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The Jays take to the road for the final time this season. First stop is Boston where the Sox are still looking for three more wins, or Yankee losses, to win the division. The Jays have been playing better recently but heading into Boston is always a tough trip.

The schedule is:


Monday: Brett Anderson vs. Drew Pomeranz


Tuesday: JA Happ vs. Chris Sale


Marco Estrada vs. Rick Porcello


Anderson is set to make the final start of the season in Yankee Stadium. All the other starters are making their last start of the season.


Blue Jays at Red Sox - Sept 25 - 27 | 165 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
hypobole - Monday, September 25 2017 @ 06:45 PM EDT (#349494) #
Dan Szymborski with his ZiPS Unusual Achievement Awards has 2 Jays among the winners

The 'Yes, we remember that Eric Hosmer baserunning in the World Series' Award:

Who is the actual smartest baserunner, the one that gets the most out of his speed? For this, I have a model that calculates how many FanGraphs baserunning runs a player should have been worth given their speed score and their hit profile. And that award goes to: Josh Donaldson, Toronto Blue Jays.

Donaldson can still hit, but a calf muscle injury that cost him the better part of two months has sent Donaldson's speed score crashing to his worst figure in the majors, 258th in traditional speed score, 247th in the variant that ZiPS uses. Yet he still has positive baserunning numbers, two runs above-average in BSR despite a player with his speed typically being well below average. He hasn't been able to run, but he's still living up to his reputation as one of the smartest baserunners in the league.
Dead last: Yasiel Puig.

The Rum For Jobu Award

In the movie "Major League," slugger Pedro Cerrano implored Jobu to take fear from his sick bats to enable him to hit a curveball. It didn't work until the very end of the movie, no matter how much rum Cerrano left as an offering. So let's take this literally -- which MLB hitter in 2017 has the largest spread between his ranked ability to hit fastballs and curveballs, Cerrano's offensive malady? And let's make sure it's a power hitter, to honor Cerrano's offensive profile. For this, we honor: Kendrys Morales, Toronto Blue Jays.
hypobole - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 07:50 AM EDT (#349500) #
So about a week ago Shapiro gives Goins ridiculously effusive praise in his Brunt interview.

Checked FG this morning and the best Jays position player the past 7 days? Of course it's Goins.
scottt - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 07:57 AM EDT (#349501) #
It's just one week out of 4 years.

Pomeranz said he was throwing in the mid-80s to save gas for the latter innings.
If that's true, it's fitting that the loss take away his chance to finish as the win leader. 
hypobole - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 08:08 AM EDT (#349502) #
"It's just one week out of 4 years."

That's exactly what they said about Bautista 8 years ago to the day.
Mike Green - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 08:50 AM EDT (#349503) #
Bautista crushed it for a month in 2009, hypobole.  I don't know if that comment was serious or not, but no emoji, so I'll take it that it was. 

For his career, Goins is a 0 fWAR player and a 3.6 bWAR player (UZR and DRS have a significantly different view of his defensive abilities).  If you split the difference, he's been a 1.8 WAR player over 1300+ PAs, or basically a typical sub.  He's a below average defensive shortstop at this point, and you don't want him playing every day (including against LHPs) as a shortstop.  As a backup second baseman, getting 250 PAs with 220 of them against RHP, he's fine.  You do not want to play half a season with Goins as your shortstop and Barney as your second baseman. 

John Northey - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 08:57 AM EDT (#349504) #
Mike - I'd agree 100% on that. Goins is who he is, a backup infielder who won't embarrass you in the field. Like all players he has hot and cold periods but in the end he is a poor hitter who is a solid fielder - not the wow he was a few years ago but solid. He is, in other words, the same as Barney. The only time both should be in the lineup together is in a blowout in order to give regulars time off. Sadly Tulo and Travis have both being living on the DL a lot this year thus leading to ugly situations. Next year the Jays have Richard Urena in AAA ready to step in and hopefully do better than he has this year and hopefully Travis/Tulo both play more than 70 games apiece vs the combined 116 games this year (in 2016 they both were over 100 games). Ideally the Jays sign a much better infielder as backup with the guy knowing he will get a lot of playing time due to injury issues.
hypobole - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 09:02 AM EDT (#349505) #
Wow Mike, did I really need an emoji? I mean it's Ryan Goins.

Actually, now that you mention it, maybe the reason people freaked about Shapiro's Goins comments were due to Davidi forgetting to add the emoji's when he transcribed the interview.
Chuck - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 09:07 AM EDT (#349506) #
I believe Barney is a FA this off-season. I can't see the team re-signing him. His bat pushed him to the MLB fringes back in his 20s, when he was a gold glove calibre second baseman. With his defense having predictably diminished into his 30s, there may be little call for his services.

Goins is under team control, I think, so I'd expect him back next season. As we've long discussed, the front office will be tasked to find a further backup infielder who is good enough to tolerate for long stretches of playing time, given the fragility of the starting 2B and SS. Finding someone good enough to start who won't be given a starting job could prove challenging.

Mike Green - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 09:10 AM EDT (#349507) #
Nardwuar, the Human Serviette.  Ryan Goins, the Human Emoji. All right, what would a Goins emoji look like- glove down, sliding and ready to pop up for the throw.  -/; maybe.  Hell I'm no artist.

Chuck - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 09:15 AM EDT (#349508) #
You do not want to play half a season with Goins as your shortstop and Barney as your second baseman.

Caught Wilner for a few minutes last night. First time all season. A caller phoned in to specifically comment on much he enjoyed watching the Goins/Barney tandem this season, and how great they were. I guess his enjoyment is a subjective experience, so there's no point arguing that. But what an unexpected comment to hear.

hypobole - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 09:23 AM EDT (#349509) #
Chuck, did the caller sound suspiciously like Shapiro?
hypobole - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 09:40 AM EDT (#349510) #
And thanks, Mike. I googled Nardwuar and now I'm about to waste 15 minutes watching the Aziz Ansari interview as soon as my break is over.
Glevin - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#349511) #
"Goins is under team control, I think, so I'd expect him back next season. As we've long discussed, the front office will be tasked to find a further backup infielder who is good enough to tolerate for long stretches of playing time, given the fragility of the starting 2B and SS. Finding someone good enough to start who won't be given a starting job could prove challenging."

Very challenging considering how weak the free agent market is at middle infield. The only good players that could cover SS and 2B is Nunez and he will want a guaranteed starter's job. Cozart will be a starting SS with a decent size deal. Neil Walker will start somewhere at 2B and can't cover SS. You're talking realistically about guys like Espinosa, Drew, Aybar, Rosales, etc...who are no better than Goins/Barney. The issue is that even if someone had slightly better numbers this year, they could easily be worse this year. Look at Eric Sogard. 107 WRC+ this year. The thing is he had around 1,100 ABs in the previous 3 seasons with a WRC in the low 70's and that's almost certainly where he'll head back next year. If the Jays want to get a better backup, they will probably have to trade for one. I mentioned Lowrie before but maybe the Padres would be willing to let go of Solarte for not that much (He's 30 and not part of their rebuild), there are others as well.

Mike Green - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#349512) #
Lowrie is 33 years old, and didn't play shortstop this year.  He never was a good defender there, and he probably would be worse than that this year.  Profar is my favourite of the candidates.  He would be likely to get more work in Toronto than he would in Texas.  However, Odor did have a rough (or smelly if you prefer) year and so Texas may prefer to have Profar around just in case. 
uglyone - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 10:38 AM EDT (#349513) #
Agreed, Glevin - good SS are worth their weight in gold.
Mike Green - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#349514) #
John Lott has another excellent story in the Athletic- this time on J.A. Happ.  I did not know that when Martin gives a fastball sign for Happ, he lets Happ choose whether to throw a 2 seamer or 4 seamer.  I wonder if Martin does that with other starters. 
bpoz - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 10:54 AM EDT (#349515) #
So Goins, Urena and another guy. Refsnyder is a defensive liability. So I would not want someone like that. So defense has to be the new guys strength.

Too bad Smith Jr did not play 2B. Maybe speed. T or C Lopes can waste on the bench. If there is an injury, then Urena.
bpoz - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 11:01 AM EDT (#349516) #
L Gurriel. But not to start the year. This will be an interesting search/acquisition.
hypobole - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#349517) #
I think it was MLBTR (Adams?) suggesting Jays pick up a starter for 2nd base who can also play SS. Travis and Goins would be the backups.

And Glevin, Solarte does sound like a decent target.
uglyone - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 12:05 PM EDT (#349518) #
So who's your 2017 Jays MVP?
92-93 - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#349519) #
Easy one. It's Stroman, by a wide margin. Kid took the ball every 5 days pitched like a boss all season, with no bad stretch.
uglyone - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#349520) #
yep, that's what I was thinking.
Mike Green - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 12:16 PM EDT (#349521) #
Agreed.

I'm not a fan of players going for a mark like 40 homers or 200 innings at the end of season, and not performing well. Smoak needs a day off.  I don't care whether he hits 38, 39 or 40 homers, and it ought not to really matter except in the player's mind.  The bizarre part is that Smoak is not helping his long-term value by playing while tired.  A modern day GM looking at a player's track record isn't going to place a whole lot of weight on the number of home runs, but rather on the complete picture both offensive and defensively.  By playing while tired, he's hurting his numbers on both sides of the ball (this past weekend, his defensive play was below his usual standard which is decent). 

Mike Green - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#349522) #
Solarte is a decent trade target.  It's a plus that he is a switch-hitter who hits better from the left-side.  You can use him to give Donaldson a rest from time to time. 
Jevant - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#349523) #
I once called in to praise David Eckstein running out a walk, as evidence of "hustle".  I assume your caller was making a joke.
Jevant - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 01:13 PM EDT (#349524) #
Options are Stroman (who probably has the best case), Smoak (most consistent and healthy bat), or Osuna (because addressing what he was dealing with this year took mad guts and meant more off the baseball field than anything anyone ever could do on it).
Chuck - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 01:15 PM EDT (#349525) #
I assume your caller was making a joke.

