never seem to call out yourself for inflammatory comments lol.

I advise that you take your own advice.
hypobole - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#360983) #
No problem with you speaking up when inappropriate and personal attacks occur. I actually commend you for that, but ,geez, lately you've been touchy about little things like posters using one hyperbolic word (rage today) and you write a treatise dealing with that one word.

uo made the strawman Sanchez comment, I played along with my own strawman Fowler comment, since uo was a big proponent of signing him (though to be fair our FO supposedly tried to sign him at the time as well).

It was meant to be playful back and forth and it was civil. And maybe it's just me, but I didn't think of uo's comment as inflammatory, just a bit snarky, like Keith Law.
Nigel - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 08:07 PM EDT (#360988) #
I’ve said for two years that I’d like to see them extend Stroman and I still feel that way. A four year extension (for example) would involve the club taking on some risk so I think there is almost zero chance of that happening. If they won’t or can’t extend him this off-season then they should try and deal him.

I really really don’t want to see Solarte as an every day position player next year.
SK in NJ - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 08:08 PM EDT (#360989) #
The Sanchez comment didn't even make sense because: 1) he hurt his finger not his shoulder/elbow (which could have happened even if they didn't intentionally decrease is workload), 2) he still made all of his scheduled playoff starts so it had no impact on the race or the team's performance in the playoffs, and 3) the pitcher who the team acquired to ease Sanchez's workload in the second half of the season put up a 2.92 ERA and 0.7 WAR in 8 starts (better than Sanchez over that time frame), including getting the win in the WC game.

Bringing up Fowler (or Price, or Edwin, or Jose, or Cobb, etc) actually makes sense because those would have been brutal decisions that were heralded as being great. The Sanchez thing didn't even hurt the team so it's more confusing to bring up than anything else.
hypobole - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#360990) #
Ah, the comment was just a bit of button-pushing.
85bluejay - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 08:26 PM EDT (#360991) #
With regards to Stroman, I've never been a big fan of extending him mostly because of my bias regarding short RHP whom I don't see a track record of aging well - Stroman may be different but I'm not prepared to take that chance and he doesn't seem like a guy to give a "hometown discount" - Some have mentioned we still have 2 more seasons to trade him but the closer a player is to FA the less trade value he generally has and a team acquiring Stroman now would have 3 potential pennant runs with him which would be appealing to teams like the Braves/Phillies/Yankees who believe they have several years of contention .
SK in NJ - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#360992) #
Maybe ugly was running out of button pushing topics with the Morales horse already beaten to death. He went nuts yesterday when I said I don’t think Solarte will get traded so straws might have to be grasped.
hypobole - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 09:08 PM EDT (#360993) #
I dunno, the Morales horse still seems to be prancing around the RC.
CeeBee - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 09:43 PM EDT (#360995) #
"I dunno, the Morales horse still seems to be prancing around the RC."

Don't think its in the running for the Queens Plate either. More like heading for the glue factory ;)
SK in NJ - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 09:50 PM EDT (#360996) #
With Stroman and Sanchez, the time to trade them is either this winter or next trade deadline. I doubt Sanchez with Boras will even consider an extension (and it's questionable whether he's even worth one at this point since 2016 is looking like a mirage + his recent finger issues). Stroman is a real extension candidate if he's healthy, but it takes two to tango. Right now is probably not the right time to trade either one. Certainly not Sanchez, at least.

Where the Jays could make a decent dent in the trade market is in the bullpen. Tepera is a good sell high candidate, Oh is looking great recently, Loup as a lefty will have some value, and maybe Clippard might get a lottery ticket as well. It's too bad about Osuna, because if he was healthy all season and obviously not in legal trouble, the Jays could have made a killing if he was on the market right now.
jerjapan - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 10:33 PM EDT (#360999) #
Pubster, I literally called myself out in the post directly above yours, the one I presume you are replying to. 

sometimes I missed the mark and was offensive myself.
Literally, the comment directly above yours.  I advise you to read before speaking. 
jerjapan - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#361000) #
Fun win though.  Nice to see an efficiently pitched game, nice to see Stroman back in form, and I maintain hope that Clippard might have some trade value.  As in, more than Steve Pearce, less than Joe Smith, so fairly modest, but still, he looked good tonight. 

Sincere question, if Smoak finishes the season with a .233 / .358 / .419 slash line, does his option get picked up?  It goes up in value based on PAs in 2017 and 2018, and he is well on his way to the max 8 million dollar option.  I wouldn't pick his option up as it stands now, $6 million, with a 200K buyout.  But ironically if he keeps on as he is, i.e. mediocre but healthy, he's actually decreasing his chances of his option getting picked up.

uglyone - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 11:05 PM EDT (#361004) #
why are we trading stroman and Sanchez again? because we are now just never paying for any player's free agent years ever again even in prime years because we are so very poor?
uglyone - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 11:07 PM EDT (#361005) #
but seriously - we shut down the league era leader in a playoff race. and he's been injured ever since. I'm sure we can all laugh together about that insanity.
Spifficus - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 11:18 PM EDT (#361006) #
Yup. He's had, what, 3 TJs and 2 Labrum reconstructions, and an arm amputation since then... no, wait. He's had blister issues, like half the league last year when the ball was wonky. Then, he jammed his finger. As doors of all kinds are aware, this sort of thing happens.

As for the Big Shutdown, he, what, skipped a start twice? Had a couple others spaced out a bit more? He still made 30 starts, and 2 playoff starts. In fact, I have to keep checking to make sure you're talking about 2016, because it sounds so absurd.
Spifficus - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 11:20 PM EDT (#361007) #
I'm sorry, 3 skipped starts in the span of a would-be 15 (each with a couple starts in between). Operation Shutdown sounds more like Operation Netflix and Chill.
hypobole - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 11:30 PM EDT (#361008) #
What does one have to do with the other, even though we didn't shut him down. We went to a 6 man rotation.

