Just one more strike...
But NOOOOOO!!
Well at least Towers pitched another good game. When Josh is keeping the ball in the ballpark, he is GOLD.
I feel a bit bad for Batista. Earlier in the year, he kept getting criticised for being "too cute" and not challenging hitters. Now, he's being more aggressive and what happens?
Gets ahead 0-2 to Escalona, throws a strike, basehit: Blown Save.
Gets ahead 0-2 to Lee, throws a strike, basehit: Blown Save.
Nonetheless, I hope the arguements that Batista is an upper-level closer have died...
I feel a bit bad for Batista. Earlier in the year, he kept getting criticised for being "too cute" and not challenging hitters. Now, he's being more aggressive and what happens?
Gets ahead 0-2 to Escalona, throws a strike, basehit: Blown Save.
Gets ahead 0-2 to Lee, throws a strike, basehit: Blown Save.
Nonetheless, I hope the arguements that Batista is an upper-level closer have died...
Throwing an 0-0 strike is aggressive. Throwing an 0-2 strike is, well, something else.
One of these days I'm going to throw something at my tv... I love sitting for two and half hours enjoying the game and then having the whole day ruined in about five seconds. GRRRRR.
Man, that's painful. Batista is turning into a bit of a minefield, isn't he? But is Towers ever having a great season. I mean, great. 173IP and counting, 10 wins (which could easily be higher with a less anemic offense), and an ERA of 3.91? From Josh Towers?
having an 0-2 pitch smoked for a homerun is almost as bad as not being able to throw strikes. Maybe Batista really just doesn't know where his pitches are going most of the time?
I don't know if that's true.
He threw a cutter down and in to Lee that Lee swung overtop of for strike two, and then tried to go back to the same place for strike three. Maybe the cutter didn't cut enough or he missed his location ever so slightly, or maybe Lee made the adjustment. Hard to tell, I guess. But it's not like he grooved an eephus over the heart of the plate.
He threw a cutter down and in to Lee that Lee swung overtop of for strike two, and then tried to go back to the same place for strike three. Maybe the cutter didn't cut enough or he missed his location ever so slightly, or maybe Lee made the adjustment. Hard to tell, I guess. But it's not like he grooved an eephus over the heart of the plate.
Maybe Batista has to occasionally throw something...ANYTHING...outside of the fastball. He get singled and occasionally homered to death because he's cut his nineteen pitch repetoire down to one and now uses nothing to keep the hitters off balance. He's at the mercy of his fastball movement creating outs and when it doesn't move like the 0-2 to Lee then he gets hurt.
And once again the Jays get beat by the long ball. Struggling to score against the Devil Rays is not a good thing.
And once again the Jays get beat by the long ball. Struggling to score against the Devil Rays is not a good thing.
I'm giving up commenting on Batista. He's not an ace closer, but who else do we have to do that job? Speier has proven to be just as erratic with the game on the line.
My new "thing" is: Damn, we really, really miss Carlos Delgado.
Doesn't it pain you to think what this lineup could be with Carlos in it as well?
PS - When will Josh Towers ever get any respect? Under 80 pitches, tossing a gem, 9th inning leadoff batter gets on with a "hit" that really could have been fielded and *poof* he's outta there. Is it because he's skinny? Do people think he's just fluking out all the time? (I kind of feel that might be the case some of the time. What an unusual phenomenon this Josh Towers is.)
My new "thing" is: Damn, we really, really miss Carlos Delgado.
Doesn't it pain you to think what this lineup could be with Carlos in it as well?
PS - When will Josh Towers ever get any respect? Under 80 pitches, tossing a gem, 9th inning leadoff batter gets on with a "hit" that really could have been fielded and *poof* he's outta there. Is it because he's skinny? Do people think he's just fluking out all the time? (I kind of feel that might be the case some of the time. What an unusual phenomenon this Josh Towers is.)
SS Adams*
LF Catalanotto**
CF Wells
1B Delgado
DH Hilllenbrand*
3B Koskie*
C Zaun
RF Rios**
2B Hudson
* subbing with Hill
** subbing with Johnson
THAT is a well-balanced attack.