No evidence of sarcasm, whatsoever. And no evidence that he was "playing" Wilner. Never mind the varying opinions at this site, there is a big group of people that see Blue Jay matters very differently.

Jevant - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#349526) #
You can put me down for Solarte too, the BABIP should bounce back a bit.  That said, he's 30, and a bit more of a 2b/3b than a SS, I think.  So I wouldn't break the bank (via trade).
hypobole - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#349527) #
Yeah, it's Stroman for Jays MVP.
hypobole - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#349528) #
So I wouldn't break the bank (via trade).

Ay, there's the rub. Maybe the most valuable attribute of Solarte is his contract. Bit over $4 million next year and then 2 team options. The Padres will get real value back when he's dealt.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#349529) #
"I think it was MLBTR (Adams?) suggesting Jays pick up a starter for 2nd base who can also play SS. Travis and Goins would be the backups."


That makes the most sense since it will be easier to find a decent starting 2B than a good utility infielder, but Travis does not provide much value off the bench. He is a good 2B who just can't stay healthy. If the team is serious about winning in 2018, and not just window dressing as a contender, then they should not rely on Travis to start at 2B. Chances are he won't last a full season, and his injuries have piled up enough to where you may have to wonder whether it will start to impact his performance even when he's on the field. If he does start at 2B, then they pretty much have to have a starting calibre 2B as the back-up. Obviously not an established one since an established one wouldn't sign somewhere to be a back-up, but someone they can take a chance on. Profar is out of options. Dilson Herrera had a bad year + injury and I believe is out of options. Tony Kemp is blocked in Houston. Something along those lines.

China fan - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#349530) #
"....He is a good 2B who just can't stay healthy..."

There has been some talk about trying Travis in LF too.  The point is that the Jays
shouldn't rely on his good health, but they can create full-time playing time for him in different positions if he's healthy.  The solution, in my opinion, is to invest in a good full-time 2B -- even if you have to trade for one, since the free-agent market isn't good -- and then fit Travis somewhere in the lineup at various positions if he is healthy.  Considering the risk of injuries and considering how much playing time was given to Barney and Goins this year, it seems unlikely that Travis will be surplus, even if the Jays acquire a 2B.  So the Jays should acquire a good 2B (as the main focus of their off-season activity), dump Barney, keep Goins as the utility back-up infielder, and then find a way to create playing time for Travis if he is healthy.  He could split his time between 2B and LF, giving a rest to others.  And if he is healthy and hitting well, you have the option of making him the starting 2B again.  With the likelihood of middle-infield injuries again, Travis would still be valuable, but it would be nice if he had some positional flexibility.


Mike Green - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#349531) #
Urena and Hernandez get to face Sale tonight.  There's getting your feet wet, and then there's getting knee deep in it...
92-93 - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#349532) #
Kinsler is an (the?) answer at 2B with one year @ 11 million remaining on his contract, but he already vetoed a trade to Toronto in the past, though that was before they got good again. He has always crushed lefties which this team could really use. I don't see why the Tigers would want to keep him for 2018, especially considering that he was seen as a salary dump at the trade deadline and it's very unlikely he'd get a qualifying offer after 2018. If he'd be willing to come, the question would be are the Jays serious enough about trying to contend in 2018 that they'd be willing to part with enough prospect value to get him. Avila must be thrilled Kinsler has popped 8 HR in his last 17 games.
greenfrog - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 08:00 PM EDT (#349533) #
I wonder what Donaldson would garner in a trade this off-season. He has re-established himself as one of the very best players in the game, and one of the very best Blue Jays position players ever.

Not that I'm advocating a trade. I'm just curious how far an opposing GM might go to acquire him for a year.
scottt - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 08:24 PM EDT (#349534) #
I see media types commenting that the Jays should trade Donaldson to a team looking to contend in 2018.
Like the Mets, the Rays, the Giants, etc... Teams that are in no better position to contend than Toronto.

I'm sure there's tons of interest from teams willing to underpay, maybe pickup some salary and no willingness to give up top prospects whatsoever.  I'd certainly want something much better than what the Jays got from letting Encarnation walk.

scottt - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 08:39 PM EDT (#349535) #
Needing a shortstop is conditional to trading Goins. With Goins on the bench and Urena at AAA, there's no need for another shortstop, just an offensive 2B. There's still other shortstop options anyway, like Dee Gordon, Heckavarria, etc... decent players who are getting a bit expensive with teams that have other options.

I don't see how playing Travis at other positions would keep him healthy. Either he dives catching balls or the singles turn into triples.

The choices for a  2B on the bench are
a) trade for one, preferably a starter
b) sign a backup
c) sign a starter out of a job

So, I think they deal with the 5th starter early and they wait out the market on the second baseman.

scottt - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 08:45 PM EDT (#349536) #
It would be pretty hard not to slot Hernandez in RF to start the year.

I love the doubts that are spreading all over the Red Sox fans right now.

greenfrog - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#349537) #
Teoscar's wRC+ is now up to 131. A confidence-building September, to be sure.
scottt - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#349538) #
I'm pretty sure it's the best September callup in franchise history.
greenfrog - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#349539) #
Hernandez up to 142 wRC+. The Liriano trades are looking better and better for the Jays.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 10:07 PM EDT (#349540) #
The strike outs need to be cut down, but so far Hernandez is hitting a ton of line drives and flyballs, and his home runs recently have been no doubters. The power looks real. If his plate discipline can catch up as he gets more plate appearances, then he has a good chance to be an everyday big league player.
GabrielSyme - Tuesday, September 26 2017 @ 11:28 PM EDT (#349541) #
Hernandez doesn't have terrible plate discipline - it might be a little below average, but it's not that bad. His contact rate, however, is very low, and unless this power surge is more or less maintained, it's difficult to see him being a productive player.

The good news, of course, is that he has a history of making decent contact in the minor leagues, and he is still adjusting to the majors. For what it's worth, he has modestly better contact numbers this year than last.
John Northey - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 12:20 AM EDT (#349542) #
Just be careful about September callups. Russ Adams in 2004 in 22 games (78 PA) hit 306/359/528 for a 127 wRC+ while playing SS. His wRC+ never again cracked 90. He retired after 286 ML games with a -0.7 fWAR. FYI: he had 3 seasons in the minors with the Padres, and Mets after being released from Toronto.
uglyone - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 12:38 AM EDT (#349543) #
while i believe in his power, needless to say his current .370iso is not remotely sustainable, for any player.

and 78pa is just enough time to show that a kid can hit a fastball, but not much more than that yet.
dan gordon - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 03:23 AM EDT (#349544) #
I'm not reading much into Hernandez' Sept numbers. Lawrie OPS'd .953 in late 2011 at age 21, and looked like one of the best hitters in the game. Hernandez is OPS'ing less than that in half the AB's at age 24. He has over 2,700 minor league AB's to consider. It should be interesting to see how the OF positions work out next spring, particularly if Pompey is healthy. I still think they get somebody else in the offseason as well, to either start at one of the corners or challenge for a spot.
Glevin - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 03:43 AM EDT (#349545) #
"Needing a shortstop is conditional to trading Goins. With Goins on the bench and Urena at AAA, there's no need for another shortstop, just an offensive 2B."

I disagree. Goins isn't good and Urena doesn't look close to major league ready. Since Tulo and Travis are both very injury-prone, you want someone decent who can cover both positions. It is an inefficient use of resources otherwise. (You go get a pretty good 2Bman and Travis is healthy and Tulo gets hurt, you're still playing Goins full-time while your pretty good 2Bman is on the bench.)

Also, I don't think anyone thinks Teoscer is the next Aaron Judge, but his performance in September combined with his numbers in AAA are a reason for optimism. Eric Longenhagen was asked about him yesterday and he said this: "I think he’ll be a solid everyday big leaguer"
GabrielSyme - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 04:17 AM EDT (#349546) #
One of the interesting things about Hernandez is that he seems to have had a genuine increase in his in-game power this year, even though he's increased his strikeouts to get it. Obviously that trade-off is working for him at the moment, but very few players can succeed with his swing-and-miss and be good hitters (we are in the Gallo-Dickerson-Napoli zone). But Teoscar is relatively young, and has a chance to combine the better contact he had last year and previously with his power production this year. The other side of his value has not been as evident - he hasn't done much on the bases or on defence to make me confident in the scouting reports suggesting that he won't need to hit all that much to be a useful starter. Not that the defensive or baserunning value won't emerge - it's just that we haven't seen much of it this past month.
greenfrog - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 07:38 AM EDT (#349547) #
There are question marks about Hernandez's hitting, baserunning, and defence. He might flame out, be an average outfielder, or an above-average one. It's too soon to say. But I like that the Jays have him in their depth chart for the coming seasons. Acquiring him was a deft move, whether or not he ultimately works out.
scottt - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 07:42 AM EDT (#349548) #
I don't remember what Lawrie was doing, but Hernandez is murdering the best pitchers of the division rivals at the precise moment in  which they are trying their best to win.  BABIP has nothing to say about homeruns.
And then we have the juiced balls. It could be that Hernandez's fly balls are going farther than with the minor league balls.

It's pretty depressing if you start to think that every player who do well in the minors is the next Snider.

Lawrie it turns out was an average hitter for 5 seasons providing 15 WARs. If that's the expectation for Hernandez, minus the behaviour issues, than that's great.