He jammed his finger away from the ballpark.

I honestly thought you were joking, but wow.

uglyone - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 11:32 PM EDT (#361009) #
could you imagine your team shutting down the league era leader in a playoff race?

it sounds insane but it actually happened.

and would you believe the pitcher has been injury plagued ever since? truth truly can be stranger than fiction.
Spifficus - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 11:37 PM EDT (#361010) #
Yeah, I thought he was joking, too, until the other post. Now it just sounds like he wants to distort things to fit into his anti-Shapiro narrative. There's enough blots on any GM's tenure that you don't have to fret about a couple skipped starts when the pitcher still throws about 70 innings more than his previous career high.
pubster - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 11:43 PM EDT (#361011) #
"Pubster, I literally called myself out in the post directly above yours, the one I presume you are replying to."

LOL. Oh is that the way you call out posters on this site? You seem to be way gentler with yourself.
Spifficus - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 11:47 PM EDT (#361013) #
Actually, it sounded like a reasonable bit of self-acknowledgement to me (in the midst of describing the issue as a whole), and I took it at face value. *shrug*
hypobole - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 11:53 PM EDT (#361014) #
And as for the blister issues that sidelined Sanchez last year, I'll let Marcus Stroman, who knows more about these things explain it.:

Marcus Stroman has an idea who's to blame for all the nagging blisters bothering pitchers lately. He's pointing a finger at Major League Baseball.

"I feel like it's an epidemic that's happening across the big leagues now, a bunch of pitchers getting blisters, guys who have never had blisters before. So for MLB to turn their back to it, I think that's kind of crazy," the Toronto Blue Jays right-hander said. "I have no theory. But obviously, I mean, it's not a coincidence that it's happening to so many guys all of a sudden. It's not a coincidence."

Asked if he was implying all the blisters have something to do with an altered baseball, he would only repeat: "It's not a coincidence."
Spifficus - Friday, June 29 2018 @ 11:58 PM EDT (#361015) #
Speaking of Stroman, I was in-and-out watching the game, but it seemed like that was the best slider he's thrown all year - he was actually finishing most of them, as opposed to leaving hangers up and in on his arm-side. He just looked... right.
scottt - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 08:15 AM EDT (#361017) #
Sanchez with Boras is not as sample as one might think.
Sanchez has not established himself as an ace or even a dominant pitcher.
He might be willing to secure 1 or 2 years of salary now which might give him a better chance at hitting free agency at peak value while hedging his earning in cases he never does.

With Stroman, it might depends on what kind of team the Jays put on the field in the next year.
Unlike Sanchez, Stroman seems to mesh with position players like Bautista and Solarte.
He might also want to skip the next arbitration hearing, it's going to be a rough one.

scottt - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 08:20 AM EDT (#361018) #
We made the playoffs when we shut Sanchez down. That move has worked out.
We just had too many right handed batters who couldn't hit breaking balls on the outside corners to advance.

scottt - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 08:24 AM EDT (#361019) #
Well, if Borucki has to start on Monday, you won't hear me complain.
grjas - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 08:57 AM EDT (#361021) #
It’ll be interesting to see if the Jays can trade Osuna before July 31. While his suspension continues till early August, he can have 15 days of minor league prep in advance, which would give him a few days to demonstrate that he is...hopefully ..rust free before the end of the month. But what would he fetch? I assume he can be traded even though under suspension?
hypobole - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 09:12 AM EDT (#361022) #
Why trade Osuna now? If some team makes a full value offer, go ahead and trade him, but highly doubt the Jays will get anything but low-balled.

Ride it out and let him reestablish his value on the field. Then make the decision.
grjas - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 10:20 AM EDT (#361023) #
Of course there’s no rush to trade him but given some competitive teams have bullpen gaps, he may be one of the best options on the market. That’s why it will be “interesting” to see if they can get value for him.
Gerry - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 11:58 AM EDT (#361024) #
Tepera to the DL, Petricka up.
uglyone - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#361025) #
I don't get the petricka thing at all. he stinks. try someone else.
greenfrog - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#361026) #
Re Tepera: another Gibby favourite (111 appearances over the last year and a half) injured by overuse? Some other preferred relievers who were heavily used and eventually broke down during their time with the Jays: Janssen, Delabar, Cecil

This is just speculation, of course. Pitchers do break down on a regular basis, after all. I wonder if the Jays have data on the correlation between heavy reliever usage and likelihood of injury / underperformance (that year or the following year).
hypobole - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#361028) #
I would guess our pitchers have fewer injuries than average over the past few years, and less serious injuries.
uglyone - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 02:46 PM EDT (#361029) #
Shi Davidi

About last night, #BlueJays GM Ross Atkins says Roberto Osuna “is our closer” once suspension is served:

09:49 - 30 Jun 2018
hypobole - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#361030) #
Pitcher injuries.

John Lamb, the guy the Jays faced about a week ago, needs TJ, the 4th Angel pitcher this year. Angels now have 11 pitchers on the DL.
ISLAND BOY - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#361031) #
He smoaked it ! Nice walk-off win by the Jays.
jerjapan - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#361032) #
Awesome finish!  I would still decline Smoak's option, barring a return to last year's form, but I like the guy and that's a huge moment for us.
Every team needs a Sam Gaviglio.  I don't know how sustainable his run is, but as a former 5th round pick, and a decent career starter in the minors, he looks like the kindof guy that could hold value despite his 89 mph FB.  He still has an option next year and 2 more years of team control.  Nice find,
My guess is the org sees Petrcika as a potential Gaviglio out of the pen.  I don't quite understand how options work for injured players, and Petricka missed some serious time with injuries, but I believe he has options and arb eligibility left past this season.  Otherwise, I don't see anything to like in his performance that explains why he keeps getting opportunities. 