LF Catalanotto**
CF Wells
1B Delgado
DH Hilllenbrand*
3B Koskie*
C Zaun
RF Rios**
2B Hudson
* subbing with Hill
** subbing with Johnson
THAT is a well-balanced attack.
When will Josh Towers ever get any respect?
He's got mine...
After the leadoff hit, it's tough to leave Towers in to face the go-ahead run. Especially when that hitter is Tampa's best LH power hitter. Gibbons likes to get his starter out of the game after they put the tying run on and before they put the lead run on.
Ok, Schoeneweis for Huff both makes sense and works. But now the problem is you don't really want Schoenweis facing Tampa's best RH power hitter - who, this year, really is Jonny Gomes. So in comes Batista, who gets Gomes for you...
Oh, yes, yes, it all makes some kind of sense. At least it does down here in the seventh circle of Dante's Inferno.
Why didn't he just throw a cutter outside, it looks as if Lee was sitting on the inside fastball (Green might have been sending him signals) so why not just throw something outside and in the dirt?
You can't throw the same pitch 3 times in a row...
You can't throw the same pitch 3 times in a row...
Nonetheless, I hope the arguements that Batista is an upper-level closer have died...
Who ever said he was upper-level? I think most of the commentary has been that he's not garbage and he shouldn't be released or traded away for nothing, and that, record-wise, he's been pretty average.
Who ever said he was upper-level? I think most of the commentary has been that he's not garbage and he shouldn't be released or traded away for nothing, and that, record-wise, he's been pretty average.
You can't throw the same pitch 3 times in a row...
Mo Rivera does okay at it.
If Batista makes Lee look stupid w/ that pitch again, everybody is happy. It's Baseball dude.
Mo Rivera does okay at it.
If Batista makes Lee look stupid w/ that pitch again, everybody is happy. It's Baseball dude.
@#$%@#^$# Batista!!!
That was my initial reaction after Travis Lee homered. I have been very supportive of Batista throughout his horrible July/August, but this might has swayed me a little. I still think he is servicable, but his late inning dramatics is enough to even make an healthy 19year old have a heart attack, or break out in rage and smash the television.
I don't mind having those heart attacks, as long as he gets the job done. But then again, I have to agree with Keith that we don't have any better options in the bullpen. Chulk/Speier/Fraser/Schoenweis are all solid relievers but none of them are star closer quality. All of our options are gonna give us the same results.
That was my initial reaction after Travis Lee homered. I have been very supportive of Batista throughout his horrible July/August, but this might has swayed me a little. I still think he is servicable, but his late inning dramatics is enough to even make an healthy 19year old have a heart attack, or break out in rage and smash the television.
I don't mind having those heart attacks, as long as he gets the job done. But then again, I have to agree with Keith that we don't have any better options in the bullpen. Chulk/Speier/Fraser/Schoenweis are all solid relievers but none of them are star closer quality. All of our options are gonna give us the same results.
"Throwing an 0-0 strike is aggressive. Throwing an 0-2 strike is, well, something else."
There have been countless times pitchers have thrown an 0-2 strike and just because this one ended up out of the park doesn't necessarily define the pitcher. Everyone would have been praising Miggy right now if that ball stayed in the park, but things didn't go his way tonight.. give the guy a break and Braby21 is right, its the uncertainties of baseball that makes it exciting and sometimes depressing to watch.
There have been countless times pitchers have thrown an 0-2 strike and just because this one ended up out of the park doesn't necessarily define the pitcher. Everyone would have been praising Miggy right now if that ball stayed in the park, but things didn't go his way tonight.. give the guy a break and Braby21 is right, its the uncertainties of baseball that makes it exciting and sometimes depressing to watch.
How painful is it watching Chris Carpenter absolutely dominate the National League? Imagine J.P. didn't give up on Carp so quickly and we had Doc AND Carp in the rotation. This season would have been very different. And if Carlos was still in the mix the Jays could have won this division. Oh well. It was obviously not meant to be.
Chulk/Speier/Fraser/Schoenweis are all solid relievers but none of them are star closer quality. All of our options are gonna give us the same results.