What I think, he's that he'll be a streaky hitter.

uglyone - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 09:51 AM EDT (#349549) #
ignoring what month they were called up in, here are the best offensive short rookie callups (50-300pa) in jays history:

1.'09 R.Ruiz (31): 130pa, 164wrc+
2.'06 A.Lind (22): 65pa, 163wrc+
3.'11 B.Lawrie (21): 171pa, 157wrc+
4.'17 T.Hernandez (24): 78pa, 142wrc+
5.'02 J.Phelps (24): 287pa, 141wrc+
6.'85 C.Fielder (21): 81pa, 138wrc+
7.'15 D.Travis (24): 238pa, 136wrc+
8.'04 R.Adams (23): 78pa, 127wrc+
9.'03 H.Clark (29): 77pa, 122wrc+
10.'88 R.Ducey (23): 63pa, 117wrc+
11.'17 R.Lopez (29): 59pa, 117wrc+
12.'92 J.Kent (24): 222pa, 113wrc+
13.'97 S.Stewart (23): 193pa, 112wrc+
14.'12 D.Cooper (25): 145pa, 112wrc+
15.'91 E.Sprague (23): 183pa, 110wrc+
15.'08 T.Snider (20): 80pa, 110wrc+

hey look at Raffy Lopez popping up on that list. what do we think of his defense?
Chuck - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 10:19 AM EDT (#349550) #
Lots of lessons on that list.

1.'09 R.Ruiz (31): 130pa, 164wrc+

Remember when Randy Ruiz was going to be the next big thing? (No, really, this time it's different. This guy has got something.)

3.'11 B.Lawrie (21): 171pa, 157wrc+

Lots of excitement in these parts over his rookie "season" (all of 150 AB). The countdown to Cooperstown was underway.

5.'02 J.Phelps (24): 287pa, 141wrc+

That was around the timing of the start of this website. Phelps is going to be something big. Really. This guy is going to be huge. The ball sounds different coming off his bat.

uglyone - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 10:43 AM EDT (#349551) #
I am still permanently scarred by Phelps.

21 (A+): 448pa, .941ops (23.2k%, .234iso)
22 (A+/AA): 336pa, .873ops (29.7k%, .272iso)
23 (AA): 588pa, .968ops (21.6k%, .270iso)
24 (AAA): 295pa, 1.037ops (28.1k%, .366iso)
24 (MLB): 287pa, .925ops (28.6k%, .253iso)

Looked so awesome. Can't believe he didn't become an every day guy at least.

Though looking back, it's kind of weird that he wasn't. He did post a career .815ops in the bigs, and .935 in AAA.

He must have been an absolute disaster at 1B defensively. Though even then it's weird he didn't get more chances to DH.

GabrielSyme - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#349552) #
If Teoscar hits akin to Phelps - a little better than league-average - he will be a useful player even if he's just an average defensive RF. My concern is that he has a bunch of challenges in getting to league average - the most significant being his contact issues, but his batted ball distribution in the minor leagues wasn't great either, and his power has only recently looked like it could be a carrying tool.

Teoscar could make it work, but it's a very high-risk profile.
greenfrog - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#349553) #
That list actually includes some really good players, especially once you exclude the older players (ie, in their late 20s or early 30s).
uglyone - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#349554) #
Yeah all the prospect-aged guys up near the top there - Lind, Lawrie, Phelps, Travis, Fielder - all put up better than league average hitting lines. And some of the guys at the bottom of the list did too. It's not a bad list of comparables tbh.
hypobole - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 12:52 PM EDT (#349555) #
Donaldson and Happ continued to impress.

4 games ago I posted a comparison of ZiPS projections vs actual value. Donaldson was at 4.4 fWAR. he's now at 4.8.

As for Happ, finished the season with 2.9 fWAR/3.6 bWAR after his 3.2 fWAR/4.5 bWAR last year. Here is the link to Happ's Nov '15 signing, if anyone interested.

https://www.battersbox.ca/article.php?story=20151127202546163

To say the board was less than enthusiastic is an understatement.Only a few who were ok with it, and even some of those werent pleased because they wanted Price.

FWIW, Happ's provided more IP's and total value than Price thus far.
92-93 - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#349556) #
Donaldson hit his first HR after the All-Star break on July 27th.

Since then, in 51 games: 39R 24HR 48RBI 35BB 43K .306/.416/.715

The strange thing is that on numerous occasions over the last 2 months I've felt like his timing still seems off watching him swing through very hittable fastballs that catch way too much plate. I've thought to myself "that's a pitch that 2015 JD doesn't miss", but he's been a much better hitter over this stretch than he was in 2015.

If there was any hope on buying somewhat low on him this offseason with a contract extension it's out the window, but if the front office wasn't even comfortable with say a 5 year deal this winter then they are probably thrilled he is increasing his potential trade value.

If I was a 32 year old former MVP that was hitting .236/.356/.422 on July 22nd and then went absolutely bonkers the rest of the season, I would be looking to parlay that into a long-term deal that offseason if I liked my current situation in the city I played in. Maybe I leave tens of millions on the table compared to what I'd get with a healthy and productive 2018, but having seen how the market treated Encarnacion I wouldn't want to put myself up against Harper, Machado, and Kershaw.
jerjapan - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#349557) #
Happ looked great last night, and even with the missed time, I think JD is this year's MVP.

I always enjoy reading those older threads Hypobole, but I'm always a bit nervous I've said something dead wrong.  Casting shade on the Carlos Santana extension fits as dead wrong (Kasi, I owe you a coke) but it did get my wondering - I can't recall any FO discussion of extensions for our young talent.  Shapiro was pretty successful with this approach in Cleveland - have the young stars just learned that they are leaving too much money on the table?  I fear an extension for JD is a pipe dream, although I'd certainly hope we at least explore the possibility sincerely.  But why no talk about Stroman, as some posters have suggested? 

I fondly recall Randy Ruiz as one of the highlights of a drab September of baseball for Jays fans.  An undrafted non-prospect who finally got a shot and had a great run for a team in need of something to cheer about.  I still recall him walking off the field after taking a ball in the face - I guess if you are getting hit in the head, it helps if Josh Towers is pitching.  He never again made an impact in the bigs, but nice to note that he made some good money in Japan as a result of his time in TO. 

hypobole - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#349558) #
Yeah, if there was only one extension, Stroman would be my choice as well. Hopefully the FO engages in some serious talks this offseason.
lexomatic - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#349559) #
I'm a little confused about the Hernandez blow-back. Who's been calling him the second coming.
I see something along his career numbers as a reasonable outcome, with a bit less power, with equally possible outcomes for average of 220 or 270 and 15 HR to 30 HR. If the average AND power are down, that won't play unless he's superlative with the glove (but the team will likely give other players time instead).
A few things to remember about the power surge
hot months happen
he does seem to have changed approach somewhat for power
I've read that the ball is not the same in the minors as in MLB, and the ball is flying out this year.
All this month has done is confirmed that Hernandez deserves serious consideration at an OF job.
There are definitely lots of red flags (30% HR/FB for one), but it's just too early to tell if this is part of a transformation
I'm curious who between Teoscar Hernandez and Jorge Soler in KC will have better careers.


China fan - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#349560) #
Hypobole, thanks for posting that 2015 thread on the Happ contract. I'm pleased to notice that I was one of the few who liked the acquisition. I even correctly predicted that the 2016 Jays rotation would be stronger than the one that opened the 2015 season.

I make lots of incorrect predictions and bad analysis, so I like it when I get one right.
Mike Green - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#349561) #
Thanks, hypobole, for linking to that old BB article.  Occasionally I get things right-

"I also like the acquisition of Happ.  At this point, he's a left-hander who strikes out more than 7.5 per 9 and walks less than 3 per 9 (this being the big issue for him over his career).  He holds runners pretty well.  He will get his share of ground balls.  The sum total is usually a winning formula for pitcher.  He still throws a lot of pitches despite a much lower W rate, and you have to figure him for 6 innings per start and leave it at that. "

As for the list of prospects who have had good Septembers, I'm kind of fond of the Ed Sprague comparison.  Sprague didn't have much of a career in terms of value, but he made some money and best of all, was a World Series hero the year after his good September. 

Chuck - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#349562) #
I'm a little confused about the Hernandez blow-back. Who's been calling him the second coming.

You're right. All this Hernandez shade seems preemptive and not in direct response to any one person's hyperbolic's claims.

The poor bastard has hit 7 homeruns in a month and all he's getting is grief!

Mike Green - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#349563) #
And then there's the story factor.  Young guy arrives in Toronto, gets tutelage from Jose Bautista and has a power surge in September.  The passing of the torch narrative adds to the fun.

At this time last month, I couldn't wait for September to come.  It has been worth the wait.  
uglyone - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 03:25 PM EDT (#349564) #
Personally I'm just pushing back a little on the idea that we can comfortably pencil him in as a good starter next year.

But I thought this was a steal the day the trade was made and think he has every chance to be a solid player for us going forward.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#349565) #
Aaron Sanchez has career blister problems - his words, since high school. He's recovering from his first finger injury - that took so long to diagnose. After pitching 200 innings for the first time in his career, he's held to just 36.0 innings in the next year. He's going to be inning/pitch limited big time. In all fairness, needing him to be a front-line Starter next year is not the best plan. If he is that good, it's a bonus; but needing him to be that good is wrong.

Joe Biagini is an excellent Reliever capable of most anything they need from him. Transiting to the Rotation, however is still an issue for him. he has the occasional game where everything goes right yet more often has games where he has trouble getting outs. He has innings where he's dominant, then innings where he gets hit around. He's not a Mid-Rotation type, but more a back-of-the- rotation Starter. Could he be better - maybe. The Blue Jays need more.

The Jays need a quality, Number Two Starting Pitcher, LHP if possible. Anything less puts more pressure on everyone else. Cost: $15.0 Million or more per year over 5 years or more. It's fine to disagree, but that means depending too much on everyone else, when you shouldn't have to.
uglyone - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#349566) #
and whoa, reading that thread....turns out i DIDN'T like the happ signing. who knew?
Ducey - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#349567) #
To get McGuire, Ramirez, Hernandez and some innings from Liriano for Hutchison looks to be some good work.
Mike Green - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#349568) #
It should be noted that some $ were involved as well, Ducey.  The team did act like a large market club in this set of transactions, spending some money to effectively build its upper level prospect base.  That was a good use of funds, I will agree. 
hypobole - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#349569) #
There were a ton of choices for Lacava/ Shapiro in 2015 and they aced both Happ and Estrada.

2 yr WAR totals per Bbref of higher rated SP's (per MLBTR).