The org is clearly committed to Biagini out of the pen - nice to see, they clearly believe in his stuff and are giving him a chance to work through his struggles without being yo-yoed back and forth from Buffalo.  I'm not sure if it will pan out, but he's an easy guy to pull for. 
greenfrog - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#361033) #
I'm sure the Jays will pick up Smoak's 2019 option. Even if he's a 1 - 1.5 WAR player (as opposed to the 3.5 WAR player he was last year), he remains very good value at 1/6m.
85bluejay - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#361034) #
Sam Gaviglio has 5 maybe 6 years of team control (if he spends time in minors) left from my understanding - the PTBNL to KC for Gaviglio has not yet been named, though I don't think Gaviglio's performance has any bearing on PTBNL - The Royals could use Gaviglio presently.

With Gaviglio pitching decently and the emergence of pitching prospects in the upper minors along with Biagini's poor performance, it looks like the Biagini as a starter experiment is over.
uglyone - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#361035) #
"The org is clearly committed to Biagini out of the pen"

gibby sure is, at least.
85bluejay - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#361036) #
I wonder what it would take to free Raimel Tapia out of Colorado?
jerjapan - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#361037) #
Greenfrog, with the PA incentives in his contract, Smoak's option will be 8 million, barring injury. 

I'm all for targeting blocked young talent like Tapia - just got called up - but I don't want to block our own young talent.  we've got lots of young OFs that are worthy of big league time - Alford seems to have fallen from favour in a lot of people's mind, and out of the BA top 100, but he's heating up and seems healthy again.  I'm sure other orgs are wondering about trying to pick up Alford or Pompey cheaply while their value is down. 

I probably like Pillar more than most of you guys just because I enjoy watching him play so much, warts and all, but he seems like the guy to deal to create opportunities for Smith / Alford / Davis.  Heck, I'd even be open to dealing Hernandez for young pitching if someone was so inclined. 

I assume that there is no PTBNL for Gaviglio, that it ends up being cash?  There is so seldom an actual player, I can't recall the last one we traded / acquired this way .... Tim Lopes?  we got him at the end of the season for that ambidextrous reliever I believe, on Sept 30th for an August 6th trade ... I don't know if you really see players going the other way in a timeframe longer than that? 
hypobole - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#361039) #
jerjapan - you piqued my interest about PTBNL's.

Found this from a few years ago.

All seem to have been sent around a month after the original trade, though.

hypobole - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 07:07 PM EDT (#361040) #
I assume that there is no PTBNL for Gaviglio, that it ends up being cash?

I'm assuming the opposite, since both Gaviglio and a lot of our minor leaguers are doing well. September 21 is 6 months after the trade, so we should know then at the latest.
John Northey - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#361043) #
Thanks for the reminder jerjapan.  I forgot Smoak had that plate appearance clause.  2019 is $6 mil base, $7 mil if 950 PA in 2017/18, $8 mil if 1100 PA in 2017/8.  2017 he had 637 PA and 311 so far this year putting him at 948 before today so he now has cracked the $7 mil mark and needs just 150 more PA to get to $8 mil.
uglyone - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 08:38 PM EDT (#361044) #
smoak is a no brainer option pickup, imo.

and that option makes him more valuable trade bait now, especially.
greenfrog - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 09:00 PM EDT (#361046) #
Smoak is a 31-year-old durable first baseman coming off a 3.5 WAR season who is on pace for around 1 to 1.5 WAR this year. He currently has a wRC+ of 120. To me, that is worth a one-year commitment of $8m. (Thanks for reminding me about the playing time bonuses, jerjapan.)
jerjapan - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 10:35 PM EDT (#361047) #
Hypobole, that is an interesting article about the PTBNLs, some much bigger names than I thought have been dealt after the fact.

Just checked Wikipedia, and Gaviglio was dealt to us Mar. 21st - for cash, per the link to Shi Davidi?  Gaviglio's MLB page says PTNBL, so this is striking me as one of those transactions where there never really is a player, as opposed to trade deadline deals, which I'm guessing are the only real reason for a legit PTBNL - what is the purpose of the 'named later' part?  It kind of has to be for GMs to move quickly at the trade deadline? 

the story below Hypobole's link was on 'the best pitching performance ever' for each of the 30 teams.  What do you guys reckon is the best listed for the Jays?
hypobole - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 10:50 PM EDT (#361049) #
Here is Davidi

"The Toronto Blue Jays acquired right-hander Sam Gaviglio from the Kansas City Royals for cash considerations Wednesday, aiming to bolster their starting pitching depth at triple-A Buffalo after the suspension of Thomas Pannone."