Do you have anything to back this up? At all? What does this even mean? "Star closer quality" -- what is that? Speier and Frasor have both pitched better than Batista has this year, and Frasor looked quite good in the "closer" role last year from what I remember. I think Speier probably would too.
To Xoom, I disagree with your assertion that everyone would be praising Batista if that had been a flyout to the wall. The fans on this site are (usually) more intelligent than that, and are capable of analysing what happened, instead of looking at the final result. For example, I don't remember anyone praising Batista after last nights outing, where he looked extremely shaky, but "got the job done." In fact, he looked better tonight than he did last night, so I guess everything evens out. I can't imagine anyone on this site saying "Well, he gives up a lot of baserunners, and seems to get into a lot of jams, but he's 25 for 28 in save opportunities so he's awesome!"
One other thing I want to talk about: The Gross bunt. No, I'm not talking about how Gross failed to get it down, I'm talking about why it was called for. I do not understand why you would ever sacrifice bunt when you're WINNING. This doesn't make sense. You have taken the lead. You have two runners on, no outs, and are facing one of the worst teams in baseball. Go for the jugular!! This is where you want to bust the game open. Play for four, five, runs. Make the game no contest. It infuriates me that Gibbons was playing for one run there. I find that even more annoying that Gross' failure to get it down (although that is getting annoying too.)
Blegh. Just an annoying game all around. We haven't even mentioned getting no-hit by Seth freaking McClung for the first five innings.
I didn't even watch the game, but I want add onto the bunt comments. WHY bunt in that situation when you're winning and this game doesn't mean much as far as standings go. I can see if you have a lockdown bullpen trying to get the guaranteed insurance run in a VERY meaningful game. BUT if you're playing Tampa Bad, you're winning, you have a prospect who you called up to see if he can get hits in this type of sitution...then why bunt?
I know I was worried when I heard the announcers say that we were likely to see the pen used in the 9th. Here is Towers, under 80 pitches heading into the 9th inning and he only gets to face one batter? The Jays are not getting into the post season at this point, so why not see if Towers can finish what he started? Why bring in your left handed specialist and your closer when you already know what you have in them? September is about either chasing the playoffs or finding out what you have. Towers is fighting for a slot in the rotation in '06 as are all others in the rotation outside of Chacin. If one of them is having a great game you leave them in and see what they do with it, can they hold the lead? Can they close it out?
If the Jays were in the fight for the playoffs then, yes, it makes sense to use every bullet in your gun in the 9th. They are not. Lets see what Towers has in him for closing out his starts.
If the Jays were in the fight for the playoffs then, yes, it makes sense to use every bullet in your gun in the 9th. They are not. Lets see what Towers has in him for closing out his starts.
re: Chris Carpenter
At the time it really was the right move, I believe, for the Blue Jays to cut him. I don't know the exact details, but it's something about him heading into arbitration or free agency after long absences with injury; they would have had to commit $5-$6 million per season to a guy they couldn't be sure would ever be an effective pitcher again.
St. Louis took a chance on him, and it paid off; but they could pick him up for a mere fraction of what it would have cost the Jays to hang on to him.
Al Leiter, Chris Carpenter, these things happen.
Tougher ones to swallow are letting these guys walk, guaranteed commodities: Tom Henke (read of Magpie's "curse of Tom Henke hex on the Blue Jays") ; Carlos Delgado (took a lot of run power away with him).
I haven't been following the post-Blue Jay carrer of Kelvim Escobar. How's he working out for the Angels?
At the time it really was the right move, I believe, for the Blue Jays to cut him. I don't know the exact details, but it's something about him heading into arbitration or free agency after long absences with injury; they would have had to commit $5-$6 million per season to a guy they couldn't be sure would ever be an effective pitcher again.
St. Louis took a chance on him, and it paid off; but they could pick him up for a mere fraction of what it would have cost the Jays to hang on to him.
Al Leiter, Chris Carpenter, these things happen.
Tougher ones to swallow are letting these guys walk, guaranteed commodities: Tom Henke (read of Magpie's "curse of Tom Henke hex on the Blue Jays") ; Carlos Delgado (took a lot of run power away with him).
I haven't been following the post-Blue Jay carrer of Kelvim Escobar. How's he working out for the Angels?