4.4 Price
8.3 Greinke
7.5 Cueto
0.3 Zimmerman
4.9 Samardzija
2.3 Leake
0.3 Chen
2.7 Maeda
0.2 Kazmir
4.4 Kennedy
0.0 Gallardo
3.5 Lackey
2.9 Iwakuma
-1.6 Anderson

6.4 Estrada
8.1 Happ

Almost all got longer and more AAV deals than our guys.Gallardo, Iwakuma, Lackey only got 2 yr deals, though Lackey had a higher AAV. Anderson accepted the Dodgers QO.

So of all those, Happ has provided almost as much as Greinke, and Cueto is the only other to have done as well as either Happ or Estrada.

Side note- Lacava's offseason seemed a bit better than Atkin's the next next year.








Mike Green - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#349570) #
Teoscar Hernandez and sample sizes.  Bizarrely, Hernandez has a lower exit velocity than major league average and a much higher average height, but hasn't popped up yet and has 13 extra-base hits on 47 balls in play.  Tough to keep that up. 
GabrielSyme - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#349571) #
The Jays really didn't pick up much money on the Liriano deals - I can't seem to find any information on whether they sent money to Houston, but I assume they just took on Aoki's ~$2m obligation - which Aoki actually earned based on his brief but good stint with the Jays.

Liriano also probably earned his contract while in Toronto - his fWAR was worth ~$12m, which is only slightly less than what he was paid while here. B-R puts him at half that value, but it's worth pointing out that his good period with us was in the middle of a pennant race, which was what he was acquired for, and teams pay a substantial premium for wins in that context.
uglyone - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#349572) #
Donaldson is 4th in the AL in wrc+, and 8th in total WAR dspite missing 1/4 of the year.

what a beast.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#349573) #
The Jays need to take special care with the Outfield. This is where the biggest and best upgrades should and must be made. I think the Jays need a whole new upgraded Outfield and fewer right-handed hitters.
Is it time to trade Kevin Pillar? He's not getting younger and he's not getting better. Highlight reel catches are fine until the body break down/says no more. Without his defensive abilities, his bat is not Starter material, barely Bench possibility. Unfortunately, they most likely will keep him.
Is Teoscar Hernandez the answer for RF or CF? Probably yes, if they are only seeking one other Outfielder and not two.
Mike Green - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#349574) #
The 5 year fWAR leaderboard goes: Trout, (big gap), Donaldson, Kershaw, (big gap), Scherzer, Sale, Goldschmidt...

Just to put things in perspective. 

Mylegacy - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#349575) #
Re: Hernandez, Spring Training and September numbers. Heart. Broken. Many. Times.

Also on trading Donaldson. We've a bevy of potential stars on the way perhaps two, or slightly less, years away on average led by The Two Sons + Alford + a few very interesting catchers. A SS or two. Perhaps 5 new position players who MIGHT excel(ish).

Will Donaldson still be a factor for them? If not - I'd consider a package that might age wise be slightly ahead of our prospects but who could still be in their primes when our newbies are just entering theirs.

just thinkin'...
lexomatic - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#349576) #
The 5 year fWAR leaderboard goes: Trout, (big gap), Donaldson, Kershaw, (big gap), Scherzer, Sale, Goldschmidt...

Just to put things in perspective.


For more perspective, Donaldson is #47 all-time for 3B WAR on Fangraphs since 1900... but that includes guys like Miggy,A-Rod, Brett, Edgar Martinez, Killebrew, Darrell Evans, and Dick Allen, or Tony Perez ahead of him, who didn't spend their whole MLB career at 3B. He's a lot closer to top 20 than not. Though he doesn't have a ton of time to add to that (and he also hasn't only played 3b, but I think you know what I meant).
greenfrog - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#349577) #
Has there ever been a Blue Jays position player who has put together a three-year run at a level of performance as high as Donaldson's 2015-17? I'm not sure there has, even with Josh's injury issues and struggles earlier this year.
John Northey - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#349578) #
hypobole - thanks for the link. Forgot I was against Happ at first quite strongly but by the end of the page I was seeing how he was a low risk, high reward potential. That is the fun here - we can learn from our mistakes.

Happ value: 2016: $25.2 mil, 2017: $23.0 mil (via FanGraphs)
Jays paid: $23 mil total for those 2 years plus $13 for 2018.
Yeah that worked well - $36 mil for $48.2 mil value plus another years worth.

Estrada: 2015: $14.1, 2016: $23.7, 2017: $21.3
Cost: $3.9/$11.5/$14.5/plus $13 for 2018
Another great deal. Skipping 2015 when he was in arbitration you get $45 mil of value for $26 mil so even if next year is a bust he was still profitable to the Jays overall over his contract ($39 mil vs $45 value or add in 2015 and get $42.9 mil for $59.1 mil of value)

Interesting to look back and see that for Estrada the Jays traded away Adam Lind (value of $22.7 in the 3 years since at a cost of $16.5 mil), and at the same time declined options on Dustin McGowan(-$7.5 mil of value), Brandon Morrow (+$16.8 mil of value most this year in the pen for the Dodgers 50 K vs 8 BB), and Sergio Santos (-$0.9 mil of value) while also claiming Justin Smoak off waivers. I'd call that a good week. Yeah, Morrow would've been nice this year in the pen but otherwise those guys would've been eating space for little value.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#349579) #
Re: Hernandez, Spring Training and September numbers. Heart. Broken. Many. Times.

It's not about what prospects are doing in Septembers or in Springs, anyone can be hot. It's not about what they aren't doing, anyone can be cold. It's all about what they can't do. example: Kevin Pillar doesn't take a walk - career .303 OBP. Devon Travis doesn't steal bases - 11 in 812 ABs.

If what the Player does, isn't doing and can't do is acceptable to the Team, then he makes the roster.
scottt - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 06:45 PM EDT (#349580) #
It's not a matter of signing Hernandez to a long contract or letting him walk.

It's either put in RF or send him back to AAA and probably burn another 40 roster spot on some league average Joe.

Spring training numbers could play too, but it'll be too late then to sign someone else.
If he struggles, they could swap him with Alford or Pompey.

I was down on Happ, but I had valid reasons. I recognized that he hadn't faced a strong opposition and I didn't think he could dominate just by locating his fastball. I was wrong on that, but maybe Martin helped.

Pearce in left field is another candidate to miss time. That's less worrisome because there's not much of a drop between him and the AAA backups. The 2B could play a few games at LF, but that just takes AB from the 4th outfielder. 

I still see a lineup construction problem.

SK in NJ - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 07:13 PM EDT (#349581) #
Another oddity with Hernandez is his hard hit rate isn't very good considering the amount of home runs (and no doubters) he's hit lately. Tons of medium contact. Not hitting many GB's though, which hopefully continues. At the end of the day, everything about his numbers, good and bad, are small sample size. I think if he ends up being an average big league corner outfielder, we should be happy. I think he definitely has the potential for that.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 07:38 PM EDT (#349582) #
Resigning Donaldson is the most difficult problem the Jays will have since he joined the Team. So many things must be considered, all which has bearing on his signing.

Morales is under contract for two more years so the earliest the DH spot frees up is in 2020. Is the DH spot needed in 2020 for Tulowitzki, or is it available for Donaldson then?

How fast is Valdi coming? Is he the Starting 3B in 2019? Is 2020 his time? Or is he ready faster? No one really knows now.

Josh is an amazing player, a perennial MVP candidate. I would keep him as long as possible. But I start with 3 years, $90 Million. If he's able to be the Bringer of Rain all three years, I'd give him another two years at $50.0 Million.
greenfrog - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 07:47 PM EDT (#349583) #
I fully expect that Donaldson will be back for 2018, and that he will then depart as a free agent (with the front office saying all the right things throughout about wanting him back).
Chuck - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 07:47 PM EDT (#349584) #
Is it me or has the umpiring been especially crappy lately?
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 08:04 PM EDT (#349585) #
Umpiring is always questionable. They have no oversight and zero reason to ever get better. You are not wrong Chuck, umpiring is always bad, just more noticeable some days.
Mike Green - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#349586) #
Has there ever been a Blue Jays position player who has put together a three-year run at a level of performance as high as Donaldson's 2015-17? I'm not sure there has, even with Josh's injury issues and struggles earlier this year.

bWAR has Donaldson with the best 3 year mark for position players ahead of Barfield 85-87 and White 91-93.  Stieb 82-84 is slightly ahead of Donaldson. 
hypobole - Wednesday, September 27 2017 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#349587) #
And I thought this game was the one we had the best chance to win.
John Northey - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 01:57 AM EDT (#349588) #
Top 3 year bWAR's...
Stieb: 22.6 (82-84), 21.7 (83-85)
Donaldson: 21.1 (15-17) so far
Clemens: 20.1 in 2 years (wow!)
Barfield: 19.1 (85-87)
Devon White: 18.7 (91-93)
Halladay: 18.5 (01-03)
Bautista: 18.5 (10-12)
McGriff: 18.0 (88-90)
Key: 17.4 (85-87)
Alomar: 17.3 (91-93)
Delgado: 16.6 (00-02)
Moseby: 16.3 (83-85)
Hentgen: 16.1 (95-97) and a 15.7 (94-96)
Fernandez: 14.4 (86-88)
Olerud: 14.3 (92-94)
V Wells: 14.0 (04-06)

That is just my searching up guys who had seasons of 6+ WAR here at some point. Doubt anyone had 3 5's in a row without ever cracking 6.

Stieb was amazing at his peak. Clemens 2 years here are at a level all their own (few HOF'ers had 2 years that good let alone in a row). I'm sure others land in the 14-16 range but I didn't find them with my searching big names.
scottt - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 07:13 AM EDT (#349589) #
Donaldson is great, but he's getting old. He's going to lose value on both defense and offense every year.
The will is strong, but the flesh?

I don't know if I can bet that Donaldson will put those types of numbers in his 33-37 years.
I can certainly bet that he's going to put amazing numbers on his walk off year.
That's just the type of guy he is.

