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Sorry baby
We call it like we see it in Chicago


All right then - the White Sox are bad.

Not quite as bad as last year's edition - at their current pace, they'd end up something like 50-112. It's still awful. I have heard people grumbling about a Blue Jays team that won 91 games in a single season. These White Sox are going to need two seasons to match them. If they can.

Has any team ever lost 233 games in a two year span? Has anyone even come close? 

We know no one's lost 121 games since the 1899 Cleveland Spiders went 20-134, but here's the thing - there aren't that many teams that have lost 112 games in a single season.

Well, the Detroit Tigers have, twice in fact (2003 and 2019) in 2002-03 the Tigers lost 106 and 119 games. That's not 233 losses, but it's pretty close. 

The Baltimore Orioles were also comprehensively terrible just a few years ago, losing 115 games in 2018 and 108 the following year. The Orioles of recent vintage have actually overtaken the Phillies as the franchise that has had the most 90 loss seasons (the Orioles now lead, 41 to 40). Even so, they've never been as bad as these White Sox promise to be.

How about the A's? They lost 112 games themselves just two years ago, and back in the Days of Yore they they were quite a bit worse than that. More than a century ago, Connie Mack couldn't afford to pay his players so he sold them to other teams. The A's lost 109 times in 1915 and 117 times the following year. That's not 233 losses either, but it was probably even worse. With the shorter schedule, they went 79-226 over the two years. That's .259 ball and that's quite a bit worse than the .280 clip of the 2024-25 White Sox.

What about the Mets, famous and adored almost on account of their legendary badness? But after losing 120 games in their first season, they managed to lose just 111 in Year Two. They went 91-231 (.282) over those first two seasons - a fraction better than these White Sox! - and that is indeed the modern bar that the White Sox will either crawl over. Or stumble upon, however it works out. 

It gets more difficult to find teams that lost this many games as we go back beyond those Mets, and the schedule shortens to 154 games. 

The Pittsburgh Pirates of the early 1950s were notoriously terrible - they bottomed out at 42-112 in 1952, with 92-216 their worst two year total. Playing .299 ball for two years is grotesque and awful, but still not as bad as these White Sox. (I think we can safely ignore the 23-113 mark they posted in 1890, before they were the Pirates, back when Allegheny was still separate from Pittsburgh.)

The Boston Braves seemed to be inching their way to respectability in the early 1920s - then quite out of the blue they went 38-115 in 1935. Well, signing fat 40 year old sluggers is seldom a winning strategy. But that awful season isn't even part of the Braves worst two year period, which bottoms out with their 96-208 mark in 1911-12.

The Washington Senators (first in war, first in peace, last in the American League) went 38-113 back in 1904, when Walter Johnson was just a 16 year old Kansas farm boy. It's part of their worst two year run, as they went 81- 207 in 1903-04, and their .281 winning percentage is actually a shade worse than that of the 1962-63 Mets. But still better than these White Sox.

And that's it - none of the other twenty-two franchises have ever lost 112 games in a season. It's slightly interesting that this List of the Inept is mostly populated by proud, old franchises fallen on very tough times. The Mets are the only team here that's part of the post 1960s expansion eras, although the 2025 Colorado Rockies look determined to join them. 

And now I'm reeling in horror at the thought of what I've done. Does this have Reverse Jinx written all over it? Have I unwittingly set the table for a sweep by the visitors this weekend? 

Oh, that way madness lies. Let me shun that.

For one thing, the White Sox really shouldn't be this bad. Okay, no one should be this bad - but the thing that leaps out when you look at their 2025 season is their uncanny knack at losing the close games. The White Sox have gone 4-20 in one-run games, and I promise you, there's a lot of Simple Bad Luck involved when that happens to your team.

Matchups

Fri 20 June - Martin (2-7, 3.79) vs Turnbull (1-0, 2.08)
Sat 21 June - Civale (1-3, 4.67) vs Berrios (2-3, 3.81)
Sun 22 June - S.Guy (?-?, ?.??) vs Bassitt (7-3, 3.75)
White Sox at Toronto, June 20-22 | 171 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
92-93 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 02:25 PM EDT (#461980) #
No mention of the Pope? C'mon!

Martin just hit the IL so it looks like a bullpen night for the White Sox.

MLBTR has a piece up on Benintendi and Robert Jr. as trade pieces, so I'll be watching them closely this weekend. As solid as Lukes has been, LF is still an obvious spot for the Jays to potentially improve at the deadline. They have been getting nothing from the position all year - .215/.322/.309 with 4HR.
GabrielSyme - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 02:46 PM EDT (#461983) #
I wouldn't be opposed to an active trade deadline that makes some major roster shifts, but as things stand, it would be silly to add another outfielder. Springer, Varsho, Santander, Barger and Lukes all either will get or deserve regular playing time in the outfield, and there's a ridiculous amount of depth at the position beyond those guys. Barger will probably move to 3B once guys are back from injury, but we just don't need another piece there unless we manage to ship someone out.
Nigel - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 02:46 PM EDT (#461984) #
The allure and reality of Robert may be two different things. He’s been replacement level for the past year and a half. I’m not sure what the trade deadline market will be for him. He’s a guy that might be a smart reclamation gamble for 2026 and forward but I’m not sure he’s a 2025 playoff team upgrade. Definitely interesting.
pooks137 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#461986) #
Today could be a reliever-fest for both sides tonight.

The Sox out tonight's starter Martin on the IL today, calling up two AA SP to make their debuts in Wikelman Gonzalez and Jake Palisch.

Palisch, a LHP, is actually stretched out and starting in AA currently, last with 85 pitches on the 14th. He'd make the most sense to start if they were so brave.

Wikelman Gonzalez had 4 AA starts to begin the year, but has been pitching in short relief in AAA in 1-2 inning stints for his last 12 outings.

The White Sox emptied their bullpen yesterday in a DH, using 8 reliever. Tyler Alexander is their only MLB fresh arm.

Seems like an opportune time for the Jays' hitters to go to town on a vulnerable pitching staff like they did weeks ago at home vs the Athletics.
John Northey - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 02:56 PM EDT (#461987) #
For fun, what is the next level of ugliness? Worst 2 years ever for a franchise. AL East, ex-Expos, and Tigers & Mariners (for fun).
  • Jays: 1979-1977: 107-216, only other 100+ loss season was 1978, 95 the worst since
  • Expos/Nations: 107-217 either 1969-2022 or 1969-1976 take your pick.
  • NYY: 1908-1912: 101-205, never lost 100 since 1912 (1990 the closest at 95 losses)
  • Red Sox: 1932-1926: 89-218-1, 1965 the last time they lost 100
  • O's/Brown's: 2018-1939: 90-226-2, lost 100+ twice since then
  • Rays: 2002-2006: 116-207, 2001 the only other time they lost 100 in a season.
  • Tigers: 2003-2019: 90-233.
  • Mariners: 1978-1980: 115-207-1, Yep, the Mariners worst isn't as bad as the Jays worst, but their best is still shy of making the World Series.
I also looked at the A's (1916-2023 for most losses 86-229-1, 1916-1919 for worst win% at 72-221-1), the franchise has lost 100 18 times which might explain the constant moving (Philly-KC-Oakland-Sacramento-Las Vegas maybe) despite having so many stars (Reggie Jackson is 10th in WAR as an A with 48.1). Just had to as I knew they'd be ugly.
pooks137 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 02:58 PM EDT (#461989) #
Robert is making 15 mil this year in his final guaranteed year with two 20 mil '26 & '27 team options to come.

He'd be more of an expensive Gimenez-type gamble with more outs and lesser term.

He's also probably of less value to the Jays than other teams because his primary position in CF is less value to them with a theoretically healthy Varsho.
John Northey - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#461990) #
The Jays corner OF slots have been bad this year - LF has an 85 wRC+, RF a 106 (for super-ugly Cleveland RF is at 52, KC 44, Pittsburgh LF is at 30 wRC+, Atlanta 54). So if Atlanta wants to sneak back into the race they have a massive hole to fill in LF. Cleveland might want an OF too.

Jays clearly are hunting for pitching/pitching/pitching. Yes, LF/RF have been weak but with Santander coming back eventually and Springer around one of those slots will be full with the DH full too. So LH: Lukes-Roden-Robertson; RH: Schneider, Straw; SW: Clase will be fighting it out for the LF slot. with Barger in RF often if everyone is healthy (Clement at 3B). I could see all the kids being sent down and keeping Lukes-Straw up as backups (speed/defense, L/R combo) along with Schneider (RH bat can cover 2B/LF, 3B/1B in emergency). Roden-Robertson-Clase haven't shown anywhere near enough to justify keeping them up (OPS+ Of 58-3-68 respectively). Schneider hasn't either (60 OPS+, 86 sOPS+ since being called back up) but his flexibility helps. No question Varsho returning will drastically help the OF, Santander not so much unless he gets back to his 2024 level (133 OPS+) instead of his 2025 (61).