Does anyone else think Aaron Hill looks like Greg Kinnear?
"Mo Rivera does okay at it.
If Batista makes Lee look stupid w/ that pitch again, everybody is happy. It's Baseball dude."
First of all, Mariano Rivera is an elite closer, and one of the best in the history of the game of baseball. Don't compare his exploits and pitching methods to Miguel Batista, because they are uncomparable. Rivera has one of the best cutters in baseball, and he is actually able to control it. Not to mention the fact that he usually doesn't throw it 3 times in a row in exactly the same location.
If Batista strikes Lee out with that pitch, I still question why he throws it there in that situation. And BTW, when did I ever say the game wasn't baseball?
For further reference, I have no problem with Batista as a closer this year, or into the future,I was merely commenting on my displeasure with his pitch selection in that 0-2 situation today.
If Batista makes Lee look stupid w/ that pitch again, everybody is happy. It's Baseball dude."
First of all, Mariano Rivera is an elite closer, and one of the best in the history of the game of baseball. Don't compare his exploits and pitching methods to Miguel Batista, because they are uncomparable. Rivera has one of the best cutters in baseball, and he is actually able to control it. Not to mention the fact that he usually doesn't throw it 3 times in a row in exactly the same location.
If Batista strikes Lee out with that pitch, I still question why he throws it there in that situation. And BTW, when did I ever say the game wasn't baseball?
For further reference, I have no problem with Batista as a closer this year, or into the future,I was merely commenting on my displeasure with his pitch selection in that 0-2 situation today.
I don't know the exact details, but it's something about him heading into arbitration or free agency after long absences with injury; they would have had to commit $5-$6 million per season to a guy they couldn't be sure would ever be an effective pitcher again.
I think the qualifying offer(I don't know if that's what it called) for Carpenter is around 2.8M, please correct me if I am wrong.
Do you have anything to back this up? At all? What does this even mean? "Star closer quality" -- what is that?
What I am talking about is not an exact science, but a common similarity between great closers is that they all have a dominant out pitch (ie. Mo's cutter, Gagne's changeup, Lidge's slider, etc...), and none of Speier/Chulk/Frasor/Schoenweis has a pitch in that caliber. "Star Closers" (We'll call these guys Tier-1) have the ability to miss some bats and strike a lot of guys out. The most telling stat is their K/9IP, Speier/Chulk/Frasor/Schoenweis have a solid K/9 (7.18/4.52/7.35/7.77) but nothing that would blow anyone away.
Given that this is not an exact formula, as the ML leader in saves is currently Chad Cordero, who does not possess dominant stuff. These closers I would put into the second tier, not because they can't get the job done but because they don't wow anyone with the stuff and make hitters look foolish. This group of closers generally don't allow many baserunners.
A third group of closers are the ones that give up a lot of baserunners, cause a few heart attacks, but somehow manages to close the door. (ie. Batista, Wickman, etc...)
After looking at Speier/Chulk/Frasor/Schoenweis from a statistical standpoint, I have to admit that I may be wrong in saying that none of them have the capability to be better than Batista, but I stand by my point that they would not emerge as a Tier-1 Closer. Speier from a statistical standpoint would be the best fit as a closer from among the potential candidates his 0.90WHIP is definitely comparable to other Tier-2 Closers.
By no means am I saying that there are anything wrong with Tier-2/Tier-3 closers. A Tier-1 closer is a rare commodity. At the end of the day, the only thing that matter is if they could get the job done.
I think the qualifying offer(I don't know if that's what it called) for Carpenter is around 2.8M, please correct me if I am wrong.
Do you have anything to back this up? At all? What does this even mean? "Star closer quality" -- what is that?
What I am talking about is not an exact science, but a common similarity between great closers is that they all have a dominant out pitch (ie. Mo's cutter, Gagne's changeup, Lidge's slider, etc...), and none of Speier/Chulk/Frasor/Schoenweis has a pitch in that caliber. "Star Closers" (We'll call these guys Tier-1) have the ability to miss some bats and strike a lot of guys out. The most telling stat is their K/9IP, Speier/Chulk/Frasor/Schoenweis have a solid K/9 (7.18/4.52/7.35/7.77) but nothing that would blow anyone away.