Another Hernandez homerun?

greenfrog - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 07:39 AM EDT (#349590) #
wrc+ 150 / 0.7 fWAR. If his performance this month is all a mirage, it's a hell of a mirage.
Chuck - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 07:49 AM EDT (#349591) #
Donaldson is great, but he's getting old. He's going to lose value on both defense and offense every year.

Thing is, if you're a 7-WAR player, and lose 0.5 WAR per year, you're still a damn good player several years later. Donaldson's starting point in his descent is just so much higher than most everybody else's.

bpoz - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 07:53 AM EDT (#349592) #
I too am taking it slow with T Hernandez. I don't want to build myself up too high on him, then every year I have too high expectations. It happened to me with C Rasmus. Also others.
Chuck - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 07:53 AM EDT (#349593) #
If his performance this month is all a mirage, it's a hell of a mirage.

A quarter century ago, Kevin Maas made the world unsafe for wild-eyed optimists.

Jevant - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 08:06 AM EDT (#349594) #
This just reminds me how overlooked White was in the glory years.  Always felt as if there were 4 or 5 more important players on each of the World Series teams, but you can make an argument there that he was the most important player to those teams.
Chuck - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 08:30 AM EDT (#349595) #
This just reminds me how overlooked White was in the glory years.

If the defensive metrics are to be believed, he was worth over 8 WAR on defense alone during those 3 seasons.

It should be noted that Kiermaier has been worth 10 defensive WAR over the past 3 seasons, and that's in just 340 games, not much more than 2 full seasons.

The value of defense has gone up over these past years (I recall Kiermaier's current contract raising some eyebrows), but a defensive WAR is still vastly underpriced. I wonder if that stems from the lack of trust in defensive valuations or the age old siren's cry of offensive juggernauts (which, admittedly, has abated some in recent years).

bpoz - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 09:00 AM EDT (#349596) #
So much can be said about Donaldson and his future impact to the Jays. He is the only good Jay's player who has a supposedly short future with the team.

He may be traded.

Ownership often tells the GM what to do. Gillick could not trade B Singer for prospect R Guidry. P Godfrey insisted that V Wells be signed. I believe that E Rogers wanted Bautista signed.

Mike Green - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 09:03 AM EDT (#349597) #
In White's case, it was not just defence.  He was, according to BBRef , +23 runs/season with the glove.  Does that figure make sense for a great centerfielder?  I don't know.  It might be +15 runs/season and some metrics have a smaller spread than the ones BBRef uses (TZ, DRS).  So, maybe, it's a little generous to him with the glove.  Maybe.

His numbers though come from everything.  In 1993, for instance, he hits .273/.341/.438, which is very good for a centerfielder, but he's also 34-4 stealing bases, grounds into only 3 double plays and is a great baserunner.  BBRef has him at 9 runs above average with the bat, 8 as a baserunner, 3 for how few double plays he grounds into, 18 for his glove and 3 for his position.  Even if the glove number is a little high, he's a great player. 

All of the attention was on the Alomar/Carter/McGriff/Fernandez trade, and it certainly moved the club forward (in large part because it created space for Olerud).  But the White/Felix trade turned out to be essential also. 

By the way, Barfield was also +23 runs/season in his peak years with the glove.  About half of that is due to baserunner kills, and perhaps a bit easier to see than White gliding for catch after catch. 

Jevant - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 09:13 AM EDT (#349598) #
Speaking of Jorge Soler (who has inexplicably been stapled to the bench in KC after a good year in AAA), he's one of the guys I would love to see Atkins go after this offseason.
bpoz - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 09:18 AM EDT (#349599) #
The spectacular catch... ie pulling back a HR with a great leaping catch is great. But we have seen catches missed that go for not just singles but doubles, recently. I hope we get a break from that type of outfielder.
Chuck - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 09:30 AM EDT (#349600) #
and perhaps a bit easier to see than White gliding for catch after catch.

I am surprised now to see White listed at only 6'1". I was expecting 6'3" or 6'4". In a sense he reminds me of his fellow countryman, Usain Bolt. Both took longer strides than their peers, making what they were doing seem easy, and not an exertion. White won 7 gold gloves in 8 seasons, so it's not like he wasn't being recognized for his defense. But he didn't inspire the same Superman passion among fans that Pillar does, optics leading to strong subjective opinions.

pooks137 - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#349601) #

The value of defense has gone up over these past years (I recall Kiermaier's current contract raising some eyebrows), but a defensive WAR is still vastly underpriced. I wonder if that stems from the lack of trust in defensive valuations or the age old siren's cry of offensive juggernauts (which, admittedly, has abated some in recent years).

I think the large error bars for defensive metrics continue to make it hard to value (especially things like catcher and 1st baseman defense).

The other problem with defense is that it peaks very early like speed, so it is mostly found in cheap, pre-arb players. There are obviously outliers like Beltre, Yadier Molina, Heyward, Kiermaier, etc, but in general, defense is freely available and cheap if you don't care about corresponding offensive output and only depreciates as it gives expensive as defense seems to peak and decline very early on

Look at a guy like Ryan Goins. Defensive metrics over the last two years suggest that at 29 he's lost all his defensive value in addition to his negative offensive contributions, dragging his value below replacement. This is just when he's about to leave his pre-arb years and become not quite as cheap anymore

The Jays obviously don't fully agree with the defensive metrics, but the truth likely lies somewhere in between. At 29, he's already lost a few steps defensively, has lost any little value he had and is about to start getting paid

uglyone - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 10:24 AM EDT (#349602) #
Wasn't just defense with White, given that he was pretty much just as good a hitter in his stint with the Jays as the Jays' vaunted cleanup hitter rbi man extraordinaire, Joltin' Joseph Carter.
Mike Green - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 10:30 AM EDT (#349603) #
Hernandez had 6 no-doubt home runs in 195 career PAs.  That's a Stanton/Gallo/Judge rate.  He has a career IsoP of .275, and there isn't a luck element to that. 
uglyone - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#349604) #
Following up on our discussion of the Warthen Slider, Mr.Warthen's job seems to be on the chopping block now, I guess due to all their pitching injuries.

Here's an article analyzing whether he's actually at fault:

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/did-the-warthen-slider-drag-the-mets-down/
Gerry - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 10:50 AM EDT (#349605) #
Vlad Guerrero and Bo Bichette are the #1 and #2 prospects in the FSL per Baseball America. Max Pentecost is on the list too at #16. Here are a couple of notes from the discussion:

- Some managers liked Bo better than Vlad!
- Both should be able to stick at their positions. There is some long term worry about Vlad if he adds bulk
- Max Pentecost's catching skills are fine, he can be a quality receiver, health allowing
Ducey - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 11:40 AM EDT (#349606) #
"I am surprised now to see White listed at only 6'1". I was expecting 6'3" or 6'4". In a sense he reminds me of his fellow countryman, Usain Bolt. Both took longer strides than their peers, making what they were doing seem easy, and not an exertion. White won 7 gold gloves in 8 seasons, so it's not like he wasn't being recognized for his defense. But he didn't inspire the same Superman passion among fans that Pillar does, optics leading to strong subjective opinions."

White also had tremendous jumps and could read where the ball was going to go better than just about anyone. He could turn his back on the ball, run to where it was going to land, and just turn around and it would drop into his glove.
hypobole - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 11:56 AM EDT (#349607) #
With Warthen, he was going to retire, but apparently changed his mind because he wanted to leave on a higher note than this seasons's disaster. Mets FO seems to want to make the change now though.
hypobole - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 12:16 PM EDT (#349608) #
uo - Yeah, just as Devo is probably the most underrated in Jays history, Carter is definitely the most overrated.
John Northey - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#349609) #
Those who are too young to remember 91-93 missed out on some beautiful fielding out in CF. Devo was always viewed as amazing out there, even pre-Jays but was viewed in California as having a chip on his shoulder thus why the Jays got him for Junior Felix (who was about a decade older than official stats list him as). Gaston let him be himself and he flew. Yeah, not an ideal leadoff hitter with the low walk total but letting him settle in there allowed him to focus on being the best player he could be. With star quality players that is what you need to do - set them up and leave them alone and none were better at doing that than Gaston.

Barfield was otherworldly with his arm back in the 80's. The only time you wanted a fly ball with a runner on 3rd base as watching him toss a rocket to the catcher dead on was beautiful as smart runners took one or two steps and went back while dumb ones were dead on arrival. A dream outfield would have Barfield & White out there.

Checking B-R best seasons for defensive WAR
CF: Devon White 3.9 (a full 1 WAR above any other Jay)
2B: Orlando Hudson 2.9
SS: John McDonald/Marco Scutaro 2.7
3B: Brett Lawrie 2.3
RF: Alex Rios 2.1
CA: Greg Zaun 2.1
LF: Reed Johnson 1.4
1B: none in top 50 dWAR for Jays (Olerud's best was 0.5, Upshaw a 0.6

Note: Barfield's best is listed at 1.9 which sounds very low to me for him.
Of note: Best ever is a 5.4 (Andrelton Simmons in 2013 at SS). Devon White's 1992 is tied for 28th all time. You need 2.3 to reach the top 500 all-time.
Magpie - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#349610) #
[White] was pretty much just as good a hitter in his stint with the Jays as the Jays' vaunted cleanup hitter rbi man extraordinaire, Joltin' Joseph Carter.

If you ignore the first four years they played together, 1991-1994, when Carter's OPS+ was 117 and White's was 103.

Carter was pretty bad once he turned 35, and he played another three years here (White was only around for the first of them). That badness has somewhat tarnished how he's remembered.
uglyone - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#349611) #
ooh that's interesting, John. lemme see what fangraphs has for best dwar seasons (though they actually use defensive runs above average here, not defensive wins).