I've got to do a better job of tracking seemingly totally insignificant transactions.
scottt - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#361050) #
I don' t see how Osuna could be traded before he's done with the Canadian legal system.
Depending how the crowd welcomes him back, they can decide to trade him or to keep him over the winter.

scottt - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 10:58 PM EDT (#361051) #
We once traded John MacDonald for a PTBNL who ended up being John MacDonald himself. Yeah. Really. July 22, 2005 to the Tigers back Nov 10, 2005.
scottt - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 11:02 PM EDT (#361053) #
As a vet who was once  a top rated prospect who struggled mightily, Smoak is great guy to have on the roster with a bunch of young guys. Plus he is great at snagging balls in the dirt, hence helping the rookie defense which will see a lot of ground balls with Stroman, Sanchez, Borucki, etc...
lexomatic - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 11:03 PM EDT (#361054) #
I always thought Th e ptbnl was about eligibility after draft, which required a minimum time. No idea if there's any reason other than it gives a delay.
jerjapan - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 11:09 PM EDT (#361055) #
Personally, I think the Jays owe it to Osuna to work with him, and also to the community, rather than trading him.  I get the other position, and agree 100% that it's very, very important to take a stand against violence against women.  To me, it feels like he should stay in this marketplace, and the org should work with him.  Assuming the kid is remorseful and looking to grow as a human, give him a chance to make right, start a foundation / lend his voice to the issue / lead by example -  whatever the right fit might be.   Trading him feels less like a stand against his actions, and more like an easy PR move.
Again, I totally get the other side of this debate, and respect the alternative perspective. 

BTW, I just rewatched the highlights from Kerry Wood's 20K game, in the article below hypobole's link above.  remarkable, remarkable stuff.  game score of 105, and arguably the greatest game ever pitched.  Texas' best game was Nolan Ryan vs. the Jays in 91, a game I recall clearly for being the first game I watched when I was cheering for the other guys, because of history - Ryan striking out Alomar for no hitter number 7. 
James W - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 11:26 PM EDT (#361057) #
My first guess would be Morrow's one-hitter thrown against the Rays, since ESPN loves the Game Score metric, and the 17 K that day would boost it pretty high.
jerjapan - Saturday, June 30 2018 @ 11:41 PM EDT (#361058) #
Good guess James W!  I assumed it was one of Steib's outings, in particular that near perfecto.  I've never seen hitters looked so overmatched as they did against his slider that night. 
James W - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 12:21 AM EDT (#361059) #
Yeah, I would probably pick Stieb, but the game was just so different back then. He "only" struck out 11 in the almost-perfect game, for a Game Score of 90.
hypobole - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 01:08 AM EDT (#361061) #
lexomatic- yes, PTBNL was used to circumvent the MLB rule players couldn't be traded until 1 year after being drafted. So 6 months after the draft a trade has a PTBNL and 6 months later a draft pick ends up as the PTBNL. Trea Turner's PTBNL trade finally changed the rules. Draft picks now can be traded after the WS, but can't be a PTBNL in any trade before then.

Teams still use the PTBNL sometimes, where a team gets a list of players and gets to choose one at a predetermined date within 6 months.
hypobole - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 01:14 AM EDT (#361062) #
since ESPN loves the Game Score metric,

What alternative metrics could they use?
Paul D - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 07:28 AM EDT (#361063) #
Jon gray, who is excellent,has been demoted. He looks bad this year due to high babip and strand numbers, but the underlying numbers are good. I doubt Colorado would trade him, but I hope the TO front office makes a call.
John Northey - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#361064) #
My gut, and hope, is that when Osuna returns and first pitches in Toronto he gets a lot of booing.  Normally I don't want that but in domestic violence cases I'll make an exception.  He needs to earn peoples trust back in a variety of ways.  He needs to put some money (and the Jays should match it) into women's shelters and the like in the Toronto area.  He needs to help make a TV ad that goes against domestic violence without actually asking for us to forgive, but instead saying how unacceptable it is and how it must not happen.  Perhaps with a bit about how he ended up doing it and how guys who think it is OK need to get education/help to stop thinking that way.  I would expect Rogers to air that video for free during Jays broadcasts.  And yes, it will help if he pitches well also. 

That is what I see as the minimum for Osuna to start getting fans back.  Until/unless he does that he should be booed strongly and the Jays should look at trading him if he refuses any of it.  He could make the video and donations as part of a plea bargain with the police over the charge.
grjas - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 11:10 AM EDT (#361066) #
I would hope fans boo him as well. Alomar was booed for spitting in an ump’s face and referencing his ill son; heinous as that was, domestic violence is a lot worse. Happily the Alomar tale eventually became one of redemption and a repeat here, as others have mentioned, would be nice.

Having said that, from a ballclub perspective it would be nice to trade him if a solid return was achievable as I think they have other needs in a rebuilding year. However, the point about resolving the Canadian legal issues first is a key one, and I guess could eliminate this option.
hypobole - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 12:58 PM EDT (#361068) #
From Buster Olney:

There are teams thinking there will be more sellers than buyers. Teams are going to wait for prices to drop as sellers get desperate near the deadline. The Jays stuff is basically what we all know other than the very last line of this snippet:

"Jays’ J.A. Happ is arguably the best and the most cost-efficient starting pitcher currently on the market. Not surprisingly, Happ is also attached to what is said to be a high asking price. The 35-year-old lefty has held opponents to a .211 average this season, with 106 strikeouts in 97 innings, and because he’ll be eligible for free agency after this year, Toronto is almost certainly going to move him. “He’s a guy you’d be comfortable starting in a Game 1, 2 or 3 of the postseason,” said one rival evaluator."
Dewey - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#361075) #
Maybe some of you know far more than I do about the circumstances of Osuna’s case; but the self-righteous ’jail Hilary’ kind of remarks here appall me. (And, by the way, do you know what started the Alomar incident? What Hirshbeck said that caused Alomar to spit at him? Another not-as-simple as-it-seems episode.)

Of course, in the Twitterverse things are cut-and-dried, black-and-white, easy-peasy. Let’s wait to see what actually transpired in the Osuna matter, if we’re ever told. Atkins has said he’s the closer when he returns, and presumably Atkins knows more about the circumstances than any of us do.

I guess booing Osuna would be an instance of ‘virtue-signaling’, would it?
hypobole - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#361076) #
Dewey, I'm not in the "boo Osuna" camp, although I'm definitely not in the "cheer Osuna" camp (if there still is one) either.