So the lineup (when healthy) is Kirk-Vlad-Gimenez-Bo-Clement-Santander-Varsho-Barger (C-1B-2B-SS-3B-LF-CF-RF) with Springer at DH (he seems to like/thrive in it 132 wRC+, Santander doesn't 54 wRC+ - both over 100 PA this year). Bench of Heineman, Schneider, Straw, Lukes - not ideal, but works.
uglyone - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 03:18 PM EDT (#461991) #
I could see the upside interest in a guy like Robert (especially given the Gimenez and Straw plays)....though tbh i think Robert's fallen off defensively too, so it wouldn't quite be the same "bet on legit elite defense and hope the bat bounces back to at least good enough" play as those two were.

But I struggle to see Benintendi as an upgrade over Lukes in any way - vRHP, vLHP, or defensively. Probably a downgrade tbh.
Nigel - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#461992) #
Robert feels like a guy that the Yankees trade some of their overhyped prospects for (i.e magic beans) and then magically he turns back into the 4 WAR+ player that he was a few years ago.
92-93 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#461993) #
On the Cubs broadcast right now they are talking about how important power is in the playoffs.
John Northey - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#461994) #
Rotation and Pen are a heck of a lot harder to nail down.
  • Rotation: Gausman-Bassett-Berrios are set, but if healthy last 2 are probably Manoah-Scherzer, but that is a heck of an assumption. Francis, Lauer, Turnbull are the alternatives (Francis IL right now), with Macko trying to step up (3 IP 4 R last time out 4 BB 4 SO 4 H) but not there. Lauer has earned a shot at losing his slot (last 5 games 19 IP 9 H 3 R/ER 1 HR 6 BB 20 SO) - lifetime he has a 98 ERA+ mostly as a starter for SD & Mil. If he can be near that 98 he'd be a solid #4/5 starter.
  • Bullpen: Hoffman-Rodriguez-Little-Fluharty are locks, Garcia-Sandlin locks when healthy, Green-Fisher-Schultz have all shown hope at times, Bruihl is here, Burr is IL, Lucas is AAA depth, and that covers the 40 man options.
I suspect the Jays will look for a solid setup guy to add more depth to the pen as injuries happen so you want as much depth as humanly possible. If an ace level starter or solid #1/2 guy is able to be had the Jays should grab him ideally by dealing a few of the 1001 mid 20's OF'ers on the roster, but odds are it'll take a LOT more.
pooks137 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#461996) #
The Jays corner OF slots have been bad this year - LF has an 85 wRC+, RF a 106

I would imagine the team aggregate offense in LF is being brought down by Roden's awful April and mostly empty more recent spot starts by Davis Schneider there against the the run LH SPs.

Similarly, Santander's share of RF starts are weighing down Springer/Barger/Lukes contributions.

With Clement starting daily and Barger getting most of the starts in RF, LF is realistically the only place to make a true upgrade.

And considering the plethora of cheap and fungible potentially league average or above options in Roden, Lukes, Robertson, etc the Jays have there with a crunch for 26-man slots, it probably only makes sense to spend prospect capital on a LF upgrade if you are truly acquiring a 120-130 wRC+ bat.

hypobole - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 03:41 PM EDT (#461998) #
"Seems like an opportune time for the Jays' hitters to go to town on a vulnerable pitching staff like they did weeks ago at home vs the Athletics."

Dovetails nicely with what I was about to post. Something momentous and Jays related should happen at Baseball Reference shortly. Was thinking hopefully by months end, but just maybe by the end of this weekend? Ideas?
92-93 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#461999) #
A positive pythag?
SK in NJ - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#462000) #
Robert would be a good buy low pickup, IMO. It would be more of an upside play rather than someone you can confidently expect big numbers from, but I know I'd rather have Robert batting in a playoff game or pennant race over a Lukes/Schneider platoon.
hypobole - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 04:05 PM EDT (#462002) #
I'm talking something from about 25 years ago,
GabrielSyme - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#462003) #
Not going to do the math, but 100 million in attendance? That, or positive run differential for the franchise.
uglyone - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#462004) #
2yr Stats 2024-25

vRHP

Lukes (30): 209pa, 130wrc+
Santander (30): 644pa, 117wrc+
Springer (35): 670pa, 110wrc+
Benintendi (30): 555pa, 103wrc+
Clase (23): 107pa, 101wrc+
Varsho (28): 490pa, 100wrc+
Schneider (26): 328pa, 90wrc+
Robert (27): 515pa, 71wrc+
Roden (25): 90pa, 65wrc+
Straw (31): 73pa, 58wrc+

vLHP

Santander (30): 230pa, 107wrc+
Varsho (28): 123pa, 104wrc+
Straw (31): 62pa, 100wrc+
Robert (27): 174pa, 88wrc+
Springer (35): 215pa, 87wrc+
Benintendi (30): 159pa, 76wrc+
Lukes (30): 25pa, 62wrc+
Schneider (26): 175pa, 60wrc+
Clase (23): 49pa, 31wrc+
Roden (25): 13pa, 42wrc+



Some sense in trying for Roberts even short term as he's been not completely terrible vs LHP at least, even these last couple years of struggle. So short term platoon with Lukes and then hope he finds his fulltime game again at some point.

in the short term i think i'd still rather get a legit lefty-masher to pair with Lukes, but if you think Robert can ever bounce back to near what he was in the longterm, then the just ok short term fit might still be worth it.

Benintendi is poor defensively along with that noodle bat. He's a career 104wrc+ 1.5war/650 player, but he's declined to pure replacement level the past few years as he's aged. The boston hype machine glow will never completely disappear from him tho.
uglyone - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#462005) #
Lukes and Sandlin activated.

Robertson and Bruihl optioned.
Magpie - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#462008) #
Something momentous and Jays related should happen at Baseball Reference shortly.

Well, Bo Bichette should be bumping Shannon Stewart off the WAR leaderboard.

Best I got!
uglyone - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 04:47 PM EDT (#462009) #
Shi Davidi
@ShiDavidi
·
26m
Nathan Lukes and Nick Sandlin both back from IL for the Blue Jays, Will Robertson and Justin Bruihl optioned to triple-A Buffalo to make room.

Shi Davidi
@ShiDavidi
·
12m
A series of Blue Jays injury updates, via manager John Schneider:

▪️Daulton Varsho ran the bases yesterday and “felt good,” aiming for rehab games next week;

▪️ Yimi Garcia threw a live BP yesterday, looking at a minor-league game Monday in Florida;


Shi Davidi
@ShiDavidi
·
13m
▪️ Bowden Francis had a cortisone shot in right shoulder earlier this week. No throwing 3-4 days more;

▪️ Anthony Santander still throwing only, no swings yet;

▪️ Ryan Burr pitchin for triple-A Buffalo tomorrow;

▪️ Alan Roden still day to day with swelling in right knee.
uglyone - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#462010) #
speaking of Shannon Stewart, he struck me a while ago as a decent potential comp for Clase.
Magpie - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 04:51 PM EDT (#462011) #
Not going to do the math, but 100 million in attendance? That, or positive run differential for the franchise.

Can confirm that the franchise is well past 100 million, and despite the overall losing record (but just 20 games or so below .500) does have a positive run differential.
Glevin - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#462012) #
And considering the plethora of cheap and fungible potentially league average or above options in Roden, Lukes, Robertson, etc the Jays have there with a crunch for 26-man slots, it probably only makes sense to spend prospect capital on a LF upgrade if you are truly acquiring a 120-130 wRC+ bat."

Absolutely. Robert doesn't make sense. I can see trading for a lefty masher seperately but Robert isn't that either. LF has been bad but also has a lot of depth and upside. Jays offense VS RHP will get better if they ever stop playing Clement every single game which you'd think Varsho and Santander back would force them to but Schneider hasn't sat him once in weeks so who knows. By far biggest need is frontline starter.
knuckeler - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#462013) #
"On the Cubs broadcast right now they are talking about how important power is in the playoffs."

I would totally agree with them, it seems painfully obvious to me if you want a good year all you have to do is hit Homeruns.

It doesn't matter if you hit only .220 or strike out more than once a game if you look at all the successful teams they hit Homeruns.
What has been killing the Blue Jays all year? Homeruns

They have been winning more lately despite mediocre pitching and why is that? Homeruns

When the Jays were good that was with Bautista and Encarnacion hitting Homeruns

Yankees were great till recently this year but what was carrying them? Homeruns

TB seems to always have the Blue jays number usually because of timely homeruns.

The last 3 world series winners, (LA, Texas and Houston), all finished in the top 4 in their respective playoff runs.

It's pretty obvious homeruns carry the day when up against good pitching and it gets difficult to string hits together all you need is a walk and or ( as Buck used to say), a bloop and a blast to win the game.

That's why I was saying earlier in the year we needed more homeruns despite winning some ball games without them.

It's very clear to me it's easier to build a winning team around homeruns than with out.


hypobole - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#462014) #
I was going to give the answer earlier, but thought, no, I'll wait for Magpie.

About 25 years ago, Shannon Stewart entered the Jays all time leaderboard, and climbed the ranks. Over the years he's been slowly getting bumped down and now sits at 24th of 24 with 18.7 career WAR as a Blue Jay.

Bo is entering this weekend with 1.2 WAR on the season and 18.6 career. A red hot weekend might do it, but barring anything catastrophic, Bo should finally bump Shannon off that final spot on the team page in fairly short order.
uglyone - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#462016) #
ah I finally found the multi-splits tool on fangraphs again.