CF White '92: 35.1 (#2 Pillar '16: 23.6)
RF Barfield '87: 18.6 (#2 Rios '08: 18.2)
LF Johnson '06: 9.8 (#2 Bailor '80: 8.9)
3B Gruber '88: 17.9 (#2 Batista '99: 13.3)
SS Gonzalez '96: 21.1 (#2 Fernandez '85 & '89: 20.7)
2B Hudson '04: 17.9 (#2 Garcia '82: 15.7)
1B Upshaw '87: 5.5 (#2 Olerud '94: 4.5)
C O'Brien '97: 20.1 (#2 Whitt '83: 14.9)
uglyone - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#349612) #
Well over their 5yrs together on the Jays, White was at 103wrc+, Carter 109wrc+, and they were only a year apart in age.

From best to worst:

White: 119, 109, 98, 93, 93
Carter: 123, 120, 108, 105, 84
hypobole - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#349613) #
Don't subscribe to Bbref, so I don't know all the names, but there have only been 9 times a player has had over 100 RBI's and an OBP under .300.

Carter is the RBI leader of that group, 115 his last year as a Padre with an OBP of .290. That also seemed to be his worse defensive season - ended up being worth -2.0 fWAR.

Touch-em-all Joe is the only member of that group to manage the feat a 2nd time, his last full season as a Jay in 97, 102 RBI's, .284 OBP.

Two of the other 7 players had previously been Jays, George Bell did it with the White Sox in '92 and Tony Batista with the Expos in 2004.
Gerry - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#349614) #
I asked about Dunedin pitchers today in the Ba chat. Here is the answer....

The Jays had some good pitching this year. Did Ryan Borucki, TJ Zeuch or Josh DeGraaf qualify? DeGraaf is a reliever conversion project, did you hear any good reports on him? Thank you.

John Manuel: All three qualified, and I like Borucki; I am interested in all 3 who will likely all make the Jays' top 30. Borucki v. Zeuch is an interesting one. I ran into one scout who liked my Borucki-JA Happ comparison, and he threw well after leaving the FSL, even finishing in Triple-A, so he was the closest to the top 20 in the FSL for me. Zeuch was tougher because he pitched twice after May what with the lower back strain and then hamstring setback he had during rehab. It's surprising to me that Zeuch isn't on the Jays' instructional league roster. DeGraaf didn't stand out to the folks I talked to but he's on my "dig more" list for the Jays top 30.

-------

The Happ Borucki comparison is interesting. Manuel might not have remembered that Zeuch is headed to the Arizona fall league.
Dewey - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#349615) #
Look at a guy like Ryan Goins. Defensive metrics over the last two years suggest that at 29 he's lost all his defensive value in addition to his negative offensive contributions, dragging his value below replacement.

 The Goins-bashing continues unabated on da Box. He has *not* lost “all his defensive value”.  He’s apparently lost some of it. He's not on the roster as a starter but as a bench player -- a lowly-paid replacement-level player. It’s not his fault he’s had to play so much instead of others hired to be starters. Why exactly is Goins the whipping-boy of so many on da Box? He seems to elicit such extreme negative comments. The guy has been very valuable to the Jays over his stay here. He’s a talented bench-player; and, at least this season, not without significant batting production. What do you expect from him? Do you all secretly feel you could do better?
Mike Green - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#349616) #
The other problem with defense is that it peaks very early like speed, so it is mostly found in cheap, pre-arb players. There are obviously outliers like Beltre, Yadier Molina, Heyward, Kiermaier, etc, but in general, defense is freely available and cheap if you don't care about corresponding offensive output and only depreciates as it gives expensive as defense seems to peak and decline very early on

Defense is freely available and cheap?  The Blue Jays could surely have used an Adam Everett clone this year.  Not available.  They could also have used a Reed Johnson clone.  Not available.  This year, bats (particularly at the right end of the defensive spectrum) were cheaper than gloves.  Which is why Shapiro/Atkins were roundly criticized for misjudging the marketplace when they signed Morales. 
Mike Green - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#349617) #
For fun, I checked J.A. Happ's minor league record.  Sure enough, he spent his age 23 season, like Borucki, split between the FSL and the EL.  Happ had similar results- not as good as Borucki in the FSL and better in the EL, but close enough on both counts that you'd rate them about equal from a performance perspective.  Happ spent his age 24 season in the IL (in Ottawa) where he struggled, and then most of his age 25 season again in the NL before coming up for good to the Show. 

Pitchers are somewhat different from position players.  He would likely have been a 4A position player by age 25. 

lexomatic - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#349618) #
 The Goins-bashing continues unabated on da Box. He has *not* lost “all his defensive value”.  He’s apparently lost some of it. He's not on the roster as a starter but as a bench player -- a lowly-paid replacement-level player. It’s not his fault he’s had to play so much instead of others hired to be starters. Why exactly is Goins the whipping-boy of so many on da Box? He seems to elicit such extreme negative comments. The guy has been very valuable to the Jays over his stay here. He’s a talented bench-player; and, at least this season, not without significant batting production. What do you expect from him? Do you all secretly feel you could do better?

1) Goins has zero offensive value, so if he loses what defensive value he had, then he has no value. When he stops being cheap, he has negative value (if you don't believe he already has it)
2) It's not his fault that the team had so many injuries and he was further exposed by playing too much. That doesn't change that the results were terrible.
3) He may be popular with some (even many) fans, but I'd argue that he's been valuable other than someone being willing and able to take the field (competent is another matter).
4)Significant and timely production are two different things. He's been timely, and it makes his value seem more impressive by certain statistics. By most statistics he has not produced positive offensive results.
5) I didn't expect more than this , which is why I wanted him replaced before this season, and continued to want him replaced.There isn't really a better option available, so I think we'll get more of the same
6) I absolutely don't feel I could do better, I've never seen anyone on this site suggest this, and it's totally an unfair argument to make.
Richard S.S. - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#349619) #
What is the purpose of the Bench? To give the occasional AB off or Day off for the Regulars. To provide two to three days of coverage until the Replacement arrives for the injured Player. They are not there to be the Replacement, because they are generally not good enough.

There are two ways to fill out the Bench. Neither work as well as expected.
1) The Blue Jay way, as cheap as possible. Then fill in with young Replacement talent when needed. The problem is - the Jays don't have any ready talent that's close.
2) Spend a lot of Money - pay Players well to accept a lesser role, but get them as many ABs at possible. Play 4 Outfielders in three positions and sprinkle in DH time. Not always possible with a full-time D.H.

If the Jays do have young Replacement Players available for injuries, then just the Backup catcher is significant.
If they don't have the readily available young, then the whole bench is significant. There is no room for just Goins, Barney, Carrera, Pearce and whatever cheap Catcher they chose.

If 2018 doesn't matter, disregard the above. If it does matter!
hypobole - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#349620) #
56 players on FG listed as shortstops with 100 PA's this year. Goins ranks 44th in wRC+, 48th overall. Tulo ranks 35th in wRC+, 44th overall.

Mike Green - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 05:17 PM EDT (#349621) #
Hypobole, what's the point of the stat?  Goins doesn't hit as well as almost all the everyday shortstops.  That is to be expected.  He is a bench player.  His wRC+ of 69 slides in between Dansby Swanson, Erick Aybar and Jose Iglesias.  It's not a big issue.  The big issues are that he doesn't play shortstop well any more, and that the front office didn't get more help so that the Goins/Barney combination was not 1/2 the problem that it was.  You'd think that better shortstop talent was freely available (that is what below replacement usually suggests), but it seems to have been an issue in this case. 
ISLAND BOY - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 05:39 PM EDT (#349622) #
I kind of thought that bench players were the replacements for injured players. Presumably they are on the major league roster because they are better than those sent to the minors except maybe young players that need to play every day. There is not much available during the season ( eg. Rob Refsnyder ) except through a trade.

hypobole - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#349623) #
Mike, the point is that even though Goins is somewhat of a problem, the vitriol he gets relative to other players is over the top. Tulo was only slightly better than Goins this year. Yet far more here seem to feel Goins is a problem compared to Tulo.

The FO could have picked up a 1.5 WAR replacement for Goins. That's an improvement, right?. Barney was a 1.5 WAR player last year. He's been worse than Goins this year per FG, far worse per Bbref. Fringe pickups sometimes work out, but just as often they don't.
Mike Green - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 06:34 PM EDT (#349624) #
Fair enough, hypobole.
Doom Service - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#349625) #
Goins has hit .269/.309/.389 since the all-star break (selective bias alert). The only other time he became a 'regular" (2015), his bat was above replacement level. Also, per Baseball Prospectus' FRAA, he's an above average defender in 2017 (combining ss/2b).
GabrielSyme - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 06:53 PM EDT (#349626) #
Should we really be complaining about Ryan Goins this year? Sure, he's been at replacement by the metrics, but those don't account for his clutch performance, which has been substantial.

By no means is that likely to be a real and substantial skill, but it doesn't change the past - and Goins has provided the team with enough timely hitting to make him a positive contributor.
PeterG - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#349627) #
I agree with the seeming minority that Goins bashing is way overdone. I think, as a few have just recently noted, that he has been a positive contributor to the Jays this season. My eyes tell me that both offensively and defensively he is not far below the present level of Tulo (last 2 years) And on a cost effective basis , it is a total no contest.
John Northey - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#349628) #
Goins is who he is - a backup who can play for a week or two but shouldn't be your everyday shortstop or 2B for months at a time. If he gets 300+ PA there is a problem.

Barney is a great example of how part timers are crapshoots to a large degree - lifetime 71 wRC+, 59 this year, 87 last, 122 the year before. So what will he do in 2018? Probably closer to that 71 lifetime figure than the 122 or 59. With gold glove defense he is worth having but otherwise he is such a crapshoot I'd have trouble keeping him around.
uglyone - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#349629) #
goins gets lots of flack because he's kind of a symbol of inaction.
scottt - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 07:49 PM EDT (#349630) #
I think it's actually the other way around. We're talking about Goins because people are saying good things about him. For the first part of the season he was hanging around -2 WAR but now, because of that clutchiness--which is just luck, really--he's popped himself up to replacement level.

Unlike Hernandez and Urena, a good September performance doesn't do anything to suggest positive results for him next year because he'll be 30.