What we do know is that Osuna was suspended 75 games, a suspension both Osuna and the MLBPA accepted without appeal,despite having the right to do so. So there is definitely fire of some sort behind the smoke.

And as for Atkins, Osuna is an asset. It is Atkins job is to protect assets.
Eephus - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#361077) #
Back to the actual game for a moment, that was a pretty spectacular catch by Pillar.
hypobole - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 04:10 PM EDT (#361078) #
Even Castellanos thought so. Can't remember the last time I saw a guy applaud a catch that just robbed him of a HR.
Chuck - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#361079) #
Buck and Pat and their old timey baseball are beyond tiresome. What crimes are we being punished for? Are we in the middle of a Sartre play?

When evaluating the Braves starting pitching, Buck cites W-L record. Teams and players are evaluated defensively based on number of errors. Hitters are evaluated on "production", code for RBI, when not on their batting average (as Iglesis was yesterday). Strikeouts are still evil (when assessing Judge earlier this year, Buck was tempering the superlatives because of the high strikeout count). Protection in the batting order. Players making everyone around them better. Pitchers knowing how to win. Their shtick is indistinguishable from parody.

We are almost a fifth of the way through this century but the team's announcers are still stuck in the last one.

James W - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#361080) #
What alternative metrics could they use?

I don't know. It wasn't really a criticism, just pointed out that it was predictable they would use Game Score.
John Northey - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#361081) #
So Dewey what would you need to see this as not 'self-righteous'?  We already have charges, a penalty from MLB that Osuna accepted without appeal.  So do you need video?  For Osuna to be put in jail?  How much before you would go 'hmmm....maybe he is guilty of doing something very wrong'?  I have no trouble with giving the benefit of the doubt but each step removes more doubt on his case to the point where booing seems mild as a punishment.  I guarantee opposing teams fans will do things a lot stronger than booing - from chants to signs.  Osuna will wear this for a long time, perhaps the rest of his career.  If he wants to move on he will need to do a strong PR move followed by more moves and a very clean record from now on. 
James W - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#361082) #
Dewey already said above:

Let's wait to see what actually transpired in the Osuna matter, if we're ever told.
BlueJayWay - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#361083) #
Osuna seems to have done something, but I would also like to know exactly what.
John Northey - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 06:40 PM EDT (#361084) #
That basically says to never do anything since odds are unless a trial happens we'll never have a clue.  I'm betting strongly on a plea bargain involving community service and him getting a charge that is much milder with no jail time, and a clean enough record that border crossings won't be a nightmare for him.  Unless, of course, this is a much worse situation that we know of (ie: serious injuries).  I suspect MLB giving the sentence it did suggests serious but not nightmare level.  Easily enough for tons of boos but not enough for a team to cut him.
scottt - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 07:59 PM EDT (#361085) #
Typically, domestic cases involving millionaires don't go to court. They just settle.

However, what I've read is that hotel staff called the cops, so the crown might decide to go forward with the court case even without the victim's support. But again, that's probably just a matter of how much money is spent on the lawyers.

It's going take time either way. Lawyers are paid by the hour.

bpoz - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 08:49 PM EDT (#361088) #
Happ had a rough outing today. Great catch by Pillar.
Mike Green - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 09:24 PM EDT (#361092) #
I don't boo Aroldis Chapman.  I understand that he was in a domestic dispute, may or may not have physically assaulted his girlfriend, and then apparently shot off his gun while his girlfriend was in the bushes hiding.  She called 911. 

Why don't I boo him?  I obviously don't approve of what he did, assuming that any grain of it is true, which I suspect it is.  Personally, I prefer to boo a player about something I know about and something that is fresh.  For that reason, booing for me is almost always about baseball.  If the Blue Jays tried to acquire him, I'd probably write about it in awfully disparaging terms here....

And as for Osuna, I won't be booing.  He likely did something wrong months ago, and hasn't pitched since.  He may have difficulties with his immigration status as a result of what he did.  It may be indeed be that the best thing is for the club to send him on even at reduced value.  There would be worse things than a club which had a zero tolerance for domestic violence approach. 
hypobole - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 10:16 PM EDT (#361095) #
When the Yankees acquired Chapman for a bunch of drek, they made themselves the beneficiaries of domestic violence. There is something fundamentally wrong with that.

If a team gives a fair offer for Osuna and the Jays feel it's best for him to move on, so be it. But I hope the Jays don't fell compelled to (or aren't forced into by ownership) rid themselves of the Osuna problem by dealing him for pennies on the dollar.
85bluejay - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#361097) #
If the Jays rotation in August consisted of some combination of Sanchez/Gaviglio/Borucki/Pannone/SFR/Harris - I wouldn't complain.
85bluejay - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 10:53 PM EDT (#361098) #
I've read that the Phillies are willing to include Sixto Sanchez in a deal for a TOR starter - Ross Atkins should let them know that Marcus Stroman is available - Phillies would get 3 potential pennant runs with him before FA - Also I expect they would extend him.
pubster - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 11:06 PM EDT (#361099) #
"He needs to earn peoples trust back in a variety of ways. He needs to put some money (and the Jays should match it) into women's shelters and the like in the Toronto area. He needs to help make a TV ad that goes against domestic violence without actually asking for us to forgive, but instead saying how unacceptable it is and how it must not happen. Perhaps with a bit about how he ended up doing it and how guys who think it is OK need to get education/help to stop thinking that way."