June vRHP

SS Bichette 49pa 41wrc+
RF Barger 45pa 178wrc+
1B Guerrero 45pa 149wrc+
C Kirk 43pa 247wrc+
DH Springer 41pa 126wrc+
3B Clement 42pa 76wrc+
2B Gimenez 37pa 148wrc+
CF Clase 32pa 67wrc+
LF Lukes 19pa 48wrc+

UT Roden 17pa 102wrc+
OF Straw 9pa -100wrc+
IF Schneider 8pa 4wrc+
C Heineman 10pa 152wrc+

UT Robertson 10pa -18wrc+


June vLHP

SS Bichette 23pa 210wrc+
3B Barger 13pa 94wrc+
1B Guerrero 21pa 163wrc+
C Kirk 21pa 43wrc+
DH Springer 22pa -42wrc+
2B Clement 22pa 239wrc+
LF Schneider 20pa 128wrc+
CF Straw 18pa 70wrc+
RF Clase 12pa -37wrc+

UT Robertson 2pa 194wrc+
OF Roden 2pa 194wrc+
IF Gimenez 9pa -64wrc+
C Heineman 9pa 290wrc+
pooks137 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#462018) #
Bowden Francis had a cortisone shot in right shoulder earlier this week. No throwing 3-4 days more;

This update gives me more confidence that Francis' shoulder impingement reports of 2-3 weeks of pitching through shoulder discomfort was real and not just a phantom IL cover story after this disastrous 4th inning in his last start giving 5 free passes on BBs and HBPs.

While cortisone shots to joints are pretty bog standard in both the pro sports and civilian world, I don't think the Jays would go so far to do a sham one, unless the entire procedure was an outright lie.

IIRC, it was Staph infection and a septic joint from a simple cortisone shot that effectively ended Jesse Litsch's career many years ago.

pooks137 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#462019) #
Litsch suffered a setback with his injured right shoulder early in 2012 training camp, and was shut down because of inflammation. He visited surgeon Dr. James Andrews for a full diagnosis that confirmed the inflammation and didn't find any structural damage. Litsch received a platelet-rich plasmas (PRP) injection to help with the healing process. The injection caused an unexpected serious infection, and Litsch was not allowed to throw for six weeks after undergoing emergency surgery. The infection sidelined him for the entire 2012 season. Wikipedia

Looks like I saw mistaken about Litsch's shoulder infection, but a PRP injection is close enough.

SK in NJ - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#462020) #
Clement is not sitting until Santander comes back, and even then he probably won’t. I think John Schneider has broken me. I’m tapping out. Clement is playing everyday for the rest of the season regardless of split or type of pitcher. Acceptance will free me.
pooks137 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 05:34 PM EDT (#462021) #
vs LHP Schneider (26): 175pa, 60wrc+

It's still only about a third to half a full season's worth of PAs, but it really makes one wonder why Davis Schneider is still on the team starting against LHP besides the fact that he seems to be the only RHH AAA OF this side of Jonatan Clase.

BlueJayWay - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#462023) #
The White Sox have gone 4-20 in one-run games
I noticed that earlier today. I don't know what's crazier: that record, or the fact they've played 24 one run games already
BlueJayWay - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 06:00 PM EDT (#462024) #
Actually just looked it up and the Jays themselves have played 21 of those, so maybe it's not as crazy as that. But that record sure is.
Magpie - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#462026) #
I don't know what's crazier: that [4-20] record, or the fact they've played 24 one run games already

It's the record. Historically, roughly 30% of all games are decided by one run, so we would expect everyone to have played about 22 of them by now.

But the White Sox are playing .167 ball in one-run games, and no team in Recorded History has been worse. Only one team in history has also been below .200 in one-run games. The 1935 Boston Braves - (holy crap, I mentioned them already!) - went 7-31 (.184) in one-run games.

The normal effect of one-run games is to pull everyone towards .500 - we would expect a team of the quality of the White Sox to go about 10-14 in one-run games.
Magpie - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 06:26 PM EDT (#462028) #
Some odd facts about one-run games:

Most played, single season: 75 (1971 Houston Astros.
Most wins: 42 (1978 San Francisco Giants)
Most Losses: 44 (1968 Chicago White Sox)
Best winning percentage: 766 (2016 Texas Rangers, went 36-11)
Worst winning percentage: .184 (1935 Boston Braves, went 7-31)
dalimon5 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#462029) #
I'd prefer this FO wait for someone like Josh Naylor to become available who can DH while Santander goes to the OF and Barger to 3B. Probably easier to resign him as well.
uglyone - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 06:43 PM EDT (#462030) #
of all the complaints about this team, I gotta say the complaints about playing top-30 WAR player in the league (both on the year total and in June only) Ernie Clement are the funniest to me.
greenfrog - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#462032) #
Great catch by Lukes in LF running back towards the wall.
uglyone - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 07:20 PM EDT (#462033) #
just a bit of colour on why some guys are more worth investing franchise money in than others.

It was good to see Vladimir Guerrero Jr. out to catch the ceremonial first pitch tonight on the #BlueJays' Pride Night from Melanie King Gavin, who was representing The 519.

That's typically a job for bottom-roster guys, so this was a good night to see the face of the franchise.

— Keegan Matheson (@KeeganMatheson) June 20, 2025
BlueJayWay - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 07:33 PM EDT (#462035) #
So Scherzer's back soon 
scottt - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#462036) #
Pretty brutal start so far.
Glevin - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 07:46 PM EDT (#462037) #
of all the complaints about this team, I gotta say the complaints about playing top-30 WAR player in the league (both on the year total and in June only) Ernie Clement are the funniest to me."

Reason #500 why WAR isn't a great stat on its own. He's objectively one of the worst hitters in baseball against RHP and shouldn't be playing against them every day. It doesn't matter how great he's been against LHP, it doesn't mean he should play against righties.

Clase should be in minors once Varsho is back. He has a lot of skills but is still so raw and probably needs to play everyday to improve his skills. There's a lot to dream on but still a lot of work to do.
uglyone - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#462038) #
this fill in start was always going to be needed. but it woudl have been easier to take if we hadn't made Francis start his last time through.

the only difference to the other starters would have been Berrios going on 4 days rest instead of 5, Bassit going on 5 days rest instead of 6, Gausman going on 4 days rest instead of 5, and lauer going on 5 days rest instead of 6. Then Turnbull would have gone yesterday 6 days after his last outing, and Berrios would have gone today on 4 days rest.
uglyone - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 07:51 PM EDT (#462039) #
"He's objectively one of the worst hitters in baseball against RHP"

this is the first year that he's had any issues with RHP, and those issues were mostly confined to April.
92-93 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 07:51 PM EDT (#462040) #
Benintendi and Robert Jr. look pretty good tbh
92-93 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 07:56 PM EDT (#462041) #
So the difference would have been all 3 starters the team cares about getting less rest, and one of them twice?

Again - you don't need to agree with it, but you can at least understand why the team did it instead of beating the same horse repeatedly.
Gerry - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 08:00 PM EDT (#462042) #
This was not on my bingo card.
uglyone - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#462043) #
you say that as if it's at all normal or understandable for teams to force bad pitchers into their rotations in order to keep all their actual starters on 5 or 6 days rest.

greenfrog - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#462044) #
Varsho/Straw and Springer would have made those crucial missed outfield plays in centre and right field, I think.
92-93 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 08:04 PM EDT (#462045) #
I had a feeling this might happen when I logged into Sportsnet and it said "Watch as the Jays take on the lowly WhiteSox".
Glevin - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 08:13 PM EDT (#462046) #
this is the first year that he's had any issues with RHP, and those issues were mostly confined to April."

His career WRC+ against RHP is 79 which also means he shouldn't be playing everyday against RHP.
Marc Hulet - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 08:20 PM EDT (#462047) #
This is on management... Turnbull looked terrible in the minors and having no length in the pen to sop up that mess is just inexcusable. They completely thought the Sox would just roll over.

Hitters haven't shown up either.

Classic early 2025 Jays game.
uglyone - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 08:22 PM EDT (#462048) #
The pen is also extra burnt, of course, becasue they kept forcing Francis into the rotation instead of keeping the rotation on regular normal rest.
Glevin - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 08:26 PM EDT (#462049) #
Agree with Marc on this. It's just hoping for the best against all evidence . Turnbull was awful in the minors because his stuff was terrible. Maybe you bring him up because you have to, pitch him in some low leverage situations to see if you can get his fastball up but you can't just go "well, he's been awful but maybe today he won't be so let's start him."
Magpie - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 08:30 PM EDT (#462050) #
I had a feeling this might happen when I logged into Sportsnet and it said "Watch as the Jays take on the lowly WhiteSox".

I thought it was my fault for mocking them so mercilessly...
pooks137 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 08:32 PM EDT (#462051) #
There's some Schrodinger's swingman going on here because Spencer Turnbull the mop up man is the type that is needed to recover from the experience of Spencer Turnbull the starter.
scottt - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#462052) #
Berrios has made 32 starts every year. That is considered a full year.
The other 2 made 31 starts last year. That's better than the Yankees.
Rodon 32 starts, Cortes 30, Stroman 29, Gil 29.
It's just that the Jays are short one pitcher this year.