He'll be on the team next year and hopefully play as little as possible.  For the remaining 3 games, I'll hate him if he gets any RBIs because the Jays are now tied with Baltimore.
dalimon5 - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 07:54 PM EDT (#349631) #
The comparisons between Goins and Tulo are laughable, actually, I'm laughing right now. Tulo has been playing injured which is an important point because he will probably get better with time off. Even with two down years in Toronto Tulo is way above not only Goins but most SS players in the league. If Donaldson didn't recover from his terrible slump (playing injured) then some posters here would be throwing comparisons of some chump against him and his decline. In the time he's been here Tulo has been injured every year and not 100%. If you're going to make that argument - that he's not healthy enough then I concede. But to compare his value to Ryan Goins going forward based on his worst 250 plate appearances over 10 years of baseball?...Like I said, laughable. Even if you make the legitimate argument of health with him, then add Sanchez and Devon Travis to that list. This is Toronto not TB and it's okay that we are paying a SS 20+ million per year...and no, that money wouldn't be going to Otani this year if we didn't have Tulo. Do we not remember trotting out Russell Adams, John McDonald, Yunel Escobar,David Eckstein, Royce Clayton, Alex Gonzalez (the 2nd one), Jose Reyes, Chris Woodward...go ahead and defend Goins as having a place on this team but don't you dare compare him to Tulo as if there's a remote chance they're comparable.
GabrielSyme - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 08:19 PM EDT (#349632) #
I think it's actually the other way around. We're talking about Goins because people are saying good things about him. For the first part of the season he was hanging around -2 WAR but now, because of that clutchiness--which is just luck, really--he's popped himself up to replacement level.
So, firstly, taking into account his clutch hitting, Goins hasn't been replacement level. His clutch hitting has been worth roughly one win relative to context-neutral performance, so even using Fangraphs (which is a little more negative than B-R), he's been above-replacement (0.7 WAR). Secondly, while we don't really credit players for luck all too much, neither are we blind to it - and it's entirely consistent to say that Goins hasn't been a good player and that, due to his clutch hitting, he's helped the Jays in 2017.
scottt - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 08:29 PM EDT (#349633) #
Does Borucki throw as hard as Happ? I was under the impression that there is a few mph difference.

When Happ was pitching in Ottawa, it was the last year of the Lynx.
Baltimore fielded losing teams and the Philies were even worst. They finished 53-90 that year.
The attendance reflected the bad team, the bad affiliation (working agreement) and the future of the franchise.

I don't think there was a prospect among the position player.

On the pitching side they had Bubba Nelson who had been drafted in the second round by the Braves, but had been released and signed by the Phillies, he would have a stint with the Blue Jays AAA the next year.
They also had J.D. Durbin a second round pick from the Twins who had bounced through the waivers 3 times to end up with the Phillies.

Tons of failed players over 30.
It must have been a miserable place to pitch.




hypobole - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 08:30 PM EDT (#349634) #
Both Fangraphs and Bbref compare every players season to every other players season.
scottt - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 08:32 PM EDT (#349635) #
Replacement level is 0-1 WAR. B-R has him at 0 WAR.

Winning games after they've been eliminated is not  helpful to the Jays.
It might be helpful to some pitchers and to the manager's record.

hypobole - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 08:38 PM EDT (#349636) #
scottt - Happ's FB velocity his first season averaged 89.5, 90.3 his next 2 seasons. So in the minors he was probably averaging 90 or less. The past 4 seasons he's been around 93.
GabrielSyme - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 08:48 PM EDT (#349637) #
Scott, I'm not sure what your point is about Goins' bWAR - it is, as you say, nil. Give him credit for his timely hitting though, and you have to credit him with 1.0 wins.

As an aside, replacement level isn't 0-1 WAR; by definition it's exactly 0. If you want to say "roughly replacement level" then it should be centred on 0, so you could (loosely) say that a replacement level player is -0.5 to 0.5 WAR.
John Northey - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#349638) #
Goins pretty much is a replacement level player - good to have around so you don't get a sinkhole but not too useful. Never pay more than $1-2 mil for guys like him or you are wasting money. Lifetime he has been worth 0.1 fWAR, 3.6 bWAR (defense is the big difference) over 5 seasons, 446 games. Best case has him worth 1.3 WAR over 162 games. Generally you want regulars to be worth 2 WAR. This covers age 25-29 which is typically peak years, especially for a defense first guy. He is likely to drop in value from now on (age 30+) unless he is like John McDonald whose peak was 35-37 (3.4 WAR or 1.1 a year roughly) and best season was age 32 (2.4 WAR or barely better than a regular should produce).

When John McDonald is the best one should hope for it might be time to move on. If Goins is the biggest issue in 2018 the Jays will be in great shape. Lets hope he is all we have to complain about :)
PeterG - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#349639) #
dalimon 5, I am laughing at your post also....complete joke imo. You are imagining a Tulo that no longer exists. He won't get any better.

we will have to agree to laugh however....better than crying.
dalimon5 - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#349640) #
Tulo doesn't have to get better to be miles ahead of Goins.
hypobole - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#349641) #
Dave Cameron chat yesterday:

Hi Dave. If Josh Donaldson has a healthy Josh Donaldson type year next year (7 or 8 WAR, 150ish wRC+, etc.), what does his FA deal look like? And if you’re him, what extension offer from the Jays would you consider this winter?

DC: If he continues to be an elite player and shows he’s over his leg issues, I’d guess something like 6 years at $35m apiece.

Given where TOR is heading, unless he just really likes it there and doesn’t care about winning during his decline years, I wouldn’t re-sign.
John Northey - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 10:31 PM EDT (#349642) #
Ouch.

I think the smart move by the Jays this winter is to offer Donaldson 4 / $20 to start (via agent) and grow to 5 / $25 per with a max of 5 / $30 per ($150 mil). Only 30 contacts have been signed for more than $150 mil total, only 5 for $30+ mil a year, none over $34.4 (Zack Greinke) or for position players $31 (Miguel Cabrera - below replacement level this year).
SK in NJ - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 10:57 PM EDT (#349643) #
I think it's pretty clear that holding on to Donaldson in 2018 means he's either gone for nothing after that season or traded at the deadline for anything they can get for him. The only way he is re-signed is if somebody at Rogers pulls a Paul Godfrey and forces the FO's hand, but given the amount of dollars Donaldson will be seeking, I don't think Rogers will interfere.

Trading him this winter after the 2nd half he had is likely the best way to go, but they likely see that 2nd WC spot being wide open next season given how bad the AL is aside from the top 4 teams, and Rogers won't want the money train to stop yet, so business as usual.
uglyone - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 10:59 PM EDT (#349644) #
why would donaldson sign here?
jerjapan - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 11:08 PM EDT (#349645) #
Because he likes it?  Back to back playoff runs, an MVP award?  Who know why Donaldson or anyone would sign here, but Toronto is a kick ass city and the US is increasingly tumultuous.  If I were an MLB FA, I'd be tempted to sign here ... once you start talking triple digits for the millions you are making, does the extra money matter? 

I assume you are implying that the team has no future, Ugly, which seems odd coming from you.  I'm bullish on the team right now, although it continues to be a brutal division.  That Dave Cameron comment Hypobole quoted is telling. 

I recall zero posts bashing Goins, not sure where this idea comes from.  People are bashing the FO for playing Goins ... not Goins for being Goins. 

scottt - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 11:18 PM EDT (#349646) #
O bWAR means replacement level. That is a free player. Someone you can grab on waiver like Maile or a AAA free agent.

Next to player value it says 8+ MVP, 5+ All-Star, 2+ Starter, 0-2 Sub.

So basically, even with all the timely hitting, Goins is exactly at replacement level, the minimum for a bench player, worth no more than the 500K minimum salary.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained.shtml

"Replacement level players, by their very definition, are players easy to obtain when a starter goes down. These are the players who receive non-roster invites at the start of the year, or the players who are 6-year minor league free agents."

John Northey - Thursday, September 28 2017 @ 11:58 PM EDT (#349647) #
I do find the negative views on Donaldson coming back after 2018 weird. The Jays just made the ALCS twice in a row, then a down year when everyone and their brother were injured. Even kids called up got hurt (Alford). He is smart enough to see Vlad Jr and Bo Bichette coming fast and most players seem to enjoy being there when potential stars come up. He has to see 2020 as a strong potential for contending again and the big fan base as a big plus after the nightmare that is Oakland. I really think $25-30 mil a year could get it done depending how he and his agent see the market growing. The luxury tax hits at $197 next year and $206 in 2019 makes it hard for a single team (Yankees) to grab everyone without paying a steep price. Donaldson will also be no better than the 3rd or 4th best player on the market that year (post 2018) thus harder to get the $200 mil contract that would be the only reason to wait unless he has a city he really wants to play in.
92-93 - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 02:09 AM EDT (#349648) #
"why would donaldson sign here?"

Because they are the only team that can guarantee him over a hundred million dollars this winter.
GabrielSyme - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 03:34 AM EDT (#349649) #
I don't have any objection to signing Donaldson long-term, and a 5/150 extension seems pretty reasonable. I think there's added some added value to the franchise in keeping stars with the team, though that's difficult if not impossible to measure.

That said, I think you need to get an extension done this offseason - next year looks like a marginal year for contention, and we should at least consider looking at it as a rebuilding year, which could involve trading Donaldson if he doesn't resign. We have a decent farm system, but not a lot of immediate help, so it makes sense to trade 2018 value for prospects who could help us once Vlad and Bo start contributing.

One thing I'm quite worried about is what the starting rotation is going to look like in 2019. Stroman certainly looks like he will remain a good if not elite starter, but Sanchez is uncertain at the least, our farm system is weak when it comes to starters, and the FA market this offseason is pretty thin. I think the best target out there, after Darvish and Arrieta might well be Jaime Garcia.
scottt - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 06:41 AM EDT (#349650) #
I don't think Donaldson is crazy about Toronto. He still believes he doesn't get the respect he deserves. Does he make any money from endorsements? I haven't seen his name associated with any sponsorship. There's also the tax situation. His arbitration submission was over the top before playing a single game here and he ended up with a low-ball contract. Shapiro dodged that bullet by signing him for 2 years. He still says that he believes he's the best player in baseball and this is his chance to prove it. The only way I see him signing over the winter is if he's not feeling 100%.