I don't think he has to do any of that. If he pitches well people wont care.
85bluejay - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 11:11 PM EDT (#361101) #
David Price - You make me proud doing to Boston what you're doing - remember those checks will keep coming until 2022 - well played Sir!
hypobole - Sunday, July 01 2018 @ 11:43 PM EDT (#361106) #
Yankees on pace for 108 wins. Boston, 107. One of them will be a Wild Card.

Seattle on pace for 103 wins. That's only good for 2nd WC.

Cleveland is on pace for under 90 wins, but has a 99% chance of winning its division, because even the Jays have a better record than the other 4 AL Central teams.
John Northey - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 09:31 AM EDT (#361111) #
I hate to say it, but pubster is probably right.  If Osuna pitches well too many will go 'so what'.  Much like strong church goers voted Trump as long as appeared likely to put justices on the court who would do what they wanted.  The old 'I will ignore that you are repulsive if you do what I want'. 

As to Chapman vs Osuna - Chapman got 30 days, or less than half of what Osuna got.  His case was (via an old article) "Chapman allegedly choked his 22-year-old girlfriend, Cristina Barnea, and fired eight shots in the garage of his Davie, Fla., home. On Jan. 21, prosecutors announced that they had decided not to prosecute the hard-throwing left-hander, citing conflicting accounts and insufficient evidence that would have made a conviction unlikely.".  Given Osuna got double that penalty one has to think the case against him is stronger than that by a good margin.
John Northey - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#361112) #
4 teams on pace for 103+ wins.  Yikes.  Looks like the 2015/16 windows was the best chance for the Jays.  2018 is a no hope year (unless a miracle happens with an all-time comeback/collapse and even then the playoffs for the AL would be nuts).  To put 103 wins in perspective - the Jays have NEVER won 100 games (record is 99 in 1985) in the regular season.  Mix in playoffs and you get 102 in 1985 (99 regular, 3 post),  104 in 1992 (96 regular, 8 post), 103  in 1993 (95 regular, 8 post), 2015 came close with 98 (93 + 5).  1989, 1991, 2016 didn't really get that close to 100.

So 2019 might be a write off one would think.  However, AL teams winning 100+ recently have gone in the next year...
2017: Cleveland (on pace for 90 this year); Houston (on pace for over 100 again)
2009: Yankees (103 then 95)
2008: LAA (100 then 97)
2004: Yankees (101 then 95)
2003: Yankees (101 then 101)
2002: Yankees (103 then 101), Oakland (103 then 96)
2001: Seattle (116 then 93), Oakland (102 then 103)

That covers this century.  10 teams cracked 100 wins.  3 got 100 wins the next year with a 4th on pace for it.  So 40% of the time repeating.  Thus one could expect of the 4 teams doing that so far this year that 2 or 3 will not do it again next year but will probably have 95+ wins, and most certainly will have 90+ unless they do a Marlins (dump everyone after a great year and suck).  So 2019 is probably a good year to be rebuliding which I suspect all other AL teams are factoring into decisions now.  Outside of maybe the AL Central which just sucks.
85bluejay - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 10:16 AM EDT (#361117) #
The Chapman saga should serve as a guide for the Jays in the Osuna case - The Reds made a hasty decision to dump Chapman for PR reasons and ended up with nothing, while the Yankees took the short term PR hit and scored big with the Cubs trade - Surely Shapiro can use this argument with ownership & likely the Jays will at least attempt to rebuild Osuna's value before deciding to Keep/Trade him.
scottt - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 10:30 AM EDT (#361118) #
Well, the Jays are 22nd in batting average, 21st in OBP, 13th in OPS, 7th in HR, 13th in Run scored, 28th in stolen bases.

That's not good.

25th in starter ERA, 16th in strikeouts, but 23rd in walks, 24th in hits allowed, 22nd in HR allowed.

Not good at all.

They are 18th in bullpen ERA, 26th in hits, 25th in HR allowed.

It's not like Boston and NYY is killing them. They are 3 games behind the Rays which is not a good team.

bpoz - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#361120) #
I think Houston has the most quality depth. Would they have the best of scott's rankings? NYY I suppose have the most HRs but probably not the highest scoring offense.
uglyone - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#361121) #

5th in iso power
12th in bb%
11th in slg
13th in wrc+
16th in runs
17th in k%
23rd in obp
24th in avg

all around average offense - which is actually pretty impressive given that their only legit stud hitter has been a non factor all year. With a normal Donaldson it would likely have been a solidly above average offense.


19th in bb%
20th in fip-
20th in k%
22nd in xfip-
23rd in runs
24th in era-

solidly below average pitching. obviously hurt by having arguably their best SP and best RP mostly non-factors so far.
bpoz - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 11:47 AM EDT (#361122) #
Thanks UO. Currently in the bottom third of the 30 teams, record wise. V bad May. Even a great July may not help our production rankings.

So I feel strongly/predict that we will be over .500 by the end of July but still rank in the bottom third in league production.

Therefore we are sellers at the trade deadline.
greenfrog - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 11:47 AM EDT (#361123) #
I don't really see how trading Osuna to another organization would make the Jays more ethical than if they continued to keep him on their own roster and helped him address any underlying issues he may have.
hypobole - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#361124) #
"4 teams on pace for 103+ wins. Yikes."

How rare is this?

From Elias: This is the first time in a non-strike-shortened season in the modern era (since 1900) that four or more teams from a single league entered July with a winning percentage of .600 or better.
hypobole - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 12:05 PM EDT (#361125) #
"Currently in the bottom third of the 30 teams, record wise."

Actually bpoz, we're not. There are 10 teams below us in the standings. We're almost in the bottom third.
bpoz - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#361126) #
Thanks hypobole.
Mylegacy - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#361127) #
Today is International Signing Day.