I won't ever bother looking because I know the other teams in the division haven't had guys they rolled out every 5 days over the full year.
Nigel - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 08:44 PM EDT (#462053) #
This was clearly on starting Clement v a RH:). (Just a joke - really). Clase has been really poor defensively since he’s been a Jay. He’d be low on my list of the numerous AAAA/MLB OFs in terms of future value.
scottt - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 08:44 PM EDT (#462054) #
Turnbull giving up 3 runs in 2 innings was bad but the disaster was Fluharty allowing 4 in the next frame.
He's on a bad roll, 4 of his last 5 outings were bad. Just 18 strikes on 35 pitches.
pooks137 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 09:00 PM EDT (#462055) #
John Schneider mentioned that Clase's speed made him stand out above all the other Buffalo boys OF candidates in the postgame press conference last night.

Clase obviously outranks Robertson currently as he was dispatched today.

Clase also has youth on his side, as he's 2-3 years younger than the Roden/Schneider/Loperfido guys.

It's unfortunate though that Clase is out of options in 2026, making youth and development not on his side pragmatically.
Nigel - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#462056) #
I understand all of that pooks, but Clase is the classic example of conflating physical tools that should translate into good defense and actual good defense. He does have time on his side but he shouldn’t be in Toronto right now. The Mariners reached the same conclusion.
pooks137 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 09:13 PM EDT (#462057) #
Clase's CF defense getting exposed tonight for sure.

He looks like I thought Springer would've filling in CF for a night with Straw & Clase down against a slugging DBacks team last series.
uglyone - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 09:31 PM EDT (#462058) #
Clase' speed still likely makes him a good corner OF defensively.

and so far his bat has been as good as any of his competition's - and they don't even get asked to play CF.
John Northey - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#462059) #
See Kyle Gibson opted out of his contract with the Rays - maybe dump Turnbull and sign Gibson. 4 AAA games for the Rays, 17 1/3 IP 12 H 1 R 6 BB 22 SO. Certainly a heck of a lot better than Turnbull. Yeah, he sucked for Baltimore but so has everyone this year (23 ERA+ over 12 1/3 IP). Eh, right now anything is worth a shot IMO.
greenfrog - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 09:38 PM EDT (#462060) #
Sure hope the Blue Jays don't miss the postseason by a game or two because of all these back-end rotation shenanigans. Although they were probably destined to lose this particular game if the offense was only going to produce one run.
Nigel - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#462061) #
Clase’s speed should make him a good defender in CF. Lack of speed is not the problem in CF. There is no reason to think he would be a better corner OF than CF. I agree that his bat hasn’t been materially worse than the other AAAA OF options.
Glevin - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#462062) #
Clase's speed is not issue. He gets bad jumps and takes bad routes. He's younger than the other AAA guys, but his minor league numbers show significantly less offensive ability than Roden or Robertson or Pinango or Schreck right now. Even this year where he had a 126 WRC+ it was due to a .438 BABIP. Would much rather be giving Roden abs as he's a much better prospect at this point. Clase needs to go down and play every day in CF and work on his D. If he can hack it at CF he has nice upside. If he can't play there, I don't think he's a regular major leaguer.
Nigel - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 09:57 PM EDT (#462063) #
Or what Glevin said:)
greenfrog - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 10:04 PM EDT (#462064) #
We’ve been spoiled watching Varsho and Straw cover CF this year. Watching Clase play the position has been a good reminder of this. Defense matters.
uglyone - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 11:21 PM EDT (#462067) #
Speed can make up for bad jumps and routes in a corner slot, compared to other slower corner OF. So far in his brief career Clase has positive defensive metrics in the corners.


as for how his bat compares so far


MLB

Clase (22-23): 156pa, .296babip, 79wrc+
Roden (25-25): 103pa, .243babip, 62wrc+
Robertson (27-27): 12pa, .333babip, 17wrc+
Pinango: n/a
Schreck: n/a

AAA

Roden (24-25): 368pa, .351babip, 152wrc+
Schreck (24-24): 32pa, .200babip, 137wrc+
Robertson (26-27): 655pa, .306babip, 114wrc+
Clase (22-23): 532pa, .356babip, 105wrc+
Pinango (23-23): 65pa, .209babipm, 99wrc+

AA

Schreck (23-24): 317pa, .295babip, 152wrc+
Roden (23-24): 453pa, .316babip, 140wrc+
Pinango (22-23): 544pa, .298babip, 107wrc+
Clase (21-21): 489pa, .294babip, 105wrc+
Robertson (24-25): 752pa, .283babip, 105wrc+

A+

Clase (21-21): 106pa, .423babip, 197wrc+
Roden (23-23): 323pa, .353babip, 153wrc+
Schreck (23-23): 344pa, .274babip, 140wrc+
Pinango (19-22): 1161pa, .295babip, 101wrc+
Robertson (23-23): 248pa, .329babipm, 94wrc+

A

Robertson (24-24): 14pa, .600babip, 415wrc+
Clase (20-20): 499pa, .358babip, 119wrc+
Roden (22-22): 115pa, .253babip, 106wrc+
Schreck (22-22): 102pa, .291babip, 102wrc+
Pinango (19-19): 351pa, .317babip, 96wrc+
vw_fan17 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 11:30 PM EDT (#462068) #
For some reason, watching Turnbull out there made me think of Jim Acker. Except with much worse results..
dalimon5 - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 11:35 PM EDT (#462069) #
Jays are 26-19 since May 1st. .588 win percentage this month with no 5th starter and no Santander. I bet they're close to a .600 pace after this weekend. They should lose at least 65 games this season which means there is at least another 40 or so losses to go and if the pitching ain't blowing it early they're blowing it late and if that ain't happening then it means they couldn't muster enough offense. When they lose it will feel like death by paper cuts.

ayjackson - Friday, June 20 2025 @ 11:58 PM EDT (#462070) #
I'm having a hard time warming to Lukes and Clase and I'm pretty sure it's because i can't buy into the apparent pronunciation of their names.
pooks137 - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 12:10 AM EDT (#462071) #
Gabriel Moreno sat out the series in Toronto with a hairline fracture in his right index finger that he'd been playing through for some time and was originally thought to just be bruised.

Sounds like something that could put him out for some time.
John Northey - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 12:54 AM EDT (#462072) #
For progression the Jays need a top flight starter, someone to grab LF, and more relief help in that order imo.

Top flight starter: very, very hard to get, and always expensive - Sandy Alcantara is the only one likely on the market due to his flopping this year early on (post recovery from surgery) but has had 3 solid starts in a row (5/6 IP, 2/0/2 runs 15 K vs 3 BB, 2 HR in 17 IP vs Colorado, Pittsburgh, and Philly) but the 11 starts before those 3 were not good, leading to a 6.88 ERA overall, but a 4.46 xFIP which is right around Lucas level. Nothing to write home about, but if he is finally getting healthy he'd be a potential ace. He'd be very expensive, but who knows? Better to risk more on that than to get more 'meh' guys or scrap heap guys.

LF: Lukes has hit the best (114 wRC+) but if everyone is healthy then odds are LF will be Santander's spot, with Springer flip flopping DH/RF and Barger in RF most of the time. Varsho in CF of course. So in that case Lukes/Straw fill the bench with maybe Schneider or one of the other kids there too (Clase/Roden/Robertson/whoever). Only see a trade happening if someone with a 130+ wRC+ someone is available at a price the Jays are willing to pay which is very unlikely.

Bullpen: There are always decent relievers available mid-season. Trick is finding one or two who will stay solid for the rest of the year in a setup role. Might not be needed if health is on the Jays side (Hoffman-Garcia-Rodriguez-Little-Fluharty-Sandlin-Fisher-Schultz-Green gives us 9 decent guys before factoring in guys like Lauer who could move to the pen).

This trading season will be a massive challenge for the Jays to get anything that moves the needle. Unless someone unexpected waves the white flag high end starters aren't out there on the market.
greenfrog - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 06:52 AM EDT (#462073) #
The Clement (3B) Santander (LF) Barger (RF) defensive configuration is acceptable, but not ideal. If Clement cools off with the bat, then maybe Barger will move back to third base.

It would if great if one of the young outfielders who can play defense, maybe Roden, would catch fire offensively and help carry the team. Having a good defensive outfield is important, as we learned last night.

In any event, it doesn’t sound as though Santander is close to returning.
Glevin - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 08:17 AM EDT (#462074) #
For progression the Jays need a top flight starter, someone to grab LF, and more relief help in that order imo."