Trout has missed time and will still get MVP vote. Donaldson? Nope, you only hear about Altuve, Judge and Trout.
He's going to be on a mission next year.

Glevin - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 06:45 AM EDT (#349651) #
Don't see anyone bashing Goins. He's not a good player who really shouldn't be playing regularly in the majors but why should people sugar coat that? There are 289 major league hitters who have had at least 1,000 PAs since 2014 and Goins has been the 3rd worst hitter in that group. I also don't get the anger at the Jays for playing him. He is literally the team's 4th middle infielder. If you have both your starting middle infielders going out for the season, every team is going to be in a bad position. For a team that is not going to win, it is an insignificant move with no guarantee that whatever mediocre middle infielder you trade for will be any better ROS than the one you already had. The problem this year for the Jays was that both guys got hurt and than Barney went from being a pretty good player to being a bad one. No question, they need to upgrade there next year though.

I do think Donaldson will want to test the FA market. Most players do especially position players who have much lower risk of serious injury that can kill their next contract. The problem with waiting until mid-season is that his value will be much lower than it will be in the off-season. It's a tricky situation for a lot of reasons. Personally, I'd probably see if a team came in with a great offer in the off-season (Realistically, how many teams would even be interested? Cardinals, Yankees, maybe Miami if the new owners wanted to make a splash?) and if they did, I'd go for it. If it's underwhelming, I'd hold on and get a similar package during the season.

I think Donaldson will probably be worth whatever his contract in direct terms of WAR but probably not worth it for the Jays. It's hard to see this team, or the core of this team ever winning and therefore, hard for me to see the youngsters coming as players filling needed holes on this team rather than as the start of the next core of players. The Jays had the third worst position WAR in baseball this year and the worst for players 29 and under. The Jays just have way too many holes on the roster and far too few cornerstone players right now and every single year, new holes will open up with no replacements (i.e. after next year, no Happ and no Estrada.) Even with keeping Donaldson, it's very hard to see this team being very good for a few years barring the "every prospect will make it and be immediately great, nobody gets hurt, and nobody declines" scenario.
uglyone - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 07:28 AM EDT (#349652) #
"I assume you are implying that the team has no future, Ugly, which seems odd coming from you."

Donaldson doesn't care about the future he cares about the now.

He has 2 motivations for signing: 1) the most money 2) an organization legitimately prioritizing winning.

Do the Jays provide either?
SK in NJ - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 08:35 AM EDT (#349653) #
Donaldson has always struck me as someone who wants to test free agency to see what his true value is. Signing an extension early and possibly losing out on millions is not something a 32-year old elite player does, unless he is afraid of the risks associated with waiting another season. The Jays would almost certainly have to overpay him even in an extension to make him forgo free agency (something like $30-35M AAV for 5-6 years), and I don't see this front office doing that for a player who will be 33 when his new contract kicks in.

I wouldn't mind extending him, but they have to test all options. Float a reasonable extension by him. If he turns it down, or gives no indication that he wants to sign early, then shop him. A team with a higher win curve or more desperate GM might be willing to overpay for a one year rental. Obviously if no good offer comes from that, then keep him and see what happens in 2018. A WC berth and high attendance in 2018 is probably worth it to the franchise, even if it means losing their best player right after it. They could always trade him for whatever they can next July, but the return then will likely be a lot less.
scottt - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 08:58 AM EDT (#349654) #
B-R calculates WAR on the basis that  there is 1000 Wins over replacement in MLB. That averages to 1000/30 = 33.33 WAR per team. In essence, a team with Goins at every position is predicted to finish with a -20 X 33.33 = -667 run differential for a pythagorean record of 48-114 or something like that...

Now, I do like Maile even though he's at -0.2 bWAR because I believe that he produces WAR that are attributed to the pitchers.


John Northey - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 09:13 AM EDT (#349655) #
The Jays provide the most safe money - ie: no risk of something going wrong in the summer, every player I'm sure has heard the horror stories of guys who waited too long, heck they just need to look to RF to see one. Bautista could've had a 3-5 year deal had he signed ahead of time and now would be a salary nightmare for the Jays but he got greedy and felt he'd get a fortune on the market. A few years back there was Juan González who iirc was offered $100+ mil deal but held out for free agency then got hurt and wasn't as effective (2000 iirc) and got a decent short term deal but nowhere near what he'd have gotten 6 months earlier and was out of baseball before his contract would've ended had he signed quickly.

Due to his late start this will be Donaldson's only shot at a mega deal. And even then teams are deeply discounting age 35+ now it seems and any deal will hit age 35 (32 next season, so contracts will be age 33-35 (3 year) or 33-37 (5 year) or 33-39 (7 year). Given Bautista's situation I suspect Donaldson will be willing to accept less per year to get the longer term. Remember, Bautista is in his age 36 year - if he signed entering age 32 for 5 years as we'd like to see Donaldson do this would've been the last year of that deal. If he signed for 5 years then he provided $124.1 mil of value so a 5 year $125 for Donaldson would have a reasonable chance of breaking even. Going beyond that is risky and most likely throwing good money after bad.

With luck the Jays will have a new star at 3B in 2019 in Vlad Jr. so Donaldson going isn't the worst that could happen. But keeping a star level player is normally good as long as you don't get stupid about it. No more than 5 years unless years 6/7 are virtually free. No more than $30 per ($150 mil max contract) as that is pushing the border of what he could be worth realistically. If he wants a 7 year $200 mil deal then its a 'see ya' situation.
dalimon5 - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 09:43 AM EDT (#349656) #
It's easy to imagine why Donaldson will want to test the market and maximize his money, but there are a couple of facts we're all missing.

1) David Price - not always best to take the most money if you care about stress and reputation

2) Encarnacion/ power hitters - market for them has been softer due to age and emphasis on defense

3) There are not that many teams that need a 3B, and MLB has some of the richest talent at 3B than ever before

4) Donaldson isn't the top FA, not even 2nd or 3rd best overall in 2018. He's the 4th best free agent. How many teams are going to throw all their money at him instead of Harper/Machado or Kershaw?

5) he likes it here. Every time I turn on the TV he's on MLB network discussing hitting. When I watch Vikings he is on it...the dude is all over the place, I don't think he's planning to get revenge for being overlooked like Scott says. It doesn't matter where he goes, he's gonna be overshadowed by the better players like Trout, Harper, Kershaw.

6) What better place is there for him to hit than in the Dome? You think he wants an extra 10 million a year if it means he loses 10-15 home runs on his totals every year?

The best scenario for JD is to resign for as much as he can get and if it's not enough or term is too short , then get a percentage of the attendance figures. That's what I would do.

7) also, like it or not, Shapiro has one of the best reputations in MLB in player development and relations, not that you would be able to see it from his FA signings.
Chuck - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 09:44 AM EDT (#349657) #
With Manny Machado going on the market at the exact same time, it will be interesting to see how the existence of one affects the other. And not just come FA time, but as potential trade acquisitions both this off-season and mid-next season.

There's so much money in baseball right now, neither figure to suffer too terribly, so I'll save my tears. But the existence of the other should, in theory, lower each one's value. The age disparity should mean that Machado fully expects to receive a longer offer, and maybe that sends suitors with shorter offers in mind Donaldson's way.

I have no idea how all this will play out. But I'm sure each wished they were the only belle at the ball.

hypobole - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#349658) #
Jonah Keri grades the Jays players.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-report-card-full-grades-every-key-player/
Chuck - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 09:48 AM EDT (#349659) #
What better place is there for him to hit than in the Dome? You think he wants an extra 10 million a year if it means he loses 10-15 home runs on his totals every year?

In his three years in Toronto, Donaldson has hit 59 HR at home and 52 on the road.

Mike Green - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 10:02 AM EDT (#349660) #
I have no idea how all this will play out. But I'm sure each wished they were the only belle at the ball.

For the benefit of younger fans, there was only one Belle in ball- Joey and Albert were one and the same.

One fanciful notion struck me, and I wondered how the fan base would react.  Suppose the club signed Otani on the understanding that Donaldson would be traded with Guerrero ultimately taking his place.  You'd have a fabulous core of young talent in Otani, Guerrero Jr., Bichette, Stroman, Alford and whatever gems you could get for Donaldson, and some fine secondary pieces along with a fair bit of cash (perhaps enough to sign Darvish for a number of years).  It would amount (probably) to punting 2018, but personally I can see a lot of excitement in watching the young players develop.  Donaldson is a pleasure to watch also, so it's not as though I am pining for this scenario, and I realize that the chances of Otani coming to Toronto are very small. 
Chuck - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#349661) #
For the benefit of younger fans, there was only one Belle in ball- Joey and Albert were one and the same.

A scene right out of Chinatown. I'm Joey, I'm Albert, I'm Joey, I'm Albert...

Gerry - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 10:20 AM EDT (#349662) #
Taylor Cole added for final weekend. Because the Jays need more pitchers after the off day. Aaron Sanchez to the 60 day DL.

AWeb - Friday, September 29 2017 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#349664) #
B-R calculates WAR on the basis that there is 1000 Wins over replacement in MLB. That averages to 1000/30 = 33.33 WAR per team. In essence, a team with Goins at every position is predicted to finish with a -20 X 33.33 = -667 run differential for a pythagorean record of 48-114 or something like that...

I think the final record projection is about right, but the run differential is definitely off. A team outscored by 667 runs would have a seasonal total around, say, 400RF, 1067 RA - pythag says that would lead to about 20 wins.

If each position player was about replacement, or -20 runs, you'd be down 9x20 = 180 runs. With an average pitching staff, you're around 60 wins at that level. Another way to look at it is that WAR is split between position players and pitchers 57%-43%. So a replacement team for position players should still get 43% of the average league WAR with an average pitching staff, or about 14 wins above replacement total (62-100)

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