BA is reporting the Jays have:

Orelvis Martinez, ss, Dominican Republic (No. 7 prospect) -- $3.5 million signing bonus

Javier D’Orazio, c, Venezuela

Amell Brazoban, of, Dominican Republic
Mylegacy - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#361128) #
Future Blue Jays has reported:

"Ben Badler of Baseball America was in the Domincian Republic this week to catch MLB’s Showcase of top international talent, who notes Martinez:

Has fast hands and a calm, easy swing that generates power and loft from right-center over to his pull side.

At 5’11″/180, the 16 year old still has plenty of room for growth, and is not projected to stay at SS in the long term. His bat and body seem to indicate an ultimate landing at 3B.

The Blue Jays have shown a preference over the past two years for toolsy, athletic players, with make up being a key component – “the 6th tool” as Blue Jays Director of Player Development Gil Kim has termed it.

Martinez’ 6.98 time in the 60 isn’t exactly slow, but it’s not a time you would expect from a natural SS, again lending support to the idea that he’s moved off of the position eventually. His bat will likely be his calling card, anyway."
jerjapan - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 12:41 PM EDT (#361129) #
couldn't agree more Greenfrog, and Pubster is also likely right too, the fan base doesn't pay the sort of molecular attention that we Bauxites are prone too.  Not to dis "Joe Fan'.  My GF would likely remember that Osuna did something awful the first time he pitches again, feel disappointed and then likely never think him again unless I was going on about his trade value or some new wrinkle in his delivery or repertoire.  I wonder - based on nothing really, just wondering - if sentences from pro sports associations are actually getting more severe, given the increased public awareness in the #meetoo era?  I guess I'm suggesting that it doesn't necessarily follow that Osuna's offense was much worse than Chapman's?
Orelvis Martinez is pretty intriguing... and we've hit homeruns with our last few high profile IFAs.  gotta be worth some of the single malt, I assume?
A Sixto Sanchez type prospect would certainly raise the stakes on a potential Stroman deal, but do the added years of control appeal enough to offset his down year?  He looked great last time out, but I don't typically like selling low on a talent like Stro. 

aarne13 - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 12:44 PM EDT (#361130) #
With Osuna, I'm fine with him coming back. I wouldn't trade him just for the sake of good PR. He is still an asset, if the Jays receive a "no-brainer" trade offer then go with it.
People seem to think that all athletes are role models/heroes etc. The MSM does build these guys up to make them seem much better than they actually are.

Sooner or later stuff comes out on social media showing how flawed some of these athletes are. To think that Osuna, Reyes, Aroldis etc are outliers is just wrong.
Just like people got over Reyes and Aroldis, people will do the same with Osuna. They will just view him differently.

"I'm not a role model... Just because I dunk a basketball doesn't mean I should raise your kids". -Charles Barkley
CeeBee - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#361132) #
pretty much agree with all that you said, Jer
John Northey - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#361135) #
Very good point aarne13.  That Barkley quote is one all parents should pay attention to.  The only way athletes are role models is as a role model on how to become a pro athlete.  Just like one shouldn't ask a CEO how to raise kids, but instead ask how they reached the level they did in business.  You can be great at anything and suck at important stuff like ethics.  Heck, just look at the president of the USA - I wouldn't trust him around any of my daughters, but clearly he knows how to sell.
Mike Green - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 03:08 PM EDT (#361136) #
I am ready for the return of Smoak and Travis. 
Mylegacy - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#361137) #
Ben Badler has added:

Wilfran Astudillo, ss, Venezuela
Eephus - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#361138) #
Fun game at least. Morales at 3B was both hilarious and terrifying, it had that feel of playing your beer league softball slugger out of position because your team is short guys.
SK in NJ - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#361139) #
With the Jays out of it, I am fully behind playing Morales at every position imaginable. He's pitched and now played an inning at third. The outfield, 2B, SS, etc, are all options for later this season. He's not being released and he will be here through 2019. Let's make it entertaining at least.
scottt - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#361142) #
I like to separate starting pitching from the bullpen because it's mostly different guys.
Borucki looks promising. Gaviglio is a good 5th or 6th starter.
Garcia has been a disaster and should be gone. Happ will be hard to replace.

Maybe Mayza steps up as the primary lefty. Maybe Biagini returns as the long guy.
Tepera has been a decent setup, but the pen has been too homer prone.

Could still be a fun team next year, but they need to promote Jansen.

Mylegacy - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 08:54 PM EDT (#361145) #
Ben Badler has now added:

Gary David, c, Venezuela
Leo Callez, ss, Venezuela
Jorman Gonzalez, rhp, Venezuela
Wilgenis Alvarado, lhp, Venezuela
Gerry - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#361147) #
A couple of weeks ago I suggested I had Borucki rated higher than SRF and some here expressed surprise at that. I think we have seen how good a pitcher Borucki is and can be and that brings up a bigger point. Many people get obsessed with fastball speeds and use that as a base for valuing prospects. Borucki shows the value of being able to hit your spots and deceive the hitters. Remember fastball speed isn't everything.
bpoz - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 09:22 PM EDT (#361148) #
You are correct Gerry.
uglyone - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 10:07 PM EDT (#361149) #
Gerry - my questioning of rating borucki higher than SRF wasn't based on not liking Borucki. quite the opposite.

myself, I want both in the rotation ASAP.
Mylegacy - Monday, July 02 2018 @ 11:14 PM EDT (#361150) #
Ben's latest addition:

Javier Perdomo, lhp, Venezuela

Now, perhaps a wee dram...
snowman - Tuesday, July 03 2018 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#361169) #
Catching up on my reading after the long weekend in Canada, I have to say, I'm a little surprised at the vengeful attitude by some here, particularly John Northey, toward Osuna. Even without knowing the facts, I think we all agree that it looks very likely he did wrong. If it's truly domestic abuse, obviously nobody will defend that. But when the league and team have dealt with him by levying a long suspension, with millions of dollars of lost income, and the justice system will (eventually) adjudicate the matter, why does John Northey feel we should then welcome him back with boos and whatever other forms of contempt? Does he not trust the justice system to deal with the matter? Surely you don't go to the local prison every morning to throw tomatoes at the convicts being released after serving their time?