For me it's top flight starter.... Huge gap... VS LHP 3B/OF, and then maybe reliever if needed. I think Jays have enough talent in OF once Varsho is back. Would like to see Roden get a run of games again. (has a 111 WRC+ since being called up despite not playing much) but VS. LHP, Jays use Straw and Schneider neither of whom have great splits or are great hitters to begin with. Especially with how many great lefty starters are out there, would be great to get someone who mashed lefties. Bullpen seems fine now to me but if the Jays wanted to upgrade, bullpen matters a ton in playoffs.
Glevin - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 08:24 AM EDT (#462075) #
To followup on my bullpen thoughts. If Jays went and got say, Mason Miller (huge cost obviously) you'd be talking about a potential playoff bullpen of something like Miller, Hoffman, Little, Garcia, Rodriguez, Schultz, Fluharty, Sandlin, and Lauer. In that case, you have a super quick hook and go bullpen. The 2015 Royals (cursed be their name) kind of won on bullpen and defense with a lot of mediocre starters and Holland, Davis, Herrera, Mason being a shut down bullpen. Not saying it's the way I'd go but it is an option.
SK in NJ - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 10:06 AM EDT (#462078) #
“of all the complaints about this team, I gotta say the complaints about playing top-30 WAR player in the league (both on the year total and in June only) Ernie Clement are the funniest to me.“

As mentioned he doesn’t hit RHP well, but aside from that, the Jays have an internal 3B option who can hit and defend well enough, and are putting him in RF to accommodate Clement. That move also means one less OF spot available to play Roden (who two months ago was making management gush every time they talked about him) or anyone else who may develop into a good hitter against RHP. It’s a short sighted move by a lame duck manager and once Clement cools down it will likely hurt the team because this hot streak (where he’s still been below average against RHP) likely gave him enough rope to play a lot the rest of the way.

I’m not expecting this org to make smart development decisions based on their track record but look around the league at the 3B position. If you luck into the Barger situation but voluntarily choose to put that player in RF, then it’s an indictment on the org itself. As I said I don’t think this is the short term configuration. Even when everyone is back in fully expect Clement starting at 3B. If I’m wrong, and this is short term until Santander comes back, then I’ll admit to overreacting but I don’t think I’ll be proven wrong here.
pooks137 - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#462079) #
Straw starting in CF and batting 9th.

So either his ankle is healed or John Schneider just couldn't bear another inning of Jonatan Clase.

Apparently Barger is a late scratch with a sore hip.
scottt - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#462080) #
Clase is a Spanish word. In English his name would be Class. There's never anything weird with Spanish pronunciation.
The rules are straight forward and exceptions are very rare.
Consider the apparent pronunciation of the word "people". 
An other example I encounter often is people writing "kludge" for something that's supposed to sound like "huge", not "fudge".
scottt - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#462081) #
There's always a tradeoff between developing new players and wanting an established player who will never age at every spot.

Varsho and Straw are very good.
Is Clase worst than slower players with better reads and jumps?
It's not obvious.
dalimon5 - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 01:33 PM EDT (#462082) #
A ghost has been recalled to Wrigley field on his 9th life. Very good numbers in his last stint in the minors.
uglyone - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#462083) #
2yr Splits


vs RHP

1. SS Bichette 539pa, 100wrc+
2. 3B Barger 345pa, 107wrc+
3. 1B Guerrero 811pa, 151wrc+
4. RF Santander 644pa, 116wrc+
5. C Alejandro 466pa, 107wrc+
6. DH Springer 671pa, 109wrc+
7. CF Varsho 490pa, 99wrc+
8. 2B Gimenez 597pa, 92wrc+
9. LF Lukes 210pa, 128wrc+

B. UT Jimenez 149pa, 87wrc+
B. OF Straw 73pa, 58wrc+
B. IF Clement 478pa, 86wrc+
B. C Heineman 54pa, 103wrc+

B. UT Schneider 328pa, 90wrc+
B. OF Clase 109pa, 97wrc+
B. IF Wagner 126pa, 96wrc+
B. C Bethancourt 96pa, 54wrc+

B. OF Roden 90pa, 65wrc+
B. OF Loperfido 212pa, 79wrc+
B. IF Stefanic 100pa, 51wrc+
B. C Sanchez 75pa, 15wrc+


Vs LHP

1. SS Bichette 136pa, 60wrc+
2. 2B Jimenez 61pa, 138wrc+
3. 1B Guerrero 212pa, 170wrc+
4. RF Santander 230pa, 106wrc+
5. C Alejandro 163pa, 104wrc+
6. DH Springer 218pa, 87wrc+
7. CF Varsho 123pa, 104wrc+
8. 3B Clement 227pa, 129wrc+
9. LF Straw 62pa, 99wrc+

B. UT Barger 70pa, 57wrc+
B. OF Lukes 28pa, 65wrc+
B. IF Gimenez 229pa, 51wrc+
B. C Heineman 35pa, 231wrc+

B. UT Schneider 175pa, 60wrc+
B. OF Clase 50pa, 28wrc+
B. IF Wagner 28pa, 79wrc+
B. C Bethancourt 51pa, 88wrc+

B. OF Loperfido 50pa, 55wrc+
B. OF Roden 13pa, 42wrc+
B. UT Stefanic 49pa, 77wrc+
B. C Sanchez 32pa, 5wrc+
Nigel - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#462084) #
That Cubs news continues an odd sequence of Jays relatedness. Pearson being brought up today at the expense of DFA’ing Genesis Cabrera who in turn was signed by the Cubs when Merryweather was DFA’d. I assume Urena will ultimately replace Pearson.
92-93 - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#462085) #
I was just in the car listening to MLB XM and Suzyn Waldman was on the Yanks broadcast talking about Trent Grisham. He hit a HR in the 1st and she was saying how big most of hits are, that he isn't hitting bombs in 7-1 games. So I look up his WPA and it's a healthy 1.73, 2nd on the team to Judge and 6th in the American League.

Ernie Clement's -0.96 WPA is the lowest on the active roster, second to Santander. Hopefully he won't catch him. Guerrero (1.57), Bichette (1.50), and Kirk (1.19) lead the team.
dalimon5 - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#462086) #
Dude, Grisham is hitting in front of Judge at the top of the line up. Clement has been batting bottom 3rd of the line up. Comparison automatically thrown out.
Marc Hulet - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#462087) #
I would also argue hitting in front of Judge is at least 75% responsible for Grisham's numbers. Hes probably seeing a lot more fastballs now. Being in his FA year is also probably helping.
Nigel - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#462088) #
Grisham also looks to have bulked up this year.
Glevin - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#462089) #
Jays smacking everything. Even the outs are line outs. Nice bounce back for the offense.

I don't buy protection makes you good. If Grisham were same hitter as last year, pitchers would get him out. Anyway, isn't there more incentive to get him out with Judge behind him? He just adjusted some stuff.
scottt - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#462090) #
If "getting hitters out" was a thing, they'd use it on Judge.

The protection--in this case--is that they don't want to walk him.
So, the theory is that he's getting fastballs in fastball counts.
He's walking at the highest clip of his career, so I really don't know if that's the case.
He's average EV is about 2 mph over his career number and he's been better on the road than at home.


92-93 - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#462091) #
It's a cute theory, but one easily debunked by just looking at the numbers - Grisham is seeing much less fastballs (9%) this year than he did last year. Hitting in front of Judge has nothing to do with his WPA, if you understand what the stat is telling you.

Excellent start by Berrios. Schneider couldn't have drawn this game up any better, provided Rodriguez can handle the 9th smoothly.
dalimon5 - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#462092) #
Isn't the win probability higher if he walks in front of Judge vs walking in front of a lesser hitter?

AA also doesn't he have more AB's and opportunities to change the expected outcome by virtue of coming up to bat more than Clement would?
92-93 - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#462093) #
There was never a comparison made between the two players, just statements of fact. Clement's bat is not helping the Jays win games as much as people think it has been this year. It has no predictive value, it just is what is thus far.
Glevin - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#462094) #
Great bounceback win. Win the series tomorrow! What's amazing is Jays are doing a lot of this without a bunch of their best players.
92-93 - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#462095) #
Even better that Green could handle the 9th, keeping Rordiguez available for high leverage tomorrow. The importance of add-on runs.
dalimon5 - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#462096) #
Well the statement of facts are not as relevant as the argument imposes. Heineman projects to have better value over a full season than Kirk. That's a statement of fact as well but I'm not comparing the players.

If you want to argue Clement is bad you don't need to make it seem like there is factual evidence that puts that claim to rest. We can all see any published numbers and I'm sure it's not difficult to make an argument than any player is great or terrible at something according to the most relevant stat supporting that opinion.
Nigel - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#462097) #
Clement isn’t clutch. Clement can’t hit RH’s. Clement isn’t nearly as good as WAR makes him out to be. Even if all those things are true to a degree, he’s the oddest whipping boy the Box has ever had.
Nigel - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 07:00 PM EDT (#462098) #
I thought Green’s stuff looked noticeably better the last two games. Maybe a touch less toasty.
Glevin - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 07:00 PM EDT (#462099) #
He's not a whipping boy. He's a good player and very useful for the team. He just shouldn't be playing everyday against RHP. That's it!
greenfrog - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 08:02 PM EDT (#462101) #
Well, people have been saying things like, the more I see of Clement, the less I want to see of him. Which is an odd thing to say about a player who is hitting .300/.331/.417 and playing strong infield defense at multiple positions — all for the very low (by MLB standards) salary of $1.97m.