Given that this is not an exact formula, as the ML leader in saves is currently Chad Cordero, who does not possess dominant stuff. These closers I would put into the second tier, not because they can't get the job done but because they don't wow anyone with the stuff and make hitters look foolish. This group of closers generally don't allow many baserunners.
A third group of closers are the ones that give up a lot of baserunners, cause a few heart attacks, but somehow manages to close the door. (ie. Batista, Wickman, etc...)
After looking at Speier/Chulk/Frasor/Schoenweis from a statistical standpoint, I have to admit that I may be wrong in saying that none of them have the capability to be better than Batista, but I stand by my point that they would not emerge as a Tier-1 Closer. Speier from a statistical standpoint would be the best fit as a closer from among the potential candidates his 0.90WHIP is definitely comparable to other Tier-2 Closers.
By no means am I saying that there are anything wrong with Tier-2/Tier-3 closers. A Tier-1 closer is a rare commodity. At the end of the day, the only thing that matter is if they could get the job done.
So if Carpenter was $2.8 million, then I challenge those who disagreed (in hindsight, obviously) with his non-signing to clear $2.8 million in payroll from that team without starting Dave Berg in left field (or at all).
Could be a fun exercise in creative re-thinking. Though I think the whole Carpenter thing is spilled milk.
Could be a fun exercise in creative re-thinking. Though I think the whole Carpenter thing is spilled milk.
"Why didn't he just throw a cutter outside, it looks as if Lee was sitting on the inside fastball (Green might have been sending him signals) so why not just throw something outside and in the dirt?
You can't throw the same pitch 3 times in a row..."
In the game story in the Star today, Zaun says that after the second cutter, he wanted Batista to waste a pitch just to give the hitter a different look and then go back to the cutter. Batista wanted the cutter but didn't locate it properly.
I have no problem with the 3rd cutter being thrown, just where it was thrown. If it was inside like the first 2, I doubt it would have been a HR if it was a hit at all.
Miggy is a little like a handful of Bits 'n' Bites: You never know what you're gonna get. Next handful, a whole new Batista.
You can't throw the same pitch 3 times in a row..."
In the game story in the Star today, Zaun says that after the second cutter, he wanted Batista to waste a pitch just to give the hitter a different look and then go back to the cutter. Batista wanted the cutter but didn't locate it properly.
I have no problem with the 3rd cutter being thrown, just where it was thrown. If it was inside like the first 2, I doubt it would have been a HR if it was a hit at all.
Miggy is a little like a handful of Bits 'n' Bites: You never know what you're gonna get. Next handful, a whole new Batista.
Exactly. If Batista throws that cutter where the other two were, on Lee's fists, he's k'd. That cutter was way to flat and caught too much of the plate, Lee made him pay.
The Game, when I said, "that's baseball" if you didn't realize I didn't think you were talking about Hockey, or Poker. I was merely saying that this is the way it goes in Baseball, you can do everything right and go 0 for 4, you can do everything wrong and go 4 for 4. I didn't think it was that hard to figure out, my bad.
The Game, when I said, "that's baseball" if you didn't realize I didn't think you were talking about Hockey, or Poker. I was merely saying that this is the way it goes in Baseball, you can do everything right and go 0 for 4, you can do everything wrong and go 4 for 4. I didn't think it was that hard to figure out, my bad.
"Exactly. If Batista throws that cutter where the other two were, on Lee's fists, he's k'd. That cutter was way to flat and caught too much of the plate, Lee made him pay."
And my point was that he shouldn't have thrown that pitch in that situation..I didn't think that was too hard to understand.
And yes it's baseball, and Batista got burned on a bad mistake, it's as simple as that.
The pitch didn't have terrible location, but obviously Lee was sitting on that pitch to drive it. I believe he should have thrown something in the dirt, afterall it was an 0-2 count..
And my point was that he shouldn't have thrown that pitch in that situation..I didn't think that was too hard to understand.
And yes it's baseball, and Batista got burned on a bad mistake, it's as simple as that.
The pitch didn't have terrible location, but obviously Lee was sitting on that pitch to drive it. I believe he should have thrown something in the dirt, afterall it was an 0-2 count..