Come on John, if Osuna has served whatever punishment the courts demand of him, along with the loss of income (how many of us have ever been punished that severely for our offences?), then as far as I'm concerned, the matter is settled. I don't feel a need to seek revenge by running the guy out of town, or denying him employment, or perpetually reminding him of his worst moment. Especially someone who (we seem to have quickly forgotten) already has had mental health issues.
snowman - Tuesday, July 03 2018 @ 06:47 PM EDT (#361170) #
I should add that John's digs at conservatives and "church goers" seem unnecessary as well. Perhaps most here are politically leftists, but I assume all are welcome to discuss the Jays on this site. The little drive-by snipes at conservatives have been an occasional occurrence here since the days of Stephen Harper, and even George Bush. Not a huge deal; I've been ignoring the jabs for years, but I assume people don't want politics on the site. That's what's annoying about the drive-by's - the guy responding seems like the one getting political.

About your comment on "church goers" ignoring how "repulsive" a candidate is if he gives them what they want - you ignore the fact that many people consider Clinton to be even more repulsive. Heck, I consider Justin Trudeau repulsive too. Why does your opinion count, but not mine? No democracy? There should be room for everyone's opinions.
jerjapan - Tuesday, July 03 2018 @ 08:12 PM EDT (#361179) #
Hey Snowman, if you are just getting caught up on the reading now, I'd like to opine that the conversation around Osuna has been a good, thoughtful, fair one, balanced and offering multiple perspectives.  many of the comments that you are attributing to John have in fact been expressed by a variety of posters.  I'm with you, FWIW, and strongly believe that once the system punishment has been meted out, there is no need to consider additional consequences for a kid that you rightly note has dealt with mental health issues.  I deal with those myself, so I very much appreciate you referencing that, but I also am well aware that I have behaved badly at times during a fit of depression, and it does me no good to disown those actions.
As for the political stuff, well..... your post is more political than any of John Northey's that I recall!  I would add that John is a consistent Green Party candidate in a tough riding for Greens ... this is someone who invests a lot into the political process for what seem to me to be sincere, democracy-building principles.  John, you have referred to this publicly on this site, so I assume you don't mind me mentioning this?

As for the drive-by disses, I think most / all would agree that this site is better left apolitical.  I reviewed the thread and didn't see any, but trust your recall here.   that said, this is a pretty grim time - families being separated and a seismic shift in the supreme court, police shootings, a war on the media and 'truth' generally .... Perhaps you folks on the right should stop being such snowflakes when people get outraged over some pretty outrageous stuff.  I'm more with what Elie Wiesel said. 
Parker - Wednesday, July 04 2018 @ 09:21 AM EDT (#361202) #
...I think most / all would agree that this site is better left apolitical.

Perhaps you folks on the right should stop being such snowflakes...

I guess you're NOT one of the "most/all" who agree that the site is better left apolitical?

It's a little weird to see an educated person make both those statements in the same frickin' comment.
grjas - Wednesday, July 04 2018 @ 11:40 AM EDT (#361225) #
On the one hand I personally don’t boo anyone; I just stop cheering for them. On the other hand, many fans use booing as a sign of displeasure which is fine if that’s their preference.

What does seem odd to me is the view that players can be booed for minor transgressions on the field but not for abusing women.
jerjapan - Wednesday, July 04 2018 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#361249) #
It's a little weird to see an educated person make both those statements in the same frickin' comment.
Weird or not, I intended it that way Parker, to make a point.  The false narrative that their is implicit bias against conservatives embedded in the media is categorically false logic, and harmful to discourse in general.  and unless I'm missing something, this forum is almost entirely apolitical. 
Parker - Wednesday, July 04 2018 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#361257) #
"Weird or not, I intended it that way Parker, to make a point."

What was the point you were trying to make?

By making hostile remarks about right-wingers in a heretofore apolitical discussion (as you said in your post) you're guilty of exactly what you're preaching against. The only point of yours I can see is that you're a hypocrite.

"The false narrative that their is implicit bias against conservatives embedded in the media is categorically false logic, and harmful to discourse in general."

I don't pay attention the mainstream media at all, so I wouldn't know about your false narrative bias thing. Again, what was the point of this? Who here was claiming any sort of political bias by the mainstream media that you felt you had to argue against?

As well, you used the wrong "there". You're not an English teacher, are you?

Also, don't Google the definition for "snowflake". I do not think it means what you think it means. Getting pointlessly outraged over stuff (like your fake media bias) is the sort of thing snowflakes do. Being dismissive of that outrage is about as far from snowflake behavior as you can get.

Finally, for the record: I'm a libertarian, and I have contempt in equal measure for both libtards and rightards. You're going to have to keep to yourself the "alt-right troll" remark I know you're dying to make.

I won't comment any further on this subject so maybe we can get back to being apolitical here.
Parker - Wednesday, July 04 2018 @ 04:51 PM EDT (#361258) #
Oops, that should have read, "I don't pay attention to the mainstream media..."

Don't worry though, I'm not an English teacher either.
scottt - Wednesday, July 04 2018 @ 07:09 PM EDT (#361260) #
As opposed to alternative media?
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