As fans, we should be thanking our lucky stars that the Blue Jays have Clement. I don’t think it’s purely a coincidence that the team started to turn its season around when Clement started to heat up.
dalimon5 - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#462102) #
Like I heard on a podcast, this team needed Vlad, Bo and Santander to turn in very strong seasons in order to compete or for the rest of the line up to perform like crazy. The three of them have less HRs than Kyle Schwarber or at least they did when I listened to the podcast this week. Miraculously, the second option (whereby most of the non-stars of the team perform) is what we've seen so far.
Nigel - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#462103) #
If Clement isn’t a whipping boy, I can’t wait to see the posts when he’s actually hitting less than 130 wRC+ per month.
SK in NJ - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 10:41 PM EDT (#462104) #
Clement vs RHP (not including today's game)

Season: 53 wRC+
Since May: 79 wRC+
Since June: 71 wRC+ 

Whipping boy is a little strong. It's not Clement's fault that the manager is in love with him and doesn't know how to use him optimally. He should be starting against LHP and situationally against RHP. Instead, he's playing everyday regardless of matchup and not only forcing Barger into an OF role but also taking an OF spot away from someone like Roden who might actually be an improvement against RHP if given a chance.

I've said before, Clement is an ideal utility IF. He's actually perfect in that role given his defensive ability. The Jays just aren't using him in a way that is going to maximize his talent, and I think when the sample size increases, that will become more apparent. I don't think anyone is complaining about Clement in general. He's been a very good player for this team.
dalimon5 - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#462105) #
Maybe they are showcasing him as a full time player to be a part of a package throw in.
greenfrog - Saturday, June 21 2025 @ 11:18 PM EDT (#462106) #
Clement has a 230 wRC+ against LHP this season. That can’t last. He has a .422 BABIP against LHP this season.

It’s hard to know the optimal amount of playing time to give him going forward. Schneider could bench him against some RHP and use Roden instead on those days (with Barger playing 3B). That makes some sense. But maybe Clement is playing well overall because he’s playing a lot. What if you bench him, Roden doesn’t get untracked, and now Clement is cold because he isn’t getting enough playing time?

Schneider had shown that he likes to ride the hot hand, for better and worse. Clement in May/June has been example of “better,” as he’s stayed hot for a month and a half. For an example of worse, look at how long Schneider kept starting Merrifield during the 2023 season after his hitting streak was over. In Schneider’s mind, he was still the hot-hitting Merrifield — or potentially hot-hitting Merrifield — even into the postseason.
John Northey - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 12:50 AM EDT (#462107) #
The Roden love I just don't get - I want to see what he does with regular playing time, but he didn't do anything with it earlier on. April-May he hit 178/262/260 with just 1 HR in 84 PA - that isn't just bad luck, that sucks royally by any measure. In June (21 days) he has played in 11 of 17 games (just 5 starts) and in 19 PA hit 313/368/375 which is a drastic improvement, just 1 double and a BABIP of 357. At this point it isn't Clement I'd bench to see what Roden can do, but Clase (14 games in June, 136/191/273 over 47 PA 2 BB 15 SO - very bad) should be the one benched. Straw hasn't impressed either in June (192/192/231 over 27 PA), nor had Lukes before today (238/304/238 in June over 23 PA).

Basically, the Jays have a lot of guys to bench before Clement to get Roden time - and Roden hasn't been knocking the door down to force the issue either (doing OK, but not WOW). During the time Varsho & Santander are IL'ed I'd look at Lukes in CF and Roden/Schneider in LF with Barger in RF and DH covered by Springer. Straw in CF vs LHP, Clase in AAA, get Robertson back if you must have a bench 6th OF (at 27 he is less likely to ever develop further vs 23 year old Clase) or Stefanic/Jimenez/whoever so we have another pure IF.

Clement hitting poorly vs RHP is a very minor issue overall. His defense is high end, he is slaughtering LHP and lifetime his spread R/L is 98 OPS points (very normal). Odds are extremely high he'll be closer to that 98 point spread than the current 650 point spread going forward, and closer to his lifetime 87 OPS+ than the current 108, which mixed with his defense is very valuable. For comparison, a past Jay RH 3B who had a limit on his ability was Garth Iorg (72 OPS+ lifetime, but key part of 85 playoff team - platooned a LOT). Now, do we want to make Barger flip flop RF/3B depending on LHP or RHP, or limit him to facing just RHP so he can stay at 3B? All to give more playing time to the gang of 'who' in the OF (Roden-Lukes-Clase-Schneider-Straw)? No thank you. I'd rather have gold glove defense with that weak bat at 3B vs RHP, and a killer arm in RF with a solid bat (859 OPS vs RHP, 700 vs LHP so far in 2025) then piece together LF/CF from the gang who can't win a position.

Now, once Varsho is back, and especially once Santander is also back then the crowding happens - Barger will be needing tons of time at 3B, Clement rotating around, LF to whoever survives (Lukes/Schneider current favorites to win with Straw a backup). RF will be ugly with Santander and Springer sharing it and DH. That is when if Clement is in there everyday especially vs RHP there is a problem. Today, non-issue with the weak OF.
Glevin - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 07:25 AM EDT (#462108) #
It's not very complicated. There are 176 hitters with at least 150 PAs against RHP this year. Clement has been 172nd best. He's also 5th on the team in plate appearances VS RHP. It's baffling.

John, the Roden love is not based on his April numbers. He was awful. It's based on the fact that he was amazing everywhere in the minors and that rookies very often have a lot of trouble adjusting and you need to give them some rope. They were right to send him down but the galling thing was him destroying AAA and then being called up and just never being played. Since he's been up, he's had a 111 WRC+ but only 19 PAs. Clase in that time has been given 47 PAs with a 28 WRC+. Will Robertson had 12 PAs and as only up for a few days. Lukes has been bad too (and is 31 next month) but he has a much better track record and Straw has been terrible but he is the only natural CF so I get it to some degree. Schneider has been good in this period but has been bad for a year and a half. It's not just playing one guy over a Roden that's so frustrating, it's playing everyone over him. Roden had the 4th highest WRC+ of any player in the International League with his number of PAs. How does that not by you some semi - regular playing time on a team that is struggling in LF?
uglyone - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 08:54 AM EDT (#462109) #
Clement as a Jay

761pa, 104wrc+, 4.3war650 (vRH 502pa/90wrc+, vLH 260pa/132wrc+)
uglyone - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 09:00 AM EDT (#462110) #
Clement is now in a tie for 26th most WAR in baseball, and has many fewer PAs than most of the guys ahead of him.
92-93 - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 11:10 AM EDT (#462111) #
What's his WAR/162 rank?
hypobole - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#462112) #
Where are player splits vs RHP by month?
dalimon5 - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 11:52 AM EDT (#462113) #
As mentioned by others the picking on Clement would be far easier if there was a clear upgrade right now.
92-93 - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#462114) #
Just enjoying some morning coffee and listening to the Allman Bros.

Sometimes I feel
Like I've been tied
To the whipping post

Clement has 18 RBI with 167 runners on base (83-52-32) in 257 PA. The MLB average for 257 PA is 28 RBI with 154 runners on base (77-51-25). There are only 2 players in baseball with as many PA and fewer RBI, and one of them has had 41 fewer baserunners.

Clement has 1 RBI in June. Will our 1B get one today?
greenfrog - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 12:07 PM EDT (#462115) #
Yarbrough is now on the IL with a strained oblique.

Other Yankees pitchers on the IL include Cole, Gil and Stroman.

The Blue Jays are only 3 GB of New York (TB is 1.5 GB and playing well). And the Yankees are down 2-0 to Baltimore in the early going today.
92-93 - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#462116) #
The Yankees have a brutal schedule in July, including 6 (+1 on 6/30) at the Dome. The softest part of their month is 3 at home vs. the 38-37 Mariners. Let's get Varsho back and have ourselves a race.
greenfrog - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 12:18 PM EDT (#462117) #
The Blue Jays should add aggressively at the deadline and make a run at the division title. They’re in a good position to go for it, which doesn’t happen every year. They should take full advantage.
John Northey - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 12:45 PM EDT (#462118) #
Agreed Greenfrog - if a #1/2 starter is available they need to find a way to get him. Same if a 130+ OPS+ OF is available. Much like 1993 those are the needs - it cost a solid pitching prospect for Rickey (turned out that same prospect could've got them Randy Johnson). This time who knows what the price will be.
dalimon5 - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 01:51 PM EDT (#462119) #
"The Blue Jays should add aggressively at the deadline and make a run at the division title. They’re in a good position to go for it, which doesn’t happen every year. They should take full advantage."

I was looking at the upcoming free agents and aside from Naylor who himself isn't an ideal fit for this team I am underwhelmed.
Hodgie - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#462120) #
Very cool that Bassitt had to strike out Teel 3 times in that AB for it to count.
92-93 - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#462121) #
Bassitt's stuff has looked incredible the last couple of starts. Let's get some better results today.
jerjapan - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#462122) #
Pretty good so far 92!

greenfrog - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#462123) #
Why was Bassitt pulled after 82 pitches?
greenfrog - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#462124) #
Roden power!
Mike Green - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#462125) #
Too bad that Jeff Ware was unable to join Jordan Leasure in the Sox pen. Suitable attire for a humidex of 45C is hard to find.
Eephus - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#462126) #
Come on, Hoffman. Brutal stuff.
Glevin - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#462127) #
Disaster. You can almost always tell when Hoffman is going to have a terrible outing because he just doesn't have control from the outset. Walking the first batter and you knew it was coming even if it took a fluke hit.
Eephus - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#462128) #
I’m far more irritated at the Benintendi bouncer that Hoffman bobbled.
dalimon5 - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 04:03 PM EDT (#462129) #
This manager either needs to improve bullpen management or needs 5 solid starters that don't burn his bullpen the way he wants to use it. One or the other and seeing how it seems impossible to change his usage I'm now hoping the FO adds "high end BP arm" to the equation for the trade additions.
92-93 - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#462130) #
Why was Yariel pulled after 10 pitches? Little hasn't been that good lately that you need to be eager to get to him.

Why did Gimenez just face a lefty with Schneider on the bench?
Eephus - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#462131) #
I get a sense sometimes Schneider treats his bullpen when they’re rested like an all-you-can-eat buffet: it’s as though he wants to sample a little bit of every dish being offered.

Hoffman will be okay long term (I think) but at the moment he’s such a wildcard I’d much prefer to see Yariel take away some of his late inning assignments.
Magpie - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#462132) #
Very irritating. Coming into this weekend, the White Sox had the worst road record (7-31) the game had seen in 80 years (the 1945 Athletics.)
The_Game - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#462133) #
There was no reason to pull Bassitt, Yariel or even Little when Schneider did in this one and it led to the loss.

But this team has been managing games without accounting for in-game context ever since Gibbons was pushed out by this FO. They could have 5 dominating SPs on the roster and they’d still pull them regularly too early because the analytics dictate it.
pooks137 - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#462134) #
Lots of complaining about the manager and the bullpen for an offense that out up 2 runs against the worst team in the AL.

Two days after doing the same with only 1 run Friday on a Sox bullpen day after being exhausted by a doubleheader.
BlueJayWay - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#462135) #
Schneider never lets a two out pitching change opportunity go to waste
Glevin - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#462136) #
Yeah, bullpen management wasn't great but Jays scored 2 runs and 1 run in two games at home against the White Sox which is pathetic.
Gerry - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#462137) #
The White Sox looked better than I expected. I am not sure if thats a compliment to the Sox or a damning of the Jays.
Magpie - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#462138) #
The bullpen was rested, and there's an off day tomorrow. Little's been your most effective reliever, Hoffman's your closer. I don't think it's on the manager. (Now, as for the hitters...)

The White Sox are definitely better than their woeful WL record. They're still bad.
Nigel - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#462139) #
I don’t think this was on the manager either but, while Little has been their best reliever for most of the year, he has actually been struggling the past 2 - 3 weeks and, after a solid April, Hoffman has been their poorest leverage reliever by a pretty wide margin. Rodriguez is their best leverage arm right now. After that it’s probably Fisher but the choices for the manager aren’t that obvious.
John Northey - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 07:10 PM EDT (#462140) #
No question games 1 and 3 were 100% on the offense. Scoring 3 runs in 2 games vs the White Sox is pathetic. Today the 2/3/4/5 hitters were 0-13 with 4 walks. In the 2 bad games Vlad & Barger (2/3) were 0-13 with 4 walks. That is unacceptable. But they are 2 of the better hitters on this team so you just have to live with it. Now, guys the manager has a choice on - LF/CF were 1-7 on Friday, 3 for 8 today, net 4-15 267 avg. with a double and a triple today. Can't fault the manager there, he seemed to pick the right guys for those 2 slots. Clement? 2 for 4 both games, clearly the right guy to have in there. Lukes in RF/Barger 3B/Clement 1B/Springer on bench didn't work so well today as Springer was 1-1 when brought in, Lukes 0-3 with a walk. But on the surface not a bad choice.

Looking at lineup choices and end results it is hard to fault Schneider. Maybe he should've kept Springer in at DH, Vlad 1B, Clement 3B, Barger RF and not played Lukes, but you need to give Vlad and Springer at least partial time off now and then and if you can't vs one of the weakest teams in MLB then when can you? Today was 100% on the offense, namely the 2-5 hitters who failed to do anything much. Also a bit on Hoffman for forgetting how to field.
electric carrot - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#462141) #
If Hoffman picks up that roller and chucks it to first that's a Jays win. It happens. Next series.

uglyone - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 08:08 PM EDT (#462142) #
With Scherzer about to be activated, it really should be Turnbull dropped to make room. Lauer clearly deserves to be the 5th starter at the moment, and Schultz definitely deserves to stay up.
vw_fan17 - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#462145) #
Hoffman is totally giving me Swanson vibes these days - as soon as I see him come in, it feels like we're giving up... At this point, I dread seeing him warm up in the pen. 
John Northey - Sunday, June 22 2025 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#462146) #
uglyone - I agree, Turnbull was a nice try, but failed. Unless there is something we can't see there he should be dropped. I expect Shultz will get the short stick though. Sigh.
Dr B - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 12:45 AM EDT (#462147) #
Turnbull was a nice try, but failed. Unless there is something we can't see there he should be dropped.

We can see the rest of his career. Which do you put more weight on: the more than 350 IP in his (pretty decent) career or the 6 he's pitched for the Jays. I'm not saying he _is_ going to succeed, and his contract status probably means they have pushed him too early, but I don't mind giving him a fair shake to see what he can (or cannot) do.

> I expect Shultz will get the short stick though.

And why not? He's got options which is probably his main value.
dalimon5 - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 09:22 AM EDT (#462151) #
We know this offense ghosts periodically and that's why it's more critical to not make bullpen mistakes the few times that the weak offense still gives you a lead in the 8th or 9th.
electric carrot - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 10:06 AM EDT (#462153) #
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I wish those who don't agree with bullpen management would write their comments more often as the pitching change is or isn't happening during the game and before the results are known.
uglyone - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#462154) #
Plausible Best Lineup using....

(deferring only to slotting Vladdy in the 3-hole).

(asterisk = platoon only)


...This Year's Stats Only:

1. DH Springer 280pa, .349obp, 126wrc+
2. RF Barger 195pa, .328obp, 127wrc+
3. 1B Guerrero 334pa, .383obp, 135wrc+
4. C Alejandro 251pa, .347obp, 120wrc+
5. SS Bichette 349pa, .321obp, 115wrc+
6. 3B Clement 261pa, .337obp, 115wrc+
7. CF Varsho 100pa, .249obp, 106wrc+
8. LF Lukes* 155pa, .358obp, 113wrc+
9. 2B Gimenez 201pa, .280obp, 67wrc+

B. UT Santander 209pa, .273obp, 65wrc+
B. OF Straw* 139pa, .291obp, 78wrc+
B. IF Schneider 53pa, .358obp, 98wrc+
B. C Heineman 73pa, .417obp, 175wrc+

X. OF Roden 106pa, .283obp, 67wrc+
X. OF Clase 93pa, .272obp, 66wrc+
X. OF Robertson 12pa, .250obp, 17wrc+
X. IF Wagner 68pa, .284obp, 50wrc+
X. IF Stefanic 25pa, .280obp, 40wrc+
X. C Sanchez 11pa, .182obp, 19wrc+



....Past 1 Calendar Year Stats:

1. DH Springer 612pa, .333obp, 122wrc+
2. 3B Barger 382pa, .292obp, 103wrc+
3. 1B Guerrero 704pa, .403obp, 169wrc+
4. C Alejandro 501pa, .343obp, 115wrc+
5. RF Santander 573pa, .295obp, 104wrc+
6. SS Bichette 409pa, .308obp, 103wrc+
7. CF Varsho 347pa, .277obp, 96wrc+
8. 2B Clement 577pa, .305obp, 101wrc+
9. LF Lukes* 246pa, .363obp, 120wrc+

B. OF Clase 124pa, .309obp, 91wrc+
B. OF Straw* 143pa, .290obp, 77wrc+
B. IF Gimenez 535pa, .288obp, 73wrc+
B. C Heineman 87pa, .395obp, 152wrc+

X. UT Wagner 154pa, .314obp, 92wrc+
X. OF Roden 106pa, .283obp, 67wrc+
X. IF Jimenez 210pa, .329obp, 102wrc+
X. C Bethancourt 59pa, .305obp, 126wrc+

X. UT Schneider 260pa, .262obp, 53wrc+
X. OF Loperfido 215pa, .233obp, 54wrc+
X. IF Stefanic 120pa, .294obp, 57wrc+
X. C Sanchez 107pa, .208obp, 12wrc+




....Fangraphs Combined Rest of Season Projections:

1. SS Bichette 342pa, .327obp, 117wrc+
2. 3B Barger 272pa, .315obp, 107wrc+
3. 1B Guerrero 356pa, .374obp, 143wrc+
4. C Alejandro 260pa, .348obp, 117wrc+
5. RF Santander 239pa, .312obp, 113wrc+
6. DH Springer 323pa, .326obp, 109wrc+
7. CF Varsho 275pa, .292obp, 102wrc+
8. LF Lukes* 147pa, .341obp, 110wrc+
9. 2B Gimenez 327pa, .319obp, 101wrc+

B. UT Schneider 59pa, .323obp, 105wrc+
B. OF Roden 121pa, .337obp, 108wrc+
B. IF Clement 176pa, .312obp, 102wrc+
B. C Heineman 87pa, .324obp, 94wrc+

X. UT Wagner 26pa, .344obp, 109wrc+
X. OF Clase 129pa, .295obp, 86wrc+
X. IF Jimenez 7pa, .335obp, 107wrc+
X. C Bethancourt 0pa, .277obp, 91wrc+

X. UT Loperfido 4pa, .297obp, 92wrc+
X. OF Straw* 84pa, .302obp, 77wrc+
X. IF Stefanic 0pa, .356obp, 109wrc+
X. C Sanchez 3pa, .281obp, 75wrc+

Gerry - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#462159) #
Yimi Garcia is pitching in the FCL today.
vw_fan17 - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#462171) #
> I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I wish those who don't agree with bullpen management would write their comments more often as the pitching change is or isn't happening during the game and before the results are known.

Alas, I am 3 hours behind, so by the time I get home from work, the game is usually over. But even for weekend games, where it would be possible, I rarely watch live anymore - 20-30 minute quickwatch (i.e. skip from pitch to pitch, sometimes skip the opposition batting) is the preferred method these days. 3 hours to watch a game is just too much time - would eat up almost all my evening. Sure, for playoffs (if applicable), I'll try to watch the whole game live.
Glevin - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 05:57 PM EDT (#462176) #
Chris Black has a nice thread on Twitter about Hoffman and what changed and it really looks like his velocity dropped and his arm angle changed. The big drop in arm angle happened twice and both times very clearly due to pitching 4 times in 5 days. What's worrying to me is that even with rest the last couple of weeks, his stuff hasn't ticked back up. Really feels like the overuse by Schneider early in the year is costing him now.
dalimon5 - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#462178) #
tbh I also don't watch the games live much anymore. I use the SN+ app for free as a Bell subscriber on my Apple TV. I start the game at least 30 minutes late and fast forward commercials.
greenfrog - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#462179) #
Is it a coincidence that after a lot of heavy usage this season, Hoffman turned into a bad reliever, Yimi ended up on the IL with a shoulder issue requiring a cortisone shot, and Fluharty has started struggling (7 ER in his last 6 outings)?

Also, I'm not sure we can put Gausman's 53-pitch inning in Yankee Stadium in the same category, but he's been pretty bad lately, too (17 ER allowed in his last four starts totalling 20 innings). Although he had some good (and bad) starts before his very recent bad stretch and after the Yankee Stadium one.
Glevin - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 07:09 PM EDT (#462180) #
What's so odd to me is that the Jays baby their starters whenever they can. Extra days off, taking them out at 80 pitches, etc... But relievers are like (sure, you've pitched 3/4 days and are clearly gassed but go out and pitch in this 5-run lead anyway.
dalimon5 - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 07:15 PM EDT (#462181) #
Yeah I think it's an indictement of the manager. I assume that the FO predetermines limits of the starters while they leave the bullpen to the manager. They may not say "X starter has to be pulled after 80 pitches today" but they likely say "Pitcher X is at 520 pitches for the month and has a max of 600 this month."

For the record Bassitt was actually pulled yesterday by himself due to allergies that affected his visibility.
uglyone - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 08:29 PM EDT (#462183) #
babying the starters leads directly to abusing the relievers, too.
Nigel - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 08:51 PM EDT (#462185) #
I’m probably more forgiving than most on bullpen management (in general) and this year. This hasn’t been a cookie cutter bullpen to manage. I don’t think Schneider has been terrible and likely closer to average. Having said that, the one criticism I have had on multiple occasions is the use of the highest leverage arms in fairly safe leads (3-4 runs). Most of those decisions have been made by the book (where other managers would do the same) but when your offence wasn’t scoring (hence more close games) and they’ve had two “bullpen games” for decent stretches of the season there was a need to be more selective on the usage of the high leverage arms. I do think overuse has been a factor for Fluharty, Little and the Proven Closer.
Gerry - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 09:30 PM EDT (#462186) #
Erik Swanson cleared waivers and was released.
Cracka - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#462187) #
Dicky Lovelady was signed to the Mets active roster after changing his first name. Not a joke...
greenfrog - Monday, June 23 2025 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#462188) #
A Yankees loss always makes a Blue Jays off-day more tolerable.

Toronto is now 3.5 games back in the AL East (3 back in the loss column). Still in WC position. Tomorrow is a new day.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 24 2025 @ 07:27 AM EDT (#462189) #
Schneider admits that the team should have IL'd Santander earlier (per Sportsnet):

Speaking to the media over the weekend, Blue Jays manager John Schneider acknowledged that Anthony Santander’s left shoulder injury isn’t healing as quickly as the team anticipated.

“It hasn't come back on an MRI or a test where it's like, ‘Hey, this was five times worse than what we initially thought,’” Schneider said. “He was probably playing through a little bit more than what he should have at the time. I thought he'd be a little bit further along for sure by now.”
92-93 - Tuesday, June 24 2025 @ 10:30 AM EDT (#462192) #
Apparently Bassitt was pulled "early" because he was sick (allergies?).

Looks like the Jays are rolling the rotation schedule I outlined in the last thread, with one change - they have Scherzer ahead of Gausman. I assumed Gausman would go tomorrow, but instead of having him go on 5 days rest he'll be going on 6 days rest.
Gerry - Tuesday, June 24 2025 @ 11:00 AM EDT (#462193) #
You might have forgotten, I did, that the Jays signed Amir Garrett back in February. He has not played a game for the Jays yet but he has been assigned to the FCL Jays for todays game.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 24 2025 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#462194) #
"Looks like the Jays are rolling the rotation schedule I outlined in the last thread"

Jun24: Lauer 5
Jun25: Scherzer 6
Jun26: Gausman 6
Jun27: Berrios 5
Jun28: Bassitt 5
Jun29: Lauer 4
Jun30: Scherzer 4
Jul01: Gausman 4
Jul02: Berrios 4
Jul03: Bassitt 4
Jul04: Lauer 4
Jul05: Scherzer 4
Jul06: Gausman 4
Jul07: Berrios 4
Jul08: Bassitt 4
Jul09: Lauer 4
Jul10: offday
Jul11: Scherzer 5
Jul12: Gausman 5
Jul13: Berrios 5

Lotsa 4s
Mike Green - Tuesday, June 24 2025 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#462195) #
There is merit to having a spot start for someone from triple A on July 4. That way it would be once through the regular rotation on 4 days rest and once through on 5 days rest. The plus from my perspective would be stretching Lauer out to 6 innings but making sure that he doesn't bear the burden of the long streak of games without rest. Bullpen reinforcements will also be needed.
92-93 - Tuesday, June 24 2025 @ 11:44 AM EDT (#462197) #
My outline didn't go that far, and removed the 4s yours had this week. We shall see if they are comfortable rolling with 5 starters for the entire 16-game stretch. A spot-start/bullpen day would hardly be surprising, based on what the coaches keep saying.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, June 24 2025 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#462198) #
Or this FO could just promote Yesavage like they did Manoah and have a rotation of Berrios, Bassitt, Scherzer, Yesavage and Gausman with Lauer as a true long man and Turnbull as mop up. Then rest of bullpen would be Hoffman, Fluharty, Green, Rodriguez and Little. If Turnbull doesn't improve after e 3 more appearances then drop him for Fischer and then bring up Garcia to replace whomever is performing worst.
Jonny German - Tuesday, June 24 2025 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#462200) #
No chance Yesavage is up in July. Macko is already on the 40-man and already pitching in Buffalo.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 24 2025 @ 12:52 PM EDT (#462201) #
my sked had skipping Lauer this time through, having Scherzer 5 / Gausman 5 / Berrios 4 / Bassitt 4 and effectively needing one fewer start from the Lauer slot before the break, while still keeping every pitcher on 4 or 5 days rest each time through.bWe're in trouble if we consistently need to give multiple starters 6 days of rest I think.

Starting Lauer tonight gets one extra day of rest this time through for the other 4, at the cost of needing an extra start from the Lauer slot before the break. But I like Lauer so I hope he can keep up his current level so hopefully it works out fine.

and yeah we'll see if they actually try to keep up this 6-man rotation nonsense any longer, true enough. But they certainly didn't build this team to have an effective 6 man rotation, that's for sure.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, June 24 2025 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#462202) #
Corbin Carroll fractured his wrist against the Blue Jays. Another injury to a team that is quickly falling behind in the race and could be the key team to affect the deadline buyers should they decide to sell. 7.5 games back from the Dodgers and 3 Wins back from the last wild card.

Zac Gallen, Eugenio Suarez, Hosh Naylor and Merril Kelly are all soon to be free agents

dalimon5 - Tuesday, June 24 2025 @ 01:08 PM EDT (#462203) #
"No chance Yesavage is up in July. Macko is already on the 40-man and already pitching in Buffalo."

If you can guarantee that one of Manoah and Macko comes up and succeeds and that none of Berrios, Gausman, Bassitt or Scherzer get injured then yes, there is little chance for Yesavage to come up.
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